Why converting the Hagia Sophia to a mosque is a mistake | Mufti Abu Layth

right okay let's go to the hagia sofia topic a lot of people are awaiting this so people those of you that are unfamiliar with what's going on erdogan and the turkish uh courts have ruled that the hagia sofia or known as the aya sophia i i i like the sound of that it has a better kind of more flow to it the eye sofia it

is to be converted back into a masjid what do we think about this how do we feel and people have become really and it has already happened they've done the azan and there's all these videos on twitter on social media sites there's reactions people are um amongst them is our danny boy saying some of these fools full hey foo reverting hagia sofia back to a masjid meanwhile hindu temples and churches

being built in muslim countries [Music] that he's giving his two pence as well so he doesn't want us to [Laughter] right so this uh and there were some other if i one moment if i check i'm pretty sure there was some other right yep okay cool now what are our thoughts on these people

well first of all just a bit of a backdrop to the aya sofia now this is something that existed way before i mean it may have been kind of further done up and things but it existed before islam and i believe it was built by justinian i believe it was justinian the first and it was in its original form a cathedral and it was at one point the largest christian cathedral uh in christendom if that's what it was claimed to be

the largest in christendom if not at least um in the eastern part of the whole christian world the byzantine dynasty and which was uh the kind of roman dynasty in the east so that's what it was up until uh he conquers and then they convert it into a masjid so the question is first of all should we be converting places of worship into masajid this is one question we want to look at

secondly okay even i mean that's secondly should we in now be reconverting something to a masjid so first is the original conversion and then the reconversion to a masjid what are our thoughts on all of this that's the backdrop to it i would say uh and adding to that in the time of the salaf when we look at the sahaba's time many of them did not uh like when you look at the rulers like um when he conquered jerusalem

he didn't convert the holy sites into masjids and even though he was given an opportunity and there wasn't there was no resistance to said umar's entrance to jerusalem he did not convert the you know the church of the holy sepulchre or other uh or other kind of holy sites to chris to muslim holy sites he didn't do that and that was never the objective of islam okay now this thing of the aya sofia this

was converted in sultan fateh time some people claim he even paid some christians for it and i think historically whether they did it or not is something which whether they did it or not it happened khalas it happened i don't think islam encourages you to convert holy sites into masjids so for example if we look at the the quran we will have in suratul hajj allah speaks about people who

are given power so allah in verse 41 he mentions who these people are they are people who have been given power people whom if we gave them dominion over a certain land or in the earth they established the salah they established worship for people they established a welfare system for people zakat they commanded kindness and goodness

and prevented that which was harmful and indeed to allah belongs the end of this fear or of all affairs but the verse before that uh allah speaks uh so the one just preceding that leading into that mentions of allah if allah had not set up a certain people to resist against another group of people

was so to repeat that lola if allah had not set up a a group of people to resist an opposing group

monasteries um places of worship beer on people say synagogues or salawatun and areas for restricted or restricted areas for prayer one masajit that these things would have all been destroyed in all of these places allah's name is glorified often now notice allah says about sawanya about christian monasteries allah's name is glorified in them so and synagogues

allah does not say and this is you know suratul hajj this is speaking this is in medina allah is speaking about how uh muslims should be because he goes on to say who are these people these are those people who if we give them dominion this is what they do that they would prevent such things tragedies from happening so islam does not set out to convert holy sites to mosques it's never that's never been the goal of islam but

people muslims have done that okay many not just muslims many people have done that one may argue that one of the reasons they did that is because that these were the main buildings in their time so people built you know the places of worship as major buildings so whenever a new community came they saw that major building and they thought yeah that's you know that's a perfect choice to make it into a prayer facility since it's designed like that and you see that muslims did that christians did that in muslim spain they did that as well uh you know they turned many of the masjids

but to be fair muslims when they took over they turned the christian things into masjids they also when they took over turn the muslim things into christian cathedrals it seemed to be you know back and forth a kind of law of the jungle that took place in the medieval times it was neither it was not encouraged by islam but it wasn't prohibited if it was just something that seems to have been the politics of men that they did so okay just to be clear on that so if they did it in the past i'm not saying it was haram it wasn't i suppose they've kind

of conquered and this is what they did i don't think it was a good thing i don't think it's a good thing but it i wouldn't say it was haram per se because it was the politics it was the kind of battles it was what they were doing and you know everybody seemed to be like a a practice that people were doing like the way they took slaves i think that's a it was a detestable thing but the whole world was doing it muslims were doing it christians were doing everybody was doing it so it's like that now the question is that it did become a masjid and for many centuries it remained a masjid

now when turkey was set out as a separate state nation state in the kind of decades that followed you see that this hagia sofia the aya sofia was turned into just a museum now the argument has come that we need to convert this back into a masjid why because it was once upon a time a masjid this is the crux of the argument that why should we turn this into a masjid because it was once upon a time

in masjid now i would say look it's not about halal haram okay because the aya sofia is in a muslim country it is the property of the state of turkey it is the property of turkey they can you know from an islamic perspective and from this statutory legal perspective they can do with it whatever they want you know they it's a listed building but if turkey decides to turn it into whatever it wants

they could you know they could say we're going to put a car park on this side we're going to do this we're going to do that we're going to you know it's up to them they could say we're going to have opening hours on this time we're going to do this the question so it's not about what is legal and illegal or what is haram and you know not it's not about that so but the question is is this a rightful action right and wrong and there are things like the hadith teaches you that you will know them when they are wrong i would say that this hagia safiya aya sofia

converting it into a masjid is absolutely wrong it is uh it is a great mistake that is being celebrated by people allahi these people i feel lack insight about this about world affairs turkey i feel is only doing this to gain brownie points the the the regime is doing this they're pushing it to gain brownie points with other states to become the new leaders of the islamic world

turkey is you know erdogan for a while has been trying to shape out his identity as the new amir al-mu'min in islam and he's trying to rival saudi arabia who have had that position traditionally i don't know why except that the haramain are there so turkey has now tried to you know first of all with this urtical drama uh promoting this everywhere and they've been doing this with many other mosques as well by the way uh in turkey churches turning them into mosques and things like this but this urtical thing that spreading this i you know i i've not watched a single

episode i can't honestly i find these things preposterous but anyway to a lot of people love the drama fair enough i haven't got anything against the drama per se but they look you have to understand something the ottoman empire was never it was nothing more than a dynasty that just happened to be muslim it is not symbolic of islam um they were you know nothing in fact the ottomans they first you know what the actual rule was they what they had concretized as the unspoken law was as soon as the next sultan comes in

fracture side mandatory fratricide whoever is going to come in has to kill all his brothers this was the unspoken i mean it was the unwritten law and even some of the humbly ulama gave them the fatwa that it's permissible i don't know what they were what they were smoking but yeah so the the ottomans were never these representatives of islam they never even claimed to be this you know this is the dumb thing that you know muslims today are so some muslims these kind of romanticized ones are so in you know in a dreamy

state of mind the ottomans never claimed if you read the uh the titles that the ottomans used to give themselves it was they used to give themselves the title caesar of rome that was their title the caesar of rome including fatih and these people you know they go on about him and other people look sure they i'm not saying they were horrible people they may have had some i mean they were just people they had good size to them they had really bad sides to them they were not symbols of islam later on we romanticized them to be these symbols of islam

they weren't even in the middle east so much later on when they established they were more so in eastern europe but they had nothing you know the way we pitched today it's presented like this dream image oh they were like sure i mean they were muslim and i'm not saying that they didn't respect islam i'm sure in their own way they respected islam just as muslims today respect islam but they weren't symbols of islam yeah if if that makes sense to you you're not going to see today countries like you know is i don't know do you but even they don't so yes so

the problem with this with this converting uh uh the aya sofia first of all this has if you see right just one moment if i bring here you can see people will say that look i'd like to uh you can see here that uh this is a the quality didn't come up well here but you've got here the blue masjid here the sultan ahmed masjid by walking on foot is a four minute walk from the isofia

a four minute walk [Laughter] four minutes that's how it is literally just in front of it right now there is no need for a new masjid we don't have a need first of all i'm just trying to eliminate that aspect there is no need okay the sultan ahmed masjid the blue mosque famous blue mask has the capacity of at least 10 000 people inside it it's a huge masjid um so first of all just to clarify it's not a need basis i just want to get that out

the way the second thing is that people might say okay there isn't a need but this used to be a mosque so we have the huck as turks in the country turkey it is a muslim it is a country of muslims by population democratically speaking we can convert it back can we not but then i will say to you and this i'm saying to all muslims who are supporting this yeah you know and they're acting all emotional oh my god the ayah sophia had the adhan [Laughter] are

stupid i'm not going to let you get that that is so stupid because every masjid in in istanbul has got the adhaan you know it's like oh my god we've heard the adhan from the eyes of fear oh my god i'm so emotional you know that large blue masjid over there what is that announcing what are all these other hundreds of masjids in istanbul announcing every day five times a day the adhan stop acting like you've never heard the adhan stop being such a drama queen you know this whole thing people saying

oh my god oh my god oh my god look i want to say to all these people who are having this cathartic moment of joy and they're saying well we have the legal right because democratically there are more muslims i mean there's atheists and christians there as well but there are more muslims in turkey clearly and therefore it's under our jurisdiction we can turn it into a mosque this thing which which i will call the thracemaking rule that's so you know thrasymachus who was a contemporary of socrates he believed that might was right that if

you've got the power you can do it might is right so this law or the principle are you know through simicon principle or the law of thrasymachus if you want to abide by this fair enough but don't come crying tomorrow when masjid al-aqsa because it's under israeli control is then converted back to the temple of solomon because it was the temple of solomon that before it became any masjid and it is under their control don't come crying back

when about the babari masjid or any of these other masjids in india that they say was a mandir was that this masjid used to belong to such and such temple of such and such lord before it became a masjid it is our right as a democratic majority of india as hindus to convert those masjids back to hindu temples why not all we need is uh you know it's the law it's the law of thrasymachus might is right it's whoever has the majority all we need is a legal right and we can do it so why are you crying your heads off at

things like jerusalem you know what's your problem when it's against us then it's bad you know this is the stupidity the lack of insight in this day and age i accept that it was a masjid you know for many years but before that it was a cathedral now for decades it's been a museum you don't need a new mosque you don't need you know people are not dying to pray you know this kind of like oh my god we've got no way to pray right leave it let things be you know you've got a masjid

four minutes in front of it literally that capacitates thousands right and you've got hundreds of masjids in istanbul so you're not there's no shortage of masjids now you're going to say well you know no no no the power of islam i want to hear the adhan is so beautiful like i've never heard the athan even though that large masjid over there is announcing it every day and all these other hundreds of masjids are announcing it on speakers which is a bid let alone that we don't go into that discussion the iran was never meant to be you know kind of like yelled on the top of speakers but anyway

jello will let that slide the point is that you've got the adhan but no we want to hear it from this museum because islam is we've got power tk but the power that that that swings both ways you see and tomorrow and israel is expanding this is why i you know like you can't then have this kind you can't play it like that i feel by that argument israel absolutely has the right by that argument to take down uh what is it convert it why doesn't it by that argument by the principle

of thrasymachus it's their land their legal rights their courts have ruled and they've got the power and it was first of all temple of solomon before it was any masjid so yeah so i i feel that this is you know part of this is the right wing fascism that is rising in the world today and it's not just hindu nationals it's not just trump supporters it's not just uh far-right jewish zionists it's also muslims as well who are doing exactly the same thing

except they're coming back crying wolf when you know when it's being done against muslims so i would say look just think these things through for god's sake that you do you really need a master and people say well it's still going to be a museum but it's going to be a masjid as well subhanallah you know and oh and when it was a masjid it was a walk i heard this one guy say when it was a masjid it was a walk an endowment and a walk can never be overturned [Laughter]

what is to say and keeping in mind that they are hanafi and with the method although they disable hanifa on this later on they forget him as well you see look at the power of politics huh when abu hanifa himself the founding father of his methab he says there's no such thing as wealth okay you can walk is an endowment that you can never be overturned he says that yes you can donate the benefits of something but it will always remain uh you know you can always overturn it and then obviously they walk away from abu hanifa on this because

it doesn't uh serve the interest of the polity it doesn't serve the interest of the powers that of those that are in power it doesn't serve the interest of the clergy who used to get a lot of their money from the endowments and i'm not saying the endowments are a bad thing they are a financial system that was very helpful but the reason the scholars were so behind it was because it was through endowments that they got their money so you know and and this is a fine example despite almost worshipping you know i use that term loosely imam abu hanifa the hanafis

yet on this they throw him under the bus you know what if he said it this is the hanafi's will say so what if he said it you think a cha-cha-cha and all this other time when we're saying all these things you're like no but imam imam abu and even you know one of our teachers used to be like

and here they throw him under the bus because it doesn't serve the cha-ching but this is my point anyway so um look this thing i feel it has already now become a masjid but it is a great mistake because tomorrow you know you you go up a notch then zionism will go up a notch they will take it take jerusalem exactly as they want it india fascists hindus will take it up a notch they've already built from there haven't they they've built raman they'll probably start with other things let's convert this back to a hindu temple

convert this back to a hindu temple look at when allah says in the quran in all of these places allah's name is being glorified i'm not saying this if i was to imagine that verse wasn't in the quran and i said that today that oh but allah's name is glorified in all these places people would have said he's a kafir he's a jail for saying that how can he say you know i spoke to somebody um damn i did my life and then i kind of switched off but he was still on the and we ended up chatting and he spoke

about christians and he was like christians are the greatest muslims mushriks we can't have any respect for them allah you see if i had said this to you which i i'm saying it to you you're going to say well you're just a deviant anyway allah is saying that you know these places youth group in all of these places allah's name is so often cathedral so often glorified that yet you yeah

but anyway i so i so i am kind of like i i see all these things and i see the ignorance and it really and i see the insecurities and it does disturb me that's why i was saying that and i've seen these videos on the mandir as well by the way in in islamabad and people have gone there and they're saying that anyhow this mandate is built and if randhan wants to build a mandate he should build it in his backyard they're like where he's got a mansion behind that he should just build a hindu temple then

yeah what is the problem what is the problem honestly i don't get it you know this whole thing of see muslim this is the problem we've become such bigots we want everybody to be tolerant towards us we want everybody to give us a second chance we want everybody not to judge us to be accommodating for us when pakistan muslims will talk of india they will say yeah what's wrong with these people why can't they accommodate for those muslims why can't why can't they allow them to build their masjid why can't they allow them to carry on with the madrasah why can't they allow

them to have their own talaq system why can't they allow them to all of these things they will say muslim pakistani will say yeah what's wrong with india why doesn't and when it comes to them oh my god allow hindus to have a temple this is the land of tohit ah you know this is the problem isn't it we've become such a bigoted um intolerant people who only know victimhood we can only cry when we're victims

we're never compassionate towards other people we're never like understanding we are just always oh the world doesn't show us sympathy the world doesn't show sympathy well yeah i mean this is why i actually i do support them building for other cultures in pakistan pakistan is not a khilafah for god's sake it's a nation-state it's a state that has it's a sovereign state that has citizenship and in the citizenry you've got all subjects are equal muslims are not above non-muslims in pakistan it's like saying in the uk you can't it's not christians because it's fundamentally a christian country

above non-christians so you can't expect you know oh because they there's so many there's only a few hindus why should they have the right it's like why should muslims in the uk have a right to have a masjid well there's only a tiny percentage well look you it's it's an equality an egalitarian approach but yeah i hope these words you know give some meaning to those who wanted me to speak about it