Br Muhammad MFG | Quranist Only Belief - A Dialogue | MindTrap #82 - Mufti Abu Layth

[Music] [Music] folks. Right.

for Right. I'm just Right.

I'm just sharing out the link. I'd just like to let me share this out with brother Muhammad. Whilst many of you are tuning in, clicking like like express some love. Amen. Amen. And right so I'm just writing this out here as well.

Right. Bismillah. I just want to before we start express um first of all shukar gratitude and do want to highlight that uh brother Muhammad has um has been waiting patiently I have been delayed um but we were looking to have a I did explain to brother Muhammad I may be slightly delayed and that's why Friday works as a good safe bet because if you're from America then, you know,

it's very early evening in America, very relaxed and not much on. And this is why the mind traps really work so well with uh our Atlantic friends from over the pond cuz you know when it's like 2 here it's just like 78 over the in the evening and I did get back did have some commitments but we did have um you know a few hours lined up for a discussion So I did share it with brother Muhammad

who did say look he you know he said let me just check that hopefully he can still join us because there should be plenty of time really even if it's to jump on and steal man his argument for the Quran only perspective and whilst he inshallah gets ready and hopefully joins

I did get a message from him saying look well he may not want to do this now because it's uh gone over on his time but I I mean I do apologize for that. I do have other commitments and I did explain that I have commitments but uh you know if we'd set aside let's say two three hours for a discussion we're still within that two three hour time frame.

So even if he comes on for like half an hour has a conversation 1 hour steel man's his case that would be uh awesome. I did highlight that we I did uh have another mind trap today lined up with sheh uh from Australia which I did postpone to really have this conversation with uh brother Muhammad MFG.

Whilst hopefully uh we're setting that up and awaiting that to begin, I'd like to preface what this has been about. Right. So, let me just switch on so I can see the comments right now.

Last um I just one moment. I'm going to see if I can silence a bit of the the PC has a has an internal fan. There you go. Right. So, um I on my last meetup I had a guest, brother Muhammad.

I'm just prefacing the discussion highlighting now. I'm not really familiar with uh MFG, Brother Muhammad of the Puranist movement. I've not really come across him before. If I have then, you know, maybe because I've been unaware of who he is, so I'm not uh that's not to any discredit to anyone, you know, I'm sure there's millions and billions of people I'm unaware of.

um if anything that's my own um you know little world microcosm that I'm in. So in any case uh brother Muhammad he joined when I shared the um when I shared the link to join the discussion he patiently waited uh you know in this waiting room that you get here and the discussion went on and I only came on to do an hour's discussion but he patiently I was there for over two hours he patiently waited so at the end I I didn't know who he was

but I just brought him on to say look I apologize and you know you've waited so patiently and I wanted to give you the courtesy of bringing you on the screen and and just saying that and you know if you want to say some words so he had mentioned and that's in my last discussion watching um he did mention that look uh oh mashallah getting ready he did mention that look uh a lot of my followers had really wanted me to have a discussion with you.

So that caught my attention. So I I I piqu my curiosity that followers okay um you know what is this about? So he highlighted that look he's from he's a member of the Quranist movement and so with that in mind you see here's where I'm at with with this discussion with this dialogue and this is what I would like today to you know to to to examine a case if that is to be made for

the Quranist movement by a Quranist. So I did my thoughts on this and I highlighted this last week is I feel that the Quranist movement is really it's you know it's a kind of reaction with a lot of rage a lot of anger almost and negativity and and and I'm not trying to villainize them by saying that I'm just explaining how it's

perceived in the eyes of the other. So in my eyes, this is how it's perceived. I'm not saying this to, you know, I don't want them to feel in any way, you know, take a negative interpretation from that. I'm expressing how I see it as this kind of rageful anger. And sometimes the anger is justified because people they take hadith and they misuse them.

And there's certain hadith which clearly are not correct and they are misused and they're used by Islamophobes and they used by people who hate on Islam and they love the fact that certain um hadith dogmatists really push these like the age of Aisha Aisha our mother in Islam was in her late teens anything between 17 to 20 when she married the prophet.

sallallahu alaihi wasallam. Now this hadith in Bkari I have lengthy discussions on explaining how that is inaccurate and wrong. Now things like this there are discussions on things like killing the apostate which I believe is a fabricated hadith and this decision of killing an apostate in Islam was really a political one because Muslims weren't the only people doing this.

All religions at that time in the world were doing this. They saw this as amounting to treason against the state and it was not something necessarily about the faith although some may have tried to argue that and you see this as some of the hanafia for example highlight that you don't there's no capital punishment for the female apostate because she's not a threat.

So things like this they show where hadith are being wrongly projected and people use all sorts you know they'll use hadith to justify marital rape they'll use hadith to justify uh abuse or misogyny or other things or sometimes just just other ideas and there is a and then in reaction to that see what I see is the Quranist movement It then cancels all hadith.

It says no hadith is acceptable. But then what do they mean by that? Sometimes when I've said that like brother Muhammad said and rightly so from his perspective he said you know Mui you are that's strawmaning our argument. So I said I would like to give you the opportunity to steal man your argument.

I I don't want to straw man anybody's argument and maybe I am misunderstanding it and that's fair enough and that's why this dialogue is important. I did highlight as well that there is a longstanding tradition in the middle. You know that the that there is a middle ground that the like Im Malik like Im Abu Hanifh took

that they distinguished between hadith and Sunnah that the sunnah is what we follow and the hadith attempts to document the sunnah. Sometimes it documents it, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it may be mistaken. and and some of uh these scholars have put forward conditions like we accept the hadith

that as long as it does not go against reason against the understanding as long as it does not clash with the Quran or the as in which is the living tradition as long as it does not uproot an Islamic principle. So these these guidelines are already there in Islam and so to and I accept that not all scholars follow them at all times. The application of these guidelines are disputed and I agree with that and may even be misused and I agree with that.

But to discard the sunnah of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam who is to Muslims the most beloved of creation is a disservice to I feel faith as a whole. Now I do want to highlight something very important.

All people who are arguing for an angle in Islam do so from a love from a passion. So even and I do feel in this case it is a misplaced misapplied love but it is a love that they do love the prophetshallah they do love Islamshallah they do love the that they give their lives dedicated to these things.

So what what I want us to do is rather than just bash people, you know, we get somebody who disagrees with us and we spread this hatred, this rage that we want to suppress that we try to listen and we open our hearts and minds and welcome them because like I said a lot of the times it is an anger, it is a rage and I um and it is only love, compassion a light that can overcome that.

You know, it won't work with trying to just say, "Let's corner people, debate them, hate on them, do all of these things." This is not the way. And I say this from my own experience. Uh last final few words that I feel historically I too uh may have carried some of that kind of um irritability that uh anger as well and you know um I do feel that I did carry some of that in in the previous years and and I suppose maybe age and the

stage of life that you know witnessing many things by just connecting guidance from teachers, from loved ones, my own trauma, witnessing my mom's cancer and her passing and and other things and including uh certain psychedelics, experiencing what is actual death in itself and then a lifetime in the presence of Allah.

that certain things they they make you feel life differently and and you feel people's pain and you feel their joy as well. May Allah bless each and all people. I'd like to welcome on to the stage uh virtual stage brother Muhammad Kena. Assalamu alaykum uh brother Muhammad MFG.

How are you doing? I hope you can hear us loud and clear. I'm just going to if you speak I'll just hopefully your volume's coming through fine as well. Bismillah peace be upon you. How you doing? My good uncle. >> Well, I'm well. Uh, Shukran. So, first of all, Muhammad, I'm really jaz that you've taken the time out. I do apologize once again for being delay.

I didn't mean to be discourteous. Um, I really was genuinely delayed and it's it's a it's unfortunately a theme in my life. But I really am glad that you've joined us. even if it's for whatever time you can take out to um present. I'd like us to inshallah you know not without you know so not to waste any more of your time because I know because of the delay really you know carrying on from where we spoke last week that I'd like you to you're probably listening into my where I stand with the Quranist perspective and I know there

are some diverse Quranist movements there's not just one monolith but this is you know where where I'm at with it. I would like you to steal man your argument considering the question I did ask before we concluded last week um that is this an argument from epistemology or is it an argument from principle because sometimes I've heard different differing responses from people so just to clarify for the listeners that an argument from epistemology

is and I'd like you to steal man it of course the whole thing is that we're saying sorry that people are saying not we're but people are saying that hadith hadith may be accepted is acceptable the teachings of the prophet are they very beloved to us but we just feel that because we're not sure that the way it was conveyed to us whether this teaching like this hadith one-on-one was actually a teaching of the prophet.

Therefore, to be on the safe side and to on the side of caution, we're not going to accept the hadith to on the side of caution. Otherwise, we welcome hadith and the teachings of the prophet and the sunnah. That's from epistemology. So, it's the knowing that it's the hadith is the challenge. From principle, the argument is no. The Quran is the only source of guidance.

No other guidance comes from anything not even the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam. So that's the from principle argument. But yeah over to you uh Muhammad >> peace uh but then I appreciate you giving me the um ability to steelman the position so that we can clarify what the misconceptions people have about our movement. Quite simply what we argue is that Islam started before prophet Muhammad and unfortunately become the word Islam became synonymous with Muhammad and after the blessed uh the time after the blessed prophet but the Islam that prophet Muhammad was teaching existed before his time and it's the

exact same Islam. Yes, the sh the the curriculum is different from a group to a group. If you're following a certain prophet and us pro following prophet Muhammad, we have been given sufficient information in regards to what guidances in the book of God. And therefore, there is nothing outside of the book of God that is required for you to find this guidance on how to be a proper human being that on the day of judgment that you're going to present yourself in a way to God that is acceptable.

You talked to your parents correctly. You talked to the people in a good way. You've stood the prayer. Uh you stood uh against oppression and you've given from what God has given you and you served your God. That's simply what the position is entailed. Now in regards to ev the denial or the rejection of hadith, we don't reject history. We don't reject uh we don't reject historical sources. We don't reject narrations.

And in that sense, what we reject is religious authority of hadith. So therefore, hadith as a corpus is not necessary for somebody to achieve Islam. If it's some people's application that we can understand, but there's many ways of somebody applying the Quran and it's still acceptable and it's still the religion of God and this is what God has said that he has created us with many tongues and many tribes and many colors for us to learn from each other. And the Quran is still the common ground for all of this humanity where the Quran is going to be applied differently which we see in the history after the blessed prophet in regards to different people accepting the Quran.

Now in regards to principle and epistemology the concept comes from principle. So God is telling us in the Quran in many verses and even when he's comparing us to the or he's telling us the stories about the children of Israel, the Jews and the Christians specifically and the people of the book, he's always uh appealing back to the gospel to Torah to the uh psalms uh the books that he has sent. He doesn't appeal to anything outside of that.

He's not talking about anyone's wisdom or anyone's application of their books. He's just saying to refer to that book. Now we prove this principle also by epistemology. So when we see what the individuals are saying in regards to guesswork and making apologetics to things that are contradictory reports that have not been authored by God nor by the messenger we see the inconsistencies the ingratitude to what God has sent and furthermore we see the insulting nature of the hadith.

We turn away from it because it's not something that is necessary. Now in regards to the concept of about hate or love or the rage or anger or misplaced passion quite simply there's a lot of reverts that have not been grown grown they did not grow and this is a point my good brother Isa made out he he's a revert he wasn't raised with hadith and all of that but they just simply when they read the material and on the surface level it just looks extremely problematic and the Quran on a surface level it doesn't the Quran does not need somebody to hold your hand for you to get guided.

God is the one guiding you through his words. But in the hadith, you're saying that we need somebody to hold our hand. And yet, when he's holding our hand, we can't truly ask questions. In the very very onset of of what people are calling Islam after the blessed prophet Muhammad, the people of were the ones who are dominant in in the courts and in the governments, the people of opinion. And slowly that was transitioned out and phased out by the hadithist traditionalists when they when they they beat him out.

And uh of course for us the book of God is the shortcut to the guidance that can be achieved without the book of God. But God's mercy is telling us the answer and it's coupled by uh people's understanding and people's opinion. So that's >> sure. So just to yeah to kind of get in there that that I this this view this understanding that the Quran is central.

Um I absolutely agree with that that is the teaching of the school of Medina that is in principle the school the teaching of many um Muslims and scholars in Islam. And some may disagree. I accept that. But I'm not here trying to defend that view that where some may disagree. The school of Medina, the school of um which is Imam Malik, the school of Imam Abuhanifh in principle too is that the Quran is always central and other principles or other um guidances always orbit that almost like a solar system.

And this was the analogy I gave last week in saying that the Quran is the sun and these and then you may have planets and planets may have moons and things like this. Now that's so the authority and the principle being the Quran the central that's uh you know a there's no dispute on that. So I totally wholeheartedly um you know commend you on that principle and agree with you that the Quran is always there's primacy for the Quran.

But I want to ask you that okay so you're saying in principle the uh the hadith are you distinguishing between hadith and sunnah or not at all? >> Our definition of sunnah is a little bit different than how people approach what the word sunnah means. So for us there's two types of sunnas in the Quran. The the traditions of the people who has be passed before which is what God is guiding the blessed prophet.

And then the other sunnah that we're aware of is which is the tradition of God and how God deals with his subjects and his servants and how he deals with the disbelievers. This we're in agreement >> in reg. Yeah. So there's no I mean you know what we're talking about when you're saying the sunnah the sunnah of the prophet. >> So so there is not a specific sunnah for the prophet that we have to follow that is outlined in the Quran. What we have is so lessons and what god has told us about the lessons of the other prophets including >> that stuff we don't dispute.

That stuff we don't dispute. So there's no point going into that because we agree on all of that. The lessons in the Quran are universal and we agree on all of that >> and that's the limits of prophet Muhammad to us. >> Do you feel that the prophet was do you feel that the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam was teaching giving guidance do you feel that he was doing this as well? Was he elaborating on the Quran?

>> Yes, he was definitely elaborating and clarifying the Quran to the people around him. We don't accept that not valuable to us as Muslims. >> It hasn't been preserved and whatever he's been teaching, he was guided by God and God is guiding you in the same manner. We don't have to express the Quran in the same way the blessed prophet did because the times have changed. So the way that the prophet lived his sunnah, he wouldn't have lived in the same manner now because times have evolved.

If it was something that was necessary for religion, then God would have preserved it. The fact that it's not preserved, it shows that this is the test. Is the word of God sufficient for you or do you need to be spoonfed? Now you you told me about the Quran centric approach which is true. Everybody claims that the Quran is the Trump and the Quran is the negating the bad hadith and all this. But when we see in practice, we don't see that that's the case. They they in fact they they they go off what the tradition and the uh the history is saying.

>> Sure. But clear versus they don't care. >> You see, but let's not strawman other people either. So I or let's not pick on bad examples because you know we can do that with everybody. I want this case to see whether there is a case to be made here that you're presenting and that is that there is if I've understood this correctly. What you're saying is that there is no that the prophet did give guidance in addition to the Quran.

>> I take it that's what you're saying. But that guidance today is are you saying it's irrelevant? Are you saying it's inv it's not valuable at all? Um are you saying it's it would have been valuable if it reached us? >> The guidance that is coming out of the messenger. Okay, that is for all the people which we find in the Quran because he's using the message that God has given him. The guidance that comes out of the prophet that's localized to his people.

So this is where is the difference between a prophet and a messenger. Now, when you're talking about this clarification, >> this when you're talking about the clarification of the Quran, >> this is not when we see these things that you assume that the prophet said, we find it wholeheartedly denying the Quran. So, we >> just to just to build on what you're saying, if you're arguing that there is guidance in the Quran to do with how other prophets advised and spent their time with their people.

So we are to learn from the example of let's say uh Musa Alisam and Aubisam and other prophets but we're not to learn from the example of our own prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam. Wouldn't it be >> more deserving that we learn from our prophet who is the seal of prophets. He is he's a mercy for the entire world. If we >> not the mercy, >> God sending him is the mercy.

The mercy to the mankind is God sending a messenger. That's why he's the mercy for mankind because God in his mercy sent us this clear book. We have the lessons of the prophets >> the embodiment of mercy >> of the Quran. No, >> sure of the Quran as well. >> Yes. But he cannot be the embodiment of mercy because no nothing can grasp the mercy of God. But you have to understand as well. >> Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So if he can be the embodiment of the Quran and as >> so can you.

>> So so how can he not be the embodiment of mercy? Can can other things be the embodiment of the Quran in their entire >> because because God is the most merciful and he bestows his mercy upon whom he >> challenging Allah with the prophet. We're not this is not like pitting against what we're saying is >> but it's the word choice that you're using. the word that you're using, you're elevating a human being beyond what he's supposed to be elevated with.

We don't have hate. >> Allah, I'm not using the words. Allah says [Music] that that's the truth. >> These are the same names Allah uses for himself to bring >> but there's a difference between and alim embodiment of mercy does not mean I can show mercy. It does not mean I have embodied mercy. The only entity that's capable of being alman which means embodied with mercy is alman.

No one's going to be contending with God. So this is the point that he could embody the entire speech of God. >> He didn't no the entire speech of God that it's not the entire speech of God the words of God. >> Yeah. I didn't but he could. Yeah. I correct myself. I don't mean the entire speech. Yeah. >> Correct. He understands them. the entire Quran.

>> He understands the mentality. The unfortunate part is the way that we learn these lessons about the messengers that God has talked about like Aaron and Moses and Job is the same way we learn about Prophet Muhammad. And that's the limit because when we start to go and try to explore other sources thinking that this is part of the religion, we start to fall into idolatry. And this is what we keep seeing from all these individuals that want to push a certain narrative. You express that he's most beloved of all creation, but he definitely isn't.

This these are these are words that you're saying that you can't prove and this is falling into celebrity worship. That's why the Quran alone position makes sense. >> This let just to understand your case and because I want to I don't want to straw man it. You see, are you saying that some people are not more beloved to Allah than others? >> Some people are more beloved but we can't say the most beloved. That's not something that we can say the most.

The word most that means now you are >> if some are beloved more beloved than others then along this spectrum there must be somebody who's at the top of the spectrum or some people at the top of the are >> perfect. So why why isn't Abraham better than Muhammad? >> Why isn't he better? Because no why not more beloved.

>> Look Allah says that we that we favored some and chose some above others. >> Correct. >> Now Ibraim now Ibraimisam. Now Ibraim is >> Exactly. So you're saying the word is what is the what is the of our prophet >> in the Quran?

What what is the above? If you're going to go by the Quran, it's >> Yeah. Well, God says anybody not just >> God to the people because the blessed prophet. >> No, I'm not mean God. Obviously, Allah is Allah. Nobody's comparing the prophet to Allah. But I mean is any other prophet given that in the Quran mean?

Yeah. >> So, so the sending >> Why is that not >> He's saying why not? >> Because we have not sent you except as a mercy. >> No, but a is something you are called by in Arabic. So you can be called by what you So for example, if you if Allah is calling you by this, >> right? So this is not This is a clar.

No, it isn't because it's a clarification. It's not a It's a >> It's not a It's a negation. In Arabic, you are the My grammatic definition of it is is it not Or you can describe it as it can be as well or it could be or so in either case it's describing the

prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam is so the thing that is being described is the so clarifying the so when God is saying we have not sent you the book. So God is explaining to you why the book. So now, >> no, no, no. So wait, wait, wait, wait.

Just to correct you on this, right? We sent you as a mercy for the worlds. Now I understand I accept that you might say that you choose not to take that understanding and you want to take the understanding of the is the but the primary primary uh the primary is so you can't negate that but you could say that look we can also because I want

you look just as you want to be steelman you have to steal all other arguments that you can say that look yes but I don't want to take that understanding I want to take the perspective that the the prophet is not the is the so you can do that in Arabic but the primary >> in Arabic yeah in Arabic >> the word the word what is that

yeah yeah yeah >> no What? >> No. Allah is not just for No, no, no, no, no, no. You're talking that that would be that would be Yes. No. So, but it is it is not called it is called you're talking about now the function of it.

>> But but my my good brother is negatory. So I'm negating every every purpose of the except so now I am making condition. >> Okay, let's go with that. Let's go with that then. Let's go with that. That >> amplifies it even more. The only thing we have sent you as is a mercy for the entire world. >> So >> that's beautiful.

>> Okay. So you said you so that means the only thing that the prophet has been sent for is to be a mercy for the whole world. No, that's not what it's saying. We have sent you. >> You just said you want to go with >> you. It does not mean that he is. It's the is the That's my point. >> But the is talking. >> No. The of who? >> The sending of the messenger, the blessed prophet Muhammad is the he is the it is him being sent.

Let me put it this let me make it very clear. It is no no just Muhammad just but you've been cutting to steal money. You're not letting me even finish a point. >> I want you to finish. I want you No, no, don't. Yeah. So, >> cutting me off. >> No, but listen. Listen. I want you to complete it properly. So, it is not the verb is not on its own. It's so the verbal noun that I'd like you to expand on is not it's >> Okay.

Now, you may carry on that you're sending, >> right? It's not on its own. It's sending in Arabic sending. So what you if you want to take one minute one minute there's a difference between me saying you're sending is a mercy for the people compared to your mercy for people. So the difference here if the prophet bless peace and blessings upon him sat in his house and did absolutely nothing there is no mercy for the people.

So he is not the mercy for the people. Him being sent is the mercy for people and anybody who is going to fulfill that position >> him being sent not somebody else >> not him is because it's specifically about him but it's descending is the mercy it's not him is the mercy >> I don't want to I don't want to just carry on on this point because but I I want to clarify and and by the way is my absolute passion I if anybody's followed me they know that.

So I just want to highlight and then we can move on that look in this verse the primary understanding in Arabic because you're saying the Quran we only go with the Quran right the primary understanding of the Arabic of the Quran is that we sent you the prophet as a mercy for the whole world now you can Muhammad you can say I don't want to take that understanding I want to take the understanding of the verbal noun that that the sending of you is the mercy for the whole world.

Now that's okay. You want to take advice >> because you started a conversation. You started a conversation. You're saying Muhammad is the mercy to mankind. But here you're saying which is the of the is the sending of you. We sending you is a mercy for >> second interpretation. That's what I'm saying. You set your >> That's a verbatim. That's a verbatim. There's no other interpretation from but but this is what you did.

This is what you did. You took a portion of the verse. You said but the verse doesn't say you are a mercy for the people. It's saying we did not send you accept. So if he was not sent he wouldn't have been the mercy for people. That's how how logical I'm not going to do any dishonesty with you in the Arabic language. I want you to not argue futilities. Okay?

Don't just waste your time. Right? I I respect you uh you know as a brother um as somebody I'm showing you a lot of love right don't look I I don't mean to use this as a as a kind of trump card but I know as a fact that your Arabic is still developing and that's fine and that's great I'm going to steal man this for you I'm not trying to take this away from you right but do not argue for the sake of argumentation right because look

Most the primary understanding of the Quran is the is what is rahmed alam that we did not send you Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam except as a mercy for the world for the worlds. Now you could say that I don't want to take that primary understanding and that's your choice. I want to take the understanding of what is called the verbal noun in Arabic. The verbal noun here is >> the the sending of you the sending of you Muhammad as a mercy for the whole world.

>> Perfect. >> Then in this Yeah. So, so that's fine. Let's let's move on from this because right I because I feel that look what I you said your time is limited. I don't want you to just go run and you said something and you're talking about the Arabic language. What's the difference if I said what would have been the difference in meaning there? Mhm. >> This is speaking about the >> How's that?

>> No, if you said it's highlighting I'm saying you are but a mercy for the whole world. >> You are the mercy of the world at that point. >> You are but a mercy for the whole world. >> Exactly. Then he would be then he would be what you guys say. >> Look first is us sending you as a mercy and we did not send you except as a mercy >> except as a mercy.

Exactly. >> Perfect. We did >> we did not send you >> except you except as a mercy for the whole world. >> We did not send. So if it's not we you are a mercy. It's saying sending you >> we did not send you. So you the person we did not send you accept as a mercy for the whole world. Look okay fine. >> Simply simply if I said and I have not sent him it would still be a true statement.

Okay. He would still be but if I said and I did not send him then he is not. Therefore it's holding. >> Okay. I'm going to respond to that and then we'll move on. Okay. So what is the difference as Muhammad here has said that look Allah says about the prophet

or what if Allah just said that you are but a mercy for the whole world. I mean from one perspective the meaning is very similar that the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam is a mercy for the entire universe. By adding what it does is it reinforces that you not just that you are a mercy but that Allah endorses that his whole sending of you was but as a mercy.

So it amplifies the meaning that the that it's being that one is if I said to you that imagine a person like a king he says well this person is you know this person is amazing or this sorry this person is an ambassador and then you say but the the king sent this person but as an ambassador so it comes with an endorsement that oh wow so you're looking >> you said it perfectly right exactly >> exactly here you're saying Allah has sent yeah sent the prophet as he wasn't sent he's not an ambassador if he was not sent then he would >> that's like saying you know if Allah didn't create us we wouldn't be here

>> so obviously that's >> prophet Muhammad sitting at prophet Muhammad if he sat Muhammad let's steal man your case you know this thing what I don't want to do look I want you to understand something and this whole opportunity is because you said look people um I'm not aware way. But I'm assuming people have been very harsh with you. They've straw manned your arguments. They've hurt your sentiment.

I mean, from last week what you said. Sorry. Or I understood. So I I would like this opportunity to kind of allow to listen to people from their hearts. But I want you to understand something. Please look. The prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam to countless Muslims throughout the world is the first and foremost before anything. Sallallahu alaihi wasallam. My whole discussion my whole discussion please don't try to just you know just just for the sake of it try to be silly with a remark there.

Look, the the my whole reason and objective behind when I said uh challenged certain hadith narratives, when I presented Bkari gate, when I did all of these things was that they were hadith that insulted the honor of the messenger of Allah sallallahu alaihi wasallam. And the messenger of Allah's honor is before our own honor.

His life is before our life and we love him and we and and he is as the Quran describes him. I understand that some Muslims might not share that and you may not share that right. Please let's leave that out of it because I don't want to hurt you know that kind of discussion that's going to put the prophet down. Sallallahu alaihi wasallam.

>> How am I putting the prophet down? No, I'm just saying, you know, this I don't want to elaborate on things like that because look, I just saying that I'm steering it away from that. I'm steering it away from that. Okay? I'm trying to keep it on point about the whole hadith sunnah as opposed to, you know, this thing of saying, look, if the prophet just sat there in his house, did nothing, what's so special about him, things like this. I don't want to take it down that road just out of respect for you, out of respect for us, out of honor for the messenger of sallallahu alaihi wasallam.

So sticking to this argument >> just saying >> but it might come off like that and I this is why I don't I I would never believe any Muslim as the Quran states we don't care about the blame of a critic. This is in the Quran and we stick to it. So we say the truth and if there's critics that don't like what we're saying that's fine. We God says in regard to the messenger. So we're not distinguishing. The same way you guys talk about Moses and Jesus is the same way we talk about Muhammad.

>> The same another thing, you know, all this you and us. Let's for a moment, let's just dissolve some of that talk. Let's just talk as brothers here. Yeah. You know, forget all this us versus them narrative. I'm not here to I'm not giving you this platform to kind of berate you and to kind of break you down or something. And and I'm I'm giving you this platform. >> All the respect at the beginning at the beginning with all due respect at the beginning I I did answer you and I would be quiet but you kept interrupting me time and time again and I'm a person that debate >> the nature of discussion.

>> No right it isn't it isn't it is it's in the nature of a person who wants to be defensive. So I let you be defensive but at the same time then when I am going to get cut off when I was trying to present a point then I'm going to use my tactics that I know as well. It's not about me and you. It's about finding the common ground. But if I'm not going to be heard, then I'm going to defend myself. >> Right. Look, listen, Muhammad, if I didn't want you to be heard, there wouldn't be a point for me calling you on this conversation. I want you to understand that. Look, the reason I'm saying this is because up until now, maybe everybody that just going by what you're saying, everybody you've gone and spoken to, it's been these tactics.

You know, you've just they've tried to break you down. You've tried to break them down. Let's get to the gist of this. I I'm talking about the actual meat of the conversation. So you kept I I made a very >> Let's get Okay, let's let's go back to the point. >> I can't make that simple point. >> No, you did. You did. I understood it. That's the point that I wanted to make. No, no. You want to say that if you feel down no before we went down into this whole narrative of mercy.

>> Let's get to the point that I was making is that because of people going outside of the Quran and focusing on things outside of the Quran they form they fall into some things of forms of idolatry and then they say things that are not correct. You clearly said the most beloved >> I don't finish the point man. >> Look right. Yeah. But look listen you you have >> finished the point. No no no I haven't. Because I'm telling you, you said the word most beloved of all creation.

Yet you cannot prove this word and therefore you're saying a lie against God. That's why we cannot accept what you're saying because you have no proof of what you're saying other than so and so said so. It's not God saying so. It's some guy in the history who his own opinion said so. That's the difference. God listen. So Muhammad listen listen. When you're going to make a point about that, okay, you've made your point. Look, you don't accept the prophet as the best of creation.

Although in principle, you do agree that there is a best of creation, but you just don't believe it's the prophet. That's fine. Most Muslims do believe it is the prophets. All Muslims, actually. I I would argue >> all Christians believe that Jesus died on the cross, too. So that's that's an irrelevant point. >> It's a very God says, "And who is more oppressive than the one that makes lies about God?" You made something that you can't prove when you're saying >> because look because you can't prove it.

So when you're saying that God made him as the most beloved which is not the case >> because look because like I said right now sure look you don't you you don't accept that. That's fine but you do agree that there is a most beloved of of Allah which we don't know. We just don't think it's >> we can also prove from the Quran and from your books as well the books that you guys love.

>> Listen, stop this all this and all of this thing >> because unless you're not a Muslim unless you're not a Muslim because this is accept >> yes you accept the Muslim tradition. So I'm saying from your Muslim tradition we can also prove >> why are you Muslim? You're not a Muslim >> because it's not a tradition that I follow. That's fine. But there's many things in the Muslim tradition that I don't follow. But to say that, oh, it's your your Muslim tradition.

No, it's our Muslim tradition. Now, there's many of things we may not follow. >> It's not from the prophet that >> Right. Right. I never said the prophet's tra the the the only the prophets. The Muslim tradition. >> It's not from the Yes. Cool. you you keep saying you can say why are you saying >> but rather than saying because rather than just constantly saying you're your your Muslim tradition as if you're not a Muslim >> from the Muslim tradition >> I'm a I'm a submitter I I I don't like these labels but these are the labels that we keep hearing so I'm using the convention so for people to understand but I'm also disassociating away from it quite simply when we look at what is written in the Quran and what people

state about who prophet Muhammad and Abraham is there is more favor given to Abraham than Muhammad. So if Muhammad is the most beloved according to you, then why is the most beloved man being instructed to follow? That makes no sense. All right. Okay. Sure. So, right. So, that was the argument. Right. Fine. Look, I don't want to just get caught up on one discussion of um more importantly the sunnah of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam.

So when Allah is saying in the Quran things like when he's teaching us since you spoke of Ibraimisam Ibraimisam Allah cites them in uh his in his dua that that Allah that send a messenger from them who will recite your verses to them.

He will teach them the book which is the Quran and the wisdom and he will purify them. Right? So what would you understand here that the hikma is? Because if you're saying the prophet never taught anything else. What is the hikma? >> The hikma is the application of the Quran. But you find the hikma in the Quran as well. So the book does not equal Quran. >> No sir. >> The book what?

>> Why not? Mhm. >> Because the book, as God states for Jesus, right, in regards to Jesus, >> yeah. No, no, no. Let's not No, no, no. Let's stick to this verse. >> I I'm I'm trying to explain to you what the book is. So, I'm going to reference the Quran to tell you what the book is. God states about Jesus. So, because God has separated from, we know they're two separate concepts.

So, in the case of blessed prophet Muhammad, Right or now in regards to the is what God has inspired you of the hikma of the wisdom this is in chapter 17 do not make another god with god and previous to that there's many verses telling you about the wisdom so the wisdom is found >> so you're saying so what is the wisdom then so the wisdom is so you're saying Allah is saying so just so people can understand and I can understand your case as that here when Allah says so for those people that the famous dua of Ibraim

that send a messenger amongst them who will teach them your verses your signs he will he will teach them most people understand this to mean the Quran now and that and he will teach them the wisdom and he will purify them so you so just to understand you correctly that are the same thing here. Is that what you're saying or >> no?

The Quran is teaching you the so in the Quran you have you have you have you have you have many there's many things that are in the >> the are okay the judgments of God is the so for example you're saying that those are two separate things is that what you're saying okay >> that's not that that is the primary understanding you have to agree with something look >> no I don't because I'm going to give you a verse and show you that how >> sure.

So I'm going with look primmaashi when you're reading some because you want to go with just Arabic and the Quran and the primary understanding. >> So and excellent excellent. So the primary understanding when you're reading this verse does come across that look this is the primapy anybody that reads this verse it says that he will teach them the which is the Quran revelation and hikma and wisdom.

and he will purify them. And and note how it says that the prophet will purify them. >> So once again, the prophet somebody that does that, not just the Quran, the prophet also purifies them. >> So God is clearly stating here reciting to them the verses. That's the Quran. So he's teaching them through the ayat.

If I take you to chapter two verse 231. Okay. It's not. So it's not two separate things. It's one thing. So is going back to Allah, not to the book.

>> Yeah. It's going back to Allah. No. So admonishes you regarding Allah. But carry on carry on like I am is not okay. We I can make a breakdown on this.

>> That is Allah. But carry on. Yeah. >> Sure. So what I was trying to express is that the come hand in hand and when you see the word in the Quran, it always referred to what is being taught in the books that God has sent. >> Okay. So fine because I I want once again look I want to understand where it is you're coming from. So here this is an amalgamation of different components and modalities of the Quran. you're saying okay and you know so for example there's the verse of the Quran which is also in um um where it mentions

that we reveal to you here the reminder or revelation however you want to understand in the Quran so that you may clarify to people what has been revealed to them. Now if every single thing if the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam was his his his mode of being was not as important then why does the Quran highlight that we reveal this reminder to you so that so that you may explain to people what has been revealed to them.

I mean that's not to say that look that's not to say I'm not trying to make the argument that the Quran is inaccessible but that the Quran does have certain depths and nuances and perspectives that the messenger of Allah with his amazing life and s embodied and taught. So the verse that you're quoting you took the verse out of context because God streets with the uh scriptures

who is the prophet. Okay. So to to show to >> it's not out of context. It is out of context because it's not talking about >> it's talking about the so what who is no so who is the is it not the prophet >> it is about the prophet but God has given >> so what is revealed what so for example there was and records that were sent before the Quran and these individuals have lost the message

so the Quran Right? The Quran which the prophet has received the it's clarifying to the people what has been sent to them. So for example in the Torah they claim that Aaron was the one who built the golden calf. But the Quran is clarifying to the people what was sent to them. >> Why do you need it? >> But why does it say you need to No. Why do you >> He's the messenger. He's the messenger.

He's the one reciting it. He's the one who >> But that's not what it says though. I accept that by extension you could take that meaning. So who given what was he given the vicar the it's not saying Quran it's saying vicar okay which is revelation in this whether you want to say look it's the reminder so the revelation revelation so the revelation is doing the that's why god clearly states in the same chapter in chapter Sure, that's fine.

Look, I don't want to, like I said, look, the main point is to get your reflection on these verses. Most if not all of the mufas generally. Now, I know the muasar are not uh an authority in that case because they're part of the Islamic tradition, but they will all highlight for the Arabic and this is for the Arabic because somebody mentioned about the Arabic in the comments as well, right? that this verse clearly is speaking that the prophet explains and thereby does highlight that the prophet's significance in explaining the message every single tap will highlight that.

Now I I just wanted to see your reflection on it which is saying look fine you know you don't feel that that's you feel that here it it means that the prophet explaining the Quran as in just reciting the Quran. >> Okay. Can I show you something as well in the Quran in chapter verse uh chapter 5 verse 15? Okay.

So the Quran is the this is what's very clear in the Quran. Again it's pointing back to the same book and the message. >> I tell you why it's different here because that verse it says linas for people mankind. This one is speaking about >> oh the first one is for mankind. So it's perfect. So who are the first one? >> You said it perfectly. It's exactly what I said at the beginning. It said >> because the argument is perfect.

No, but you kind of trapped yourself because the Quran needs to be >> the Quran, it's a mind trap. The Quran needs to to >> the believers. They need to do the Quran is believers. The believers are the ones who need the clarifications. They have other books as well that needs >> but that one says look L says people.

But anyway, we got your reflection on it which was what we wanted. Speaking about can I ask just about this verse so we don't lose the uh >> right because look what I want to do is from here now moving on from revelation I want to take it to the understanding of Islam without the sunnah but look just this point where you mentioned that

that a light has come to you from God and the light here is as the mufasin would highlight is the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam. What would your thoughts be? So what are you saying? What is the light then? >> The light is prophet Muhammad. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So why does it say So it's not Muhammad's N the has been

given to him. So that's >> so what is the so so the that is been given to him and then carry on. So what is the N but then what does it say? carry on. >> No, it says >> yes that it's okay to have the book has come and the light has come from God. So who what is the light?

>> It's explaining the light and the book. It does not necessitate for it to be two different things. It >> once again you're saying it's just the same thing. >> It's explaining I just wanted your reflection. >> One minute. One minute just because of what you're saying is prophet Muhammad a prophet or not? >> Sorry.

>> When it say So when we took the oath from the prophets and from you and from Noah is Noah and Muhammad are they not prophets? >> Of course they are. Yeah. >> Okay. So why did he say prophets and Muhammad and uh Noah? Why? So if you're asking look if you're asking right does wow come of course it comes but in a sentence that is just where you specify something.

So if I said look I've spoken to all the people all the staff and I've spoken to him and him as well. Now it doesn't mean there were members of staff but you're highlighting them. It's like you know you're getting a highlighter and putting it >> but in that verse where he says from Allah what has come to you is a light and a clarifying book. >> Perfect. So the light you per you said it. So the a book is a form of light and the light of God is much more grander.

So God is specifying the type of light he's talking about. >> So what is the light here? >> The light is the book that is being sent. That's why he's saying so what he's saying is >> come to you is a is the book and a clarifying book >> the he's explaining the book that it's a light and specifically it's a clear book so is the book light yes or no is the is the >> so so the is the no look the Quran here the Quran is being mentioned you know in Arabic you have a principle either right so the thing is nobody's denying that the Quran is a light but when the

Quran is being mentioned when the Quran is being mentioned as the clarifying book and a light which is in this case would say it's the prophet but fine okay just to say you're saying it's the book and the book but a certain aspect of the book is the light >> so can I ask you simply in the next verse in 16 what's the what's the pronoun is it the or the the clear Generally the grims say now ideally you could go to both but the grimarians what what do the grimarians say where does the

>> the the closest one wouldn't it be >> yeah that's what they say so generally speaking so the grians say whenever you have a pronoun it goes back to whatever is most close the antecedent that is most close >> so the prophet is not a >> no clear and it's easy to Because if they're two separate topics, but it's Allah or use the singular pronoun also to when he's telling you bringing you to guidance to Allah and the messenger in the famous where you say um where he uses a single pronoun.

But here look nobody is denying look nobody is denying that the Quran by saying wait just for a moment by saying that the pronoun is going back to the Quran that Allah guides by the Quran everybody would accept that as Muslims even if you said Allah guides by the prophet everybody accepts that >> so it doesn't really make respect with all due respect what the verses here continuously saying it's a singular source and it's not two different sources so there's nothing outside of the book the And when you're saying even when we're going to go as far as God and his messenger, God says

singular again. So is it the limits of the messenger now or is it the limits of God or is it because they're coming in tandom >> people? Yeah. According to certain people it's it's coming in tandem. They're coming in tandem. So it's when he's taking things that are two components and he's combining it combining it and he's putting a single pronoun then it's going back that same trying too hard to just explain the point which has been explained I accepted look you said I asked a simple question that look what do you say Allah has mentioned them both next to each other that from Allah has come to you a light which most Muslims say is the prophet here and a clarifying

book has come to you so your point was look here light is just referring to different aspect of the book. >> Perfect. You're negating the Quran. So, no, you you have your interpretation. Yeah. Yes. But then when >> But you're trying too hard to explain the simple point. >> The simple point is because I've already accepted you saying it's it's just another modality of the Quran. Fine. Okay. Okay. That's your interpretation. Okay.

>> But but it's not about one one minute. When you keep saying that that's your interpretation, it's your interpretation is negated by the Quran. That's the problem. This is where these differences where we don't appreciate it >> for a moment. Look, listen. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Please don't do that. Right? >> Don't look. I've told you already. Nobody is here. I'm not trying to set you up in your Arabic. I'm not trying to set you up in certain things.

>> I'm giving you a platform to just >> No, I'm not. Look, and it's unfortunate if you feel that way. I would wall if I didn't respect you, I wouldn't give you a platform right now. So when I'm saying to you look in the beginning when on any interpretation just be straightforward look you can accept like I said to you look I accept you I just wanted your reflection which here this is how primmaashi when you're reading Arabic and the Quran this is the first understanding that comes to you now you could have said for example another popular main understanding that comes to you that Allah says that has come to you from Allah a light and a clarifying book

some people here said light means guidance Okay. Hud. Okay. Many mufas said N here means the Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam the prophet. Now okay I asked you on your reflection. You said look my reflection is N it just means the book modality of the Quran. Right. And okay fine. Right. But to say oh the to try and say look the other understandings are being negated.

The other understandings are the primapasi understandings of Arabic. they are thead. Now, I'm not saying you can't take your understanding from the Quran as well. You can. So, please don't negate the other understandings. Don't do that because I'm not doing that to you. And I I want you to I want you to share your reflection so we can see where you're coming from. I don't want to say to you, you know what that is and so on.

No, because that will shut down the conversation. But the problem is is because there is these interpretations that do not align with the Quranic narrative is why we have these problems. So that's why our position is very solid when it comes down to the Quran. and what you want to point out. >> But you you see when you're saying things when the Quran is answering you then has that please you're lecturing me and you're telling me what to do and what not to do but then why don't you let me finish a point and then lecture you because this is not this is not fair from your end.

I don't need you to lecture me when you're saying things that are not aligning with the Quran. It is my duty as a believer, as a Muslim, to show you the verse, to show you that you're wrong. Whether you accept it or not, it's not on me. But it's my duty to show you how you're wrong. Whether you like to or not, that's fine. But you keep lecturing me, and I don't need you. You understand? >> Listen, please listen. Look, listen, listen. I don't know. Look, you're obviously perhaps used to people doing treating you in a certain way.

So, you're assuming I'm treating you in that way. I'm not I'm not treating you in that way. Yes, you do understand because you keep you keep you keep extremely brother simply you say a word you say a word I bring a verse and then you say that it's inter your interpretation and please don't don't do this and please don't do that I'm trying to talk about the context I'm trying to talk about the conversation of what the verses say and stuff I don't need you to lecture me on the adab please this is not for you nor your position if if you don't like how I'm treating you we can end this right now and I can move on because I'm not getting any benefit from what you're saying nor are you listening to what I'm saying.

So there's there's not there's not much that's going to happen here. >> Okay. Can I can I maybe you misunderstood what I said then. Can I explain just once again what I said when I said look don't do that. What I said don't do was try to say that the other understandings which are by the way the mutabad and primary understandings don't exist. So what you said is the Quran negates the other understandings. No it doesn't.

Right. Every it doesn't negate the other understandings. They are in fact the primary understandings when you read this look the primary understanding would either mean that the means guidance and or the primary understanding would mean you could say the N is the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam or you could say as you've said that look I want to be of the Quran fine you could take that but to say no other understanding exists except the one I'm present that's what I said don't do so maybe you misunderstood that So that's fine.

>> So let let me clarify my position. When you're saying that the N is Muhammad, this is the part where you're not showing any accuracy from what the Quran is saying. If you want to say Huda and that makes sense. You want to say a moduality of N is the that makes sense. When you're going to say that it's prophet Muhammad is the nor here, then you have to prove that from the Quran, which you can't. That's the point that I'm trying to get across. But so yes, when you you mean it can't be No.

When you say it it's not understood linguistically, is that what you mean? It's not understood. How is it not understood >> in the Quran? We can't take a verse and in in like when we isolate a verse and we're going to say that this word means this word when the other verses in the Quran are talking about the exact same thing. So I >> So is that inaccurate? It's an inacc as in somebody who doesn't understand Arabic just wrongly understood that. Is that >> No, that's somebody who's defining the word for what it is not.

So this is a >> which is by the way incredible of this um who studied Arabic and and the Quran much longer than you and I. So they're not my lord. >> This is what I'm saying. No, they're not. But are you saying that they've misunderstood? Arab is that what you're saying that the Arabic is being misunderstood? >> The the word N here cannot signify to a human being from the basic Arabic. Okay. But we can try to say try to inter. So people look so so what you're see now this is the this is the reason let me finish >> this is why your argument is getting is getting so heavyhanded by people finish I I I trust me I'm doing all right what

I'm trying to explain very simply is that people who have made this tapere they already had this presupposition that prophet Muhammad is higher than the all highests other than God and because of that they want to put prophet Muhammad in the verse when is not there. We have the same things with individuals that say that Khalifa is a messenger. I have no I don't want you. No, no, no. Look, listen, >> but I was trying to example. I mean, like you keep interrupting me when I'm trying to land my point.

So the people that say that Rashad Khalifa is a messenger, they keep trying to they keep trying I'm trying to explain a point. I don't want to talk about I'm showing the human psych the human psychology where they want to shove a person there when he's not there. Just just to understand. So just to because what you said a moment ago is that a person cannot arrive like this is some kind of wrong Arabic that we're understanding or is it a wrong uh is that what you're saying or you're saying it's an interpretation that you just don't agree with which would have been what I told you in the beginning that the primary interpretation is actually guidance and

the prophet and the tertiary which is equally valid because you you said I want to understand it to mean it's the Quran and another modality of the Quran. Are you saying that the other interpretations are just wrong and poor Arabic? Is that what you're saying? >> Again, it's not the other interpretations that are aligning with what the verse is saying because I said N is such a big topic. It's a set and the clear book is a subset. So, we're still talking about guidance.

When you want to say that the N is prophet Muhammad, that is not something that you can prove from the Quran. That's what I'm already established. >> How is that a light? But how is the mercy not a light? >> So any because even the disbelievers get mercy from God. It does not mean that they're on light. >> Disbelievers don't get light from God. >> They're in darknesses. That's why the God clearly states here.

So they can still have mercy from God, but they're still in darkness. So again, you see that the Quran answers the guidance. Have they not had the Quran come to them? >> Who? the disbelievers. >> Yes, but they rejected it. But they still found mercy. >> But it came to them. And who brought it to them? >> I think you're missing my point. >> Look, let's Okay, let's move on.

I understand. Look, I just wanted your reflection. I don't want to turn one point into something that just goes on and on, right? So, okay. >> Well, but usually this is what I have. It's it's like when when somebody brings a point I use a verse of the Quran and then we talk about but here it's like we're not even talking about the Quran >> look yeah sure because this is why I don't want it to turn into something which is just you know I want to show that we can as brothers have a conversation I want to show them this is why I invited you and I'm trying as well believe me >> yeah but but I feel that you >> I'm trying okay let's move to the second most important

>> center If you just let me finish points when I'm making them instead of trying to >> listen Muhammad look part of a conversation is you have to understand that the other person is talking as well. It's not this is not a point where you know you know we're not suffering on some kind of spectrum where we have to say well I can't you know we can't have a conversation. It's where two people converse. Okay. It's not just you talk like a robot I talk like a robot.

Right. Look. Okay. Let's move on to to uh something on the minds of many people including me. I'd like to understand how does the whole let's say applicability or understanding of the Jews of Islam unfold then so you know from loads of things like whether it's going to be salah Hajj Ramadan whether it's going to be all of these things how do they unfold do you do you accept for example of the uh Islamic tradition that the scholars have you know for 1400 years been compiling fatwa.

It doesn't mean you have to accept all of it but you accept you know some people's guidance here like let's say I don't know Imam Malik is saying this or uh somebody else is saying this ornah is saying that or do you just start from scratch yourself? How do how do you go about the whole application of Islam? >> It's in the Quran. So a lot of the things in regards to the prayer the guidelines are there the applications can be a little different. everything to do with the hajj in the Quran.

We have me and my group of people like a group of people that are also people who believe in the Quran. We follow the Quran. We've done multiple Hajj for multiple years now. Uh the Ramadan is all detailed. So I'm not sure which your question. >> What day would you do the on? What day would you do the Hajj? >> So it's not on the days with the other rest of the Muslims. So it's >> that says months that's in plural months.

>> Exactly. >> So it's not the ninth of it's not the ninth of you know >> right. >> So you so you could do >> you can do >> so have is that what you've done? You've gone and done Hajj when >> Yes, we've done Haj and we have done Hajj in as well >> out of Okay. you know with salah because a lot of people would understand salah right now it is mentioned in the Quran but you'd agree that the the the kind of uh how to pray would not be delineated

um it's you know how how would you go about and applying that as in the actual salah as in you know I'm starting it maybe you fold your hands maybe you don't maybe you know when to go into rur when to do stand up after you do two sagas or one sagd in sujud. How do you understand all of this? >> This is not part of the salah.

>> Okay. So what is the salah? >> It's not it's not about it's not about a unit count and the is presented to you. You have the in the Quran says so you have to recite the book. So there's sorry. So you now you have and so the way that you apply it it's going to work. So now can I push back >> can I can I push back a bit is s that the way that you apply it be depends on how you are connecting with your lord in that moment or if there is somebody who's leading the prayer and he's going to tell you just but

just a quick question so obviously god has given us instructions in the Quran about the prayer correct >> sure look I don't want to go off to because I want to just elaborate on this point and then we'll come to your questions >> look give me a quick quick explanation just within like 60 seconds. So starting from beginning till end of salah how you would pray salah just so I can understand cuz I don't I haven't understood. I make the woodoo. I make the woodoo.

>> Not salah. Salah. It's just salah. Forget about >> I make the woodoo and after the wudoo I stand towards the >> I start with verses of the Quran. Uh usually with >> you. >> No. Do you do you don't do >> you say >> isn't that? >> You don't do Okay. Sure. >> Yeah. So you said I don't do start with I I start with so I ask God to I seek refuge to God from the devil >> and then I start with chapter one right because it's a good dua to open up and then I read a full chapter of the Quran right and then I prostrate to my Lord I have my supplication with God and >> I read

>> why do you read fata >> because it's a good one to start with >> but where would you get that from the Quran that it's good to Quran because because because because it's a very good dua to start up with. I'm not saying that it's >> No, I'm not saying that. >> Yes. I'm choosing to go with chapter >> Quran doesn't say oh it's just a choice arbitrary choice you mean? >> Yes. And then I read a full chapter of the Quran and then I prostrate to my Lord and I >> So do you do >> that rur is kneeling?

>> So So you're standing you've read your fat you've read a surah and you go straight into what? Saga. >> Sagna. >> You go straight into sagda. Okay. Do you read anything? >> Sure. No, I just wanted to understand how you do it. Exactly. So, you go straight into saga. Do you read anything in sagd? Make dua in sagd. Do you >> I do dua and glorification. Okay. And godly.

>> Does it say where does it say to do the uh dua in sjud? And >> I am doing that. >> Oh, just arbitrary. Arbit arbitrary. Okay. So then you sit up. You stand back. Yes. So God is giving you the God is giving you the times of the prayers and you fill your times with that prayer. So that's what happens. >> You have to understand that. So you sat up from saga. Do you sit up?

Do you stand up? Is it finished? Is it one ra? >> It depends again. It's between you and your lord in the moment. So if I am told to pray all the for example why is it called? >> Why is it called? It's called but I'm just going for the names sake of the convention. So when it when you're praying from the decline of the sun till the uh twilight of the night which is one prayer he's God is giving you the time that is expected of your prayer.

So in that moment you can read two chapters, three chapters, really good chapters and you get really close to the word of God and then you recitation. >> Yeah. >> But but why are we recitating it >> when you Sure. So when you stand up saying sure >> do you do you do just to I'm just trying to just finalize that so we don't get derailed. So from what I've understood correctly that you just way we we no I'm saying there isn't one way of praying there to us it's a fluid so it depends in the moment what if the structured like the >> what if the imam is praying a different

way to the people behind him >> because when we when we we're praying in congregation the man in the front he's going to be like stand for your lords we stand and then we're going to read the Quran we're he's going to keep reading the verses that he wants to But what if he's going to read you're just going to read one or he's going to read one you want to read. >> So in chapter four it says okay so when you're going to stand the prayer for them and this is when you're praying in congregation. So the guy as I was saying the im will say stand for your lord.

So we stand he's going to read the the verses that he wants and we're going to listen to what he's saying and we're going to ponder upon the Quran as gods do when the Quran's been recited. And then he's gonna say he's gonna say >> subhan Allah. And then he's going to say prostrate. And we prostrate. And then that >> he says the word. >> Yes. Yes. >> And you go. So he says this, the imam says and you all approach it. Yes.

>> So from standing you all go into sujud. Is it one saga, two sagdas? >> It's one long saga. >> One long saga. And then you get up or you >> if you want to kneel. If you want to kneel and he says kneel, then you kneel. And if he wants to do >> whatever whatever the imam is feeling on the day he says >> yes it's not feeling on the day but sure >> oh whatever yeah as in whatever the imam is like if he's feeling like I'm just going to pray one I'll pray one if I'm going to pray and that's the leader that you put in in the congregation and that's what you get but our prayers the majority of the people we pray with is a 30 minute 40m minute 45 minute 1 hour prayers so we have three times of

>> we man subhan allah question >> every day arbitrary the number of >> arbitrary there's no numbers of raqats it's about the durations filling the duration so god is telling you the durations he's not telling you >> there is a number of but there but there is prayed a in practice a numbers of raqat so like you said look that describes one raqat you're saying about a conversation and all I have been receiving from you is you're cutting me off mid-sentence and you're following up with a different question and yet I have not even asked you a single question so I'm not sure how this is a conversation and just an interrogation at this point.

>> No, no, this is not an interrogation at all. Look, I just a simple thing I'm just trying to understand as many people are. How do for example, you practice the application of Islam without you? You're you're you're trying to measure me up to a certain standard, right? That >> I'm trying to understand you. Look look listen. Imagine you would. Yes. So this is honestly but but here's here help me understand it.

Help me understand. >> Here is here here is my push back to you. Here's my push back to you so that you can hear me out please. So if you're saying that these concepts that we're presenting to you is not right or something is weird about it and that we're going to have to learn from the living tradition on how salah is done. Then why is God mentioning these things in the Quran if it's not things for you to pick up yet? You just have to go to the mosque and learn it from the guy that's sitting in the mosque and it's not aligning to what God is saying.

So that's the push back. So yes, you could say that we're inventing a new religion or anything. We're trying to look, I'm not trying to put words in your look, but of what you're saying. >> So I don't want you to put words in my mouth. I've not said anything berating or disrespectful to you. Right? Look, if you ask me, okay, let me clarify my position. Steel man mine, steel man yours. My position as that of Muslims generally speaking worldwide is that there is an unbroken chain of tradition of living tradition between us and the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam of 1,400 years plus from father

to child of how to pray. This is guided in the countless myriad books of explanations built upon sunnah, built upon hadith, built upon fatwa, built upon, right? But I could show you in every single century for example you pick a century show you from that century 9th century 10th century 6th century from the books of the school of Medina how they prayed like me now when I'm understanding just to understand it you see you said well okay the Quran mentions we pray now now let me push back you said something let me push back please so you said that there's this uncut tradition all the way back from

the prophet right so now if we look >> before we come to that Let's just steal man your salah just so we know >> earlier earlier when when you asked me so many questions and I asked you can I ask a question you said sure let me ask this finish this point and then ask a question and we moved on to the I never asked my question no I didn't sure I still have a question and now now you made a point when I want to push back and expose how what you're saying is not accurate then you don't want to talk about it that's fine >> sure no I will I will I will come back to that and people are watching I will come back to this right but just to steal the salah thing.

So people don't say that look, oh we we misplaced words in your mouth, right? So just so people understand because we've unraveled this that you pray let's say three times a day and the your salah has so you don't do you just start regime now the Quran says >> this is my personal salah you're asking this is your personal this is how all Quranists as you call us pray this is how I approach my prayers just so that >> so does everybody just do it on their own they just do their own thing >> people people are allowed to understand the Quran to what God is allowing them to understand yes Because your tradition but the salah everybody just does their

own salah. >> Perfect. Perfect. And if there there's exactly and if there is a leader among the group then they're going to go by the way that that man is applying it. But very simply now God says in the Quran do not be loud in your prayer and do not be silent in your prayer. Okay? And find a m way in between. So this is a clear instruction from God in the Quran. Why is it that two of your prayers and you guys are silent when it comes down to the congregation negating the book of God?

>> Okay. As in why do we pray silently? Is that what you're asking? >> Yes. When God said that you can't pray silently, >> right? Okay. Where does he say you can't pray silently? >> In chapter 17. >> Yeah. Go. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. >> I I said the verse, but I'll bring it back. >> Sure. >> At the end of chapter 17, it says >> Yeah. And I'll answer that and I'm going to answer that and and when I answer it I just want you to finalize after I've answered it.

I want you to finalize that point on salah so we can close it move on right just because I don't want people to say well I misrepresent >> what's your point so what's your point >> so my point is like to understand how you so this is what I've understood from your salah that each person and this is why I want to steal man I don't want to straw man it >> each person they do it for their own salah all right so however salah comes to them they do it but how you choose to do it is you generally let's say pray three times times a day.

Okay. And you pray by which is to stand. You do recitation which is once again you said arbitrary as in you like it, you prefer it and a surah and then you go straight into sujud. You only do one s and then you finish the salah. You just do salah. >> It's again you're you're you're trying to structure something that I don't have structured.

>> So it so it just changes every day. that this is what I want on how I am working with God in that moment. This is the beautiful part about salah. It's not supposed to be this overly structured when you're by yourself. >> So some days it has like three, two, some days. >> Some days I'll stay four hours prostrating to my God. >> It's not the prostration. I'm just >> Okay, but that's I started my salah with prostration for two hours because I want to get close to God because that's what God says.

Is that a is that that's exactly >> so there's no so it's just >> arbitrary every day >> the structure the structure is based by the people in the society that have an agreed convention and yes you have so by the people not by God is giving you the guidance and the way that you set it is how the society wants to set it but God has told you the ingredients if you want to start kneeling in your prayer That's perfectly fine.

If you want to start by staining, that's perfectly fine. God has told you why he wants you to pray for the arbitrary structure >> and God is giving you the results of the prayer. He says uh to [Music] that the prayer it stops the immoralities and obscinities and the remembrance of God is greater.

So when you're praying you remember God often and it's actually improving your life drastically. >> Nobody is challenging that. I know nobody's challenging that, but that's the point where it is accurate because if we're not capable of stopping moralities and obscinities, if we're not capable of getting closer to God and what God is saying in the book, therefore our prayer was not accepted. So now the the >> nobody's challenging that part. So I just look somebody said here, see this is what I mean.

I want to clarify. Somebody said he's that am I putting this word in your mouth arbitrary? Just to clarify, arbitrary does not mean random. Arbitrary. There's a distinction in the language between arbitrary and random. So arbitrary is as you put together yourself arbitrarily. So just to be clear, the the salah manifests in a layout that is arbitrary on how you want to do on the day.

Is that >> so? So so for example, I'll paint you a picture. God is uh God is saying something in the Quran that I'm reflecting upon in the day that let's say about this conversation or a conversation I had with someone earlier and I'm reading the Quran and I read a verse that hits really close to home to the heart because I'm reflecting on God's words as he's talking to me as I'm reciting it and I'm I'm instead of sitting in my mind always contextualizing it to history and to other people I'm contextualizing it about myself and what I'm getting guided by God and then that verse becomes very hard for me to hand over where I start to cry because of how beautiful the word of what God says.

So in that moment, I just want to prostrate to my Lord. So no. So yes, in the middle of my prayer, I'm going to prostrate and I'm going to glorify him and I'm going to thank him and I'm I'm going to praise him and I'm going to love him and I'm going to get like I'm going to I'm going to express my heart and then after I have my little moment with that verse that God has just allowed me to read, I'll stand up again and then I will carry on the chapter. Yes, a lot of people have questions about our prayers, but I guarantee you the people who pray the way that we show Muhamad the Quran prays, we get a lot of positive feedback on what they're saying.

They're saying to me, it's like I feel like I've prayed for the first time in my life. And the other thing is the people who want to make fun of our prayers. >> Listen, nobody has been making fun. Yeah. And nobody has said what you're saying is is everybody agrees with what you're saying about the Quran making you cry. I think that's beautiful. I think may Allah grant that uh to everyone. >> But just to answer the question >> is it set on the day?

Is it set on the day? >> No, it is in the moment. So it's something >> in the moment. Sorry. Set in the moment. Sorry. >> It is it's it's going with what is being revealed to you in the moment. Now I understand the way that this is looking because of the way that is being questioned. And that is why I understand what is being done. I know that you're not ill. And I understand what is the move from behind what you're asking.

This is why it's not it's not I'm I'm not an individual where it's like I'm walking into a room or I'm not >> I don't want to make you look I don't want to make you uncomfortable. So let's move on. >> I'm not uncomfortable but but there has to be a back and forth for people to understand when you're questioning me and you're just going to keep pressing and keep pressing. The point is to do something that is called an undercutting defeater. So for you it's you want to show that that position is so emotional and it's so arbitrary and it's not set on standard and everybody does what he wants and therefore the tradition intention >> oh man okay but I can read between the lines so I asked you a very simple question that

>> but you can read somebody's intention God tells us you will know them by the tone of the voice you know you could see so there's certain things that we can read now there is okay >> so the reason just There is a point there is a point that I want to Travis that you can pray like the Sunnis as well. You can stand and pray the Sunnis exactly how the Sunnis pray. There's absolutely no problem that there is some words that you shouldn't say because it's not from God.

>> Okay. Sure. Now just to clarify the reason look anybody can look Muhammad Auna Muhammad look on last week we spoke and the whole basis of this is for me to allow you to steal man your case uh this is something we said last week this is something I said as I preface today's discussion this is you know everybody has questions about Quranist only so it's saying look steel man your case you know you present it in the best possible way that's why salah is an important one and from what I understood from what you said and what people can obviously is

that you did say look listen it's in the moment not on the day in the moment >> arbitrarily but in the moment based on your iman and your kind of engagement so you know if you if you're in a in a heightened iman stage you might pray more if you're in a less let's say not not so much or you've got other things to do, work commitments, you might just pray one raka, maybe some days you pray four, but you don't really care because the numbers are irrelevant.

>> And the duration, yes, it's about the duration. >> And that is how you pray. And everybody else prays their own version and they're entitled to pray their own version. >> And you don't see the the the kind of element of chaos in that that like that's a a question that people will put to you that you don't see as a community. How could you have the need for structure as a community? Is that not essential?

>> So the need for structure of a community. Yes. And that's why we have an imam to lead the prayer. But in your house by yourself with you and your lord, there is no need for that structure. That's the whole narrative. So are we talking about congregation or are we talking about me praying? So when I told you in do you not feel even you as a person like me as a person not just me as a person psychology teaches us that habit is essential to the human being.

>> It is isn't it because like if you don't have a structure you this is why routines get people to places >> because they have a routine. >> How do I not have a routine? >> No no you probably do. So I was asking that is it just arbitrary in the moment? So if everything is done on the day in the morning, >> how are you how are you going to overly structure your conversation with God? Because what what is the word salah? What what is the what is the uh literal meaning of the word salah?

>> Sure. Tell us what you tell. You're you're the Arabic teacher, >> right? Yeah. I mean it means to pray. Linguistically it could mean some people have said to come second. Some have even linked it with things like an element of sorry >> dua >> of dua. Yeah to pray that's what I said to pray is dua >> right so so perfect so why would I structure other than what god has given me so in regards to the Quran giving us verses that are very clear about the prayer god is giving us the tools that we need so this overly structure and this emphasis on the actual physical

activities that people do in their prayers and they're not focusing on the actual spiritual concept those individuals are not praying so we have a lot of sunnis we have a lot Sunnis that do all the actions perfectly. Yeah. As soon as the conversation is done, they're out doing obscenities and immoralities and thus they did not pray. So it's not about the structure and it's not about the physical content of the prayer. It is about that connection and what God is giving us in the physical structures which is the prowing, the kneeling and the staining.

Is that necessary? >> It's there to amplify and to bring you closer. That's why God says for example prostrate and get closer. Okay. It's not just to clarify it's and so I've understood it correctly. The structure within salah like sujud and is that necessary or is that is that recommended?

>> It's there's no structure. These are components of the prayer that needs to be done, but it's not structured where there's set one, two, three. God is telling, >> but are they necessary? >> They're part of the prayer. They're part of the prayer when God. >> Yes. So God is telling you what. So just like how washing before your prayer isn't necessary. God clearly tells us how to wash in the Quran. Wash your face is >> is necessary.

>> So wash your face, wash your hands, wipe your head, and wipe your feet. So but then we when we look at the tradition there's things that are added in there which are not part found in >> what >> okay >> so what about things like in that sense in Ramadan then how do you uh do the same thing is it like like what violates a fast and what doesn't and how do you arrive at the say >> eating and drinking and sexual intercourse will invalidate your fast because that's what you're fasting from.

So that's a very good push back question. So when God is telling you you can't eat, drink and uh approach your wives or spouses during your fasting, you >> just to clarify like which verses are you referring to? >> This is in chapter two. >> Yeah, bring them up. Let's see. Because the reason I'm asking is because if we're just going by the understanding of the verse, I understand and I don't disagree with you because these are the rules that everybody agrees on that you know that you don't eat, you don't

drink, uh you refrain from sexual intercourse. But the verses of the Quran, if it's each person is entitled to just approach the Quran with their own understanding, >> just to say that look, you can you do these things afterwards, why does the it where does it specifically negate them happening before? I'm just curious on that as a question.

>> I know it sounds obvious. Yeah. Read the read the verse and let's let's >> sure. >> Okay. So >> the reason being is if we're saying to everybody that now this is just a question that look if we say to people look when it comes to salah I want you all to approach and just do it however it comes together for you. You know it it doesn't have to be the same. Why does it have to be the same for fasting then?

>> Okay. So God because there's implicit verses and explicit verses. A lot of the verses about the prayers there's a lot of implicit behind it. Here it's explicit. Lawful >> let's go. >> Lawful for you is the night lawful for you is the night of the abstinence to go after your wife after your wives. Therefore at night it's lawful. In the morning it's not lawful. >> But it doesn't say in the morning it's not.

>> So what do you implicitly understand? >> No. But I thought we're going just by the Quran. So if you just show me from the Quran. >> That's fine. So so in in the way that you understood it, right? Listen, this is very simple. And the way that you understood it, you you you're assuming that God is not telling you translation just for people as well. >> Okay. Yeah. So what do you understand here that in the night of the abstinence?

Yeah. That it's halal. Therefore the understood during your that it's haram. That it's not something. >> It doesn't say that though. It doesn't say that. >> So why would God state this? This is just if it's legal in the morning. >> I'm just asking you. No, I'm just asking you that you that did you not a moment. No, listen, brother Muhammad. The reason I'm saying this is a moment ago when we almost had crossed when we almost crossed, you said to me that you know, do not attribute lies to Allah saying he said something when he did not say it.

So you're saying here Allah said that but he didn't say it in that verse. Now you could say I inferred it. >> Yes. >> But you can't say he said it. >> No he is making it very clear by the negation. >> No it's not making it clear. Making it clear would be to say it. >> That's fine. Listen listen listen. So there is a concept of reason right. So but you said the Quran only is sufficient. >> Yes. The Quran is sufficient. So excuse me. Now you alone is sufficient for your guidance.

You still have to use your eyes, you know. You still have to use your mouth and your head. >> No, but is it necessary? Without that, it's incomplete. >> I guess breathing is the Quran incomplete. I'm breathing as well. I'm not trying to say you're you're trying to play games. No, I'm not. No, not finish a point. >> Of course. Please, please, please do. So it says anyone who's reading this verse is understanding that now something is permissible.

If it was always permissible during the whole day then God is giving you empty language. There's a reason why God is putting it in the Quran because it's >> but he hasn't said it though >> because it's negating to you. So and as you go further it stays to you very clearly. >> This is called adverse judgment. It's called adverse judgment. It's called implicit. >> I can't finish a verse man. I can't finish a a point. >> Please do. Please do. Please do. No, it's okay. You keep saying please do and then I started to talk and then you're going to tell me about the the abstract points that I'm making.

>> Sure. But just so what look to clarify a point earlier in this conversation when we were looking at an exact definition of a word which Allah does say n and it could be understood in let's say many ways meaning the prophet meaning Quran meaning guidance meaning >> he has >> your response was that the Quran negates it but and which I challenge but you said don't ascribe to Allah that which he has not said specifically so Allah has not You said specifically said >> you're missing the information because you keep interrupting me and not listening.

You said >> I apologize if let me let me not let me finish up. Can we get through one point without being interrupted? >> Let's speak on this point. Let's clarify. >> So when I said do Iute a lie about God, it's because you're saying the best of mankind. That word there best of mankind is the word where I'm saying that you're attributing a lie. I was saying that you're interpretation.

>> Why is that a lie? When I said to you that it's inferred, >> it's inferred from the worst. Mercy for the whole world is the best of mankind. Nobody else has that. Nobody else has that title. >> I can't. Okay. So, when he's being inferred in that position, the word best is qualifying actual like account where at this point someone else can be better than him in regards to however you want to explain it.

So you don't have solid you don't have actual solid grounds to stand off by saying him best especially when you say and oh my god man I can't land a point >> I can't land a point like I honestly I can't I can't land a point like I I haven't finished point so so what's the point that I'm making >> so the point you're making is that you say this verse cannot it cannot be inferred from it that he is the best of creation.

Now put that aside. We accept your thing of not accepting inference. >> But now you're going around in these circles and you're not listening to the point that I'm making. So you're talked you talked about something in regards to attributing lies to God. You want to say that Muhammad is favored. He's a mercy to the people. Sure. But all of that cannot infer that now he's all of a sudden the best when there are verses negating that.

>> Can you decide what >> one minute man one minute one minute because there are verses and your duas that people say in the sunnah that negate that where they put Abraham above him and even in the books when someone came to the prophet and said to him the best of creation Muhammad allegedly said that I that is Ibraimisam. So in your own books, you're showing that Abraham has more favor than Prophet Muhammad.

And in the Quran, it shows that. So when you're going to say the word best of creation, it's it's it's debatable. Now, we're talking about the we're talking about there's no >> look, you could say such and such a people have inferred from this verse this. I disagree with them. But to that you said that no, there's no inference to be made. Nobody can infer it. Now you are saying how do you know how people's minds work?

Some people I infer it from that. Now you say well look I no that's wrong. It's not even I disagree with your inference. It's wrong. Now I asked you what breaks the fast and can you show me where Allah says this? Now you show a verse where Allah does not say it. Now you say oh but you can infer it. So I said but I want you to show me through the Quran where Allah says it.

So when lawful for you the night of the abstinence to lust after your wives. So this inference is not is not accurate >> that therefore when he says lawful for you is the night of the abstinence the fasting to go after your wives. They are covering for you and you are covering for them. God knows that you have been cheating yourself. So he has forgiven you and has pardoned you. So copulate with them now and seek what God has decreed for you and eat and drink.

Eat and drink until the threadish white becomes clear to you. Okay. From the black thread of dawn, then conclude the abstinence at night. So you're saying that this verse is clearly telling you that during the morning during the morning that you can have sex with your wives. Is that that's what you're understanding from this verse? Be honest. >> No. So no, I'm I'm being very honest with you. It's not I'm not saying it allows you to do that. I'm saying you can No. No. Listen.

You can infer but the verse doesn't explicitly say. So you're using reason to complete what is missing in the verse. The verse does not say this. The verse does not say you cannot have intercourse during the day. It does not say this. >> So let me present to you what you're doing. So you're going so lawful for you is the night of the abstinence to lust after your wives. Oh okay. So wives are there and therefore it is talking about uh the best wife you have.

Look what I'm what I'm trying to say to you look uh uh Muhammad is that by your principle the you see inul you have something known as you have is you have right you have right now this what you're speaking about is the fifth category which some don't accept and some do it's called okay inul this is called adverse judgment that when a verse comes It states something but we can take the adverse ruling to also and assert that as a ruling.

Now this is practiced by faukah of Islam. I too accept malif but it is not from the ibara from the explicit reading. It's not even from the dalala or the ishara in that sense. You're taking it as a as an adverse judgment. Now look that's fine but my point of saying this is that look you were discussing a moment ago about clear readings of the Quran. Would it be acceptable for me to say because a moment ago you said look for salah Quranists can come and whatever they engage the Quran with like you engage it like let's say another Quranist comes here now his name I don't know let's say some some person I'm going to pick a

random name from here right called somebody is called jetim right now this person comes and he says look I'm going to interpret salah like this could he interpret s differently >> yes >> so he could say to him. He feels that he during the day doesn't violate. >> Sure. And guess what? So the way that this works Yeah. The way that this works, whatever, that's what I want you to understand.

Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. And whatever you're going to be presenting yourself in the day of judgment with what God is revealing to you. And if you had an understanding that you could have been wrong and you persisted to be wrong, then you're going to get what you built. You see what I mean? So if somebody gives a five minute prayer, he's going to get the reward of a five-minute prayer. And if somebody's going to pray for 30 minutes, that's the reward that he's going to get. If somebody has a understanding of the verse and it's an incorrect understanding, he's going to get the consequence of that understanding.

And if somebody has a better understanding, he's going to get the reward both here and in the hereafter. So this is how the book itself is a living book. The closer you are to the truth, the better your life is. If somebody is going to come and tell me that abstinence means that you can't talk for the day and you show them clearly in the Quran that it's talking about sex, it's talking about food, it's talking, that's what and that's fine. That's fine. If you want to play that kind of argumentation, I'm just saying that person came and said this is talking about hypothetically.

So if a person said that's about the night but it doesn't say it's not in the day interpretation now >> cool but according to me and you if someone made that interpretation what would you say >> I would say it's wrong I would say it's wrong because obviously I believe in the Islamic tradition and the tradition has taught us >> the tradition the the verse is not sufficient to tell you that >> is sufficient no so the verse has an adverse judgment >> so what a minute so you're you're agreeing that the verse is sufficient and you're arguing that because the person is not understanding what the verse is clearly saying.

I'm going to need your tradition. >> When a person, you see, because when a person says, So, here's the argument. The argument is saying that there are verses of the Quran, not all, but there are some verses of the Quran that do require explanation by the people that are of the tradition. Allah says in the people of revelation no it's of the people of the Quran the people who have who who else are referring to no it's no but the people of the tradition the people of the tradition of the Quran that have studied it the tradition the

the the you don't have to agree with all of them I don't we don't agree with all of them but they highlight rules okay look let's not I don't want to just you know go off stay too much on one point. Look here's an interesting point. This theory that look cuz and sorry the final concluding point is if everything in the Quran is already locked does our reason have some play?

Would you say that the voice of reason has some play in um in that or is it that it because if you say it does then doesn't it mean that some of the Quran is dependent on an explanation and if so then whose explanation better than that of the the prophet and the Sahaba and the fukah and and including uh us participating as well I'm not removing our particip participation but I'm saying or would you say the Quran does not have any engagement dynamic with the voice of reason in in its understanding.

>> So when it comes down to the understanding of the Quran and the reason reason >> reason and logic is the reason why uh uh uh Ibraim was capable of jumping away from polytheism breaking through the programming of poly polytheism. It was reason and logic and then it was the listening the hearing was where he was capable of understanding the curriculum that he had to follow because he broke through the polotheism.

So reason is 100% more very important as God states in the Quran and is mentioned more. So you're absolutely right that the person's reason is what's driving his faith. Even as people that are following the traditions that they don't think is reason is important if it's not making a reason to them they themselves cannot accept it. So yes has a huge effect >> and I'm and I'm very much with championing the voice of reason as were many of the Salaf like Imam Malik right now but if our reason is an active uh

has an active dynamic with revelation which I agree it does as well then surely by that logic my by that logic my reason alone does not it's not going to be necessarily the the the ultimate reason that has come on earth since revelation. So those who have gone before me that have contributed to the understanding beginning with the best of creation, the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam teaching us revelation, the Sahabah, uh the the

everybody, >> wouldn't that whole reservoir of their understanding be valuable as well? Bring bring me the explanation of Prophet Muhammad. >> Okay, let's take a verse. No, >> let's take a verse. I'm asking you for the of the Quran of Prophet Muhammad.

Not of not. >> Let's go with the Quran then. Let's go with the Quran. There's a verse in Imran verse 188. >> I asked you a question. Here's here's the here's the verse. Let me give you and let's see if >> bring an explanation of the prophet and let me give you that. >> No. >> So this >> explanation of the verse all >> let me answer it then let me answer and then decide if I've got it wrong.

You haven't let me answer it and because you've said look bring a verse and an explanation. So here is a verse right verse 188 Allah says those people don't cons don't allow those people uh or they should not those who have joy who who find happiness right with what they have done and whatever.

And this we're going with the generic meaning of course and those who wish to be praised over things that they haven't even done. So and remember this is a a full verse so it's generic like you believe in uh love then you believe in any you know bringing our understanding we read the Quran right so it's love obviously you don't believe in subul so that in why it was revealed but rather for the generic meaning of the Quran which is of course welcome right

so let not those people who take delight what with what they have done and those who love to be praised by things they haven't accomplished. Like let's say I love to be praised by you know somebody says oh did you do oh you're that was so amazing you're so amazing but actually I haven't even done those things do not consider these people to be safe from a punishment indeed they shall have a great punishment now here a lot of the Sahabah right they naturally found this very

challenging they said that yahool Allah doesn't all of us doesn't each one of us love to be praised by things that they have not done so how does this verse so are we going to be punished so the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam said no this does not mean that yeah even though the apparent reading of the verse does mean that you would agree with me any person who can read Arabic would agree that the apparent this is why the Sahab are problematized that if they found it challenging because the apparent verse does mean anybody who loves being praised by something they hadn't been done will face a severe punishment from God.

Now although this apparent meaning the prophet said no that's not what it's talking about and he's talking about people of tyranny and people who tyrannize others and people of great arrogance and and people of that it's not talking about generally everybody generally from human fra loves being praised even if it's by something they haven't done but they the praise always feels nice that's even though the apparent reading of the verse suggests that that's not what it means.

How would you understand this verse then? >> It's you literally explain what the verse is saying. >> No, but the verse actually says yeah that you would be punished. >> It's it's not it's telling you the things so that you would repent from. So it's no it doesn't. It says right doesn't say anything about repenting.

>> God is telling you that the Quran is it's healing to whatever. >> It doesn't say that in there. It doesn't say that in there. I'm telling you to >> quoting another verse. So let me >> No, let's talk about this one. What does this point? Let me Yes. So God is saying so the individuals that are happy and exalting with when they with what they have and they are wanting to be praised these individuals have okay so God is telling >> it's a sin to love being praised.

So God is telling you about those individuals that have these characteristics and a believer should not have the ah it doesn't say that bit. It doesn't say that I'm telling you the implications of the verse. So it's very clear >> reading right there. So he sorry God has brought down the book with clear verses and then he has detailed them explained them.

He's explaining the verses. So here God is telling you about those and God is telling you about so or and then the same thing about one minute one minute one minute >> yo bro let me actually explain the point before trying to get it. Thank you. So here there are many examples in the Quran in regards to who God is talking about.

You have the concept of where which he was from the part of people of Moses and they said the same words to him do not be so joyful with what you've been given. Okay. And then the other thing is do not like do not purify yourself. God is the one who's going to uh purify whom he wants. Here now it's saying that those people like to be praised. Some people like to be praised for what they have not done.

So this is for you to recognize that if you're doing that to stop doing that so that you don't have a painful punishment. Yes, it is. >> So just to like being praised by things you've not accomplished. >> Yes. So >> so let's say for example somebody you've done some work and you've not done the and you get praised. This is a major sin in Islam according to you. >> Where is the word major coming in? I'm it's still you will have >> yes for the people.

>> Okay. So God I don't like to be praised. I don't love to be praised for things that I love. I get scared. But but this is what the Quran is. The Quran is telling you verses to scare you. So that when you're scared, you go and get closer to the remembrance of God. And then you know the things that God does not like. So you start to avoid it. So now I don't like being praised for things that I have done. And I don't extremely happy.

>> Not you see not what you like. What does this verse say? Right? I'm not saying you don't like being praised. I'm saying this verse says so don't do that. That's what So don't do that. Yes. The people who are going to So the people who are going to do that, that verse is fulfilled upon them. Anyone who's doing that, that verse is fulfilled upon them and they have a painful punishment.

>> Any person who dislikes being praised. >> So do you see that there's two conditions? So, so let me so let me >> There's two You see the two person came to you. >> You see the two conditions or is it one conditions? I mean I mean I you guys keep telling me to calm down and everyone's saying to me I'm not I don't understand like every time I try to make a point I keep getting cut off and I'm just making a simple point and he's thinking I'm running away. The thing that is very simple to understand running away.

>> Oh don't go to that verse. Don't go to that verse. Let's talk about this verse. But it's very difficult to have a conversation when you're not allowing me to express myself. >> Sure, please do. Yeah. So, just look. So, what I highlighted to you was here is a complete verse. Look, >> here's a complete verse of the Quran, >> right? Complete verse, right? Now, look, in this verse, it highlights that those people who take joy in what they have done or what they accomplished or has been brought to them.

And the second part and those who love to be praised by something they haven't necessarily they haven't achieved. So let's say for example a person came to me and said or let's say they went to somebody and said oh you know oh that's such an amazing guy so generous. Now imagine he wasn't really that generous but he liked the fact that he was praised. Now this verse says that those who like being praised by that which they've not done.

>> Yes it does. Yes it does. You see the do you see the and >> yeah so there's two >> and they love >> yeah and they okay so the first meaning the first condition >> so the first one that those who have who are pray who find joy in what they've done or what they've accomplished >> okay so if you so yeah so if you find what they've been given >> sure what you've been given what whether it's accomplishments whether it's >> like oh my god this is so awesome look at how amazing this is this is so cool this So cool.

Yes. Stuff like that. >> So if you're glad So if you're glad you find joy in something you've been given joy, it's not about satisfy. There's a difference. >> Yeah. Is Yeah. Is not a negative verb, >> right? So it's not a negative verb. The word is a little different than just No, it isn't. Right. Inah Allah says on that day the believers will find >> Yes, that's that's where the is on the day of judgment.

Not here. Perfect. Thank you. In the worldly life there's no no look listen that is speaking about the believers once that on that day that in the believers once they've been given once takes over what is it even though they've lost material riches >> yeah the victory of the believers is that I'm not the victory of them we have to understand the lang language for us to make at proper judgment.

So when the word is about is it about material wishes here? Is it about is it about is it about material wishes? Look listen. >> Listen, listen, listen, listen. But God is qualifying. You took me to verse 30 in regards to and you told me very simply that they're right with the victory of God and the ones on the day of judgment here God is so it's material wishes and prayed >> by you claim that there's two if we're correct is not a negative term >> in the context that's being displayed

here. Yes. Not by default. >> Cool. And the thing that we need to understand very simply here, God is telling you about the people who are buying into the worldly life. They have these two characteristics. The characteristics of being extremely joyful, being extremely joyful for what they were giving. And they want to be praised about things that they don't do. These are individuals that are buying into the worldly life. And that's why that's why these individuals will have these that's why these individuals will have a painful punishment.

So now as a believer who's reading the Quran and you've been warned so now you don't want to find joy in these things in the way that God has presented Lord you want to be praised for who what you what you have not done. So it's very straightforward and and and >> just to be clear just so I've understood you clearly >> so any person who finds joy in something that they've not done and something that they have achieved as well right be that wealth or whatever any person who finds any joy will find an excruciating punishment from God for that joy that is your belief you believe >> again the the verse has two conditions you keep playing >> which are those two which are those two

no I mentioned both I said by achievement of whether it's wealth or whatever by accomplishment and by that which you've not done you find joy in being praised for it in being praised for it. >> Perfect. They love >> like being praised, right? >> Yeah. You have a painful punishment from God that >> you will be punished by God for that. >> Yes. Yes. >> You don't you don't find that to be the opposite of merciful.

>> No. Because God is telling you right here that's what happened to the voice. What happened to the voice of reason? How is 100% that is because the thing that God presenting to you God is presenting to you those individuals that are buying into the worldly life. Those are the people who are say worldly life. Yeah. They just But is that not most people?

>> Is that not most people? >> Sure. Sure. Sure. >> Is it? So, so you feel Allah is the whole message of the Quran. God God is saying to you that it's okay for you to walk into the land, right? Is that what you're saying? >> Right. So, look. >> No, no, no. We can we can we're just taking one verse out of isolation and we're going to focus on this. We're not going to use the Quran to explain the Quran. >> No, you because you asked. Look, >> of course he is.

>> Is this not most people? Is this not most people? >> No. Not believers. Believers most people >> don't feel most hell, aren't they? >> Most people are mushiks. Most most of the people okay see what I mean God has already God has already put the majority of the world on the back foot I didn't do that but God is extremely merciful and extremely tolerant he >> merciful how is that extremely merciful >> because he has given them so many everyone most of the world is on the back foot but he has given them so many exits on the >> he's going to punish most people of his

creation how is he the most merciful Uh, is he or he's not? >> You just said that most people are all mushri and fick and going to hell. >> I didn't say that. Did I say that? God is saying that. I'm using the verses of the Quran. What's that mean? The majority will not believe in God except they are mushiks. So relying on things other than God, associating to God. That's what God.

>> How is that making Allah the most merciful? God God is tolerating them and he's allowing them to carry on and he's giving them the books and he's giving them punishment is because they didn't choose to listen or reason and they argue against the verses of God. So they're worthy of the punishment. They have been given messengers. They have been given the message. They have been given the warning. They have been told who they are and they just don't listen. They just want to go on with what they found their forefathers doing and they end up falling.

It's very simple. That's why they got all destroyed for us. >> And but isn't that also by the verse? But everything is by the will of Allah. So Allah is >> Yeah. But perfect. >> Yeah. Yeah. So okay. So God has put the attributes for somebody to be a believer. That's what God has willed for. So somebody who listens, somebody who turns to God, somebody who doesn't lie, somebody who who who observes the word of God, those people, that's who God has willed to guide.

If somebody's a liar, if somebody's arrogant, if somebody turns away or doesn't listen those that's who God has willed to not guide. That's why God says so you see these are these are standards that God has put that's because it's not random, >> right? So look no so obviously it leads to that same argument. You see my the reason I highlighted this was not to go into the destiny talk but it was to highlight that look one of from what I understood and maybe I understood it inaccurately that look one of the key uh reasons I'm assuming or the kind of uh

impetus for the Quran only movement was that they were finding certain aid that they felt were not uh reflecting compassion. This is what I assume. Now presumably that's obviously not uh the core element but I assumed it was because they were finding hadith that they felt were not compassionate but if only to be driven to a point of view where in this verse and the reason I cited this verse is because you said show me one verse of the Quran where the prophet's taps made that difference and I gave you a verse which by the way and I didn't even ask that do you know what I asked I said bring them the prophets I

said I No, no, no. Then hear me. Hear me out. So you, that's my point. You're not listening to me. You made a point that we need the of the prophet. I said, show me it. You took me to one verse and you showed me one. Can you give me the book of Muhammad Muhammad? Look, that's not what happened. Let me tell you what happened. I said to you, is reason the voice of reason a key component in engaging the dynamic of revelation?

You said it is. I said then by that logic would not the reason of others who went before us also be valuable. So you said well uh give me an example or something where this would show that value. In any case I brought this verse which if you read it by its apparent which >> almost all I've not known any person to have actually believed this verse differently to what I said right this verse I've not known any person to have taken this verse.

With all due respect I you said to me that there's the explanation of the taken and I asked you I bro let me just point just let me finish the point. So you told me about the prophets let me finish the point. No I didn't because you keep interrupting to commenting me and you're not listening to what I'm saying. I simply asked you to bring me.

So it's a book that is explaining the Quran and and you even said okay open chapter 3. I said you're pointing me back to the Quran. I'm telling you bring me Quran a book where it says the the clarifications Muhammad you have that book when I'm saying to you it's not preserved. We can go talk about niche nish but look you're strawman.

>> Okay. So to say that look, I've brought you on here to steel man your case, not to straw man it. I the point I made to you and I say it again and people can rewind it. I said that is not reason important in interpreting the understanding you said it is. I said by that logic is not the reason of those who went before us for 1400 years plus this is my wording. I said with all of their dedication to Islam is not their reason also valuable to which you said no you didn't really accept their reason now you said well okay bring me something where give an example now forget the verbatim now the point was

here is a verse of the Quran that by its apparent reading right seems very you know it's it's kind of like what does this verse mean now I did highlight that I've not known any person who's taken this verse on its apparent meaning right and they there is a hadith of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam explaining this differently and that's what everybody has gone with now when I read it to you you said if and correct me if I'm wrong that no you go with this apparent reading any person who is praised by something they've not done or they love the accomplishments and they're praised by will be punished by God for just uh loving that praise now that you by the psychology of humans

>> yeah that is the verse >> that is the we've read it time and This is it. But when you translate it, it's not just loving with what they have. No, it's the ones who love to be praised with what they've not done and they are so exaltant with what they've been given. That's most people have a pain. What? So it doesn't say yeah exing.

Okay. Yes. So look now the the point is that this by default psychology is most human beings most human beings love being praised. So according to this verse most people will face an excruciating punishment >> right now that's fine that's your interpret that's your taking your not even inter that's your reading of the verse >> look shukran shukran look what I want to say is you have given an incredible amount of time today despite us being late >> let's actually let me actually answer with what you've just presented so I I understand how this conversation was going and that's why some individuals that are in the chat they might be saying certain things is because I

understand this methodology because we have to face it constantly where they want to negate the beautifification the how beautiful and clear the Quran is by presenting hypothes >> all right >> nobody's negating for me >> look I don't I would love to finish up point look listen but you have no >> I heard what you were saying I said do not straw man do not straw man like I've been trying to with you.

>> No, you didn't do not. >> No, no, what you're doing what you're doing quite simply what you're trying to do simply is what most of the Sunnis do is they try to present hypothetical to bring hypothetical and they think actually that's debatable. >> I've not judged your intention. I told you don't let me finish. You don't let me finish. You understand that?

>> Now you keep saying look >> you don't let me finish. You keep saying this. Look, no, don't straw man what I'm actually saying. >> But I would like to speak speak my point without you interrupting me. >> No, but if you're going to No, but if you're going to straw, man, it's not going to work because I've been respecting you. >> Don't judge my intention. I've not been judging your intention. I've been asking you to clarify. But but but you see the point that what I am gathering from this conversation is that you keep making these hypotheticals that you yourself don't believe in to try to negate on how clear the Quran is when you already had the same that I have.

I am reaching Lord man. Let me straw man you just let me straw man you and let me finish. >> No no no I won't. >> Can I just finish the point without being straw man? >> Look if you're going to steal man cool. So so so you're saying that for you to understand the position that you're in. Okay. It is the tradition that is clarifying these questions that you have presented and that's why you believe them. Even though me and you are new.

>> I've said I've not said that. I've said there's some verses on the >> I'm still manning bro. I'm steel manning. So I'm presenting it to you from how I understood it. So let me finish for the love of God bro. Likew I'm asking you for and to just let me finish a point without you being so flustered every time I open the concluding point because at this stage you are maybe you're very tired.

>> It's not about being tired. You're being very disrespectful and I understand this kind of >> I'm being disrespectful. Yes. Yes, you are because you keep interrupting me when I'm making a simple point and you are trying to push I understand your position then. >> Yes. But if you screw on it, I will interrupt. >> Steal man your position doesn't mean I have to say it verbatim. >> No, you have to say accurately >> then let me explain it.

>> Sure. >> Sure. So the presentation that you're presenting that there are some verses in the Quran where it can lead for some subjective reasoning that it might be difficult for someone to understand. So we rely on the wisdom and the tradition of those that came before us who explain the Quran that attributed to the prophet Muhammad that solves these issues that you have presented. Correct? >> Or to other scholars the whole tradition of 1400 years.

>> Correct or false? >> Right. No. So you said that. No. So you you said it shorts. I said >> look allow me to allow me to phrase it then because it's my my view isn't it? So the view is that we have a tradition in Islam of 1,400 plus years of scholarship. Now this is invaluable. This begins from the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam himself from his teachings from the sunnah from the hadith.

It comes down through the sal and right through the the whole 1400 years. Now this is invaluable. Now this gives guidance, sheds guidance on certain verses that maybe the understanding may appear challenging to a person that reads these select verses. Yes, of course. Now to negate that to throw that tradition away to me is an entire disservice to Islam.

>> Cool. So what I was trying to present to you is that you have presented situations where you want to rely on any someone else's understanding which they attribute to the prophet for these small select problems that you have presented but the overall of the message of the Quran does not have these issues and even with the things that you have presented the majority of it we were already in agreement before what you presented and I didn't need the hadith nor I needed the tradition to understand that position.

So but quite simply quite simply I would disagree. >> Mhm. >> Yeah you have been >> I disagree. Yeah >> because let's just so today's discussion has shown look some of the conversations we got into especially the application of Islam. We began with salah. A lot of the things you chose were all taught through the tradition you mate >> right that you just include before.

No, I've been allowing you please allow me. >> Sure. Go on then. >> Okay. So what you were trying to present earlier with what exactly you're presenting now which you said that I wasn't allowed to uh to read between the lines on what you're saying. So you're allowed to read between the lines not to judge my intention. No >> the problem I don't care about your intention. I'm trying to >> but you're judging my intention saying I don't care but then staying in between I'm judging your intention and then I don't care about it's not about the intention.

It is about the game. It's about the game plan. Yes I understand the game plan. So so okay cool. So the game plan is to show that that >> you are judging the intention. >> It's not the intention. It is the game plan. >> No, your strategy. I don't know if you're being I don't know if you're being ill intended or if you're meaning for good. That is not for me to know. But I could see the game plan and the way that is being played out.

So I can foresee it. And the the thing that bothered me is that when I'm trying to clarify my position, I just see you pushing on your game plan. And it I understand why. But let me just simply show you what the biggest difference is. You can appeal to your tradition. You your tradition. And I'm sorry that I have to say that because it's not mine. You can appeal to your tradition and you can It's not disrespectful. It is yours.

It's not mine. >> Disrespectful. I never said it's disrespectful. What I said to you earlier on was you were refusing. Refusing to call it the Islamic tradition. >> Please God, let me just finish a point. God, please let me finish a point. So when you're talking about this very tired now, I take it. >> No, man. Because it's like because this is your whole point. I understand how this works. I understand the psychology of people with you. But that's fine. I'm actually being quite patient with you and I should have left a long time ago.

But the thing that I was trying to say very simply is that the tradition that you'reing the tradition that you're appealing to, let me finish. Let me finish the point. Thank you. So the tradition that you're appealing to, we found many errors in it. >> You ever finish a point? >> You don't you don't allow me. You You're the one who sits and talks for good 10 minutes, 15 minutes explaining and overanalyzing and and waffling. bit of joyful humor between brothers.

>> But I would like to I would like to actually for like actually finish a point without you having to interrupt. >> I think a whole lot of humanity wants you to finish that point. >> Okay, cool. So as I was saying the tradition that you keep applying to aligning to or appealing to we find holes in it and we find it not aligning with the Quranic narrative. So it is safer for us to not go through guess work and to apply. >> When you say we, you said all of the Quranis have their own interpretation.

So who's the wei then? >> But we are we in unison don't accept the nonsense that >> we you said we all disagree when all Quranists have our own take. So who's the we? >> Yes. Us Quranists as you wanted say that they all agree with your >> with your interpretation when you said they all have their own interpretation. >> God God tells us about the people who are deaf, dumb and blind because they can't listen. So I'm proving to the world that on the other end that I was actually capable of following the conversation.

I'm not saying we that we're all in the same interpretation. We're saying we that we deny your tradition because we unanimously see the flaws in your tradition. So that's why it's not necessary because if it's part of religion, God would have preserved it. >> You said we don't want to contradict the Quran. >> We we said we all disagree in our interpretation. So how could you all see? >> No, we all we all agree that your tradition is flawed. That's what we're we >> How can you all agree in the factors when you all disagree in your interpretations?

>> As if you guys are in agreement with your interpretations. >> No, but I never made that claim. You just made >> I never made that claim. >> You just said we >> Please prove it. No, I said we are in agreement that your tradition is wrong. >> That's the the tradition you want to appeal to. We've seen so much errors in it that it's wrong. Sure. Sure. So, >> no. because of the things that are saying are yes it's against the Quran exactly so you there's two prayers in your tradition of the Quran >> that's fine that is okay in the book of God in the book >> in the book of god in the book of god these difference interpretations is

understandable it is part of it but when it comes down to tradition you're negating the verses of the god so when we talked about prayer I gave you an example which you didn't answer why are two of your pray prayers You're silent when God told you not to. Oh, because daddy in the mosque told us though. But that's not what the prophet gave you because prophet told you do not be silent in the in your prayers. >> See now look ju see just at the end. See you did so well at the end.

You just got there because daddy and the master there's no point being disrespectful to the people because look obviously that's not going to get people anywhere. Uh especially in a dialogue like this. Look I take look I want to say once again Shukran for taking your time out. It has been a very uh I would say a very fruitful discussion. It's been very engaging. Although it's had a lot of energy and passion, but that's because you're bringing passion to the table, Auna.

You must be like, "Oh, I've got passion. I'm bringing it to the table. I like it." You have given a lot of your time and I do apologize for beginning late once again. Right. So, Muhammad Auna, uh may Allah, you know, uh bless you. May he bless us all. May he bless you with the understanding. uh you know may he guide us all right Shukran for taking the time out and expl explaining these things um yeah right so I'm sure we'll have a channel of communication and maybe many of your followers have benefited from this discussion as well that's beautiful why people why people like to go to your channel because thank

you for the work that you're doing you've been a great stepping stone for people to come to us that's that's the truth so this is why people wanted to have a conversation everyone one keeps appealing to how great Bkari Gate is. uh there's some things they don't agree with you and then they eventually see my channel and then they say thank god that uh that you were there in the process to wake them up to what >> maybe many of them will watch this where we've actually had a dialogue >> and you know they'll take a lot of yeah trust me >> you can actually see >> where you know we're because it's it's like you've said that you know we we have a tradition and >> which you can't be questioned about right

>> no we usual because the people watches my people people who watch my channel, they they've seen this countless of times where we get interrogated many many questions on how we apply the Quran. And it's not like we're not quoting things outside of the Quran, we're quoting the Quran. And then when it comes down to asking a simple question about your traditions, we get no answers, nor do we get a room to ask. So it proves that it's just an undercutting defeater and it's not actual uh an exposition.

Because if it's an exposition, then you have to prove to us that why you're on a better stance. I've asked you the question about the prayer and you've still yet to answer. >> Why are two of your prayers silent? >> What was the salah the you said about the salah? Because I don't want you I did say I was going to answer it. What was the question? Sorry. >> Yeah. Yes. >> Why are two of the prayers? Because this was the inherited tradition from the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam as I Malik said. He said that the people he said that the the people around us are the grandchildren and the great grandchildren of the Sahabah who learned it from their fathers who learned it from the fathers who learned it from the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam.

We have a living tradition that has reached us and this taught us how to pray. So of course uh we have the sunnah embodied in the living tradition. That's why we pray in that way. >> So when so when it's told to them follow what God has revealed no we'll follow what we found our forefathers doing is just being applied to you because God what he revealed what God has revealed he said do not be silent in your prayers and do not be loud in your prayers and you're choosing to be silent because that's what we found our forefathers doing.

No look, you yourself a moment ago said when you approach a verse that a verse has many meanings, right? So this particular verse that you're speaking about, what salah and what where does it specify what salah is talking about? >> It's salah. Salah is understood in the Quran as as where does it specify? You can you can if you like you know just so you feel I have not answered the vers the question you can read the verse to people. Sure.

>> Uh so no Call upon God or call upon the merciful uh for whichever you call upon he has the good names and do not be loud in your prayer and do not be silent in your prayer and find a middle path.

>> And what does that mean here? The loud and the silent. >> Do not be excessively loud. out of his >> When when people are excessively loud, what are they doing? >> They're screaming. >> They're screaming out. Screaming out, aren't they? Screaming out. Out of despair. >> Out of despair. And when And when they're silent, what have they done? Completely silent. They've given up. >> Oh, >> and Allah is saying, "Do not give up on him.

Do not yell in frustration." >> To which means really low. Yeah. Yeah. Do not be but take a middle path. Is that what your tradition says >> or is that your interpretation? >> Is that not what the verse says? >> Is that what your interpretation? Is that your interpretation or is that is that what is that what is that what the ex Jesus says? Because ex Jesus say it's about the prayer because the two prayers that you're talking No saying that this verse came this verse came down because the prophet was silent prayer because no one No, no, that's one.

No, no. If you read Razi, if you read Ash, >> right, you're going to find several. So all of this is no. So >> is that from you as didn't you say the >> isn't that isn't the is from the isn't it? >> Oh so it's not from the prophet >> right son. So taps is the 1400 years of tradition that we have.

>> Is it from the you said you said he's the one who's clarifying the Quran. Is he clarifying? >> So I said to you look and this comes back to the point I asked you a simple question. Does the voice of reason play a role in the in revelation? You said it does. I said by that logic, does not the reason of those who went before us also count? >> Okay. But then you're appealing to tradition, but when the tradition is negating the exesus that you gave me, you're going to say to me that it's not from the messenger from ex Jesus.

I thought it's supposed to come from the prophet. He's the one who's clarifying it. Who clarified it to clarify it and they wrote it down. So if this is not an ex Jesus that the prophet said, so where'd you get that from? It seems like you got it from yourself. So why are we >> Look, Muhammad Muhammad, no Muslim has made this claim ever, right? As far as I'm aware that every single verse of the Quran has had a tap by the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam which was tied in and written down and that was the point that you made so clarify for me.

>> Select verses >> from the prophet. Oh. Oh, select verses. That's not the presentation that you told me. That's a verse that God has brought down. Bring the tons. >> And I've explained it to you. The verse is self-explanatory. >> Mhm. Okay. >> Does it need an explanation? >> Why is the verse begin?

>> No. Look, it begins by saying that call Rhman. >> Where do you call upon Allah? >> In your prayer. >> And Rahman. What does what does prayer here mean? >> Prayer. >> In which prayer? No. Salah. Salah >> doesn't salah. This is when you're crying out to God. >> Oh, salah is crying out to God. >> Look how it begins. Look how it begins.

Call out to Allah. Call out to Rahman. >> Look. So whoever you're calling out to >> So the word means names. >> So what does the word mean? >> You're talking about calling. But but you know very well. You know very well. You know >> this verse very clearly. No look you asked me to explain the verse and I don't want you to say that I didn't explain it. This verse is speaking about people who are crying out to Allah.

It's not speaking about the salawats. Now you can take it to mean that but it does not mean that you know the funny part is even there's no funny part in this right because look you ask me to explain it. You asked me to explain it and I don't want you to say I didn't explain. So now this is speaking by primapasi reading that if you just read the verse this is what it's saying it begins by saying call rahman call Allah where do people do this they cry out Allah is saying don't you don't need to do it in this exasperate in this sense where you are yelling and screaming that you don't need to do it in a way where you appear as though you are disappearing but finally >> he's not talking about the he's talking

about the salah >> but no but Salam means praying out means praying out. Does it not mean that? Did you not just say this a moment ago? >> No, you call upon your Lord, you call >> you said a moment ago is the definition of salah a moment ago and you said it was dua calling out. >> So in doing when you're doing is your fiveawat.

>> Yes. But but exactly see now you're attributing a lie once I'm not attributing a lie. I'm not attributing a lie because even your own traditions talk about so so when you're you're doing it's not a salah >> does it say is is a salah >> sorry >> but does it say in that verse does it say so the set of look is the is the prayer the prayer look it's talking It's talking about you don't need

I was not answering the question. I answered it because I don't want you to feel that I didn't answer and I said I was going to answer it. You said look what is this verse speaking about? This verse is speaking about crying out to Allah. Now you said no you doesn't mean >> it means crying out in prayer. You cry out to Allah >> and and then pray. So is that a salah? >> This is not speaking about theat. I'm not asking about the verse is look.

So look listen brother put the verse to the side is look listen by the way. By the way you see now this is what you're doing. This is what you're doing. I've been steeling your case right. You said right at the end just as I was about to sign off. You made a point that look you wanted to ask me a question. I you you felt I felt you were saying maybe you didn't and I not judging your intention that oh I was running away from answering it.

So I said no no no let me answer the question. So what was the verse? Now you read a verse. Now in another verse as well of the Quran the word that their crying out at the was not that what what was the it was the crying out. right now. Explain. What does means? >> Yeah. Yeah. It was the whistling and the kind of clapping. This is the >> So whistling and clapping is calling out.

>> Yeah. It's a calling out. It's like a chanting. >> Oh, whistling and clap. Whistling and clapping. That's calling out >> because you're chant. No, because you're chanting. You're kind of in this fine calling out. Cool. I'm very in the verse. So you look now you say question the question now you may not like my answer >> no your answer is not aligning to what the Quran is you're giving >> no because it wasn't in line with what you thought >> no this is the truth you had not >> because but it doesn't say in the salah in the verse

>> it say it doesn't speak about >> it's not speaking You do it normally there. So the funny thing is the you said a moment ago the Quran talks every day and you pray and salah by your verbatim quoting you salah is not about structure. You said that you >> but in my salah I'm not I'm not silent in it.

In my salah I'm not silent in it because God gave you the ingredients of the salah and you're you're you're quickly negating it for tradition. >> It's about the fact that you know if it made you cry if it made you it was the calling out to Allah. >> So As I'm saying it out loud, >> you've given you the >> I don't pray silently. >> No, I understand it may not have been the answer you were expecting. So, you had a >> No, because you're not being genuine. I didn't It didn't fit.

>> You're not being genuine. It's your underestimated me on that one. >> No, actually actually your your explanation does not make sense. So, according to Thank you for your time. >> Can I leave off with one uh with one quote from Malik Mal >> from Imam Malik? the M of Imam Malik. Do you read the M of Imam Malik? >> Yeah, I I've read the Bkari. I've read many parts of Bkari and many parts of Muslim and many parts of Malik.

>> Let's you know what? Look, sure. Look, please do. And we got to wrap this up, right? For your sake. >> Yeah. Alhamdulillah. Sure. Yah related to me from Malik from his paternal uncle Abu Su ibb Malik that his uncle's father said I recognize nothing nowadays of what I saw the people i.e the companions of the messengers. May Allah bless him and grant him peace doing except the call of the prayer.

And this is in the book called the prayer. So the >> call of the prayer is not in the Quran by the way. >> Uh hey, I'm not talking about the call of the prayer. I'm saying the sahabi according to Malik. That >> you weren't expecting that one either. >> I thought that was a good one as well. You got to admit, you know, the good ones you got to admit. >> Okay. >> Sorry. >> Yeah. Yeah. Related to me. So in the book of the Malik in the prayer the companion is telling the right is like I don't recognize what these people are doing.

This is not what we did. So by the time Malik was around the religion has already changed. >> Who are these people that he's referring to as these people? >> He's saying I recognize nothing nowadays of what I saw the people the people >> which are the people that he's referring to. So if I say to you, you know, >> when I >> No, no, but when I say alifas, who are the nas I'm speaking about? Is it for example, the people in China?

Is it the people in Africa? Is it the people in Asia? Which are the people he's referring to? Is it humanity as a whole? Who is he referring to? >> The people in regards to who is in front of him? >> Is he referring to No. No. No. Does he say that the people in front of me? >> Sure. So what is it implied as? Please tell. >> It's referring to to certain people that were in governance. Is that showing there in the verse? >> Yes. >> Showing in the tradition. No, in the tradition because we accept the tradition explanation.

>> So can you bring the tradition where Malik is explaining this? >> Yeah, you can. Yeah, you can read the you can read the of Abd you can read these. >> No, but that's these are apologetics. Apologetics. No, I want Malik or or the people who are actually saying I don't want people just like how you gave me apologetics in chapter 17 on what salah is to you which doesn't align with what the Quran says.

It's very easy to say that oh no he's talking about the agents because the tradition said so because some guy gave his opinion 20 years ago 30 years ago. >> No because look Malik in the ma on several occasions is highlighting what the people around him have affirmed. He's also highlighting in the ma that the children have taken from the father that they've taken from the prophet. So all that exists because he's speaking about it. The ma is complete. The muda has 36,000 mahil transmitted from Imam Malik right in there.

He is giving direct chains. There are almost 100,000 mahil. If you take the mahad so if you're going to take he's quoting directly from Malik, right? You're going to have hundreds not at least 100,000 MS maybe not hundreds at least nearing 100,000 ms where Malik is transmitting directly the practice and the dean that the people around him are practicing from the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam.

So to say that they have forgotten everything, what is it referring to? When he says the >> forgotten everything, it's not forgotten. >> That they've abandoned. Sorry, abandoned. >> It's not abandoned. It's they changed. They changed. He changed that he was doing except the prayer >> when Malik prayer. >> By the way, the call to prayer is not in the Quran. The other person. So the one thing that they speaking of, >> right? Oh, fair enough. Okay.

>> Yeah. But there there is there is the concept to calling a prayer, but it's not the same way that you're doing. Now of course the can change >> but I answered but I answered the point that Malik non-stop is relaying the living tradition. So to say well Malik is saying non-stop that the children have taken from the father the practice of the people of Medadina. I hope that helps and answers your question. >> Sure. And if I don't ac if I don't accept Malik am I failing in my religion?

>> I never said that. Once again why would you no >> because because it's clarifying my position. If I don't accept Malik I'm still a Muslim and I'm still capable of finding God and follow So it's not necessary. >> Nobody look why why you spread hate. >> Look, it's not necessary. It's about >> Yeah. Because if you say that people like why would any person say look if you don't follow my m you you you're not a Muslim.

These are different takes. You know when somebody asked Im Malik they said to him about a certain way path to Allah. He said the roads that will lead you to God are many. So look to some people they'll take that road to some people this road we're all on a journey to find Allah inshallah right so shukran once again and leave on that pleasant note of love >> thank you for hosting me and I apologize if it got a little heated >> it gets passionate it's the it's the passion I see you car >> exactly and it is about the book of god and and uh and the appeal to certain things that we just don't accept I find the book of god very compelling and very amazing

>> I agree 100% And as God says, we're supposed to know it like we know our children. So and and um we've sp I've spent so much time with this book that yeah, I can obviously see your passion and I and I see that why the tradition is important to you because to you it's the preservation of this good book. I understand the sentiment behind it and I I can understand the perspective. But we also want to show you that because of all these problems that we are having in this world, this what you consider as an extremist position where we're throwing the whole thing into the the baby in the bathwater.

It's because the Quran is the only thing that's gonna unite us between the Shia, the Sunnis, the Mad and everything. the Quran is the only thing that is going to uh go into >> I think we we 100% agree on and I do want to say as well once again to people that look any person that is coming with a different perspective be it you know almost entirely different it they are coming with and I said this in the beginning preface my the whole show with it that they're coming from a position of love for this dean now we may disagree and we may feel it's a misplaced love or maybe and you may feel

that about my passion I may feel it about yours and other people but the only way forward is through dialogue it is through humanizing people through finding that bond of humanity and you know it doesn't matter sometime and this is why it is always important to even when we get a bit you know heated at times to bring it back down to avoid the disrespect and and look I've been terrible as well in the past and and you Oh, I know.

So, I'm putting my hands up and saying that and and this dunya is a is is a learning curve for us all. You know, it's a journey. So, yeah, I want to say that Allah bless us all. May, you know, and those of you that have been uh very diligently watching, right? It's been going on for quite a while. Allah bless you all, right? Take very good care of yourselves. Uh once again, Muhammad, take very good care of yourself, right?

Those of you have tuned in and likewise and people who want to reach out, you're more than welcome. Uh Patreon is for the onetoone. So if you want to reach out there, you've got the link at the bottom. Uh patreon.comm. Right with that, have a very good evening or a very early blessed morning wherever you are. Amen.