Shaykh Omar Baloch | Cynicism, Consumerism & the Catch 22 of Riba | Mindtrap with Mufti #30

[Music] all right people over in al hamdulillah wa kafa while salat wa salam o allah rasool mustafa well either a buddy latino tomorrow or mombi hotel method will be Arthur Allen Medina testify were bad for Salam alaykoum allah wa salim become first and foremost i'm gonna do an audio soundcheck people I'm just gonna check that this is going out live

let me bring in my gente from Facebook see what's going down right hopefully they should all right they're coming on yep Audio is on point somebody said it's that you told me you doing it well good wow people so let me just check everything else is fine all clear sound alright people by the way also a quick for me gente on Facebook my people I've I've managed to

integrate all your comments and everything into the software today in addition to the comments the stars so I know some of you were sending stars on Facebook but I couldn't see them so my apologies prior to now I couldn't really kind of say shukran or extend my gratitude because I couldn't see on the software you was in I could only see the comments but I have integrated that aspect so you do in it man you do in it and people Allah what an episode let me bring before you first of all by

image this the man the myth people the legend we've got I'm just seeing Oh where's that sound coming in from right so we've got with us tonight chef omar Baloch the man the myth the legend the Imam hailing all the way from New York people America right here with us tonight let me bring him right in ah Salam aleikum Shahana of

wrath from right right sugar and assalamu aleikum Shahana and welcome and sugar and for extending your time to share it on mine trap with us lectures so I thought and then I you know we've been talking for a while trying to play tag I guess you know so I actually benefited from you

people of right so those of you who are not too familiar with chef omar Baloch he is an imam as in he does do imam at by a scholar within islam that's what I mean by Imam but also trained within Jungian psychology he's got a he has a fascination with psychology with CBT cognitive behavioral therapy is a practitioner he's somebody who's very involved in the local community and has

and brings a plethora of experience to the table so Damas Y Caballeros let me present to you ladies and gentlemen the man the myth sure tell us a bit about your journey your journey a bit of your background you learning about Islam maybe some of the kind of tradition you're linked with just to give some of our viewers a greater horizon about you so I was well genetically in Pakistani geographically genetically hahaha yeah my mom is from the

my father is from Desmond fun I was born in Chicago stayed there for a while my dad got a job in salvia our family was in South India so there was a famous school in Arabic school called Minato - shabbiha where I studied for a while my dad had an accident our family you know a head injury we had to move we decided to move to Pakistan so he wouldn't have to work and and you know he needed some time to like in rehab kind of situation while he was there I started studying with dr.

Ahmed when I was like literally thirteen years old and so that was really where my first Islamic studies began there's a whole set of things that happened and I just liked him from the very beginning really actually I started studying with some of the jamming through Hadees did you study with when you say doctor I saw Ahmed you studied with him on a one-to-one personally or do that but what he has is he has a course called wonderfulness of okay and his students and this kid went out there was that song they were teaching this course in quran academy at that time and so I would sit in for those lectures my dad

was in that class also and then over time I became one of his like main students and here in the US for sure and you know when he would come to Chicago dr. sir I'm with you would come to our house and stay there or even one time when he had to you didn't feel like speaking he asked me to speak in his place one time he made a famous comment and it was a state convention in Columbus Ohio before the internet convention we had we had a convention with him you say you know Columbus discovered North America and in Columbus Ohio I have discovered Homer

Baloch he had many students and yeah obviously you cherish you know that type of encouragement then you know a shame around of saying had also given it that time beyond wait did he used to take bay house yes you did ah okay that's interesting yeah that's that's the whole discussion in itself obviously I'm sure but I understand had joined hands with him and that's when you know I was hearing I was in Chicago so every summer we would spend in New York taking classes either giving classes or taking classes I see uh-oh

I had heard coming from Chicago that some really famous scholar has joined hands with dr. Simon well you know I didn't know him but I went to the mustard that was the Queen's Masjid in New York and went upstairs I saw this old man vacuuming the Masjid and and then I was like oh let me go up to him because I was there a bit early so then he was vacuuming the mustard I went up to him I said you know why make this older person do this so I went up to him I said give me the back in cleaner I'll do it and he's like no no I'm gonna do it and you know he's picking things up with his hands the pieces are too big for the vacuum cleaner and I'm like what's

what's your name and he says my name is my rock you know it was right and so that's when I got to know him but what am I now where was this this was Islamabad or this was in Queens New York oh right okay Wow okay yeah and and one of my memorable moments with him because you know Islamic eschatology is one of his it's a Forte kind of integrated some of his ways of thinking into my my way of thinking from him he kind of like taught us for two years because he was appointed as the

immediate you know of the Jamaat that we were in at that time and and so one day when I was giving a lecture or as you know we were both giving lectures usually I'm listening to him but in this one year I was speaking at it is in the same to the same group of people within the Jamaat that was training and I was you know you you have ideas and you're young and you have conclusions and you're sharing that with a scholar right you know I'm sure so I used to do that with her I mean all the time but chef Mourad was a new scholar so that I

started sharing my ideas with him and then I said you know it's it's interesting how stuff and bunny is right I was talking about the truth I can say what it is but just I was talking about the relationship between Sudanese right instead of God and he said shame Aruna said he said now you're beginning to think like a scholar so before that when I was in husband didn't count how is chef Imran Hussain as a person and you know how is his dynamic and personality I've never met him I've obviously come across his kind of the

whole his things online and he does think out of the box although you know he thinks differently but he does think out of the box one question is that aspect I mean you would be surprised you and him might find more similarities especially in there had these subjects subjects have had these for example because he's very critical of some of the things that have gotten into the tradition yeah but yes he does thinks I think outside the box but what he's doing again is what he's integrating economics and social sciences and what's happening in the world with the tradition right whether you agree or not that one

attempt that to do that yeah right you can disagree with him and but he's doing something he's trying to use religion as religion should be used to some degree and I'm not talking about the eschatology aspect of it and I'm talking about analyzing of the dean itself yeah I mean some people have put quite a few clips sometimes on YouTube I've seen and on some of these topics and they've kind of cut out segments of my talks and his talks that are on similar kind of flavors in some topics and they've kind

of this I've seen those talks and I can see exactly what you're saying that there's many things that I'm sure we kind of overlapping in our way of thinking right it's clearly there so the idea of marrying a six-year-old yeah could be thrown out just by this point one verse of the equipment min and Nisa means the find Nisa and then if you have the same definition as your own the same is saying then the the immature child is not acceptable yeah no 100% yeah I mean that's something an issue I'm really glad he's been speaking

out about in speaking out about it very passionately as well and I have watched his thing on that on YouTube and I think hamdulillah you know because even though we I do feel my personal sometimes I felt that okay he's he you know he has a very oriya peers to me I've maybe I'm misunderstanding it a almost a conspiratorial outlook towards you know the eschatology not the but the apocalyptic nature of this dunya how everything you know there's this huge conspiracy going on or it will be almost

like the Illuminati kind of thing even though I'm not sure if you ever refers to things like Illuminati but so salted and these kind of things i he's been very popular for you know he's like very well known for but when I saw the Aisha Age of Aisha video I was really I mean I was impressed and I was really glad as well that alhamdulillah that you know somebody who has a huge following he has a huge following and you know he's a speaking sense common sense to people so yeah yeah I mean if you only watch pieces of what he's saying it may come

out to seem like conspiracy oriented but I think if you look at his overall view it's it's that is a part of it but it's bigger than that and it's very traditionally oriented right so I mean we could talk about Islamic eschatology because that's one of my favorite subjects too because of shechem carnosine okay and you know and then hamdulillah we can agree to disagree no no of course no I mean that's what about I was curious what about dr.

Asad Ahmed was he also how because I mean I can see you've studied with you know through doctors right at my ear on from saying shame around but on the scene actually talks about this if you ever look up on YouTube shake him dr. Simon around to saying he will tell you that they didn't get along on this one topic okay what topic was that the topic of Islamic eschatology in fact okay the the kind of like it became very day was there in a meeting where dr.

Ayman told she come around saying not to discuss certain topics Big John was one of them Wow sames opinion which is correct I think it was wrong in a sense I love both of them but you know you cannot put a a ban on knowledge per se right just from a general perspective of course but but he just could not understand how Sheikh Imran is thinking on certain topics and this was one of those he because even though it had reached the same conclusions which is

funny but he used a dr. sermon had a very foggy you know Mona put on his method of understanding the world around him and so that approach was very different from Sheikh Imran Hosein okay and because because this is something that you see people may not be familiar with that there's a whole a sub school within which if I holy a mother Assad you know some of the scholars they distinguish between you have a method and then within a method you have Medeiros you have mattresses like these sub schools

it's an IND like an Indian or sub-continental sub school of Cher home Ilana Hamidah Dean Ferrari who is from the late 1800s and I believe he passed his way early 1900s and he is somebody who really kind of brings to life this thing of we need to refocus on the Quran and this thing of this concept of nothing the coherent nature of the Quran and this goes on to influence so many people including it trickles down me through mallanna I mean Asin slaw

he's through to the doctor are through to Javed Hamid ISA through to yourself through to Imran who saying all who seem to have a quite a different flavor in the end it's quite I find that very fascinating but that that is one of the things because this is something new it will come out with different flavours a good point and and so this is you know but the idea for mon-fri he was basically you know the Orientalists were now beginning to write books and criticize the Quran and one of the criticisms was your Quran doesn't seem to have any nessam there doesn't seem to

be any it doesn't read like a rational book and so the question was does the book have a rationale behind it now Imam so UT had written on this issue in his it's odd to some degree but he had given you know both opinions that yes it does have a coherence and the others said no no it doesn't need a coherence right but one of Rakhi when he he take he took this honest like his lifetime mission literally and and and you know he wrote many books but he basically said here it is this is the coherence and it starts with at the basic level that every surah

has pears every other than a few likes religious to be a scene they don't have pears but I just like look Akuma's Raja is that where we going oh okay okay like maybe two blaring or three blaring again go for it your audience can appreciate so it's nice to God sort of talk on allah subhan and is he a Swabia be the one who took his servant up so the cop starts with that hamdulillah the Unzen are lovely then you have the length of both of the swirls are almost the same then you have the sudras ending which

Bonnie's right ending with : hamdulillah the Lamia his wallet of Allah meeya Kailash arica milk well a miracle in a voluminous then alhamdulillah there then you have the boats whereas ending with oil and coal two points on both sides over there pull pull pull doodle-oo over the rock man I am a tad off and I will smell loose now over there's cool oh can I borrow me da de Cali melting or : Anna Anna Machado miss Lu come you Hal a so these kind of like similarities subhanAllah hummed in de the topics being very similar to one another right so this kind of like how did these two

suitors fit the same thing you find for example in to terminus to do out there okay what man starts with ends with with non ends with Slovakia starts with so for example sternman ends with the highest people in paradise so that starts with Assad Kuna said it wouldn't right starts with their man starts with the creation and and all of that and it's before that it starts with Quran so Slovakia starts about the creation and then the Quran right and over there one thing is extended more the other is

extended in the is dramatics few four verses about Quran basically a Roman Quran so in Santa Maria and then how these connect with the way it connects with from philosophy movie morality in dodging in now ksama know them you know them in now Lepore almond cream so and and they're part before this is talking about the technique of allah the creation of allah but they're very similar to us they're like a duplex what one starts with the other ends with what one ends with the other starts with so this kind of like understanding the pairings of the surahs throughout the quran and still under a very good

example okay so the baccarat is talking mostly to do Jewish communities so Ali Imran is talking was in the Christian community Jewish way of thinking which is basically a academics and even Islamic studies of Islamic studies in the modern world I mean in Indian in the current context is basically studying of history right from the academic perspective well Oracle so buckler takes a very Jewish persuade of thinking a very historical way of thinking right okay for you and you did this and we did this since we gave you this and this happened and this happened right what is what is what is wave right yeah this style and

when it comes to Ron it's it's totally according to the Christian way of thinking which is parable right nothing to add and Adam the example of Adam is like example of sorry the example of Issa is like the example of Adam this is exactly the parables that that way of talking the parable you know that's what I you might find this interesting one of the things I found about like sheikh zayed night after studying christianity he literally everything he explains is by examples right form of assembly in the form of a metaphor in the that I mean because that's how the Bible is you know everything is about

Jesus parables and so the Quran when it was talking appreciate the brother has made a beautiful point you know when you study a certain engineer than you that's amazing insight and this this whole thing of the norm the coherence this is something in is is this really the the key theme of the double Quran by Milani slaw he saw it's right has be an old Quran in which he discusses this awry I

think it's yep it should be just over I should be feeding through now so so where do we start right I'm just checking that it's all right let me just tell people yep he is live again folks it's you know what it is people it's just there are forces forces at work that seemed to right we're back we're back we're all good we're good to go

so yep awry so let me just bring up the people's Chuck if sugar and this one yep this are not nice I know this I don't know I see well I was just saying to share you fix one problem and see this is live people this is what they call life it says Mike Tyson says everybody has a plan until you get punched in the face all right so this is it I sit down have this all figured out and there you go a new problem but it's all good right so sure Omar off on for that sure tell us a bit

about you know you you you've you were telling us about your studies and the dynamic and the kind of dynamism that there was they in this whole looking at the coherence of the Quran which is taking a kind of zoomed out approach and how this was in essence a response to maybe certain critics of Islam saying there was a lack of cohesion within the Quran keeping that thought in mind coming back to where you are right now which is the US of A the United States at the good ole land of the free and the

and the brave and so ha what do you see today as some challenges yeah I mean you're somebody very active in the community and we were discussing a bit of this before but tell us about some of the struggles you're seeing today in the Muslim world or in the know in America especially with Dean and then by extension the status quo yeah this is a very difficult question because America is in a crisis where it's determining its future um is is is very very difficult and it America is in a very

precarious situation in a big crisis internally when you say crisis just to be clear what are you people can see that sighs mutters loudly it's just a monk so when you say crisis shift that America's go through I'm gonna share a little bit about that the first thing that comes to my mind is the some of the academic papers that are being written right now let me see if I can share some

of them here with you um but there are there are academic papers that are clearly talking about one of them is here I don't know if you can see here it says experts Noah pandemic was coming he is what they worried about next nine disasters people the nine nine signs people the nine signs so this is in political magazine this was published I don't know if you've heard a political magazine it's very popular here it's like mainstream okay but but these

people and others I can point them out if you're interested but a lot of academic papers arc or openly saying now that America needs to face the fact that it will never be the same again it's it's lost its status quo it is no longer in a position to to assert itself politically the way it has set itself away globally is that what we're speaking about yeah okay so this has been one of the internal debates within American academics and American politics is that should America playing the role of policing the world or not right so

this has been one of the internal debates and so you have something tanks like my RAND Corporation you have other think tanks like the the counts in the foreign policy and and like some some the conservative there's a conservative think tanks are more like no you know we need to kind of like step back but I mean it still has the power still has that position or we know are we saying it doesn't say that you know at some point even after the the the collapse of the British Empire Britain still had power right I mean they still have power there it's their nuclear weapons are not gonna go anywhere but the real power is economic power and

the real power is the power of alliance is the power of credibility right it's the soft power that matters more than your military power I mean you you have for example economics is more important than military the soft power of political alliances getting along with everyone I mean there's not a person in the world that Trump hasn't these negative things about all the African countries I mean yeah he didn't rub off too well with Europe he definitely didn't rub off too well with Russia you know and then China

has problems with its justice here everybody's like but you know in some ways I was reading we were chatting about this one day and I was saying that don't you feel that especially like maybe this is more a guy thing here like maybe like how always see the world don't you kind of feel that this the way Trump is doing things is how many boys would idealize to rule the world like they would you know it's he just has this attitude of like I don't give a

damn like I'm gonna yeah I'm gonna do this I will like he's not an outright categorical tyrant like he's not killing people but he'll he'll have an opinion as dumb as it may be you're as right as it may be and he'll be like I'm gonna do this I don't give a damn like and this you know this kind of like cowboy style this very like a huge macho element to it is this not what a lot of people deep down would it would be like a dream to be able to rule like that without kind of this fear like just to do it with a sense of impunity almost the interesting thing right is that there are a few

aspects to this somebody said I think the word you're looking for is chauvinist yeah sure but I mean sure what I'm trying to say is I think many people they like so little so let's take a look at the east you God in the East you've got many rulers and Kings who do live like that they do whatever they want like let's say south working so what if worse than that they will kill me but they won't do it publicly you see that publicly they will keep a kind of an arm's length and they will have these things done but Trump I mean Trump was like before getting elected he like he's somebody who openly

I mean I'm just quoting him saying look grab him by the I mean this is something that Trump says publicly on TV I mean he this is a guy who just does not give a damn like he's like I don't care you know it's like you want to vote me in vote me in and people are like okay we'll vote you so they say it's it's his chauvinist unquestionably but what I'm trying to say is that attitude of wanting to be able to just speak your mind and not give a damn in itself is a deeply admirable like kind of like a position that I think a lot of people

especially men aspire to I'm not saying they aspire to be Trump but I'm saying there's late any say that because that's almost in some ways and I'm not saying this what you're saying none at all but in some ways I would say that you know that is that is wanting to wanting to be like a psychopath because Psychopaths are not have no empathy right I don't know if people want to be Psychopaths but I think people want to be able to like they want to have they don't want to be absolute

tyrants who I heard that works good if you're running a business because you kind of have to do that right because you're the boss and you know what your company needs right and you know what you need your employees to do so you tell them this is what I need you see but it's not true because I like what I'm like when you look at somebody like Trump he's not out there saying hey I don't give a crap about any of you he's not saying that he's in fact got a following who he's telling them I actually care about you and I'm gonna make America great again so he's like presenting a vision even if

it's a fake one but he's present he's got slogans and he see the thing about Trump is is that if I may connect some of the dots find over the years is that see America's biggest viewership the biggest viewership is Fox News okay and no capped into this okay the viewership of Fox News was more than CNN NBC and and all the others combined yeah so when you have a Fox News basically it is it comes with a certain

ideology a certain agenda yeah right and the agenda is basically if it's the politics of fear the politics fear is these Democrats these quote-unquote atheists these minorities you know they come and they bring their filth they bring their drugs they and and then on the other side you have these and these Democrats that don't believe in God they have no morality and so this kind of like view that Fox News was giving and and a lot of that had to do with you know the Republican Party was much harder on Muslims and it's none you

can't you can hardly absolutely I mean I I obviously I completely condemn as a person Trump and I I don't like his views at all actually I I but I'm saying that I kind of admire I admire his you see his ability to be able to you know the kind of power he he kind of wields you know this from he knew he would win the elections when when people and you know the the the biggest power nowadays

some people would argue is data okay and when the data was showing that more people are watching Fox News and no one is tapped into this like as properly emotionally authentically right after Obama right so Obama is like the first black president okay and during Obama's presidency you had the highest rise of white supremacist hate groups that had ever happened in the history of its its existence is that so okay yeah yeah just go to the Southern Poverty Center the website for the Southern Poverty Center Southern Poverty Center will show you that

they're more than a thousand hate groups that are white supremacist groups that have happened that that had been a result of during especially Obama's presidency that are the result of his presidency and they were there were a lot look the 2007 housing collapse had happened right so you have 40 million people that have become displaced they've lost their houses we're talking about middle-class Americans and they have to blame someone right here and these banks they come out as you know you know we're gonna we're good so who is there to blame you have to blame

someone for losing your house and and these white people see these people are coming across the borders they're taking our jobs no it's true I mean that kind of scapegoating has always worked I mean it's like you know from the time of Hitler we've got it up until now the way bricks it kind of one on the back of these the way our US politics Center on on race if you just go even to the to the front page of their their website it becomes very clear that this is that this is one of the big fears I have right now and and and that's why I've been talking every must should needs to

have like security now because just the other day this guy named Tucker that comes on Fox News was like how come these black people are demonstrating in front of churches and in front of you know vandalizing churches when Mohammed also believed in slaves and you haven't done any damage to mosques he's saying this on national TV right so he's giving him the idea of what happened in New Zealand and and and so so any if any of you are listening to me I mean if you're in the u.s.

listening to me this is it's a matter of time you know it's just amazing it's a miracle of Allah that it hasn't happened that often but considering the amount of boiling that's happening under the waters right here the underbelly of the US right the bible-thumping America is angry and Trump represents that anger he has to play the role of black angry do you see this as I mean I do see a lot of these things that you're saying even though I'm not in America but through social media and other mediums i but do

you see this the trajectory do you kind of see it just spiraling out of control or do you see more optimistically going towards people do you see the better that people that the kind of goodness will prevail the goodness in people the better judgment do you feel that no I was expecting yeah right so I mean I love Chicago I love the city I was born in right she town or is it SHhhh a town how do you

say shy town also because it has Madonna's there so the people some people call it with that you know she can't go shitty anyway so anyway the point I'm trying to say is that no I'm talking academically rationally well you see don't you see the future you see the future as bleak you don't see as the better judgment of people you see because me I see I see everything I see maybe you you definitely would see the American situation better than me but from what I see as well of the world

through media through the news through whatever through people I and even the situation in Europe whatever I actually do see yes there is all of these this kind of underbelly with the whole hatred and people kind of this this is kind of like the melting pot of all these emotions but I also see with time people are kind of growing to to see reason like they see that look like that there is a better judgement that I I do see it more prevailing and sometimes especially with the younger people and you know like some philosophers had said that

it's not sometimes that new ideas prevail it's more that people with the old ideas just die they kind of replaced with people that have fresh ideas that's how new kind of thoughts prevail ultimately and I feel that the majority of like let's say this country I'm assuming America is is is now younger people and I do have her oh is it okay okay so we're different in that sense yeah and and see what is happening in America is that the so though so cops killed so just just consider this right

so cops killed a black person yeah and in response to that they're defunding the cops they're literally taking away the money of the cops wait are they are they defunding or they just saying we're gonna kind of replace corrupt cops with better cops is that what they say this is the phase in between is a phase of anarchy right before you come up with this whole list of new cops that are actually properly trained and and and see the thing is not any solution is gonna be perfect right no matter how you push it or pull it but the the the

dialectic has become such that it's one like Republicans have one opinion Democrats have another opinion and the it's just chaos because there's no conversations because you know I would have because I would have assumed when they said this whole talk of defunding the police I didn't assume it to mean let's defund the police I assumed it to mean like let's have a shuffle you can understand on the ground what's happening right there is a husband beating his wife okay me and quite a scenario

me and one brother we go to this house we can hear inside the house a child crying for help saying help us this is a real-life scenario okay let's see take it away she'll I had about maybe 15 brothers with me that day we called the cops you know how long they took 28 minutes to come and they did nothing they didn't go inside the house and the attitude of the cops has now become oh if you don't like us well then fine we won't do anything for you kill each other yes that is not in a particular State oh is that have a good relationship with

the cops in our area one of the chief person told us well we really don't really want to do anything he's saying in a kind wait we really don't want to do anything because if we do then we're blamed for what we do it's kind of like this child oh you blamed us cops oh they're they're being very everything is being becoming so sensitive everything there's no conversation no authentic conversations taking place in America Democrats hate Republicans Republicans hate Democrats like across the board I'm like serious but it's it's bigger than that because even within the Republican Party or even within the Democratic Party they don't like each other but he

says that shift isn't that just the fundamental fabric of human beings I mean human beings wherever they are will always have differences sure absolutely so when is society has polarization like this I just read the history of Hitler right bit of a leap though it is straight to hit level do you feel it's getting to Nazi Germany it's getting that bad I'm saying that you know think in normal life normal life what happens as things go wrong and over time things go back to normal right that's the that's the normal route the problem over

here is the same problem that the Bani Israel had with their own and this is what the intellectuals are worried about okay that's interesting and that problem is this is that when you have minorities because this is a problem of demographics if you read what the intellectuals are worried about I'm talking about academic papers academic writing oh well I thought you I think you might want people like me I'm worried about intellectuals what they're worried about is the change of demographics so you had bunny historian that was becoming larger than the fifties that were ruling them

right and that that is that's where the fear of politics of fear comes in you have this minorities the blacks the Spanish the Muslims all these group of people that have a different culture than the main white that have been there for from the beginning right and they had built America they have struggled hard they're the ones that made the sacrifices they're the ones that came from you know on the boats to America and and now here these minorities are and they're ruining everything because America is is not prospering economically because there was a time

where you work for one company all your life and you had your retirement pension and you had your social security and you had your Medicare and you had everything taken care of now a person has to change jobs every few years you know but I do I do hear this like so for example I've heard that here as well that in the UK you know there was a time when people worked you know they joined a particular Factory and they retired with that factory but I mean I understand that and I've heard that I mean I was in teaching profession and I would have people come in sometimes on Korea's days and they would say this to the kids but you know

first of all don't you feel that's a very selective it's not history generally but it was just like because after the war and factories were needed and things like these and development technology and then today the day and age is different but their reasons for that right that is that these big companies that majority of them that use child labor and abusive labor practices overseas outside America whether in China or anywhere else they are this is the you know food companies or iPhone companies or any of these tech companies that are using very cheap

labor and that to-to-to then they're not giving their employees like the biggest employer in America is Walmart or is it in Wohlers 40 hours in Walmart and still need food stamps that just means that corporate America's become more greedy just tell me what I want to explain this in another way understand this look there's a study done in Harvard there by this Harvard professor who looked at all the revolutions in the last 200 years right the French Revolution the Chinese Revolution all these different social changes that had taken place one thing was very clear in all of those studies is that when the middle class gets affected the middle

class the mama Papa stores which is the backbone of American society it's the mama Papa stores right what I'll give you an example there's a person he has a computer store he pays somebody to make computers it's a mama it's like a you know middle-class store he makes computers and he sells them right now you go to Best Buy and Best Buy says oh we'll give it to one loan you know you could pay $14 a month and it'll be paid you don't have to pay the guy that made that computer you were paying in $14 an hour to make that computer right and now you have to pay his salary and now you can make maybe a profit of two three hundred dollars if

you sell it at its full price right and and so the those mama Papa stores are have closed in America for the most part even the big stores are closing for that matter and it's just a conglomerate of very specific stores like Amazon Walmart eccentric cetera the big stores and what they have done is they're they have treated you any one of these stores whether you look at Walmart whether you look at Amazon you look at any of these big stores look at how they're treating their employees but shift here the question comes I do get this and I was having a discussion with her but you see what I wanted to say they just

interjecting is I was having a very good friend of mine who's into all of this and into AI and and you know and he works with all these major corporations speaking about how these huge you know kind of conglomerates are swallowing these tiny kind of businesses and how workers are being replaced by machines and artificial intelligence is replacing doctors and so on now and you speak about Watson and all these kind of latest medical kind of inventions but you see I was saying that that although that is true but don't you feel with that a new market is then generated for

humans because you see it is true what you're saying that yes for example these like Amazon is you know all these large companies are swallowing up smaller companies but the IRRI is then seeing maybe a new industry in service in online things in designing websites in IT in you know in like the world is it's also creating wealth it's kind of you know if you want to say annihilating or removing it's it's also creating do you do not see that or do you just see so that will definitely happen right that

will definitely happen so for example we never had what is called FinTech FinTech is financial technologies like Bitcoin yeah yeah doing programming for let's say blockchain technology certain things never existed if we have let's say all the truck drivers are no longer driving and we have let's say artificial intelligence driving because the the the residential driving will come much later what will come before that is commercial come on like the big trucks because they're mostly in the highways right and so so you have like you know these companies that are that have these truck drivers replaced and this will take a long time but it will happen probably like in the next 10-15 years but the

point I'm trying to make is that yes there will be new jobs but what happens is because AI is coming into the picture and they're taking all in either a the the bottom level met the model at the bottom level manufacturing jobs the menu the labor part and they you know the difference is if I'm a driver I can drive eight hours and then I have to take a rest but if artificial intelligence is driving they who do they make more profit with obviously they are

he's gonna drive more than eight hours you can drive for 24 hours you know etc etc right so there's more profit in that sure so so the point I'm trying to make is that both the the you know there was this exam you can look this up on the internet a I beat all the lawyers in the world in an exam so this is of course it and the same thing will happen do you know right now I'm actually watching this this TV series it's a British one called humans I don't know if you've seen it but it's on Netflix and so it's about these where they've got these kind of artificial human beings called synths

and they're just kind of everywhere people have them as workers at home and they have them doing stuff and and some of them kind of get gained consciousness but the it's interesting because this is just so it's so relevant to that much better than Netflix of course your guilt-tripping me now no no no but I'm sure you will find this interesting okay there's a versatile unis and I'm gonna give you my take on that verse

okay this is my take on the verse meaning there it could you can take it another way and I can okay and that is Massa Massa retired dunya combine and I know who Mina Samantha a lot of universal art so yeah who knows well in Iran okay so there was a phase in history of human beings where the economy of our world was agrarian society was agriculture okay okay up to the Ottoman Empire it was the agriculture which was running the economy until hata uni this is the shirt

until this time right had either a garage who was we cannot until the earth brought out its ornaments meaning oil Iren copper and you had the Industrial Age okay so now you move from an agrarian society to in this industrial age okay had that either and what is the result was a Annette or Serena and it became beautiful and what happened was I knew her and whom God you do now honey her and the people in it they thought they had full control

and what is the end result the end result is is John now has he been Columbia tough no never lumps we made it as if there was no yesterday it was all because this whole modern society is not sustainable you cannot have oil forever don't you feel that you see it's true we wouldn't have oil forever but human beings would work in a way and knowledge works in a way that we would develop things that so for example nuclear nuclear energy can nuclear can but it

won't happen no but I mean yeah but what I'm trying to say the way these so for example certain batteries are powered electrical energy it is I mean it's a never-ending source I mean it's in I mean we get it from light it's not something that's going to disappear what I'm trying to say don't you feel that humans were just discover yes you can go in many different directions most of if you take a you know game have you heard of game theory yeah it came through yeah okay if you take game theory and look at what are the positive and negative

outcomes of the current situation we're in and you look at the what the intellectuals are saying you'll see majority of it is negative whether you look at climate change perspective whether you look at resources perspective whether you look at it from a war perspective whether you look at it from a from majority of them are saying something else will go wrong right and so the point I'm trying to make here is they also don't they also say that we today as human beings are living in the greatest like kind of prosperity and affluence yes generally speaking than

human Frank Frank is Fukuyama said he wrote the book at the end of his oh ok intellectuals you could say the big ones right ok so that one theory is of clash of civilization which is Samuel Huntington right so he became the big political scientist which from the time of George Bush jr. yeah after 9/11 he became the big his views were very much considered and his view of where we are going in history is we're in a clash of civilizations ok ok and we can see that really literally happening in front of us and if you read the rand reports we also seem to be going in that direction

ok now the other opinion is of Francis Fukuyama Francis Fukuyama wrote the book oh yeah my people fuku yeah it sounds less re what did you say oh no I was quoting in an academic ok said he wrote a book called end of history and basically his idea was you know that look this democracy what we have this is it and wherever this takes us it's gonna be this is the system that's gonna take us to where wherever we go this is the end of history democracy is it and you know recently I heard somebody at some universities saying I would like to ask Francis Fukuyama if he still agrees with that opinion considering everything that's

happening well I mean I you see I'm not saying democracy is the end of of everything what I'm saying is that we unquestionably as human beings right now live in an EVA that has seen unprecedented like I mean with out the kind of prosperity the kind of affluence the kind of luxuries the amenities the freedoms despite whatever is going on in the world this has been unmatched throughout human history like and I understand that things aren't necessarily always amazing and perfect but the fact that the way our lifestyle

the human era right now is it's it's like light years ahead of what human beings were previously so yeah one of the places that see the history can go in many different ways but what I see specifically in the Quran is that we are we are not in a position to expect much good to come out of our better selves I mean our better selves you know are we more nicer today are we more less greedy today are we because those that's what it's gonna take to make things better right I'll tell you what we are we are

more trusting in a future we are more trusting in a future of what in a future like as a human being as a species so we historically the fact that we have allowed so many psychosocial constructs to prevail the fact that we've allowed loans and a banking system and we have all these things and contracts and transactions is because of the psychosocial trust we have of a tomorrow the whole system we have is based upon one contract yeah okay and that is it

happened in 1973 a Kissinger went to Saudi Arabia and he said that you will only sell oil in dollars no I don't mean that little contract I mean with the thing that is not this predates Thatcher it predates the I'm talking about the whole concept of money the whole concept of taking it away like so why was then why was this kind of prosperity why didn't it occur hundreds of years ago I know put aside the fact that you're gonna say well obviously there's the Industrial

Revolution but even the concept of money proliferating of loans of things like this because there was no trust that tomorrow would be better than today and secondly human beings felt that they had pretty much achieved you know they'd kind of hit that pinnacle so if you go to the medieval ages like you said the Ottoman ages why weren't they you know there's an interesting discussion that why did the Ottomans or those people not for example participate in the discovery of America why did they not do why was the world not so thirsty about these things because human beings felt that you know

we've pretty much like you know we've got cannons we've got these things we've got this is like we're at the top like this isn't it isn't gonna really get any significantly better basically nobody did but it but nobody it massively got better no but what I mean is human beings are not the Ottomans per se but as a species it goes man are exponentially better I mean that you had a whole Industrial Revolution you're a technological revolution a scientific revolution human beings have gone you know like light-years from where they were right what I'd like to share with you is something is some studies in

mark is is the very definition of modernity okay the premises of the idea of modernity is that what is today is necessarily better than what was yesterday and the premises of modernity is that what will be tomorrow is necessarily better than what is today okay this is the very idea of meaning of the word modern modern means I'm skeptical of the past and I hold that we are in a better place today than previously and I hold that we will be in a better place tomorrow than we are today this is like if you take if you study

modernity in a philosophy department this is basically the but but just to be clear when they're saying today I mean they mean like free modernity they don't mean will go to its peaks I have no doubt about that but will the human condition be better will nations get along better or you know it's I mean little nations even exist what if we work towards a global kind of please you know close your ears for a second but I'm gonna save this so you understand what I'm trying to say it's cuz it you know if if you have muscles like you do

in Hungary lie right then you can't expect somebody with muscles not to use their muscles right sighs much as apparently if you have muscles and if somebody says don't use your muscles it's not gonna happen it's not natural you know the country that our is you know this this thing this thing what is referred to sometimes as the law you know Chekhov's law where he you know in his novels where he says that well if you speak of a gun in a scene in a particular scene then that gun has to be used some way in the novel otherwise it's you know you can't have something in a script and it not be and it be

useless this has actually been defied by the modern world when it comes to nuclear powers in fact it's ironic and you know you'll see people like you Val Harare as well speak that it's an ironic that how such powerful weapons of mass destruction have become the basis for peace like a country like Pakistan and India now they just last year they were going to go to war I mean it was pretty much gonna kick off the thing that really stops them apart from them thinking you know because apart from the

thinking this is no good for our economy but there's not hot hot Headz on both sides the thing that stops them is that if we escalate this will escalate to complete destruction of us and them so nuclear did this this this concept of death that we have a psychopath in power no no because in again I'm sorry to say this in philosophy there's this concept called structuralism yes is the question is the structures we have is that important or the people in it important and if you say the structure is

important then your argument is fine and well but if you argue that no the structure it doesn't matter can be communism democracy or whatever the structures of the world are but it's the people in it that matter now when you have low the on one side and Trump on another side and in it and Yahoo on another side somebody's gonna act stupid and if they feel and it could be by accident but if somebody feels okay now they press the buttons they're gonna kill us now you know I I can see what you're saying but like let's take a real life example ideas completed Rachel it seems because we don't know the future but I believe that

you know God seems to know the future [Laughter] and that is that that well then you do now Elena right either at Leyland una hora so it seems like it'll be the same day if something will happen one side of the day one side of the world will be night the other side will be day so John never see them no one ever comes and then we'll all be just you know also to the bonnie is right a min korea teen nanu maliku her oh why the boo have

ableo melt a.m. there will not be one city before the day of judgement except we will destroy it or it'll be severely punished the same puppy comes again in Stuttgart century generally used for worse this does you know like in Korea in men Korea thing except that we are you know Maliki huh let's say we are going to destroy it does not necessitate I mean it can seem to say that God is gonna destroy it as a punishment but it could simply mean that whatever lives

will die it could mean that look this city what we see yeah okay oh oh it may be on some cases that is destruction it may also be that so for example where is Babylon today where is the combining of the sudras right this curve starts with the same topic but essentially the middle so it seems that we will become so frustrated when it comes to fresh water there will be such conflict in crisis when it comes to oil there will be such conflicts in the world that it

seems to me at least that we are headed for trouble you know but what about the other kind of verses if they did this life eternal Batiatus you know but katisa my wife what we would have its land know as a if they yeah but it's speaking about a recognition of god but Allah is saying he's not some he's not one to withhold from his barakat what am i I do get that there are verses of the Quran unquestionably that speak of things like punishment but I feel that there are other ones as well you know am i if I don't love you either become you know it what is a lot to gain out of punishing

you what is complete the worst or you are the below what the well as long as you're doing it's default but if they're doing voted the answer to okay but this is a micro scale we see this one we're speaking about like there's a village with tyrants in it doing some no no no I know and this is really interesting I'm enjoying of course of course is the world is the world doing site

right I you see I would feel that humanity is on a trajectory and I would feel that that trajectory is more positive than negative I would feel that it's more optimistic than pessimistic and I would feel that the hope is brighter than the despair that's how I generally see the world going in humanity going because when good within you but the world but I mean doesn't it I mean do we live today in an in a day and age where we care we cannot like I said before we can't deny that we have

more rights as a species let alone us animals the environment pets anything let's talk about the environment okay what are we doing environment okay like as globalist absolutely because you know the problem is that the the non-muslims they're more organized than us and they have higher moral standards and a lot of our own people okay so that's a given okay but that doesn't necessarily speak to that D just just because someone is wrong doesn't make the other person

right right so if Muslims are wrong that doesn't make the other party right it has to be right or wrong on its own merits of course unquestionable okay so now having said that what is what the West is doing especially its economic model right which is a model that is it to me at least it one that you know is based upon this that's gonna bust basically there's no other way around it right I mean what what model is this that's going to bust that you feel that can't contain itself like what what is its model based upon loans and loans and

loans and loans that you have the richest country in the world because you you got to remember America is America the corporation meaning the government and then there's the American people American people are suffering people in any country your country they're suffering the governments could be as strong as they are but the people are suffering of course the you see because when we say when we say suffering I am I don't deny that they were suffering I mean unfortunately suffering is an inherent part of living now but it is a spectrum I mean suffering when we say

suffering I mean somebody suffering from a terminal disease to somebody just suffering from the pangs of day-to-day life you see yes people are suffering but I mean how does that they're not I mean people are equally that kind of suffering they are equally at some kind of peace as well there is some kind of you know there is a there is a sense people do there are amenities there are I'm not saying things are it's our paradise but it's not a hellhole either just look at the individual level right like okay let me break this down in it may be a more simple way

until there's not individual piece of personal piece there could be no question of global peace right the people have to be at peace but when you say that peace what what do you what what do we mean by when we say at peace what do you see levels when you look at depression as an epidemic when you look at the type of nutrition we're having meaning it's not healthy for us which means it affects our minds it affects our bodies it when you look at our worth at work ethics of the Millennials for example when you look I mean you you can you can look what what is the work ethic of them of the villains what's the world

just just quickly I mean oh okay right and there's a sense of entitlement that the Millennials seem to have so my my feeling is I mean again this has to do with maybe you know maybe you're a good person you see a good future I don't think I don't think it's not at all sure it's not it's not about me trying to say oh I don't even see this like let's say whoever has this view it's not I'm not seeing in them this a reflection of their personality but they obviously

must have been through certain things in life which I mean we've all been through challenges in life but it has imprinted on them much deeper to the core that they have lost a sense of optimism for Humanity like they feel that humanity is just spiraling downwards and I do see that as well I see you know I've I've also been through you know I hate things haven't been rosy in my life but but I do see that you know like stepping back that that's not necessarily true like people are just as good as well you know you see the goodness in people it is there but yes there isn't immorality

that is there so I can see a drug dealer in our streets for example right and I see good in that person he's the one who's bringing the weed for you you like thank you yes I should I see the good in me for turning up on time good we got a mustard here can you please not sell your drugs and he'll be understanding you'll go to the other corner right so so and he has respect he understand like sometimes these you know people in gangs they have codes they live by a code right do they have this morality whether you like it or not it is a different issue whether you agree with their morality or not is a

different issue but but see what am i what is my problem this is the the question that I wanted to give my problem is not the individual that may be good or bad the species huh is the problem the species the human species is driving the species see the driving force of human human beings are no longer in the driving seat of their destiny sort of saying okay who's driving us the driving the driving force of our arts are our species right now is is corporate is the corporation's the multi core from the corporate and

corporate you know corporation literally means bringing the dead to life Claudia corporation yeah from a corpus like a human they are like a living entity that in fact that's actually why they call corporations to give them a legal entity as a living entity yeah they are like you can take them to court and etc etc so this system is such that let's say there's a banker he can be a good person but the point is that we are with the system we're living in it has come to a point you know that might but really put it well me me me I'll talk about what I was going to talk about but I want to put it the way he put it

because I think he allow Mike Budd put it in a very good way in his book reconstruction of religious thought okay a nutmeg bud says and I want to know what you think about this right and this shows the positive aspect actually where I would probably agree with you okay so I'm gonna because if I was very positive in his in his outlook you see do you see that I see I see the kind of opposite sometimes I see that he was kind of well he has the shake one but he also yeah yeah but I kind of see him hopeful but kind of despondent of the circum because of the circumstances and

I kind of see that but yeah carry on sorry yeah so short back Stein would come into existence and Andy and you know he had this vision yeah he did you thought right now so so anyway let me tell you what it buds philosophy is on this issue that we're talking about particularly West how he looked at western civilization right so this is actually very very unique and very interesting and in some ways meets with you more than it meets what I'm saying very to be fair to the subject I have to kind of like discuss this because it has it's worth he says that the Western civilization has two parts there's an

inner core and an outer core he says the outer core is like what I was saying Xena the dazzling exterior calls it the dazzling exterior right you have the entertainment the dance the hully with the movies this is like this is the false glitter of that society this is what he kind of like calls it the dancing experience exterior then he says there's an internal core which is we will which is knowledge knowledge rationality understanding things observation of things measurement of things testing things in the lab so he says the inner core is knowledge the

outer core is the culture which is he calls it the dazzling exterior the entertaining and not that it combines against you that's not the point the point is is that he's trying to give you a map of how he sees Western civilization now when he says it but says this he says that man is in a journey to seek out the doors of the Prophet what he's saying is after everything man is experienced meaning communism to democracy into socialism in the end through the process of trial and error they will reach the same conclusion to where the Prophet was

taking us to start with okay so this is a quasi view of what will happen and this is a bad view of Western civilization okay so you can choose to agree or disagree or what you like of that now where I am saying currently the Western civilization as it exists right now will probably in my feeling because of certain entities that are driving human destiny and and I think that we're on for a very big problem you see I just wanted to say them but obviously about

Iqbal and the whole thing you see okay him saying look we're gonna is gonna is gonna come back it's gonna come full circle to what the prophets taught okay obviously as a Muslim you know I'm not gonna that's that's absolutely brilliant I mean my understanding of what the prophets taught was simply to reconnect creation with the creator it was not you know something incredibly complex it was a and in that simplicity lies a you know an amazing structure but ok coming to this point he was saying before that that you quote looked that the Western cultures have these two aspects this kind of in this core of knowledge and

this core of this glittery kind of shell but in all honesty I look I feel that that's not exclusively in any way Western human beings have always been drawn to entertainment it's not like the West invented dance or they invented sex or they invented let's say drugs even in that case I mean they may have invented some modern drugs that that may have been invented today in in in the West but the concept of intoxication is a you know it's an it's an ancient concept so and and just dancing or having drums beating drums or playing music or just

chilling out level hadith this kind of thing is a human pastime you know it's been since since time immemorial so and on the same token this unquenchable thirst to know you know as Socrates had kind of put it that we wisdom begins with wonder that we will forever have this burning this kind of passion within us to know and I I feel that is just describing the human nature it's not describing West society's per se maybe Western societies in a particular era they personify that

more than other societies in some errors but it's just human beings we as human beings are drawn to glitter we're drawn to what attracts us but at the same time we have these inner qualities that want to know that want a deeper the more linked with consciousness and don't you feel in this day and age right now like in the last couple of decades or not even color especially in the last two decades maybe there has been a rise of people wanting to know more about things like consciousness wanting to know more about like you know they are transcending as

well this and this is people of the West this isn't Muslim I'm not speaking about Muslims people who recognize that consumerism you know you spoke of consumerism that consumerism on Stead's on steroids is unhealthy I think a lot of Westerners or people recognize that that they think that this is you know this kind of just shop til you drop kind of concept is a very unhealthy kind of lifestyle and you know we need to eat more healthier we need to kind of do things more healthy we need to care about the environment wean and what is consciousness there may be other you know we need to connect with this don't you think this

culture has kind of risen since like let's say you know there's more of an awareness of it today than they was like in the early 90s let's say would you not agree yeah I do but the problem remains for me the same is that these people who have this consciousness right and and they're asking these you can say exists an shal questions yeah and I think people are more open to this an existential kind of angst I would feel that people want meaning in life and purpose in life and they want that you know that my life meant something and it

has some meaningful result and I think that is probably more true than ever than I've seen I think people are more open to so I'm in this in situation we're in okay okay that's interesting they have nothing else to do except to think about exist Angela questions right so it's like you know we've all been put into prison and a lot of non-muslims are using this time to learn about it's not a lot a lot a lot a lot of people you know and and that's definitely one of the positive results so yeah you're absolutely right there are more non-muslims concerned with

issues of health there are nor more non-muslims that are more aware they have more general awareness right but they're not in a position to change the church it's like you know Weber Max Weber sociologist he said the dice has been cast what ice the dice has been cast what you feel or what you are wanting individually it the dice has been cast and so the the trajectory we're in with AI and corporations and the way the society is probably gonna break down further people will be in

more you have the richest country in the world in America where 99 percent of its people are in debt an average debt of $8,000 okay you have you have America trying to make it force the world to buy oil in dollars and China and Russia are saying no we're not going to do that so we're really reaching a you know a dead end where something has to give in my know and and by the way I you know with these things it's I agree with these matters that consumerism is kind of you know there is this kind of this craze this kind of

manic drive behind it which is destructive and I recognize these things I agree with like where it talks about this kind of like this holes that you clean your money on the other bossy what's the main theme of still got materialism materialism and ndnd you know the the whole the whole materialism is the main theme that don't don't fall for materialism is the whole theme of the whole surah I mean that could be a slight veneer that you you know I'm missing then you have the man in the car

except I'm just saying that it could also be a theme of identity and belonging I'm just saying as well it could be that they felt that they didn't belong with the people and hence they sought refuge also have the irons what's been up second I Lavinia there all right well that and don't take your eyes away from them and don't look at the people the yeah this no of course of course no sorry I made more specifically about the people of the cave not the entire sort of the hobble calf is interesting because you know you have people who are

who have to flee away who are terrorized were suppressed for their faith and they have to live in they have to make a choice do we sit live in the city or relieve the city and they have to leave the city life because they're being suppressed and oppressed and what's interesting is there's more and more academic papers coming out right now and after this whole code you know people are ready oh but let's not forget it's not a charism right and so that that's a theme that's coming back slowly in this whole situation that we're in well III just wanted to say that you know before that it's not you know when we're speaking of things like the banking system and the debt the accrued

debt and and the kind of meta debt that has been accrued and these kind of systems or meta systems are crumbling I'm not necessarily saying that that may not be the case but what I'm saying is the way human beings work in my understanding that's something like human beings like I'm not saying that these systems must persist but the human beings with prosperity I feel will whether they replace these systems with other organic system just rising above so if it's if it'll be replaced by something that's not about which will be

good show but I I just mean necessarily Ripa our whole infrastructure is RIBA based and in the problem with that is that we are looking at a situation where in you know they're just printing dollars and getting it to everybody here it would the stimulus package right it's not like they out of curiosity share do you not feel or do you feel that this that a huge in that case I'm assuming that one of the major downfalls you may feel is because of RIBA the the whole kind of you know the kind of poison in the structure that's

but I mean brings out the worst in humanity but you know I out of cute okay I'd like to pick your brains on that because do you not feel that River in Islam traditionally okay right okay sure a loan based yeah sure now because I'm sure now long for profit is this not when I'm trying to understand things to understand them in a secular perspective before I bring them into the religious

sure that's thus people and look for the prosperity of humanity the way you the human system is all these things not necessary because who on earth how else would people how would they lubricate the kind of the finance of a society without things like profit for on giving money like nobody would give money without seeing some kind of a profit in it unless they were doing it as a charity but I mean human beings don't work generally on those charities you

want to give a loan for business then do marca do Madonna and it gives you more than two three percent of interest yeah but you see one you'll see but that's the other thing is is that when we talk about rainbow we we only look at certain our scholars so just two it doesn't talk about the whole let me just give you an example show you can get my whole picture of show I have a spell forget about the fact you have to pay for the service of getting a loan forget about that I don't even think that's the main part of RIBA that I have a problem with the part I have a problem is you

have a 30 year loan 30 years okay and in the river system if you don't pay the whole let's say out of the 30 years I paid perfectly for 25 years I had I borrowed a million dollars and I paid off nine hundred thousand dollars now I begin to default because some time in my life I'm gonna have a problem and I happen to lose a job now and I need time to get my another job right and and be able to pay off my mortgage again if you paid out of a million dollars nine nine hundred nine hundred nine hundred ninety nine thousand and nine hundred dollars

right that's theoretically they will take the whole of your house the whole okay right okay I just want to wish okay just about this example I don't want to you see because this example has a lot of kind of like there's a lot of confounding variable to be obviously there's a discussion of something like that would go through the courts there's a court medium intervention okay so then then legal systems would vary because here in the UK they would take it court

to him no but to repossess there has to be like an executable warrant that has to be kind of issued by the county courts now so you would have to take that process to the courts you would have to be essential case and the person that the resident the occupant would present their defense now there's many I I don't want to argue you know what this man he lost his job he's in a very bad situation why don't you give him another to be honest with you in mine in my knowledge the system I'm not I'm not in no way in favor of people ripping the public off but that's so amber just

commenting on my knowledge on this kind of an example in the UK from what a movie it's not that it's not that easy that it's nothing okay so the cars are slightly different to the homes so here that the home they won't just like so for example you default on a payment and they took you out of the house in fact mortgage companies are much more lenient than landlords they will because it's in their interest that you continue paying million dollar house back right no but the mortgage that they trying to I'm just I'm just telling you from practice I'm just telling you how it works here in the market if you default

on a mortgage payment they will contact you they will ask you what's going on now imagine you said like oh it's I've lost my job so they will try to come to some short-term agreement where you could pay in extenuating amount like let's say for six months eight months whereas I know but where as a landlord categorically wouldn't so like a landlord if you were renting he would just give you two months notice and evict you and he would have that so so it's not about the specific this is what I want to come back to rather than going into this example because I if you see

that example are still so many confounding variables if you have the house for a million dollars and you paid nine hundred thousand for some reason you can't pay the last hundred thousand they would sell the house give the 90 percent that that person paid for his share and the bank would keep the let's see phil has something but let's come to the actors big buy cars and they can't pay two three now a person has a car for fun see the problem with this see the problem with this ship is that you see I want to speak about the concept of RIBA that is the problem

rather than these particulars because these particulars vary once yeah they do not get ownership of all your hard work if you do not pay the whole thing yeah but that's you see once again I don't know whether that's always true that you already paid you see because I think that's a false what you it's it's it's a false kind of comparison because you see what you're saying you're giving a very particular detailed example and your counter example is just seems like utopian kind of paradise in saying well in Islam it's so beautiful and here it

is here's a real world example there are two principles right the principle is I'm gonna give you a loan okay so if we speak of the concept you get a loan to get a loan you need a collateral right so okay look what you see look okay so are we discussing what mortgages is this what we're discussing what are we discussed because I'm speaking about of RIBA which is a concept of getting back more than you give but this you're speaking about a particular like mortgages specifically now mortgages specifically yes okay so

if we're gonna speak of mortgages let's stick to two years let's okay let's stick to mortgages then let's stick to mortgages what do you propose that a person rents wait wait but wait is a person leave then oh okay here you're confusing two different one is a fifty issue okay and the other is the philosophy of it right okay so in that case if we want to discuss the philosophy then go let's go to the concept itself the cool concept every perspective I don't have an answer I

don't have a good answer because if you rent a house you're also paying the mortgage of the person who has the apartment complex yet so okay let's go to the actual concept learning the concept of RIBA itself without its particulars the universal right so getting something getting back more than you gave right that is the very basis to motivate human endeavor so what is the problem with every person okay so the problem is I have two options yeah two options for the society that I live in okay option one is I can buy a house and I can buy a house so what is your

but one is none no but this is now you're going back to a particular that to with the false comparison because it's a it's a non realistic comparison so like if we stick to the the universal that the concept ownership till I own it till I paid and most people what do they do most people will Nate so I'm looking at the chip but to understand Reba is bad we need to discuss revive most people will pay the minimum and you know what the minimum is it's not so principal is the interest okay look I love us people pay the minimum for their houses

I know hundreds of families here who month-to-month they're paid they have no equity in their houses because they're just paying the bare minimum I get that but let's talk about so twenty years but we really don't own that much because we've been paying the minimum so it's like if you buy an iron but okay but have they have they got have they lived cheaper than if they were renting that same property yes so they so they've been benefiting yes so they've been saving their money and they've benefited themselves no I'm not I'm looking at it from a utilitarian perspective that look

if the choice is between an apartment where you pay rent versus the modern mortgage system right then probably the market moderate mortgage system is better of course because it gives you capital as well in addition to actually being cheaper than the rent option so you save more money generally I mean I don't know about in the u.s. being the UK mortgages are losing but when I'm in the apartment hold on when I'm in the apartment if you're asking me which is cheaper the the house is cheaper but here's a difference sure when I'm in an apartment I'm expecting to pay $700 a month and that's all I expected right

when I have a house I'm investing in it like it's my house like in terms of furniture in terms of everything in it you know all that happening but that happens with certain rented on non provision and take it all the way but they won't note that that's not necessarily true that's not necessarily true of I firstly said that because look there's a process before they so okay sure look I'm not defending the the kind of like the the the vicious mortgage kind of schemes what I'm saying is we need to backtrack and say well what is the actual problem

with this concept of river what is it what is the problem because if we're saying just getting back more than you give this is the very basic impulse that motivates human beings do the same thing in a much more efficient way for the business site as well as the invest in the person who is important just to be clear that what you're saying is they should share the risk is that what you say no but is that no but is that what you're saying you're saying that it's fine to get back more so long as you are sharing the risk yes that's one thing

right but no longer pay my payments yeah at least the percentage that I invested I invested for two years out of five year or let's say five years out of 30 years I should get that percentage of five years back okay let's simplify this what's happening is they lower the interest rates people get the houses right then the market goes into the economy people lose their houses by millions and this cycle has been repeated itself almost 17 times now you see look I'm in a worse situation than they were this is the first generation

by the way that is worse off than the generation before it no I agree with look with the housing bubble crisis I understand that although I don't see as an Islamic problem because I don't see rebar to mean mortgages but that said I want to just understand this concept of rebirthing okay let's simplify let's take it to just a loan a monetary loan so you asked for ten thousand pounds today ten thousand dollars the person is giving you with the understanding that you're gonna pay back up to five years later and you're gonna pay back 13,000 let's say now this is what the I

understand see I wanna this is not what happens that's a very wrong example no so when you take it yes if this is not what the bank is doing it is it is not it's not doing the equivalent of giving you ten thousand asking for thirteen thousand back or it's not doing this with businesses right because that's not what practically happens no but every month yeah yes so you do pay so so let's say you've got you know so you've got a yessiree so you've got let's say you take out a hundred thousand no loans are usually up to a certain amount usually twenty-five thousand is a is an unsecured loan in the UK let's say you took hours for simple figures saying ten

thousand to make it a nice round simple figure so if you took ten thousand usually they might say they offer you a five year repayment program and at the end of the five years you've paid back something like let's say fourteen thousand so now yes you are paying on a monthly basis though but it accrues to that total amount now what I'm saying is that you see I understand if I was a person that was borrowing money I would want to not give back a penny more than I've borrowed as a human being I understand that but I have to also understand that society won't function with these simple you know blocks it

needs more motivation so the giver will need so let me answer you how the motivation is there let's say I made a house or I bought a house for a hundred thousand you see but we're going back to houses now so I want to just understand no so I to simplify I said just a loan so we can understand monetary loan so we can understand the concept of of rebirth that is being problematized because I've obviously said in my general view is that yes Reba the Republic were on was

talking about lone chakra and it wasn't speaking about general what we have today this system and the monetary system has kind of moved much ahead and I've said that the no but is not if this is not loan sharking what we're doing with the banks if that is not loan sharking that I don't know what I don't generally people are losing their houses no but you see you're still fixated on mortgages if we speak about a general loan now if you take ten thousand pounds and after five years you pay back fourteen thousand let's say after spread over five years but it sets a very bad

precedent so put that but then you see if you're agreeing with that that's red in the middle of the night and there's no cars yeah but I still see but because chef's if you don't motivate people they won't be then giving they won't set up these things system that you know I'm speaking for which is the Islamic system which is what you would obviously speak for too but we're just having this conversation coast just you know which is that look when why just get two percent back why not get fifty percent yeah okay so so

now so okay so even in Islam there is this understanding of they will sometimes go up to a thorough yeah now they say a full of something mean you agree yeah I'm willing to pay this much more let's say the house is a hundred thousand now you're selling it to me for one hundred and thirty thousand me and you agree yeah it's one hundred and thirty we're fine but at least if I invest in half of the time in it I'm getting my hair you see i I feel the discussion here has kind of that point of discussion diverges into something about certain let's say mortgage schemes that are then cruel in return which I agree with you I agree

with that essence that look and I actually do feel in the UK it's not that easy to just I saw I saw I'm obviously not familiar with that system over there because here it's not that easy to just say well oh you defaulted on a payment out you go we've taken over the house it doesn't work that easily because the home is a sacred space and society does recognize that so either but they eventually get it usually now it is it takes up to a year okay right like a year but they eventually get it I was trying to more kind of like Zone in on the discussion of rebirth something personal I have a roofing company ok and

a lot of the houses I have to fix the roof on is classes the houses that had foreclosures ok ok and I have been to hundreds of houses hundreds of houses middle-class they have a swimming pool everything is perfect see America America here we could never have so important of opportunities they have the picture of the families they've left behind houses are empty nice houses you know they used you could tell this was a healthy middle-class family that has lost his house right lost its home or

all the yeah right that's probably more proper word lost a home and and probably now they're out wherever they are whatever situation they're they invested in this house you know these are houses less I made in the 1930s and they probably bought it in the 70s and they've been paying mortgage for the last five six years and then something bad happened and they can't pay it and a year went by and finally they got the notice they have to leave and so where this is happening but I you know I agree with you share on and I agree with everyone that says that look the bankers are you know people say bankers are bastards and they like this and they

like that and I will agree with you I've gotten I'm not here to justify their kind of caprices and their capricious kind of desires and and the amount of money they take back I get all of that I was simply saying that look first I was trying to more Zone in from well this thing of Reba because I don't see applying to this today to these kind of loans or mortgages or things like this because I feel that this came at a time in Islam where it was a zero-sum society so for example the amount of gold within a certain region was locked in there was no real way of having substantial

revenue for that region ever to change an unless you raided the neighboring region and brought in their gold yes maybe some people might discover a few you know a few piles of gold here or there a tiny amount but on a societal if I know the commodities were also currency no yes they were but but yeah but the river they had to some degree in their history yeah sure but even that even that even that societies agriculturally were not growing exponentially

there was like reasonably static yes maybe somebody kind of regenerated some new land but it wasn't overall changing the dynamics of a kind of geography so it was a zero-sum game so you whatever you had was pretty much locked in and Mikayla took this is why a lie saying that it becomes do let some banal up in here because once I take money I lend some money to somebody yeah because I'm talking about River here because they will you see when like let's say let's say H people when the societies are in depression and the economy is bad that's

a time where you need to be investing surely it back I am ends up happening what ends up happening is the rich people they do one of the two things they either store all their money so they don't put it back into society or because they're not getting the same interest rates because the interest rates have gone down now because you know the economy is in a bad shape so what they do is they put it in more risky investments more risky stocks hoping that I know I agree agree with you ship but what I'm saying here in this verse where lie saying that like a lot hakuna that this world it doesn't end up becoming dual attempt 811 yeah in that day and age if I let's say I'm a

poor person I borrow from you now 1000 pounds or 1000 dinars now you see I I don't have no other no other money he's gonna enter my world so how am I supposed to pay back so I'm hoping for something to happen and I'm struggling and now this debt is is this compound interest you're adding and it's ridiculous and then what you're gonna do is you're gonna end up kind of like saying well I know I'll enslave your kids or you become my slave or we'll do this and people would wish that you know what I wish that like the imminence that the earth will swallow me and I just died rather than having to face this

person and this is why Aladdin says he declared war on him because it was worse than murder now what I've said is that look in as societies progressed as the Industrial Age will emerge first of all money was demineralized and it became it went onto paper and then it was later so that was like money 2.0 and then it was digitized and so that's 3.0 and now we're going into like crypto currency which is 4.0 money is now we make it literally out of thin air like societies like banks can loan up to depending on

the laws and statutes maybe ten times or whatever the amount that they have and we know it's sure sure sure but which has an effect in terms of inflation sure but what it does is what it does is it allows prosperity because you see like as an example everybody got a stimulus check but what is the result of that I just want this to be very clear sure okay government takes a trillion to twenty trillion dollar debt further and because it gave

everybody two thousand dollars get everybody got $1,200 in the whole country okay so that has increased now what happens because the debt is increased companies have a higher mortgage now at the end because it has to go has somebody has to pay it right now because my company has to pay a higher rent for the what was previously my business store now the person who's selling the apples let's say have a grocery store and the person who is selling the orange he has the same issue he has to increase his price I have to increase my price for the customer sure so there is this and I agree with you but oblem is

that you cannot have a society that thinks that we will just keep on adding debt nope it look like Sharon like look I know I was watching a comparison of how it was on YouTube of how the US should have learned from the UK in the covin scenario and the UK had a different scheme with the furlough scheme now it - I'm sure because it was giving out money was giving out grants it was doing things but it handled it quite differently than America did now you see I'm not talking about schemes I'm not interested in schemes per se I'm trying to speak at a much you know greater level than that and I'm saying human societies as they kind of

prospered you see like if I'm a bank now I have a let's say you come to me and you say look I need a million dollars or okay that's we're thinking really huge but let's say even you need a million why because you wanna build a huge supermarket now I give you now somebody comes to me here comes up to LA he gives me a million dollars to save now I give you a million dollars you go pay this person Omar who now runs a company and sets up your thing you know he does that he brings that million and puts it back in my bank and invests it now in that

same way you see a bank is even though a bank is technically especially with it being digitized with they're giving out literally I mean it's not actual things they're necessarily giving out but it's allowing that money to regenerate an entire society even though that fund may have just mean one amount now let's say you come to me now and say in between actually the expenses have gone up you know I actually need another million now he's put that million with me I've given you that same million back which really you know okay you've got two million you've given him that million it's managed to set up an entire industry almost here this is a very low level

example but it's its example it's things like this that have allowed modern societies to prosper brother can I give you an alternative initial to two let's say I go to a bank and I go to two different people no one is with this system and one is with another system what's a nice assistant the river system right so let's just say the river system okay let's just suppose it's not robust it will say loan loan based system okay profit is known based okay I go to them and the first thing they'll say to me just please listen to what I'm about to

say and then chose absolutely I go to them and they say okay we'll give you a loan what's your collateral I said you know what I have my wife's properties what did you like it take her damn thing take her away and because they got their collateral they're not interested in my business plan they're not interested in if I'm actually my idea is good if it's worth it for them I go to another business and there I could say look I need a million dollars they don't ask me for collateral they're like can we

become your partners in this business show us your business plan hmm and I say okay fine uh here's my business plan I plan to do this did they look at my business plan they're like you know this business plan was written by my wife let's say right alright there you go people so you know they look at my wife's business plan and they're like wow this is amazing you know we we really like to you know be part of this you know in fact we like your business plan so much we think this is gonna really work we're gonna we're gonna put a special business consultant for you and we're gonna invest double

how about that okay now yeah exactly they see the geniusness of this business plan in its potential right so now we're you're telling me that I I'm now comparing this with somebody gives ten thousand says can you give me thirteen thousand back if that person's really smart he'll be like okay you want ten thousand for business can you tell me what this business is about you know what I'll be your partner and he'll if he sure the issue is this though ship but the issue is this ultimately both of these things are tapping into the same source which is

greed yeah it's a motivating factor for human beings now you're saying well on one hand the investor as opposed to loaning the creditor he's he feels that look actually you know what I'll just buy into the business it seems more worth it long term has no risk and the other side is all the risk the businessman has all the risk the bank has no risk yep the question is okay okay I understand what you're saying but there ought to be fair I can say to him give me $13,000 back fine but

the risk is all but if I'm actually doing it properly I would say okay what's the collateral no but you wouldn't have a collateral with like small these kind of non secured loans but the point would be that super hot right so far okay yeah right so you would if if you know that it's not a super high then what then you think that this person is intelligent and not stupid and knows what they're doing then why are you gonna ask back only for thirteen thousand why not become a business partner but the point here was more so not about I look I accept this

is now just saying this is a better way I accept the point was why was Rick like is rebar still the way it is understood historically because I would say that you see that kind of greed of human society to some extent isn't necessary however you define it this system that we have now if it's not ribah it's worse than River because the way you're gonna define it as what it was just personal loans giving people giving to each other and that was the problem if that was a problem this is a bigger problem no because there's a difference between loan shark Rhee and between what are

just standard loans so I so Stan it depends on the exactly depends on the or not yes sure but critic but but but but but but but but you see when you operate with credit cards when you operate with these things you operate within a greater framework that as many safety minutes so you have like even with credit cards you could go on debt management programs you can go on insolvency programs you can go on you see the system I'm not saying it's necessarily I'm not trying to justify this kind of banking thing greed but what I'm trying to say is it's not loan shark reaiize a-- you know you've got to

be legit like it's not that kind of a percentage that the banks are taking from you for a general non-secured wrong you may say that but the thing is that these card cards are taking putting that percentage on anyone who's defaulting right that's happening anyone who has a Discover card doesn't pay his bill he is to pay okay the same thing with the bank anybody who takes a loan has to pay do you know but wait a minute do you have to pay back if you can't do you have to pay back if you can't you see because here there are systems so for example

you would be means tested and Angie would cut it would take it to court I'm sure I mean and I'm not here to you see my point isn't once again to kind of say that it's not trying to justify some kind of banking system is trying to more vocalize on what is river and whether it is today still seen as these things as loans loans today to be fair this the general society I you see I already began by saying if I'm the person taking a loan then you have a different perspective to the one giving the loan

if I'm the one taking I don't want to give back personally a pain I don't even want to give that back that's my human kind of desires like if I took twenty thousand I would want it yeah wipe it off for me please this is as a human being this is how we would this how we feel the person giving is thinking I don't want to just give ten thousand and take back ten thousand then why the hell am i giving so I would say it the other way brother which is that if you're a type of person that has a good heart and somebody no I don't mean no yeah nobody I don't I don't mean look I don't mean I don't mean I please give me $10,000 I am sure you're not gonna give me just sales

another thing hey give me back 13,000 no of course right but you see no ship ship ship ship I'm speaking about society not about individuals I don't mean like if I went to a friend and I said to a friend no but for because what I think you're doing is you're giving examples of personal loans and then moving it into commercial no I'm talking about human species today for the forest to flourish the way society flourishes we can't just do it without this kind of without being able to get money now

now the people giving the money will not just give human beings as a species we're not just philanthropists you know we're not just like hey I've got this keep taking it away taking away from me yes we might do the occasional charitable act and we may be great people with good hearts but people are motivated by that what's in it for me you know the greatest 5-wood what's in it for me so if somebody comes hey give me five thousand but what's in it for me give me fifty thousand what's in it for me so and there's nothing wrong with that even the Quran even the Koran you see like if I could just say that even the Quran I think part of the problem is is

that we week that I feel I feel okay this is me okay and and and I could be wrong but I feel that the narrative no but even the Quran is cooling in CERN it does it not constantly Allah is only motivating us based on greed like oh you're gonna get a Jenna you know sorry I let your night in outdoor summer to a lot you're gonna get women you're gonna get sex you're gonna get alcohol you're gonna get this this is the whole nature of the afterlife that's motivating the impulses of in CERN because if Allah just said

come on just get it's gonna be better for you we'll be like that with that instant gratification is not there but do not add you know a thousand alas hero see the thing is in the Quran it says it's the immediate gratification it's not this hell nothing there's two types of selfishness right okay I can is selfishness wrong is this a wrong thing I don't think the Quran and it feels that selfishness is necessarily wrong we

need to be to some extent selfish to survive okay so there's an extreme amount okay sure I agree with you on that I agree with you on this absolutely I agree with you on this that look it's it's to what extent you take the selfishness that you cut off the rest of humanity you don't care about absolutely giving zakat for example so the point I'm trying to make is is that when you

make it an industry to do something good in the name of we're gonna actually rip everything you have away from you because the number of people that actually if you look at what happens about sure let me let me ask you then somebody could say that look but in Islam you're told will come out you know that who you know may you clear the lock or than Hassan and that you will give your life I come die for the sake of God if I mean how can you then justify one system but is it not is it not ripping

you out of your very existence yeah the thing is that that's a credit bargain what do you mean by a credit ballgame you have to pay a lot here that's the that's the thing that you know it's like what you well Harare says that experiment okay no okay I mean when you look at Quran in the issue of selfishness this is what you see you see the marshmallow experiment occasional marshmallow experiment is basically they come to a little child five years old okay and they say here's a marshmallow one marshmallow but if you wait five

minutes I'll give you a second one okay okay sure and so now majority of the kids are not able to wait five minutes to get the second one impatient no I have actually I have come across this experiment yeah I mean this study oh yeah yeah of it yeah followed these people for about 30 years this was done in the early 1970s okay and they saw look when it when it's time for exams and people other people are partying these are the people that were able to study for exams right these are the people that were able to get along and have suffered with their wives they were have able to have supper with their employees they were able to have a much

better quality of life because they were not falling for instant gratification one one could ask that is it not is it not good who's created that temperament in the first place and he's given some people a better capacity to deal with it is that in our a is that not that the dice has been cast is that not unfair yes see but do I'll be compelled to kill I don't I don't feel that I don't feel that we are driven to kill I feel that we have the capacity to kill but I don't

think we feel an urge as human beings that we need to kill as an urge I don't think so generally speaking no I mean no but there are many urges that we have and there's some of them are negative some are positive is the point right so but I'm just saying these are expressed for Shh sure okay so I'm asexual Anarchy or should there be like some code of conduct no there should be rules I feel that they are not promoting an anarchism but I'm just saying that it seems that when it comes to justify one set of rules we'd feel that look

it's okay it doesn't matter you know it's all it's for a better let's say here because I was saying well you know you're saying I agree with you that much of the banking thing is sometimes very easy by the way just I'm saying this is a side point just shows you just can probably appreciate this and and I'm sure you already know this but when the quote I mentioned of the things that we generally consider enjoyment like women don't take that away from us don't sit just in case you're about to say no there's no worries because people just like they were with Malcolm X they were

complaining like oh you want me to live Islam and I can't have alcohol you want me to live in them and I can't be with girls you want me to live with this then you know I can't do this and so you find the early Quranic Maki Quran specifically talking about these issues in response to some of the complaints people are like I could believe in God I've had so many people tell me that yeah well I'll believe in God but you know I can't really leave you know such-and-such I can't leave alcohol or I can't leave this so then the response is those people are the people that can appreciate when they read in the Quran okay well I guess I'll just wait right rather than not hear anything about it at all right at least there's some hope from them for them

I personally should agree with you that I feel that the Quran the imagery in the Quran I don't actually go with the fact it's a literal I mean I feel it's symbolic because of things like this it's full it's just a motivating factor for certain people and that's my point that it's motivation and that's for people Martine Miller says if we could translate some of the verses for non Arabic people but that's a hadith about that look what the afterlife actually is not no eye has ever seen no ears heard neither has any mind ever conceptualized

not even the concept so yeah I totally agree with you on that I was just saying oh it is interesting that you see when it comes to Islamic things and I'm calling them is but I personally feel that like what is the difference between Islamic finance and just regular finance except in essence it's just wood you know yeah because you've just give it like I feel they just give her a veneer finance but there is a laurel finance moral moral financing and then there's immoral financing and and and I would say that

all religions all the Abrahamic religions Christianity Judaism Islam they've all been against loan based profit type of because you know when we under when we're trying to understand this is a longer debate and I show show no no I understand that we go into the understanding of what is interest is it Reba is it not River it's also helpful to see what Christians are defining as interest it's also helpful to see what Jews are defining as their you know interest from their perspective because this is laws that have been revealed to them prior to us and but I mean even the Islamic example the Islamic one is

usually just a it's just loopholes isn't it which is ironically kind of frowned upon in Islam it's like it's just like kind of loop holding the whole thing and saying well actually and by the way charging more usually Islamic finance is always more expensive than your regular kind of two problems with that right one problem is it's like putting in a Mercedes part in a shorter car you're trying to make something Islamic that can't become a stomach that's just the

bottom truth right well you I would argue that Islamic I would obviously be fine with it which is that even though you're paying more but if somewhere along the line you have a bad luck you're gonna get your share but that as I've said I don't think that is you know is that concept of foreclosure the way you're saying I think that varies based on country to country in the West it's not as straightforward as you're just saying you know they're gonna say well they just come in and wipe everything and I think based in certain countries the laws vary on that so okay let's say a bank which is a for-profit organization

give you a house that they own and you're paying them back and you now can't feel fulfilled that contract it's in there it's in there but yeah have you not have you not lived there was that paid were those payments not in lieu of rent like let's say you didn't live in that banks house I was but let's say I'm paying five hundred pounds a month to let's say a mortgage company now if I spent five years five years here if I didn't live here I would have been

renting for five years and in fact I would have been renting most likely at a slightly higher cost is this I mean is that not in love for that anyway because you don't put that type of investment in an apartment you don't like put personal like you don't wouldn't build a swimming pool in an apartment you wouldn't chain make any changes to the interior of the house you wouldn't do a you wouldn't the female the wife wouldn't have that type of investment in an apartment that she would in her house that she later on loses right sure some people do to be fair some people rent apartments on let's say they rent homes and they will bring in fit they will furnish the whole place and they do as well there are I've

actually seen people that have actually done that they've lived in a rented house for like several years they've done up the whole flooring done everything REE you know they have done I mean I'm just saying that's people and it's up to people what they want to do it is other differences for example in an apartment something goes wrong I have somebody to call I can get it fixed right somebody takes my ax somebody has responsibility for maintaining that apartment when I have a mortgage on my house and something goes wrong the faucets not working or anything I have to invest but who's who's using tiles who's using that faucet in that tap who's using it you are so essentially correct I think you

would be essentially correct that it's kind of like a rent that you just lost your house it's like you just lost your apartment some degree but was that but then then it but then here's here's where the problem is the problem with problem huh now go for it I said go for it she who is the problem the problem the problem is is that that is not what the client was expecting to happen that was not the expectation the expectation was not that I would pay twenty years out of 30 and then still lose my house which has

happened with millions of people in America and if you look at this day and you know I'm and that thing look I know I'm probably gonna be coming off here have some people thinking you know I'm probably gonna get some promotion as a full closure kind of run my own department here I'm not justifying what the bank's do in terms of you know taking people's homes and stuff like that I obviously am NOT you know I'm speaking from the part of the public but I do recognize that let's be honest in the West where we live people generally take they reach a fork in the road where

you either rent or you buy now if you buy it will be generally much cheaper and it will give you soulfully some return on investment it will also be a home if you do manage to see it through for your children it will give you capital in the country if you just rent fine I mean you can as well it's not I don't feel and in some European countries they tend to rent more but I just and the Islamic mortgages I feel are just a loophole it's doing exactly the same thing and what they're doing is just charging you more and giving it an Islamic veneer so that the problem with

that is that it's like like I said it's like trying to put a Mercedes part in a theater car unless you don't have are you then saying that Islam is not for all times because it is so what are Muslims meant to do in this thing is not this fragmented system it's a whole system so the social political economic system comes in one package it's that not you just is that just not utopian dosha the system of everybody is just nice and they just help you and you know this when we need help they just gonna give us money let's take democracy right you know six forms of

democracy okay so you could say I'll help you understand it this way at least this is way one of the ways I understand this is that let's say me and you agreed as an experiment agreeing on experiments made you do this experiment we both agree that we are going to adapt the most liberal of all the opinions in all the fifth and we're gonna make that our Islam okay I mean you just as an experiment we say okay let's look at what the edge is wait a minute I wonder

if anybody's actually done that I'm joking my views are based on the Quran was from that people behave yourselves okay so let's say we take within the mainstream the most liberal opinions okay and and from that we can construct this world which will not be utopian then sure but it's still a system in itself it's a complete system in itself it's a political social order okay so the fact that Islam can and has had and and probably will have some source of

sort of social order of its own is not a matter of utopian it's a matter of that it's true it is it is it is a factual okay okay tell us what is the what is the Islamic response then tell us well so the thing is that this wouldn't happen because number one it's Nam would be a is some somewhat of a welfare state it would be a socialist so there would be a minimum Corbin heads huh and now I just said Kobe in Jeremy Corbyn yeah so so I feel that the government would take

responsibility for certain basic needs so not exactly communist so people would be provided homes I feel yes but one couldn't one-engine one could argue that in the prophets lifetime that wasn't done for the people then okay I mean but I'm just saying in the prophets time I know people came this data so far hands people build houses with their hands so if if you if you can get your family members and your tribes people back and they want to help you build your house you know in some

place fine hmm okay so so let me but how would society prosper I mean you couldn't envisage that everywhere you go you just get a free home the whole of humanity would you know everything would just be given to them because see is that not utopian that everywhere hamdulillah this some government or some rulership or systems are saying oh my mozambique you know oh you need a home oh oh you need a car oh you need a hey let you know the world wouldn't work like that's a pseudo penis initiative so so let me express two things about that one part part is you're absolutely right

right say that part again she say that part now during the Russian Bolshevik Revolution he went to Russia he wanted to talk to Lenin but Lenin was on his deathbed so he got he got a chance to talk to Trotsky okay Wow okay and so which which chef is this sorry we share huh which chef chef who saying Ahmed Ahmed sir hindi okay so he went to Russia the British was looking for him so he said I'll just go

to Russia and talk to them okay we're not talking about Mudgett didn't forth Ernie no no he he's way back cuz he's in the time Akbar and Trotsky and he says look we have this system in Islam and it's like you said this utopian view you maybe if you want to put it that way and so Trotsky asked him one question he said okay is there anywhere on earth you have this [Laughter] okay okay he says I was so embarrassed I couldn't look him in the eyes again there's nowhere for us to even express

that okay this is what Islam would look like in practice in the modern times right yeah but I mean is that not a false ideals oh you couldn't call it utopian or practical because it hasn't manifested itself but is that to say Islam is never manifested itself I mean it has but you know what we had before this was kingship it was not it's not yeah the Prophet was actually clear about this of course of course I mean I don't believe that these dynasties were necessarily the Arab imperialism hmm -

the Ottomans he called it this is all imperialism and when Pakistan was being made he said maybe we have a chance to remove the stains of Arab imperialism that that I mean not much luck with that right now this is home and a phenomenon going on yeah but okay I mean it's me chef shall we take some quick questions I know we've been ok we've been going on quite a while I know you are time restricted as well share and right

people if you've got any questions feel free to fire away a ma hain I'll just read out some what Superman you do in it shukran shukran Restylane Raistlin you're doing it as always mine he said whether or not it's halal western financial institutions are not sustainable and are often bailed out I mean I I would as I said in the beginning I agree this is not about to me about in defense of certain institutions it's rather saying I feel that the what is critiqued is juxtaposed with a bit of a fantasy as opposed to a reality that's

all sarlaac 50 stars you do in it most massages rely on donations from business owners and most business owners have taken bank loans how could that then we ever reconciled I don't know if there's a comment on that that most machines rely on people who rely on loans I'm not I'm just my position is clear for me the whole River thing is not about an individual person it's about the system the individuals have to live their life of course so what are they gonna do of course of course I agree

I said that's good for having that work but the reality is you're a nice guy you're a nice guy you got that much nice [Laughter] no I meant we're saying that - I wasn't saying you - you I was saying as - in the into an invisible person I was saying like oh you've got taqwa that was obviously you have I was saying it's my sense of humor here right so silac has said oh we just read Salix thing out Riesling much love to the guests and to

move this out shukran right back at you Zacky a super chat shukran for your super chair I'm a black river from the US Islam saved my life consumerism and hyper sexuality will destroy the West more than any invasion may Allah keep us safe I mean I mean a comment on that thought sure I mean I mean Claire Jones you do in it with the with the stars Saleh has says has supported for months see now I can see all of these now because I've integrated them into the software to last us today

somebody said Mufti I didn't catch or your view on RIBA is well I've got a whole video on YouTube my view in essence is the Reaper of the Quran does not refer to interest based loans it's more speaking about lone chakra which is extortionate in the true extreme meaning of what even what loan sharks means today so it's specific to loan sharks and not to this kind of a banking system that's not to say the banking system is a nice thing as in their pleasant people and philanthropies they're not but I'm just saying the rebuffed the Quran in my view doesn't apply to that that's all I feel

that you share would feel that it does and it's the that's that was the whole kind of dialogue that was going on al-qaeda Zaman has asked Allah al Qaeda Zaman his name is Arthur a sermon he is our chef comment on Pakistan's Hindu temple controversy chef are you familiar with the whole Hindu temple thing though not intended to look at it but in general I don't know in general there's nothing wrong with the you know people giving people their place of worship I don't know if there are political you

can say ambitions or strings attached to this or you know who is playing if this is you know just purely a religious thing or if it has political aspects I don't know anything about it sure I mean what's what's happening is they're building a temple in Islamabad and they've offered they've said that look you know we've got this land allocated we're gonna build this temple Hindu temple and people have kind of stopped for testing they said oh it from Ron Khan wants to build a Hindu temple should build it in his own backyard where he's guys personal land why this is the land of though he'd we're not

gonna do blah blah blah in my personal opinion I think it's a I personally think it's a very kind gesture to build a temple for Pakistani Hindus that live in Pakistan at the end of the day Pakistan is a country of I think it's 200 million Muslims why are you insecure about some Hindus having a temple I mean who cares what do you feel if even if they have their Morty's and they have the idol so what yeah I mean it doesn't mean you you know you you nobody's telling you to go you're saying yeah it's not like nobody's forcing you to go to a temple I mean people protesting I I saw a clip of

some guys saying that you know some people with the and they were saying watch if they build it we're gonna do this and somebody was saying he'd even flown in just to protest and I was like what the hell zebra ji here doing it doing it with the super cherry Sherman de Kathy you see you guys all this love and support you embarrass us we have to like I said we have to kind of I don't know prepare a meal or call you guys down for something why is your room the same color you sat in the same building actually you're right it looks like they're connected this we are connected because the hearts

are connected yeah you have to understand that obviously what is time and space what what are these things we right so right somebody said easy with the humor the English humor share his American he does not necessarily get all the humor yeah yeah and then I think there is something definitely British humor and then on top of that I've got another crazy sense of humor so I do apologize for my joke shift though so view on Turkey converting the Hagia saw

the Hagia Sophia back to a mosque I think it's very wrong and I I agree with you share but what it would do that and I know that some people have defended this in terms of Islamic law but I go back to what Olmec did when he went and prayed in in the the church and he was afraid and I'm afraid of the same thing and does not have its Creek a bad environment for Turkey well sorry the connection slightly was intermittent

there's the the last part that you said I said Greece is not happy Russia is not happy and you know how does Sophia like their God but you know it's like the god of the Christians literally no I changed it from you know into a museum but now changing it from museum to a mosque I personally will feel based upon the Quran that your prayers will not be accepted if you pray there subhanAllah Wow Wow um even though I wouldn't personally issue that fatwa but I agree with the sentiment but I agree

with the sentiment I feel that we as Muslims why do we feel insecure why do we like I honestly do not get you know there's almost 2 billion of us in the world like why are we so insecure like oh I need to islamís eyes everything I need to that used to be a must or you know that belongs in a Muslim land it used to be let's take it back just Ernie don't let Hindus build something don't let yeah we should be comfortable in our skin like that so I totally 100% agree with you on the sentiment share guys with that I think we taken up enough of Chef

Omar almost kind of time I know damn you know what we have to get you back and do an episode on just the qarnain because that was actually one of the main reasons I was breaking the Sheikh on but the conversations got so exciting and so interesting share if people want to connect with you and reach out to you where can they find you on social media would you like to be a guest on my show now oh sure it's a flush it will do that

you know you know like for like YouTube and you'll find me eventually alright people that's YouTube is the one and for our show just what's happening chef and will definitely will set that up for your show sorry and we'll set that up guys as always it's been an absolute pleasure it's been amazing discussing with cher or mark tonight taking in your comments taking in your questions do you remember to like to subscribe I'm gonna put the put the page up people remember on YouTube click the notifications and once again absolute shook on to you share for taking your

time out today Salaam aleikum what I feel and those that were with you in Chicago