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Recordings › Birth Of Islamic Orthodoxy And Institutionalisation | Mufti Abu Layth · 13 Feb 2023 › Segment 2 of 6

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Apophatic definition: the early main body defined by what it was not

hadeeth ahadith ahaadeeth hadis hadees ahaadith malik ibn anas malik bin anas imam maalik imam malik ibn anas imaam imams prayer leader shari'ah shariat sharee'ah muftis sunna sunnat sunan prophetic practice imaan eemaan eeman mutazilite mu'tazilah akhirah akhira aakhirah akhirat hereafter wahy wahi wahee sahabah sahabi sahabiyyah sahabiyat as-salaf salaf al-salih salaf us-salih al-salaf early generations ahl al-sunnah ahl as-sunnah ahlus sunnah ahl al-sunna sunnis shiah shiite shi'i twelver ithna ashari ibadah ibada ibaadah ibadat

LessonRecorded 13 Feb 2023Segment 2 of 6 in the recording2023-02-13-S02

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This segment5:46 to 10:49 · 5 min 03 sGeneral teaching

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Early Muslims had no creed checklist: you belonged to the main body as long as you did not hold the positions of the known sects.

In more detail

Mufti Abu Layth says the early main body also defined itself apophatically, by what it was not: the centre was defined by the periphery, as in not holding the Shia doctrine of the imamate and not declaring Muslims non-Muslim for a major sin. He notes that Imam Malik's Mudawwana answers tens of thousands of questions and mentions the Shia and the Mu'tazila but never gives a checklist of what to believe. He says this reflected the Sunnah of the Prophet, which did not inquire into people's beliefs beyond belief in Allah, revelation, the messengers, the afterlife and Allah's power, so faith remained in its natural state in the time of the salaf.

Position stated

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Mufti Abu Layth says that in the time of the salaf the main body of Muslims was identified by contrast with outgroups, with no checklist of what to believe.

In his words

“there is no checklist to believe there is only the in-group is identified in contrast to the elk group”

Category: historical claim

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Transcript

machine5:46 to 10:49 · click a time to seek · dotted terms open the glossary
5:09

used logic and reason voice of reason to and uh he and compassion as a key tool in to to instrumentalize the Sharia his views which are Imam Malik holds many similar if not some more outstretched views but why was Imam Malik never cast aside or ostracized because he was Hadith he was not only well involved in the Hadith project he was a dawn of the Sciences of Hadith

5:46

so in many ways he was then untouchable so okay so you've got this the other way that people had this understanding for the at least the first 200 years of Islam was they identified the in-group by um it's an app of uh apathetic it's up of uh by an apathetic methodology well you know what let me bring this up right all right so

6:24

uh yeah apathetic that's it yeah so apophatic methodology it's by what you negating by what you're not so how so the center is defined by the periphery so the periphery the edges defined with the centuries so if you're standing at the edge then and I'm not there I know I'm not at the edge and by contrast I must be closer to the center so for example we would say we are the main body of Muslims because we are not people who

7:01

let's say the Shia who believe in Imam ship we are not people who call non-mus sorry call Muslims non-muslim by committing a major sin the Harvard we are not so you're not saying what you are you simply State what you are not an apophatic methodology so you you just take the negative and so you define the in-group by contrasting it to an out group you don't give a definition for the in-group you

7:37

just say we are not that group so this is how and that's a very interesting phenomenon because the question is well why didn't somebody give it a definition for the in-group and they don't so Imam Malik's Madonna is answering over thirty thousands a hundred thousand but they never explain never they never tell you what you need to believe they do discuss the Imam Malik says he mentions Shia in his mother he mentions

8:14

he mentions he mentions Mata Zilla he mentions but he never tells you what you believe to be there is no checklist to believe there is only the in-group is identified in contrast to the elk group so as long as you don't do these things let's say you don't curse the companions you don't do the fear of Muslims you don't then you're fine you're within the main body of Muslims now that is is vast because it's still not there's no

8:53

Inquisition into what you actually believe and that is how the Sunnah of the prophet sallallahu because the Sunnah of the Prophet was not to go around and say what do you believe about this how do you believe this oh you don't believe that Chuck him out what do you believe about this it wasn't it was look as long as you don't worship other Idols you don't do this you don't do this you believe in Allah you accept the message so the when these few uh criteria they did have but they didn't used to mention because it's so obvious it's so commonplace that are meant to believe I believe in Allah I believe in Revelation

9:31

he wrote and Messengers I believe in a life after after death and I believe Allah is all powerful yeah that that of course that that every child had and that makes you a Muslim so there was no definition to there was no checklist as long as you don't curse companions as long as you don't curse the wives of the Prophet as long as you don't be you're from the main body of Muslims now you may say well okay but I uh understand this thing like this and this thing when nobody is checking nobody's there to check that

10:10

this is your and in this way Iman is in its natural fitrostate so and this is the lifetime of the salaf the salaf of the sahaba the turbo turbine that's it in their lifetime this is how Islam was so in Imam Malik's lifetime there was no such thing as to be a Sunni you need this apart from saying I believe in Allah in Revelation uh and The Messengers and life after death there was nothing like that that they didn't even say because it was so obvious everybody every Muslim accepted that so

Paragraphs overlapping 5:46 to 10:49. Full text on the recording page.

Cite this segment

Stable id, transcript version and tier are part of the citation. Every change to a transcript is logged.

Mufti Abu Layth Archive, segment 2023-02-13-S02, auto-transcribed, may contain errors. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/f_4jnua3arq/s/2/ (accessed 1 November 2026)

APA 7
Mufti Abu Layth. (2023, February 13). Apophatic definition: the early main body defined by what it was not [Video, segment 2023-02-13-S02, auto-transcribed, may contain errors]. Mufti Abu Layth Archive. Retrieved November 1, 2026, from https://muftiabulayth.org/r/f_4jnua3arq/s/2/
Chicago author-date
Mufti Abu Layth. 2023. "Apophatic definition: the early main body defined by what it was not." Video, segment 2023-02-13-S02, auto-transcribed, may contain errors. Mufti Abu Layth Archive. Recorded February 13, 2023. Accessed November 1, 2026. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/f_4jnua3arq/s/2/
BibTeX
@misc{abulayth-2023-02-13-S02,
  author = {Mufti Abu Layth},
  title = {{Apophatic definition: the early main body defined by what it was not}},
  year = {2023},
  month = {2},
  date = {2023-02-13},
  howpublished = {\url{https://muftiabulayth.org/r/f_4jnua3arq/s/2/}},
  url = {https://muftiabulayth.org/r/f_4jnua3arq/s/2/},
  organization = {Mufti Abu Layth Archive},
  urldate = {2026-11-01},
  note = {Segment 2023-02-13-S02, auto-transcribed, may contain errors}
}
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