On the David Wood and Muhammad Hijab Debate: Reflections & Review -Mufti Abu Layth

this debate people david wood versus muhammad hijab I don't know if you guys have watched this debate if you haven't watched it I I think you should watch it because it is in my understanding and monumental debate it will definitely go down as a as a key kind of debate that took place that's my understanding I don't know I do think it's definitely worth watching it is quite lengthy it is I think just under three hours now but you can watch him in parts I did go

through the whole thing it's very entertaining to watch now right David would do you guys know anything about him by the way you know anything about father say you tried to kill his father did he tries to kill his father his father tried to kill him this this despot to his startup at least here so okay shall we get one version that was

the neighbor I don't know it could be that because he he's definitely he's he's like one of these kind of event jelly kind of Christians who goes out he he does a lot of preaching but a lot of his that way if we can use the term that one is quite Islamophobic and it is very anti Islam so he does kind of take the mick out of Islam quite a bit I haven't actually watched too many of these things to be honest with you I think I've just maybe just a few clips

that's all I've seen but he he has had many debates with people like dr. Shapiro Ali he's debated other Muslims many Muslims they are on the debates are on YouTube and he has this kind of channel with a large number of followers to be fair so this debate was on though he'd versus the Trinity so what are my thoughts on me the debate I do I think those of you that haven't watched it it's very clear that Muhammad hijab won that debate hands down there's

no two ways about that and and I'd like to go through some of that points but then I want to discuss my thoughts on some of the the kind of what was being debated as well so the topic that they chose montt though he'd versus the Trinity to be fair one of them is reason based that is though he the oneness of God is is quite it's very much not quite it is very much in line with reason the Trinity by default is what the

Christians called and what they call irrational truths or logical truths truths that don't make sense so from the offset whenever you're debating something that way one side appeals to reason and the other doesn't the reason side will always make sense and prevail generally speaking as a rule of thumb because that is what appeals to people the voice of reason now so so I could say in some ways one could argue that you know Muhammad hijab would have had the upper hand from the word goal because the debate was already kind of

destined to win almost because the topic gives you the upper hand you could argue that but to be fair I actually was I was very impressed with Muhammad hijabs research you know to to be very clear on that he's obvious he must have spent an incredible amount of time researching the biblical sources researching and just developing a knowledge of the Bible I was much impressed I must say I didn't expect that really him to be coming out quoting the Bible time after time and on many occasions impromptu

like in the QA I mean one could say well okay for the dedicated speech maybe these things are rehearsed but for the spontaneous QA to be you know quoting verses of the Bible with references on all on each account is something very impressive it demonstrates an in-depth knowledge of the Bible the way others called the background of the Trinity I think that was very well researched by Muhammad hijab so it wasn't just the voice of having the voice of reason the fact that he was very well prepared

I've gotta say that I haven't watched much of David Wood before my what I've heard is he is usually quite well prepared this is what I've heard from people from people the comments and other things he didn't seem to be very well prepared for this debate so I don't know what that was those of you that have seen it he did come off a bit I don't know like he came off a bit shaky and things like this on certain accounts and he was saying things that embarrassing himself to be fair he did say a few things we just would you think why would Eve there was there was a point where he said he was asked a question and he said there's a lengthy

reply which which I don't actually think is correct and and people started laughing because that was in defense of Christianity he mentioned that so this these kind of things showed that well he didn't really seem to be so well prepared for this I I don't know whether he was prepared or not but he didn't appear to be that one thing the the other thing is that right but by the way I mean I'm taking I'm taking oath I mean I've asked a few of you have watched this anyway I'm because I'm taking I'm as a given that a lot of you have

watched the debate see the way it was debated it didn't the whole topic didn't really lean in on reason at all much I mean there was some points that Muhammad hijab did say given the fact that the whole thing could have been won by reason alone really because one makes sense and three is one make sense that said apart from a few points Muhammad hijab doesn't generally lean in on reason much he his point was that look this Creed was formulated by the Nicean council in whatever 325 or whenever they were and can you give me

any Christian sources that believed in the Trinity and he highlights some point some factors that are necessary he says that that that they coexist the Trinity are co-equal coexisting and independent kind of godheads so independent persons of this Godhead so he says that is the Creed of the Trinity and I want you to show me that for 300 years any Christian that believed it in that manner he says that people did believe in it but they believed in it differently like maybe there was a hierarchy or there were other kind of beliefs and some didn't believe in the

Trinity and but show me this Creed from your books prior to the Council of Nicaea that was the main thing and I think that was that was very well done very well researched by Muhammad a job and credit where credit is due even though on a lot of points to be fair outside of this debate I disagree on several topics with Muhammad hijab but I think the way he handled this from a knowledge perspective that's what I'm speaking about right now the way he handled this debate with the points being very clear on the factors that can you show this the Council of Nicaea kind of constructed this can he show a

similar creed from the early any of the early sources was precise it was to the point and doctor would just failed to answer that he does try to answer it in his own way he tries to say things like look what we don't need to say that because we believe they believe that Jesus was God and they believed that the Holy Spirit was God so why do we need to find these kind of keywords but he doesn't sufficiently answer it to be fair so I think that was very used quite tactile the way it was done was good dick right there was just this is

leaning in on some of the the pros that the the positive things that Muhammad hijab had really done well targeted may be concise quoted just Christian sources all the way and yeah so I think that was that was really good just trying to think of some points coming to right now he did mainly in several of the kind of comebacks that David Wood has Mohammed II job does answer them he not just many

right but he doesn't answer them all and this is some of the if we can flip the coin to some of the other like if we're gonna now look at David would let's just for a moment and reflect on him he doesn't generally carry himself off well in that whole debate that said he does pose some good questions a lot of his questions those of you that haven't watched he he seems to get stuck up on some linguistic questions which I think were which was just dumb if you're asking me because it was stupid because

he repeatedly kind of hinged on this question of you know in navaja like a Tony so Luna Allen abhi that Allah he does Salah he keeps saying Allah does Allah so who is he doing Salafi and to be fair Muhammad hijab kind of answers that very well and says that look this doesn't mean he's praying to it means he's kind of sending blessings upon I think that's how he I'm not sure if Muhammad hijab did translate it like that but that's how perhaps ish maybe that's a I think is a good way to just translate it the sending blessings upon

now this goes back and doctor would doesn't seem to leave this point alone he says no you know you suddenly is probably salon he brings it up time and time again so I think that was just I think it was quite dumb and pathetic on the part of dr. would agree to do that because you know we've somebody's answered the question you don't understand the Arabic language just take it for now and maybe you can research it further so that said I think dr.

would did present some some good kind of when I say good I mean some tough questions but I think luckily enough he articulated them so pathetically that it didn't actually he never managed to score a single punch with them I think that the gist of what he was trying to get at he had some very good questions and arguments that were kind of tough but because he was I don't know apparently he's been doing this for

decades so I don't know why he was so poor at kind of articulating it but he had certain questions that if I get if I've understood them correctly what he was trying to say was that you're mocking the Trinity or you're ridiculing the Trinity because it's incoherent it's incomprehensible this is the gist of I think what he was trying to say he was trying to say this is what I understood at a deeper level I could be I mean either on giving him too much intelligence here or but I think this is what he was actually trying to say is

that you yourself in Islam have many incomprehensible truths that you seem to be okay way so why are you struggling with this Marshall that's dr. would calling him to say yeah that's what I meant so what he was trying to say I think was that look if this is an appeal to reason if you're appealing to reason that three equals one is counter reason irrational and makes no sense then your debate on

the Quran being uncreated is to reason your debate on there being safe at of a law that exists alongside him and are not him is unreasonable and counter reason your debate like this he was there were several things that he points out to you but he articulates them so dumbly like in such a dumb way that luckily enough I don't think most people got what he was saying and therefore the whole argument just got pushed by the wayside but these genuinely were some tough questions that he presented in saying things like oh

you're saying for example he did say one which Muhammad hijab does respond to about the the shafa'ah intercession and he will how can the Koran intercede for you because if the Koran is God then how can God intercede before God that was his to which Muhammad hijab says well that's the actions as in your recitation of the Quran is as an action and the reward is interceding so I think but that one he kind of answers but so there was the

they were these points I do think the difficult one of the uncreated nosov the Quran Muhammad Egypt didn't answer but generally because they were presented so weakly Mohammed II job does manage to just kind of destroy him very easily because he's not presenting them very they're not so solid whereas if he was if because if that's what he was trying because that's what I understood from him that he was trying to say that look the Trinities counter reason but you guys yourselves accept so many things

that are counter reason hmm which would lead back to a point that I do stress on so many occasions that it is so important I feel especially in this day and age that Muslims we do believe in the Quran to be in line with the voice of reason otherwise these arguments don't actually stand you see because if somebody had articulated that a bit better it would have been very difficult to answer to because if you yourself are accepting you'd asked about miracles if you

yourself are accepting miracles which make no sense then the question would be that well 3 equaling 1 3 equating to 1 doesn't make sense either but who cares since we're in it you know since the making sense card has kind of gone out the window who cares anyway I saw it's an you know an all-or-nothing either everything must make sense or fine it's just arbitrary you know 10 percent doesn't make sense in 90 percent does or 20 percent dozen and 80 percent does it's arbitrary so I think these are some things worth thinking about he does present dr.

would say these things about like anthropomorphic kind of believes that some Muslims have had like they believed God was like he had body parts and stuff like this and and to be fair they have been Muslims that have believed like that but I understand that in the debate you see the whole purpose of a debate is to kind of win there's no two ways about it you know this all this this this whole thing that you know like Imam Shafi'i allegedly once said I debate somebody and I make duaa that may the truth be manifest on his tongue you know may may

he win well either I'm not sure if Imam Shafi he really said the hell if he did maybe in his day and age nowadays it's all drama titta sort it up right this it's all about winning so I understand that Muhammad hijab you know would and it's you know he would do what fair enough just because the main point is to win and you know so he did dismiss a lot of these things and saying that these there is no such thing Muslims have never said stuff like this but Muslims have said unfortunately not that we agree with

them I don't agree with those Muslims that say things like that as you know these kind of body parts or these kind of things and but they have been unfortunately Muslims that have said things like that so there was a bit of kind of there were some occasions where he was saying things dr. wood was putting objections in saying some Muslims have said this this and he Muhammad he jab did kind of just say no that's not true at all whereas in a few of those occasions it was actually true that but it's not may not be true of all people the other

thing is that Muslim creed you see I will achieve that as well like if you're gonna take the nice see enough either our up either - if we're gonna use formal Creed you see this is why I'm kind of never really in favor of these kind of RT the things I always make a distinction between our teeth and Iman the Creed and faith that the Prophet came to teach faith not to teach Creed because with Creed it's always institutionalized and even the Muslim Creed is like what at least 300 years old after the Profi it's not like you know at least two to three hundred years

after the Prophet it's not like something that was emerged at the time of the Prophet in fact surprisingly the Prophet taught very little things on how what Muslims must believe about God except the very basic like God is one and things like that but he didn't you know what today Muslims teach his Creed oh you must believe this and God has these attributes and these attributes are like this that is actually very I think irrational nonsensical not based in the Quran and Sunnah and he actually does lead to a contradiction because many Muslims today do push this creed that Allah has say fact he has

attributes the attributes are not him and they not other than him so what on earth is that there you know la Lisa what is it laughs whoa well a label that's the term they use in a lot of the theory books that they are not God and they are not other than God this is why even Irish the most philosopher said you guys must be drunk on something that's what on earth does this stuff even mean that you're pushing so Muslims do but the plus side is that and I think dr.

would highlighted this but it served as a strength that despite the efforts of Muslim clergy to push this stuff the common Muslims don't know about this stuff so despite the fact that the clergy have tried hard in getting everybody institutionalized into Creed but alhamdulillah the common Muslim doesn't really know this stuff and I've probably never even heard of it so when dr.

wood or these kind of people are saying these things it doesn't resonate with people so because they saw this thing and what on earth is he on about so once again it's easy to just dismiss and you know it was quite easy in or not easy but it was then Mohammed hijab would then just destroy his points because a lot of people wouldn't understand them anyway so that is a but there was some genuine kind of like tough challenges he did present I think like the that you guys yourself need to then either be consistent in appealing

to reason all the way or you don't and so I think that's a overall coming moving on to the way they conducted it I do think that it's unbeatable I mean it's actually very clear Muhammad hijab himself says that look I'm during this debate I'm not going to show any respect to dr. David Ward or whatever David would that's an interesting you see I don't I don't know I was in a bit of a dilemma about this because on one hand I could see that because he justifies he Muhammad he chapters and he says look

this guy has been a better watch my language now he's just mean it's just it's just been an idiot and he's been a bigot towards Muslims he's an Islamophobe he he has caused a lot of hatred against Muslims he's caused attacks on I mean I don't know but presumably that's true and if that be true you can understand on one hand where Muhammad hijab was coming from in the sense that he's thinking well you know you've kind of done us over for so long I'm gonna have a zero-tolerance attitude to you

but and so hence he has a very some Hamid hijab is very kind of aggressive he hasn't aggressive I mean you're not aggressive as in like but it is the demeanor is aggressive I mean you can't deny that it is aggressive like it's a lot of answer me tell me you know show me this today you can won't be you know it's a very kind of condescending and loud it's very loud I mean I'm sure part of that may be because Mohammed hijabs obviously used to generally with his debates like he does like in speaker's corner in Hyde Park whatever they do probably shout and stuff like that but

that may be part of it it may be part of the fact that he like he said look I mean gonna show you respect because you've always been putting us down so you know to hell with you but David Wood is kind of very reasonable from his behavior all the way through he doesn't kind of get rude generally speaking he does one too little kind of sneers and digs in between where he kind of tries to crack a few jokes about Islam but generally he's kind of he doesn't he doesn't get equally aggressive like he doesn't kind of say well you know I don't know if he usually does once again I haven't watched too

many of these things but in that debate so the question was that was the justification of Muhammad each herb on the other hand it did make Muslims look kind of like the usual you know like that you know you get that mean with the you know there's that guy who says 1920 and the guys like and then you've got like then it moves on and then it says like 1955 and then working on a TV and on this side you got that the maulavi kind of a going up and then it says like 2018 and now they've got all the technology and the movies still like you must have seen that mean it's quite

funny but it did on the other hand it did show that it did prove that see that Muslims are like they're very easy they just aggressive they're just disrespectful they kind of shout they they like to kind of stamp the authority they it did give that but I don't you see I'm when I watched he I watched the whole thing and I thought about it and I was in a bit of a dilemma because I was thinking well I think Mohammed hijab on that one was in a situation damned if you do damned if you don't because I think the fact that he did he did it to teach him a lesson

because unquestionably he destroys and David would and with that attitude it just amplifies it because you'll constantly kind of shouting down and saying well go on then answer this answer this don't you do you know like you know like shut up don't bring I'm not sure if he says shut up I said don't bring me you know ask me don't tell me you know constantly now that magnifies your impact so on one hand you really he's put in his place and undoubtedly he was so I can imagine he must have felt like terrible that

might have added to why he was kind of shaky so I could see that on the other hand you see that in a lot of the comments online on a lot of the things on YouTube when I saw it oh most almost all of the non-muslims use that point to kind of then detract from the whinny to say well you know typical you know shouting Muslims you know just nothing better to do just stamp the authority you know be disrespectful be rude why not kind of show it back you know if he's being rude why not kind of turn the other cheek and kill him with kindness so to speak

well doctor I mean I see it's it's a tricky one because I watched it and I have to say on some parts he is very kind of like and then I suppose he's obviously he's a very big person as well I mean so it must be almost by 7 foot or something right so you can imagine obviously in his present so he's just sitting not so far away from him and then he shouting and you must have that impact so I can see that this on the other hand I can see him saying that look you've been taking the mick out of Muslims for so long today I'm going to teach you a lesson that I'm gonna you

know put the nails on the coffin that next time you see in front of Muslims I don't know how he should have behaved on that but I do think that from the overall view it was used as ammunition clearly so I could see that point but because he went all the way through it made Muslims it did give that thing and then the other thing was in the crowd Muslims you know they started the whole takbir you know luckily nobody went this is the Muslim side that's a joke but I

think that that didn't help really because it showed this whole thing of like kind of just you know Muslims kind of being rowdy and stuff like that so that was some of my thoughts about the o'clock characteristics but I definitely do feel that this is in many ways a monumental kind of discussion I do think if you have a watch do some when you get time do watch it it will definitely go down I think that David Wood will forever be embarrassed now what was funny was in the YouTube comments I read their YouTube comments so many of them not the whole thing that so many but what was shocking is that the the kind of supporters of David Wood were still

trying to act like that he'd won they were like oh I mean some of them were just saying about oh you know he said that he job should have behaved better and stuff like this but many of them were like all excellent you know you did amazing you did this he did and then like so many comments down you one comment saying what horrible discipline what is acting like he won I think that was funny to read but but yeah but overall so if if any of the people watching this as well including Muhammad hijab and others I think that

it was definitely there was an excellent performance of knowledge that I have to say from the biblical side of things so and that is it's something really inspiring and also a lesson that you know if you are going to debate something or discuss they should have thorough knowledge I don't know whether read somewhere Mohamed hijab even studied Hebrew for he I don't if that be the case wow I'm impressed but so that is something that was well done his own day and age I'm Adi that was the whole oh you know that shouting and the whole

day it kind of pushed a straight back into into that era so I think we do need to up our a flop game definitely and I think also one thing I would say is that we need to kind of what we can learn from this debate is if we're going to be objective and true to ourselves is that have what we can't do is have irrational beliefs ourselves and then condemn other people for irrational beliefs like we must be consistent that's one thing that I would like to definitely take away from that and I would encourage people

to take that away that we need to revisit some understandings we have because if we're saying things like look you know this was done and laws of nature don't matter and this don't matter and none of these things matter then three equals one doesn't matter because what's to say that God can't make himself be three manifestations apart from reason and if you throw a reason out the window then nothing matters it's like what's to say well you could say well three does an equal 1 according to mathematics it's a year but but maybe God made an exception using his all power

all-powerful power so that it becomes an absurd argument I accept that but it's absurd because you're not sticking to the voice of reason so if we're gonna stick to the voice of reason we have to follow through in Islam there's no point having it at that level and then we start saying things like you know like somebody had sent me this these clips of let's drink camel urine or let's do this or you know or miracles happen in certain ways and you know there is no laws of nature or when God doesn't want them and stuff like this that to me is a confusing message so that's all I would

like to say on that debating shelves lot so I hope that but well done definitely for for having the debate I think Muhammad Li dev I think that was well done