Birth Of Islamic Orthodoxy And Institutionalisation | Mufti Abu Layth

the birth of Orthodoxy and institutionalization because we were we got discussing in our patreon Meetup oh by the way those of you that um do want to sign up to that just go to patreon and you can it gives you different tiers and you can connect I did make a post um in fact I'll make a separate statement about this at the end about people when they want to connect and they want because it's difficult you know on these other social media you can't really give that time um so you have that option in patreon you can have one-to-one discussions you

can book yourself in okay now look on our patreon uh Meetup we got chatting on the group Meetup and we were just talking and we ended up speaking about these issues and then one of them did say that have you discussed this in your meaning with malm and I did say look you know what I'll I'll do it again and so I'm sure I have in the past but I'll I'll kind of expand on this slightly so Orthodoxy that there's it's I think it's very interesting to um to

kind of examine Orthodoxy so Orthodoxy is well people would understand it as saying well it's the correct belief but it's not just the correct belief it's like saying the belief that has been deemed correct okay now that's interesting because when you say well deemed correct institutions come into play and power comes into play so it's very fascinating like this was the phenomenon we were discussing when we look at Sunni

Islam we find that for the first almost 200 years there clearly is the main body of Muslims the main um what you call the sawadul Adam the great you know the the main body of people who were main Muslims but they didn't have a name so this name Allah Sunnah didn't exist for until over you know decades over 200 years after the prophet so there was no name for the main body of Muslims so if you said to someone well who are you they would just say you know we're Muslim but

the other there were many other sects that had emerged so the Shia had emerged the huarach had emerged let's say the rawafed the different sects had emerged so how did you identify as I'm from the main body of Muslims so what you had was there was an identitarian methodology that took place and that was that by association so and one symbol of that was that you

were engaged in in the study of the study and um the project of Hadith so if you were engaged in the Hadith project as a mahadith of Islam you by default were at the center because the Hadith represented the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam and even though Hadith is not synonymous with Sunnah in you know in especially in Maliki and hanafi

Islam the main the majority of Sunni Islam because they're the majority in numbers um but Hadith still is an attempt to capture the historical records of the Prophet so if you're somebody engaged in that you are by in the center you this is one way of saying I'm uh obviously the word Sunni didn't exist but it's like saying I'm a Proto Sunni I'm from the main body of Muslims I'm not from a deviant sect okay this is why for example Imam Allah was one of the greatest Scholars of Islam he wasn't Bulletproof

you see because if you were involved in the Hadith project you were that was one layer of armor against this being ostracized so he wasn't because he was not involved in the Hadith project and hence he was a Target and hence he was cast aside from the main body of Muslims according to certain Scholars of the time they considered him not they considered him a devian because he wasn't from the Hadith project so because if you think of it Imam of hanifa who was involved in reason and he

used logic and reason voice of reason to and uh he and compassion as a key tool in to to instrumentalize the Sharia his views which are Imam Malik holds many similar if not some more outstretched views but why was Imam Malik never cast aside or ostracized because he was Hadith he was not only well involved in the Hadith project he was a dawn of the Sciences of Hadith

so in many ways he was then untouchable so okay so you've got this the other way that people had this understanding for the at least the first 200 years of Islam was they identified the in-group by um it's an app of uh apathetic it's up of uh by an apathetic methodology well you know what let me bring this up right all right so

uh yeah apathetic that's it yeah so apophatic methodology it's by what you negating by what you're not so how so the center is defined by the periphery so the periphery the edges defined with the centuries so if you're standing at the edge then and I'm not there I know I'm not at the edge and by contrast I must be closer to the center so for example we would say we are the main body of Muslims because we are not people who

let's say the Shia who believe in Imam ship we are not people who call non-mus sorry call Muslims non-muslim by committing a major sin the Harvard we are not so you're not saying what you are you simply State what you are not an apophatic methodology so you you just take the negative and so you define the in-group by contrasting it to an out group you don't give a definition for the in-group you

just say we are not that group so this is how and that's a very interesting phenomenon because the question is well why didn't somebody give it a definition for the in-group and they don't so Imam Malik's Madonna is answering over thirty thousands a hundred thousand but they never explain never they never tell you what you need to believe they do discuss the Imam Malik says he mentions Shia in his mother he mentions

he mentions he mentions Mata Zilla he mentions but he never tells you what you believe to be there is no checklist to believe there is only the in-group is identified in contrast to the elk group so as long as you don't do these things let's say you don't curse the companions you don't do the fear of Muslims you don't then you're fine you're within the main body of Muslims now that is is vast because it's still not there's no

Inquisition into what you actually believe and that is how the Sunnah of the prophet sallallahu because the Sunnah of the Prophet was not to go around and say what do you believe about this how do you believe this oh you don't believe that Chuck him out what do you believe about this it wasn't it was look as long as you don't worship other Idols you don't do this you don't do this you believe in Allah you accept the message so the when these few uh criteria they did have but they didn't used to mention because it's so obvious it's so commonplace that are meant to believe I believe in Allah I believe in Revelation

he wrote and Messengers I believe in a life after after death and I believe Allah is all powerful yeah that that of course that that every child had and that makes you a Muslim so there was no definition to there was no checklist as long as you don't curse companions as long as you don't curse the wives of the Prophet as long as you don't be you're from the main body of Muslims now you may say well okay but I uh understand this thing like this and this thing when nobody is checking nobody's there to check that

this is your and in this way Iman is in its natural fitrostate so and this is the lifetime of the salaf the salaf of the sahaba the turbo turbine that's it in their lifetime this is how Islam was so in Imam Malik's lifetime there was no such thing as to be a Sunni you need this apart from saying I believe in Allah in Revelation uh and The Messengers and life after death there was nothing like that that they didn't even say because it was so obvious everybody every Muslim accepted that so

that's just an obvious so now what happens is after the 200s the decades into it and it's all it's disputable where does it originate in my research I feel this originates the birth of this is with the Hulk the creation of the Quran Masala that gives that is the the premise and the pretext which gives rise to the opportunity to now um

structuralize and Forge Orthodoxy that we can now because Quran is the first Masala in which Scholars take a stance I mean which and by the way there was no precedence in this because it doesn't really make sense that they were president I know people tried to say those precedents it's it's really all fabricated that this was a new Masala nobody was discussing this Masala before this is why they struggled with it because because if they didn't struggle they would have just said look we're just following what everybody else believed what are you picking on us the issue was

there was no precedent in this Masala so you know people try to say Imam Malik said this that all the Quran isn't Creations all these things aren't made up they didn't even discuss this this was not even a discussion it's like saying you know Isaac Newton was discussing quantum physics look he's got a quote saying quantity you know that they weren't or here uh you know Albert Einstein is discussing the iPhone and he's got you know the iPhone 13 he's got a comment on it you know that that's fabricated that didn't happen at that time they weren't discussing these things so with this debate

Scholars took a stance now that's a different debate in itself and no point really getting into that debate but the point was that the first discussion began because when the scholar said that oh the Quran is not created that the counter question was well okay so is it God and you see they kind of found themselves between a rock and a hard place because well it's not well it is God like it's the speech of God saying okay what is the speech of God God then this gets confusing because you're

like well hmm what do I say to that and so they said well right so they didn't know where to put it because if you say it's not God then it's created if you say it is God it's but it's not him then it's with him then you've got God and another piece of God God thing that is with God so you've got two gods so this is philosophically It's you're in a Range so so to get around this the olama they came up with oh well it's an attribute of God it's a sifa this is the birth of sifat by the way so nobody

prior to that had ever used these words in this sense and I know some people try to justify it but really it's you know you know okay you can try to justify it but you know if you're going to call a spade a spade and just be honest you're gonna know that the birth of this issue is with the Quran that they didn't know where to put this now so they said well oh this is okay let's call it an attribute of God so theology starts to get formed it is the birth of Orthodoxy that we as the main body of Muslims are people who

believe who affirm remember first it was we negate we don't curse the companions we don't do this we don't now it's we affirm we believe there's a checklist that the Quran is not created if you tick this you are now in you are with the in-group so it became a to-do like there's a criteria checklist so this is why you see so for example the greatest Sunni Scholars theologians like who's the father of Allison I know people say Imam Ahmed is the father of

Allah that's a different discussion but really the uh from what I've my people if if they have uh any evidence to the contrary but what I've come across in my readings is that the first person to use the word Atlas was and this is way into the 200 history because originally from the matasila he's not even from Sunni Islam originally he is the nephew of who is a major figure in the Mata Zilla Legacy great thinker of matazilla's you know

denomination sect now actually breaks away from him and he he then starts to amend certain beliefs because they have remember main Sunni mainstream Muslims don't have a checklist of what makes you the in-group they just know we are not the out group it starts in that Century then people start adding to this list then okay we are people who affirm that the Quran is not created take then people add another thing okay we are people who affirm this another thing

before the end of the century you've got our uh Imam tahu in his you've got over 160 what is it 164 165 things on his checklist now that if now if you don't even believe in one of these you are out see first you go back a hundred years if you don't curse the Companions and you don't curse this you are in the the the the periphery defines the center that if you're not on the edge you're in the center

and the center is fluid there's an amorphosity there is this kind of like it's a flow structure okay it's it's in free flow but this is how Iman was taught by the prophet salallahu it wasn't a checklist it was just taught and the living tradition was you just learn it and so considering look people like Imam Malik they writing at Lens I mean volumes 35 000 36 000 Mercedes they're arguing about things like if you use a nail in the wall of a neighbor what do you do what's the compensation for this if you

build a wall around here if you tie your horse over there if you if you bring eight bags of Wheat and do this if you translate this into this why are they not mentioning oh what do you actually believe in to be a Muslim they don't do it and there is wisdom with the salaf there is wisdom now you see you fast forward 100 years and now you have a checklist now we can measure you against the list if you don't meet up to one of these things we will Chuck you out

see now that also you see the question is if you go back a hundred years that had an amorphosity it was amorphous it was like didn't have a set structure it it's like like a floating cloud okay now you fast forward 100 years and people could argue well there's a crystallinity you know where you have a substance that's amorphous and then um you the the crystallinity of it the crystalline structure is it's so the carbons are so tightly packed together they're all structured so

people may say well okay there's this crystallinity to it now but the thing is there's also power because you see if I'm in the in group and I don't want you in the in-group then I add on a certain another checklist because now people are adding you know everybody once you've started it it's now people can they can keep adding well okay well to be a Sunni Muslim you also need this now you know anybody who does the or to be a Sunni Muslim you can never do this now

so it's interesting now and people keep adding and the adding maybe they're doing it genuinely maybe you know I'm not saying they're disingenuous but what you can't take away is the human boundedness with power structures that when insan is in a position of power and you are arguing against there is always an element of you see you you what you're embedding in the structure so so foreign for example let's say I'll give you an example well okay okay not

to expand too much but let's take a very brief look at the concept of HMR now this is not to debate the issue of each man that can be for another day but let's say this is a tool that Scholars have that they say well this is the consensus and consensus is uh it's it's a card that can that holds weight like let's say not to say it's a game but let's say if we're using that analogy we can use this to show that look why why are we doing this because we have ijima okay but the question when you look at Imam shafi's time when they're trying to discuss what are the tools to make Sharia they say well okay

the tools to make sure they are are have to be proven from the Quran and Sunnah so basically either the Quran teaches you're the prophet taught you but the prophet never taught ishma because that wouldn't that would make sense so Prophet never taught each man that that's clear so you could say well but we the scholars they they deduce this oh sorry they induced this principle by looking at different things so they looked at things and they came out with this principle which is which is fine there's nothing wrong with that and okay that's great so the scholars came up with this for a

preservation method sure now did some Scholars ever question this of course they did you know like IBN has them for example questions it other people question what type of each man who's each my age that family of the Prophet each man of all Muslims each month just you know there's all kinds of they may be absurd questions where people say so okay now you see so this is a tool that the scholars they induct by inductive reasoning they they kind of arrived at these now you see well somebody might say well

I don't know you know I'm not so convinced so this is now on the checklist okay anybody who doesn't accept this is no longer part of the main body of Muslims we just add it on so it becomes like well okay well now I can't question that it's a bit like the cancel culture which is also about power see like if you look at the mega wokism today and it's it's going mad I just saw a clip today with some Senator and some woman was discussing something and and they're discussing the term about I think

pregnancy and they say uh you know and she's asking him that oh do you and he I think he's asking her something about well you're saying uh persons or people capable of pregnancy and so he says I thought this issue was a women's issue you know are we not discussing women's rights and she says well you know it doesn't it's not just to women you know obviously women get pregnant some women don't get pregnant some let's say trans people some men some non-binary some pan Brian whatever she comes she mentions all these things so she says well all of

these categories uh are capable of pregnancy so so she says do you so he says I I don't I don't understand like I I thought so she says oh don't you do you not believe that men can get pregnant so he says uh no and so she says oh so you by that very comment or inciting violence against uh transsexual transphobia and violence against these people and I think and he says where am I where am I doing I'm just asking he says I just said no I

didn't know that and and and it's and you know this is so that's a whole different discussion and what's actually really interesting on all of this stuff on a side note is people keep bringing you know it's like Dave Chappelle said people keep bringing up these things and they bring up uh transphobic but really the trans Community themselves are usually not that they're usually very fine and very understanding of this and they're not the people causing this kind of um commotion they're not at all in fact Dave Chappelle on one of these things says look I get so many letters from the trans Community saying look um and you

know we've I don't know who these people but you know they're not speaking on behalf of us so that's a different discussion in and of itself that why so but the point is this cancel culture it becomes another add-on thing because this power involved so oh if you don't do that you're automatically out of the in-group so this is really fascinating that how the birth of Orthodoxy takes place this is a very academic discussion so it's very separate from um a kind of confessional learning of Islam and even very separate from a devotional

uh attitude of practicing Islam this is a very academic Pursuit that how Orthodoxy was born and you can't always separate the power structures from even if people you see because it's naive to assume that only people that are disingenuous Act from Power that that's incredibly that that that's totally not true everybody acts from Power and and doesn't mean you're disingenuous it just

has to add an element of neutrality to it that's all so and a good example is like this like let's say um foreign let's say we wanted to and this is going to go into another discussion um let's say we wanted to discuss dispensations in Islam like things that you're allowed to do let's say by default you like let's say you had to do but you don't need to do wudu because you're ill or you're so you can do tmum or there's something you've got an

injury or there's something now you see or it could be something else let's say you need to shorten the pre or there was something totally different you needed to whatever it was whatever the thing but you needed a Rosa now the question is well you see language when I say to you that oh this is um you know like oh that's an inconvenience to to do you see language is loaded

so imagine I said well wudu must be done and cannot be substituted by them simply by inconvenience oh so this is a hanafi clear hanifi I know the malikis are much more relaxed on substituting will do with Timon but let's say the hanafi is a very strict so they say well Voodoo cannot be substituted by team mom by simply inconvenience so you see but the question here is that when you say inconvenience you've already rigged the game because inconvenience is already a

subjective opinion so now I say well what's an inconvenience okay so there may be some very trivial things that maybe people agree on but it's a subjective so one person's inconvenience maybe another person's nightmare Maybe let's say a person has a cold this is a nightmare I'm I'm not doing with all so well that's just a little inconvenience the other person this is a catastrophe you know I can't work I can't do this [Music]

oh you see the moment we deploy words like the moment we deploy words we are agents of power we select words maybe subconsciously but we embed power structures by the use of words so when I say so imagine I didn't say that now like imagine the malachia were writing the same thing so they so let's say the hanifi was writing this and they said well wudu cannot be substituted by team mum because of simple inconveniences

now let's say the ma I.E a cold let's say the malikis were right there we say well wudu can be substituted by tiamman due to hardships I.E occult [Laughter] power of the word see you embed a power structure the game is rigged you see because you you already Define the outcome so this is the issue with and you could do this genuinely you could do this you know

you could be mockless but you are embedding power elements in the equation the moment you speak the moment you said something so when people become a the so the strength of having an Orthodoxy was people were saying well we've got structure now first we had this amorphosity you know we don't know what um what did they believe I don't know you know what did uh they what did the taba ain't exactly believe about certain things we just don't know they never spoke about it okay that's all nebulous and you know it's it's kind of

free-floating let's have some structure so we can tell our children exactly and don't just say be part of the main body we could tell them exactly so this is the the plus side you know what why people went for it um that we can be clear we can have Clarity it's not just a free-floating it's a solid foundation now okay and and it is let's be honest you know it's much more clearer than trying to say well just believe but then the problem you see well okay what is it that they believe because remember this list

hasn't been taught to you by Allah and his messenger it's been taught by men righteous men you know inshallah but the thing is they're still men and they still spoke with a perspective that unquestionably was nested in an agency of control from where they stood so if they were an ashari they were writing from an ashari perspective if they were humbly they were right from a humbly perspective if they were if they were the clergy and they don't want you to question certain things they put that

in there because sure they may they may do it for a good reason because you know we just don't want people arguing with us it wastes our time we're doing it to save valuable Muslim time they may be very sincere but you see it becomes a power structure that's embedded now you see you you don't meet up to this list there's an Inquisition you see if you don't meet up Chuck them out

so it's really fascinating just as an anthropological analysis of where all of this originates in our history we have to kind of sift through it and filter through it and think wow okay where is I wonder where this came from where did this originate so in my research a lot of it originates around that Inc the Inquisition of the man of the Quran the creation of the Quran although I don't think people before that hadn't thought of it it I think it's very naive to assume that these Scholars who were writing thousands and thousands of fatwa didn't

think of let's have a Creed I mean that's like Common Sense 101 so why didn't they do it though see that's the question that's the million dollar question why did they not do it there could be a PhD on that they could be PhD on all of these things that I've said on the on the the birth of um you know Orthodoxy or whether it's going to be the definitions of Orthodoxy and how that's played out in Islam or whether it's going to be the first 200 years of Islam why there was no um um crystalline Orthodoxy and

you know why why not because they must have had their reasons and I'm not saying and their reasons could have been ironically a lack of power to do it you see so wow wow fascinating