Discussion on Miracles: A fallacy against God | Mufti Abu Layth

um my question was regarding i have listened to some of your talks in regards to the resurrection of jesus peace be upon him and your stand as a maliki and um i have also listened to you know your critics and um it seems like a majority of scholars you know from different methods they disagree with you and your interpretation of things so when you make these interpretations yourself or these uh beliefs yourself what are you how are you basing it differently than all the other mud hubs even the molecules you know what are you using as

a source you see that that's a very uh good question i mean people have asked me sometimes in fact somebody i don't know whether it was today you sorry whether it was yesterday or the day before i sometimes i lose the sense of time but uh somebody very recently was asking me as well that look uh about uh an issue to do with jesus and my belief on jesus actually that wasn't to do with the resurrection that was more to do with whether he had a biological father and the issue that the question that they asked me as well was that mufti you know where are you getting

this from is this i understand you know you're doing this but what what what are your motivations behind saying this and doing this are you just trying to be different from the christians or are you trying to is that is that the purpose and i think that's what the person assumed because he was saying you know and uh but isn't this causing greater harm you know you're trying to and but i mean in a similar way to your question uh by the way sorry like within what what do we call you abdul malik malik number one

the famous caliph but still right so right so i've done malik but this question that look where am i getting first first of all where am i getting my kind of beliefs from secondly why why am i going out with these kind of beliefs that it's a kind of like a slight follow-up so i'm getting my beliefs from the quran but in light of the voice of reason so i do i believe that look allah calls

us to faith based on reason so it doesn't make sense that he would call us to believe based on reason and then tell us to believe in something which goes against reason this is one part of the of the belief uh of what um what powers certain perspectives that i then take it is the voice of reason um secondly i do you know analyzing certain things i look at it and i do think like holistically

does this make sense i mean one is from a reason perspective but one is does it make sense comprehensively like within itself so the jesus thing is a is a good example because one is the from the reason perspective you know can a human being just be living up there in the cosmos just on his own he's just floating in mid cosmos somewhere this obviously is from a reason perspective that's not a belief that reason would generally accept okay but i'm sorry to cut you but if you start

using our reason then we could reason and question everything we could reason even uh the encounter of jibrael with prophet muhammad right so they say that one of the first persons who used reason was iblis because he was asked to prostrate in front of adam and he used reason by saying that no i'm made of fire he's made of dirt why should i so isn't part of is it wasn't part of belief also that it's fate that's something we don't have to understand everything that we expected that's a very good question uh abdul malik first and firstly the police iblis was

never problematized for reason this is a misrepresentation it was arrogance and it was stubbornness but it was it was not reason was not the problem the problem was his arrogance and his stubbornness it was not the story in the quran is not he's being condemned because he used his reason the point was how he was arrogant and his this is the kind of story that is is drawn the illustration in the quran that he shows himself as being very you know haughty and very kind of like proud and refuses

now he justifies it through some reason of his but that doesn't mean that because he justified it justifications are wrong justifications are normal things in everyday life they're not bad in and of themselves and reason is spectacular it's never a bad thing but the other things were the other qualities but coming to this thing um reason it doesn't in my understanding reason never problematizes faith in my understanding now when you said about jibrael or you could question other things that is true i have no

problem with people uh you know presenting questions to things in saying well how do you understand the story of jibril ali now i've said before when i've been asked about things like angels and stuff like this i've said that what you what is being mentioned in the quran you see a huge part of it what's filling in the blanks is your imagination the quran is it is laying out some dots but then human beings are filling in so when they think angels they think these things they think of you know these things made out of let's say

particular light that float around like a spirit you know they've got a wings and they do this and they they look like humans except they float and but this the quran never really ever said anything like this but we what we do is we just use our imagination and i'm not saying using our imagination is a bad thing it's fine but the problem is when we take that figment and then concretize it and assume anything else is wrong that becomes the problem now coming back to the main question that you see when we see the belief of jesus

one was the reason aspect but not just the reason the reason okay the fact that somebody lived for like i said in the cosmos this from a natural perspective is absurd but put that aside because even if we do not believe that let's say we don't believe that that's not how it's happening fine let's look at it from a comprehensive perspective a coherence perspective everything has to come together uh in a holistic way to make sense and that question is this when we believe in something should there be a reason why we believe in it so there's some

things which for example are unseen to us like there's going to be an afterlife okay okay fair enough we also as a human as human beings tend to have a yearning which makes us feel that we will live forever anyway now this concept is not necessarily uh absurd it's just not provable and that's fine but we accept that let's say a person accepts it now the question here is okay is there a reason fine but we don't as human beings when we're talking about things that do not involve us in this world

we don't need so much much of an explanation because they become things of the absolute unseen now when we're going to talk about this world things of this world and somebody presents a belief should that not have a an objective behind like if i said to you that look by the way a prophet is going to come back so you i feel have the full right to ask okay why there's there's nothing wrong in us in fact i would feel it's right to ask

that okay what is the purpose what is the mission if god is going to do something so spectacular that then there must be an objective behind it now when you start asking these questions about things like let's say jesus what happens is everything falls to pieces and this is where the problem arises so my thing my belief on jesus as an example yes it did have the the reason based angle to it but what really collapsed that belief that let's say jesus will come back

is the fact the incoherence of the matter it is so contradictory like within itself like when people say so for example why is he coming back they it's it's absurd like what they will say that what the answers they give give rise to hundreds of other questions based on that then um the miraculous birth of jesus peace be upon him so then uh you would question that too it's like why why would i question it because you will be using your reasoning say in order to have a baby you know biologically physiologically you need to have the sperm you need to

have the egg you need to have the ovulation and the whole process and i i do believe and this was i've said i have a whole video on this called the virgin birth yeah i saw that and and uh you're saying how it doesn't say that mary was speaking at the moment that she wasn't uh having a husband right but then uh so if you believe in allah and his uh you know so mary by the way unlimited powers and you know if he makes he creates something he has the power to go against the creation he's not limited by he's not limited by the forces of you know

that nature thing in that case you know the prophet that was inside a whale so physiologically biologically explained to me how could he have survived so these are the things that i'm saying that our mind is limited our sight is limited how we think of things are limited there are certain things that we just you know as part of our fate so there's no need to question it or find reason for us to understand it and those traps and i think it's profound because once you start questioning one thing then you're going to start questioning something else sure now you see this is now okay i'm going to answer those questions actually i want to answer them

right but just before i do i want to make clear that you see i'm not saying to people just so we are clear and this is for the poorest more so i'm not saying you necessarily having this impression i'm not saying to the viewers that they need to uh be like me and think like me and question things and be have like a critical cap on when they looking at faith matters or i'm not saying that at all and i'm not saying to people that they should reject these beliefs what i'm saying is that look to some people they will be like you're saying that

they if they started to question things it will come crashing down on them they can't handle critiques they can't handle um you know questioning because it will then it's either faith or its reason but there are people who to them faith does stand the test of reason and i would very you know with an honest heart say that i believe if i'm one of these people to me i have put my reason to every single conceivable matter that i could

within this dean and to me it stood the test now yes my interpretations may then vary from other people so what does that like like maybe you know it doesn't it's not the same kind of uh it does like i don't believe in the hocus pocus kind of stuff or not i know hocus pocus sounds denigrating but let's say i don't believe in the woohoo kind of stuff anyway but putting that aside nothing collapsed nothing not even these stories in the quran not even the belief on let's say the afterlife or the belief in god or the belief in messengers or in revelation

nothing collapsed now coming to this actual question um about first just and then i'll come back but about i'm pretty sure i mean i i i'd like to say there's a consensus but i i don't know if people disagree but generally it is a widely held belief that maryam was married to joseph there is no generally people don't dispute that generally speaking as far as i'm aware now that they all accept even the christians except she was married at that time to joseph

the question is they say that this birth was a virgin birth so they're not saying that she never she wasn't betrothed to joseph they're saying that what it is is that no but there was no natural um you know intervention here this was an unnatural super sorry not unnatural supernatural uh procreation that god just created in this case the y chromosome you know within her and it just happened there it was it was like that now and then that comes back to your question that why can't god do it

he's god after all you know he can do anything but then you see i would say that that attitude of saying god can do anything actually goes against the verses of the quran it's not that god can but that he won't because that look i've set things and i'm not going to change them like they will be as they are when allah says things like look why don't you you want to see god's signs you know the signs of god look into the horizon look into this look that can only work if nature is static in its

if tomorrow the rules of nature are changing then there's no point observing nature because you know it's going to change every leap year for example now then the biggest the i've said that the biggest is in suratul i believe the verse allah says himself that look they say that allah has taken a son you know and allah says but how can this be when he does not have a female partner

how can he have a child he doesn't have a partner now this allah is affirming by that logic that you see to have that child you would need to because if allah is just saying look how can i have a baby when i don't have a female partner but i can really just do anything i want anyway right then that that goes against allah's own argument against him because but allah is saying look in this world are human beings not all born of two so where is my female partner

and he did not have a female companion how can he have a wallet but if we hold here the belief that well actually you can because in this example you did it so it defies that is an argument of god against god so to hold think to make it coherent to me that makes sense that hmm you know i i'd be in line with those scholars that say well no you know that jesus was of natural birth so in that verse you're saying god is questioning himself no so in this verse allah is refuting

the christians so he is saying that and he's he's telling he obviously the verse is being revealed to as revelation 2 to the audience and it's saying that they say that you know he has has a child that he's taken a child and allah says that he's he's condemning them saying how could god have taken oh how could god have a child when he does not have walam he does not have a female consort a female companion now that verse

shows that actually allah is enforcing this law of nature that for humans there must be a male and female they must be a modern father could it also be to show that you know uh that humans are limited but you know allah is not could it also mean that because as humans we say that in order to create we need to have a male and a female but for god for allah it doesn't could it also we interpret that way yeah but then that would be an argument against god himself how so because he's saying to them how could he have a child

how can like let's so god is saying how can i have a child when i haven't got a female and we're not a couple so now if you say well the answer is because you don't need to be a couple because you can just have one anyway so that i've just kind of cursed myself these are the questions that the christians or other people were asking right no not questions so the christians are clearly claiming that mary you know jesus is the divine son of god so allah is refuting this belief in this verse of the quran

uh and this is a madina verse now allah is saying that how can he have a child and he's not a couple he doesn't have he's not a couple so if we hold now pause that if we hold the belief well to have a human child you don't need to be a couple then that refutes god's verse here because this verse only stands if all human babies are born of two

i don't know if that makes sense now i get the fact that most people not all they have been by the way they've been many ulama that have this view that i'm saying there have been many that have held this belief but the majority don't so the majority would believe that look jesus was born of a virgin birth now why do they believe this that and you see now that we where i would look into the kind of the the causative elements that what led to that belief now what simply led to it is the mass

proliferation of the christian myth that this had happened because the christians had this myth that was everywhere because the christian empires the byzantines in the north you had the southern arabian kingdom and the oximite kingdoms in the south that the christians had enveloped the whole you know you just had hijaz in the middle really which is just you know wasn't really christian but otherwise christians were everywhere so this belief made people and then the quran okay here comes an interesting question why didn't the quran just clearly condemn this why didn't he say that

because you know god could have just made it very clear correctly yeah i i think that's part of faith you know there are certain things that is there that is for you to think and for you to have faith certain things and in that case how was adam alaihissalam created he wasn't created from another mother or or you know on our biological something he was created from nothing right so yeah no we will come to that but why why would we think adam was created from nothing

because allah created everything i had nothing oh right but everything is not created out of nothing everything is you mean like in its origin sense it was a point where there was like like let's say some explosion and then energy turned into mata after the but we're not talking about like so on this earth now that matter is in existence on this earth things don't just come into existence from nowhere correct so then uh how was atom malaysia created based on what you're saying i've said that look there's nothing evolution does not clash with islam at all

that the fact that if adam was created of womb this is not in fact this is in light with several verses of the quran and i go through this and i explain um i've got a whole video on evolution in islam had a mother there was a womb involved would have been yes so so if we like if we look at the verse so for example right rather than let me just bring it right up here right so if we take a look at rather because if if i just say then people will just say

that you know mufti is saying these things but if i'm bringing it from the actual quran um right then here right right no okay here it is it's just coming up um okay is it this one

okay right okay now uh right sorry my bad it's not that one is the other one all right all right okay now let's take a look right so you have sort of okay now first uh 12 to 14 allah says

that we created in sun in san means now what's interesting is this kind of like murky uh extract and which by the way some people have said was dna but uh the point anyway let's go with the very uber uh you know literally kind of like texturalist meaning of saying no this was from mud so it's adam alaihi salam was created from you know here's some mud some clay some clay and he's shaped up and he's created yeah this is uh you'd agree with me it's a very kind

of a traditional kind of view judeo-christian held and many muslims have held that view as well the verse then says we created in sun from this clay of uh from this you know portion of clay and and the mufasirin will say insane here is adam okay then he says

we placed him who's the hymn going back to in we made him a drop of sperm in a settled place settled kind of like uh settlement okay stable settlement now which is the room

then we gave the bones you know meat and so on now it's interesting here as well then we created it into something different and they say that uh that okay what what's going on here because when allah says he created insane they say that's adam and then he doesn't say insan again he says who because

the mere the pronoun goes back to that in sun it says and then we place that in sun as a drop of sperm in a womb so here the mufasirin then split because when the verse begins they all agree this is adam they then split and say well oh wait a minute who's this now because if this is still adam then adam is a drop of sperm in a womb so here some said potentialization is fertilization right the blasphemy fertilization exactly so this is fertilization but but it's talking about adam being fertilized does it say adam because it says

insane but they say it says we began we created in san and then we made the insane fertilized so the question is is this insane here they disagree then the mufasirin some of them said you know this who even though it's going back to that same the pronouns going back to that same incen but we're gonna take from here that allah has changed the topic and he's talking now about humans generally he's not talking about the human adam anymore some of us serene said that now that is actually departing from the literal

reading of the quran which is saying who the other mufasirin went with okay maybe allah created adam in a kind of artificial womb in these little stages like it was clay but then he made it kind of fertilize and there was this artificial womb and there was now here the question is this why would you need artificial wounds when there are wounds in existence we know as a fact that you know homo sapiens were in existence adam is not going to be other in my understanding would be the father of the

human cognitive revolution the one to have consciousness so you believe sorry to cut you so you believe that you know uh is a descendant from early homo sapiens and then homo sapiens you know they were unicellular in the beginning allah created everything as unicellular and then when you're saying unicellular meaning from uh from one cell everything was like living things you're going back to the eukaryotes and right yeah but i mean as in you're going back like uh what what if you're the beginning of life yes of course of course and look and this is exactly my point

allah says you know every living thing alive today was created from a single source it was from you know from this water this this source of life we created kulashi every single form of life came from this common this this initial source of life but that also means that even nowadays you know nasa when we're looking for life we're looking for water because if there's a source of water we know that there could be you know bacteria or life so it doesn't

wouldn't that mean that the importance of in order to have life you need to have water that doesn't necessarily mean that everything started as as a unicellular and through millions of years it evolved and it became you know uh uh a moving amiibo or something like that and then it evolved into something else you see the question is what is i look i'm not saying i'm asking what is wrong with that belief like let's say the fact that life has a common ancestor life altogether it begins with this you know the last common uh denomination between the

source of all life this this pond or whatever it is the quran also mentions that you know every single living thing came from this source of water now i'm saying what's wrong with that with that belief why is that belief problematic that all living things are created are from one source the problem with that would be the limitation of allah azzawajal saying in order for allah to do what he's doing he has to abide by his creation this universe how we see things now how things make logically sense to us

now uh that's how it seems like what what you're saying like rules yes is that what we're saying yes but then does allah so you're saying allah himself has to abide by the rules is that what you're saying you're saying that you know what it means is that allah cannot do something outside the rules of this world this creation this universe why is this is saying okay let me reframe that could that not equally be that allah has set rules which he does things by

you see because you're saying it as though the rules are being forced onto god what i'm saying it as though god has with creation so when you see when creation let's say if we're going not with the multiverse theory with the general so just pre b big bang as this this existence comes into creation this energy from energy the moment it comes into existence uh you know within a a fraction of a you know of a fraction of a second you will have several laws are being set into motion of physics um and you will and then from

energy comes mata matter is created from energy now and and these laws are created by god he's created these laws of things like whether you're going to have the law of elector you know of electromagnetism of these forces of these different things it's not that god is stuck with them he has rather created them uh so he's created them obviously by choice have to abide by those laws yeah but but if he wants to what's the problem for example like i don't believe there's a certain there's a thing as a chance you know the probability uh i was listening to farah zahabi and he gave a perfect example

of when you're you know tossing a coin in the air you know it's 50 head or 50 tails but if as humans we had the capability ability to account for all the forces acting on the coin then we could make the coin land 100 times heads 100 times tails but since we don't have we have limitation we call it chance but there is no such thing as chance that's our limitation yeah i'm i'm not arguing with the laws of chance here uh i'm saying that look this what we're discussing here is that the world the cosmos has laws

rules has rules within forces not beyond humans i would say that you know light and these things have they have kind of certain laws we interpret them as laws obviously to them yes has to abide by a rule or a law sure allah azzawajal is not made of material no he's not and we're not saying allah has to allah is not for example being held down by gravity he's not being he's not doing what we're saying here is the fact that he's made rules somehow that you're saying the fact that he's made rules that's a problem is that what you're saying oh the fact i see is that for me i just believe

i don't have to have uh the idea that you know the only way it's going to make sense is for it to be through evolution that the fact that he's powerful that he could make everything out of nothing so let's let me get this let me get this right the fact that a lot of subhanallah so powerful it could be that islam is just wrong and he's just said it's right but it will just be wrong afterwards he'll change his mind no because he said it's not wrong that's different though yes no but why what let's let's get this right then why is that why would that be different that if you're saying god can make a rule and he can change it he which i believe

he can change but you're saying if he doesn't change it somehow shows he's incapacitated because he hasn't changed the rule because otherwise he's he's stuck so god says if you believe if you believe in my messengers and if you do righteous actions you'll go to heaven now is that a rule that not necessarily because uh prophet muhammad peace be upon him he was asking for forgiveness you know 67 70 times a day and sahabah said why i don't yeah i don't mean from the grace perspective i mean is that a rule though of thumb are we saying that so for muslims like they they will

if you embrace the message it goes to salvation is that a rule i don't mean obviously everything is up to the grace of god so by god having this rule has he placed limitations on himself to say that uh to say that god that only way because you're saying that no because you're saying that god by placing rules and just following them has limited himself but then you're saying to accept islam as the way of the truth and to attain salvation is a rule that god has made to attain salvation then thereby unless god breaks this rule

he has limited himself no no no that's not what i'm saying what i'm saying but that follows that naturally follows does it not no i don't believe it does what i'm saying is that uh god does not have to follow the idea in order to create you need to have a man and a woman you need to have you have to fertilize it in a womb and from that uh he has to create a human being because that's that's the nature of this world god doesn't have to do that right okay but does he do that though no i don't believe that no okay so

i created you all from men and women am i saying this allah is saying this is he speaking but is he speaking to adam alaihissalam or is he speaking to humans so okay so let me get this right so let me get this right what is the problem if adam was created from a uh by that same rule of nature what is it does he is there a problem in islam with that so then that means there was a mom that means that okay so let's let's say let's say there is a mom and a dad how is this problematic to the concept of islam then who was uh uh adam al-assam's mom and dad

so whoever let's say who was moses or who was the mum and dad of no ali salaam i don't know does that impact the story of noah okay so let's go to the story of adam let's say he does have a mom and dad let's say he does but they don't have the same level of consciousness as adam did because he has he's the father of the cognitive revolution right within homo sapiens so let's say now how does this make a difference like how does the how is adam no longer capable of being a prophet

see here's the thing if we believe in the idea of homo sapiens that we evolved you know that we are 98 like chimpanzees our dna therefore you know we think we involved from the similar uh you know start line then why do we still have chimpanzees if it was the nature or the evolution that caused us to evolve then why do we still have chimpanzees why don't they all turn into humans yeah but that's not how evolution works it doesn't work as in you see first of all human beings homo sapiens all uh not even homo sapiens right homonyms right are not from chimpanzees

okay nobody has said homo the hominins are from chimpanzees so chimpanzees are panning you've got guerillin you've got homonym these all descend from a common ancestor we do not have 99 dna most likely 97. 97.3 or something like this dna now nobody is saying that chimpanzees became human beings that's why they're not becoming human beings because that nobody has ever made that claim

so and then uh so what you're saying earlier that through evolutions everything started from one thing and over time millions of years it evolves that's exactly what it means doesn't it sorry what what does that mean you were saying that you know you're giving an example of how everything started as us from water from one little thing i'm not saying that quran the quran is saying that but yes i'm also saying that and scientists are also saying that but the quran is also saying that but what is the problem with that the problem is that uh if that's the belief that every living thing started from unicellular

from one thing and it was to evolution that evolved to different animals and you know different species then that that goes with the the the same idea that adam was an evolution from an earlier creation yeah we've already said he was but i mean what's why is this a problem in islam if he was let's say he was what okay let's just for a moment hypothetically except he was what how does everything fall in islam because of that belief how does that change anything in islam it doesn't change islam in any way so what what's the problem then

the problem uh so then the problem is that it's that doesn't mean that that's a reality let me get this right if we're going to say that look okay today by the way evolution today is it's not i don't know how how much you are well read in evolution so it's not just based on how charles darwin wrote today evolution is proven through genetics okay through through the dna code we can see mathematically where things are related you can see it in the actual patterns it's not like you know when they span out like the human genome project and they've got

other genetic structures you can see where they are related they will then for example when we do experiments when scientists will do things like grow a human let's say a human ear on a particular rodent it will only work because the genetic structure they understand the genetic structure to do that otherwise these things couldn't be successful they demonstrate that what the theories they're saying hold weight that the genetics do tie up it's not just a so it's not like oh you know human beings look a bit like monkeys therefore they must be related it's based forget about the the phenotype

it's the ch it's the genotypes the genetics that that they're actually looking at okay just to be clear because sometimes people forget that they think oh we're talking about when darwin you know didn't have genetics and he didn't have dna right so okay what we know is science today not just science dna shows you that things are related okay we accept that it shows you that things have been like this is related to mammals which are related to this and you can see and from that you can gather a story we have in the quran allah is also affirming this

we have in our observable world every like i'm sure you don't know a single person who was ever born without you know both a mother and father i'm sure you wouldn't know a single person like that in in reality you would never know that that that's i can state that as a fact right and i'm sure you know that as a fact that every single human being on earth that has ever lived that you know or that you know anybody who knows has also followed that law of nature it's not like this is not something which oh wow you know every third person is born without a dad right so now there is a reason that you are struggling to accept this

there's a reason you're struggling because it's not your reality confirms it mathematics confirms it genetics confirms it science confirms it the quran confirms it as well but you're you're struggling with it now the question is this you have to introspect why are you struggling because when i asked you that look if adam was born of parents how does this how does islam fall apart like how does this ruin the message of islam and you said well it doesn't which is true it doesn't it doesn't like if i asked you what was the name of no islam's mom and dad you wouldn't know i wouldn't know what

what what the problem is is saying that allah has to go abide by the rules that he has created he doesn't have to but when you say about faith he has to abide by those rules then what do you mean by that because when when you speak about faith that allah says he created a hell a heaven and after life if you do this if you believe in him you'll go to heaven but obviously with his grace but you do does he have to abide by those rules then or did there doesn't have to be an afterlife he could just change his mind because if he follows rules he's restricted no but but that's different why is that different because you're

saying god creates rules and to stick by them if he sticks by them a hundred percent then he's somehow restricted now we would say well first of all he's the one who created them it's not that he's being forced to stick by them he says this is my son now you're never going to see it change he tells you that these are his rules but you're saying but somehow there's a problem if he sticks to his rules so then in that case why does he have to stick to the other rules about the akhira and the things like this uh well the laws of

nature versus what allah says and has said and why he has to abide by it are two different things no because now to say something to speak is still a a phenomenon within reality within nature is it not so you're saying that speech must be coherent with reality like when i speak i must speak the truth why that's also an observation of nature is it not like you observe truth within react within nature you don't observe it outside of nature so if you're saying when allah speaks in the quran he sets rules those rules he has to follow when he sets rules in nature

those he if he follows them then he's being too constricted and he doesn't need to and we can't constrict god so i i'm struggling to accept that but i'm not struggling to accept this the rules of death after life is different that is different has been said in fact let me get this right the berzerk you've never even seen it it's been mentioned all right yeah but you've never seen it but these laws but these laws of nature you have felt every single day yeah you've actually they're as real to you as you are but yet you say that for st you know to have these rules and to always stick by them is a restriction

and things which yet have no actual existence for you as apart from just what you've heard and read they don't actually they don't have a tangible reality for you well reality in terms of what memory because i mean no not memory tangible reality a tangible reality when we were in our mother's womb we didn't know we existed when we were up to three we didn't know we existed but you do now i do know it's different exactly so did i not exist because i don't remember right no i'm not saying that but what i'm saying to you is that it's interesting that you i don't have a problem with saying that when allah creates rules he sticks by them

but this seems to you feel that that's a problem for allah to stick by his own rules because you're saying allah create who created the laws of nature of course so so for him to stick by them it seems to be a problem to you no it doesn't why what i'm saying is he's not uh bound by them yeah but he's not bound to to make an akira for you

so so this so there's a likelihood there may not be an akira then no he isn't so he's bound he's not bound uh no exactly so what you're saying is god sets out sunnah and he says you won't they won't change your question is kind of a thing can god create a rock that's so heavy that he cannot pick up no they're not they're not it's nothing like that they're nothing like that i've actually asked them if if you know if you say no it also limits no because i've asked you a very reasonable question i've said to you that look who created

the laws of nature and he said well god did so i said well what's the problem if god keeps the laws of nature he said no no but that's if he sticks to his rules then he's restricted so i said well who created the rules that there's going to be an afterlife he said well god well by that logic if he sticks to this he's also restructured after life is doesn't abide by the rules of this this this world but it abides by some rules yeah but it's not from does it abide by the rule of existence what do you mean by that that's a rule like the the fact that it has to tangibly exist uh well uh i believe uh you know i'm a very limited uh uh school

is but so what i'm trying to control the soul is immaterial so our body in this world is primary our soul is secondary when we die our soul becomes primary our bodies material that's not right i'm not talking about the soul right i'm saying that same thing the issue is this you are struggling to accept something now you need to introspect what is the problem because it's not islam it's something else that's the problem that you are refusing because the quran is actually saying that and the laws of

nature around you are saying that what what is bothering you to believe that allah created adam and eve out of nothing they would they don't have wombs they didn't have mothers or fathers they were created just the way that allah tell you what's stopping me i'll tell you what's stopping me reason i'll tell you no surat minoon i've read the verse to you verses 12 to 14.

but that's talking about humans not uh who is he talking about human beings do you know any humans that were just created out of thin out of nothing you mean no the verse begins with wallach is the who is this talking about who is it talking about i believe that's the uh the humans not adam alaihissalam do you know any humans that were mated made out of thin that were made out of clay so is allah

lying then is allah lying is that what he's doing what was it when he's talking about clay he's talking about uh uh adam salaam then we made him this hymn is a different hymn well islam was created different than how we are created no this is the same this is the same surah is the next verse then we made him a a drop of sperm what is allah just saying this he doesn't know what he's saying he's lost his train of thought i mean what what's going on here what's allah is saying that this is how insane was created and he was created as a drop of sperm then

why does it uh why did they specifically say adam why did satan what's the difference because in quran there's a reason behind everything yes sure but do you know any insane that was made athene that was made out of clay do you know any incense that were made out of clay i don't know no but it doesn't mean it didn't so so do you assume there are human beings that i just made what i found was made out of clay out of the back they finished the verse but he was made a drop of sperm then

who is the who going back to he's going back to that same person that was made out of bean so and okay so if you want to get more precise the clay what does clay consist of what does clay consist of now i did not say i did not a lot does not say i created him out of clay means and i did say that this refers to dna i did say that now you can take a different interpretation that's fine many people that today understand dna would say that this is what it's most likely referring to what is dna made of phosphorus carbon and

isn't this something that's found in clay or in everywhere around us no so the thing is the thin resemblance that's being given is about something murky in its existence it's not if you're taking it as a literal explanation that when it's been mentioned it is literal then that's okay that's fine that's your understanding but you're still stuck because if he's being made out of mud and clay then how is he a drop of sperm in the as it follows so to take that entire verse literally you're stuck you know it's a very difficult thing most people don't take it absolutely literally

they don't tell me if allah can make adam just like this why make him out of clay well again that question goes by what is what is meant by clay no so why not just why not box is it no so why not make him out of thin air in a way everything is made of thin air if you think about it no it isn't it is i don't mean in the atomic kind of space between the molecular structures at a sub-atomic level i'm talking about when allah says that he created

adam that he mentions that you see he says that about kun fayakun but he says he first of all created him then said kun fayakum why why create him why not just say kung fu so the uh in this verse the creation is it talking about the soul or is it talking about the physical body no it seems to be talking about the physical body because this is where they are saying well what about jesus then they're trying to and and by the way

this was where i began i was going to explain why the quran did not immediately dis disbelief it didn't diss it it did not refuse not refuse but it did not it seems to circumvent dissing the christians now the question is is that because islam felt it was true so that's obviously what you're arguing you're arguing that when islam circumvents not openly refuting the virgin birth or not openly refuting that adam was created from you know when they asked what about jesus then says

mataluka adam you know jesus is like adam so you're assuming from this this is because they hold the truth the christians do this was simply so that the muslims and christians could build a bridge and they would have some it would grow in proximity to one another hence allah whenever speaking about jesus or speaking about the christian narrative uses certain terms like for example the holy spirit this term isn't really used for other prophets even when allah says that

jesus was the word of god the word of god what does that even mean the word of god these were christian words that the quran did employ it does use it to build bridges between the muslim communities and the christians because the christians were a make or break deal they were the byzantines they were the axomites they were surrounded around eastern arabia you if if if muslims were to make any attempt for islam to spread it was going to be through the christian arabs of the northern kingdoms so

it created bridges it says you people of scripture come to a middle ground between us meaning we will give up some things like we're being accommodating you be somewhat accommodating the thing that they weren't islam didn't accommodate on was the trinity but it kind of allowed them to entertain these other beliefs it didn't have a huge issue it said you know if you want to believe in the virgin birth we're not going to the quran did not affirm it but it gave them the space to infer it because it allowed that middle ground

now this was actually what i was going to answer when we when you began by saying well why did islam not clearly criticize them but look i get the fact that you know many people will struggle with these kind of things i feel that the reason they have you know like people say to me i need to introspect and i do and i do reflect and i do think well why do i believe this i think people need to introspect as well you know people that critique these like let's say the voice of reason and they need to think well what is it that's actually stopping them from accepting reason

like what is it that's actually stopping them and often it will just be culture sectarian or dogma that has already been set out and and and the often i'm not maybe not always but often it will just be that because they were brought up in a particular way upon certain dogma they just struggled to part ways from that but i mean i i do want to put in the disclaimer again that look i'm not telling people it would be ironic of me to tell people to believe what i believe because that would be dogma but the thing is

as a as a public speaker you know we have responsibility if i wear a white coat and i tell uh no no no no let me let me correct myself let me sorry let me just add the i am of course i'm inviting them to reflect and i would like them to believe what i believe of course but i'm not instructing them so there's a difference because that would just be dogmatic it would be counterproductive for me to replace dogma with dogma i'm trying to replace it with the with the the nur of kind of enlightenment of reason but do you believe do you also do you believe that we are limited with our reasoning do you believe humans have limitations

yeah we do we do we do so is it possible that some things that logically reason reasonably doesn't make any sense but that's because of our limitations do you believe in that or yeah but it's the yeah but hopeful that everything has to make sense to you no right so the laws of this dunya so just to be clear i everybody with any reason recognizes that reason two has its limitations but it is the best that we as human beings have

for in any uh inter-subjective dialogue we don't have anything beyond reason because it is the best thing to allow there to be any inter-subjective dialogue because without reason then when i ask you how do you know that that tree over there isn't god how do you know that well you're going to start giving me reasons or sorry a rationale based on reason you're going to start saying well uh but but then i could say well but your reason has limitations maybe that tree in my back garden is actually god but it's just done it in a way that's

outside the capacity of your reason correct i mean that's not saying so with the reason there are certain things that we take it as so do you not believe do you not believe that belief in god is not based on reason no it is but not every not so much no but so is so do you even your belief in god can you but argue a belief in god without reason i mean would you would that because then it's just a free-for-all isn't it like this can over here is god it is how do you know well just because you don't know it doesn't mean it's not god you see

it you can only argue that now based on reason so yes your reason to argue that this can is not god is still going to be your reason anybody's reason is reason is limited at some point but it's the best we've got no no i'm not i'm not saying that we shouldn't reason the existence of god i'm not saying what does it make so does it follow a god that invites you to believe in him based on reason based on reason then tells you to believe in things that go against reason

does that follow well our reasons is different on human rights now wait a minute so the god that invited i don't mean reasons but reason with a capital r that god that invites you to believe in him based on reason would then the moment you accept him start telling you to believe things that go against reason when that was the very tool he told you to use to believe that he's the truth no i i was under assumption that even in the quran there are verses that says that there are certain things that we're not we don't know and we're not supposed to know until the end of time

but they're not counter reason ever you're talking i'm not talking about the rabiat i'm not talking about things like is there going to be an afterlife like that now look it's not counter reason that there's going to be a continuity of life it's not counter reason we just don't have evidence for it okay fine that's not these things that the rabiat are not irrational beliefs right they just they just beliefs that we can't substantiate which is fine that's not that's not the issue the issue is would god who calls you to believe in him on reason the moment you accept him starts telling you to do things which are uh starts telling you to accept things which are now

from a rational perspective absurd so uh they don't make sense they're not they're irrational all of a sudden so i would say and i accept that you can accept that but to me i can't accept that because a god that calls you to believe in him on reason to me can that's like if an organization asks me to join them based on their uh you know championing human rights and the moment you join them they ask you to murder someone right now you you'll be like what the hell are these guys about this is pure hypocrisy double standards now to me that would stand true

if a god invited us to him based on reason the moment we accepted he told us oh you know that tool i told you to uh you know use to recognize me i want you to kind of like throw that away now and start believing weird stuff so this i think but this is not obviously we're not going to be able to get to the end of this here tonight yeah sure because we have gone on quite a bit but i think it's been very fruitful so i do really appreciate that you did come on and we discussed my last question uh i guess is the idea of color like if i have a gun and i go and i kill someone

yeah was that my free will or was that yes i i would i have said in my understanding of free will that free will is human beings do have free will and i kind of in uh have given an analogy or made it analogous to somewhat of a computer game so i've said if you have a video game then somebody has designed all possible outcomes now for you to be able to conduct any outcome it must have been designed however where you get in the game and what you do along the way

is entirely up to you as the player so but somebody must have designed it it is true so in somewhat of a poor approximation i give that example uh i do explain that look it is it is diff it's a very difficult in fact when discussing with the uh the uh professor of quantum physics uh doctor faisal mead uh we you he used the example i liked it very much giving the analogy of um what is the the heisenberg principle in quantum physics saying that look basically when we're speaking about human beings and speaking of free will it you cannot speak about destiny in that thing it's used up

the capacity like it can only like in a sentence you can either be talking about free will or you can be talking about destiny like predestination um when you use them both it it just doesn't our thinking just does not capacitate completely for that uh and in somewhat of a way i accept that so what what what does the law of nature say about that the law

according to you when it comes to free will how do you answer because you like to use reason and love so that is so based on reason i have given the example of the video game and that is a something based on reason i'm giving an example of how free will would work so you as the you would have agency but yes there has been design in where the character obviously wherever the character whether you got to stage four or level five or level 99 in the game is your doing but the game was designed all right yeah cool abdul malik i'll leave you with it it's been an absolute pleasure

take very good care of yourself no no not at all and i want to actually say before you go that this is actually a very i'm very glad that we had this discussion but it's also demonstrative of look people can disagree and we can still have a very civil conversation because sometimes people have said to me that oh you know that oh that they wouldn't you know i wouldn't engage people's discussions if they disagreed with me of course i would and and i'm really glad that you did ask that abdul malik so much love take very good care of yourself