Mindtrap w/ Mufti Abu Layth 01 [Pilot episode, Politics & Pandemic]

Mhm. All

right, people. All right, what's going on? What's going on, people? Let me see, first of all, are we live, yeah? People This is lockdown going down.

People Can you all see me, by the way? I don't know if you can or not, but this is um This is actually audio's a little loud and scratchy. All right, okay, let me see. It's got the mic, and it's got the Hmm. I don't know which mic is wrong on. All right, let me see.

Is that I don't know if it's going to make any difference. I'm trying to adjust some of the This is a different uh PC and stuff that I'm using right now. As you can see, it's a different place that I'm seated at, so audio is jittering. Still jittering? Uh one moment one moment one moment. What's going on? Should I use voice this?

Mhm. One moment. Oh, let me see. Now, I could use I use this. And then if I pause this, is this any better by any chance?

Um I don't know if that's audio still jittery. It's still audio's horrible. Audio is not working. Mhm. Is the audio any better, people? Hello. Hello. Hello. The audio is still horrible. All right. Going to Let me go into properties, change the audio thing again.

Audio is good now. But I don't Then they're going to be like, "Why is he swearing?" I'm asking, "Is the audio right?" They go, "No, it's not good." Then they go, "The audio is" Then they go, "Now it's perfect." Then they go, "Now it's crap." All right, cool. People, well, let me bring on today.

This is Minecraft with Mufti Abu Layth. This is the lockdown beta version. We're just running a few samples, but since we were having a chat anyway, we're like, "Well, what the hell? Let me bring in my esteemed my esteemed guests." People, first of all, the first bit chart I were going to bring in, let's see if he's got any volume as well.

Uh is people, that's Mu'adh, our uh homeless brother who's currently in double trouble, one for being homeless, two for for being in breach of the quarantine. Well, I don't know if you can hear Mu'adh. Mu'adh, can you speak? Can Can anybody hear you? All right. I don't know if you guys can hear him.

But, uh and we've got Get Allah here, people. Somebody know that's not somebody breaking in. That would be uh That would be the wrong time to do things like that, people, because it's clearly obviously everybody is uh All right.

What is going on, mi gente? What is going on? So, it's lockdown, as you can imagine. People, we've uh All right. So, talk to me. Talk to me. What is People are saying the audio is good. So, we're having a chat anyway. This is Those of you that can see is uh Momo right there, MM. What do you prefer to be called, Momo?

MM? Momo? MM is cool. MM, and you've got Mu'adh over there. So, we were having a chat anyway. I thought, "You know what? How about Somebody said, "Why did you say that, Mufti?" Why did I say what? About the About what? I I hardly ever say anything that's politically incorrect. So, talk to me. What is going on? So, we're having a chat.

We thought, you know what? Let's um Let's Let's Let's Let's get our thoughts out there. All right? Allahu Akbar. He says I want to know can people Can they hear They can hear It's good. The The subtitle thing is a bit off. Subtitle?

So, what it is, it's automatically subtitling what you're talking about. Don't know for sure if it's for everyone else. All right. Okay. So, you can hear Momo I don't know if you speak. Let me just see. Can Can we hear you speak? Can you hear me? All right. Can people All right. Yeah, it's kind of fluctuating between you two. Okay, that's fine. Right. So, can we ask you questions? Yeah, go for it. These are both students of knowledge, right?

All right. I know you guys are watching that screen. So, those two over here Those two's So, Momo and Mu'adh are both friends and students who are currently I mean, right now they're on lockdown, but they're currently studying in Al-Azhar in Egypt and privately. So, what's We can take some discussions, some questions.

We can maybe throw it at some of the young'uns over here. What do you think? Momo MM's audio is a little loud. Okay. We're trying to fix it. Is that for you or everyone? Oh, wait. Oh, no, no, no. You guys don't do anything. I'll I'll got this. I got this. I got this. That should be a lot better now. Speak, Momo. Um can everyone hear it's okay. It's okay. You said too much.

Enough. Why do you always keep talking, for God's sake? Momo's having childhood flashbacks. So, what's Momo gets an echo? Momo's got an echo. You know, is that because um the desktop No, the desktop audio is switched off.

Momo, it shouldn't be that there's something feeding back. Uh there's not two things You haven't got two things on, have you? You haven't got a phone and a All right, cool. So, go on then. Let's take a look at some of the questions. Look at this, somebody straight away wanting to talk about aqidah. And the ash'ari, behave. The whole world is in lockdown. And he wants to talk of all things, he wants to speak of free will.

Does it look like we got any god damn free will? No, we got three people here trapped in quarantena right here. So, what's going down? Where can I find a list of mutakallimin? Well, you can just find that in the books of mutakallimin. There's many books of mutakallimin and maturidin, nassai. Uh you'll you'll you'll get a few if you just look it up. What else? What is What are some interesting You know what?

Why don't we Whilst people are putting some questions, Yeah. uh let's just get our thoughts. This whole thing that's going on right now, worldwide, Momo is also somebody with a keen interest in political science, political history. Uh Mu'adh as well has also had a uh a history of politics throughout his life.

So, so but that kind of puts us in some position to talk about things. MM, what what is going on, man? What what what do we think? Do we agree with this lockdown? Do we not agree? What's Que está pasando? Mhm. I think I think I think it was inevitable, wasn't it? I mean, obviously obviously we were speaking about this for quite some time. So, I feel like it was inevitable.

I mean, people can say it was a bit late, a bit delayed, but you know. And to be fair, I've been admittedly I didn't really understand why people were locking down until I until I kind of watched what people who were on frontline NHS staff NHS staff were saying that, you know, it all this is to slow the curve down. Like, you know, no health system in the world, be it the best, let alone the worst, would kind of um handle it being overwhelmed if it come down to people too many people getting sick at once.

So, I kind of understand it now. Mhm. All good, thank you. Cuz do you think Look, we were just saying earlier on, Boris coming into his career, you were saying that this, you know, he's wanted to do this his entire life. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean, you've been following him quite closely, I take it. Shows what people do when they get bored, but So, but any person, let's just be honest, any person coming into this at this stage, Yeah.

inheriting this, or finding themselves in this problem, not actually inheriting because you wouldn't inherit this problem, but finding yourself in this problem, could anybody handle this? No, but it's like, you know, the famous saying the famous saying, Shef, if it's too good if it's out too good to be true, it probably is. Mhm. And Boris Johnson's premiership was that. He was he had the best premiership He had the best premiership you could say since Tony Blair, really.

Of course, Gordon Brown inherited a financial crash. David Cameron came in with a coalition government. Theresa May had to come under a coalition government with a minority in Parliament. And then you had Boris Johnson who's been seen as the hero of Brexit. He's been a very loved mayor of London. He's got good economy and he's got overwhelming majority in Parliament. Like, what the odds are in his favor. He won in two places from, you know, his election took took the heartlands of Labour's support away against Tories which they haven't seen in decades.

So, you know, he he had a He was in very good stead. Look at him now. I'm chilling now. Chilling, chilling. And then child, hold on. It's like, uh-uh-uh. You're naughty, naughty. You see, it's amazing a force that's invisible. Exactly. And I was actually thinking about this. This is uh for all the people watching this as well. I was thinking about this that the person who was patient zero, yeah, subject zero.

Can you just imagine like what they must be thinking if they're still alive? That Yeah. So, they must have as I was saying you know with you guys, they must have read like a fortune cookie saying, "You know what? You're going to make a huge difference to the world in 2020." And even they that couldn't have imagined the kind of difference they'd make.

Wow. But you know, you know you've seen what Trump you've seen what Trump's saying about um he wants the country to go back to work on April 12th. Trump wants to go back to he wants to He wants to go back to work on April the 12th. saying that he thinks he can handle it. But it's He's won the money and also he he says, you know, he's been pushing conspiracies but he says that all people are trying to lock the country down so it hurts hurts him badly in the polls.

Remember election up Those of you asking, I'm fixing I've fixed up Mo Mo's mic hopefully. So, carry on. Sorry. It's an election year for America, isn't it? Yeah. A lot of politics What about this hydroxychloroquine? I mean you know the the the anti-malaria thing in addition with some other are you I mean shouldn't people be excited about all of this though or nah not really what what are You're following the politics.

You know the the new the new drugs because Trump from what I've come across he's trying to push this isn't he? What are the drugs? I mean Yeah the new drugs yeah yeah the the anti-malaria. Is this just you think it's just just to get people back out there for his vote campaign? 100% he he's he's on the he's on the campaign trail. Yeah but then what would be the purpose of if he's going to put the public back out there that are just going to [ __ ] the country?

Was it was it not Was it not previously that he didn't believe it? Yeah but okay now you've got dead bodies coming in and things like this. I don't know Trump Trump I don't know as much as I as much as I despise Trump but I hate You know what you have to really admire. He's done what no man he's done what he's done what no one thought he would do. Mhm. What what what is that? Blackest way to the top.

All right Trump Ziva you're doing it you're doing it right. Awesome. How would you describe Islam if you were to relate polytheism with uh what is it with polygamy and monotheism with monogamy? What is Allah man and woman in Islam? People your question right there and the clock starts now. The question is uh how would you describe Islam if you were to relate polytheism with monotheism?

Oh sorry if polytheism with polygamy and monotheism with monogamy. Where is Allah in all of this? And where is man and woman? Sick games. These are some sick games going on at this time of night. Are these Is this the Is this the creation of a new genre? Is it happening right here on Mind Trap?

Say that again. Right, so Momo, do you find in your studies you're being pre-programmed into a certain way of thinking? What do you think? I feel like if I hadn't studied with Yusuf before, then yeah, 100%.

I was I mean, I'm not pre-programmed, but obviously you would be you would be your pro your studies you're on a certain mindset. The live stream seems to be lagging. Okay, I mean, if it This, by the way, for those of you that are tuning in, um this is because like the What does this mean?

Lower your encoder settings, shut applications heavy on the CPU. Okay, I'm going to uh yeah, carry on, sorry. Uh those of you that are watching, by the way, this is a kind of just like uh a kind of dummy trial thing. We were just having a chat anyway, a bunch of us. We were on Skype. I was trialing this out, the whole Mind Trap thing, and I thought, well, why not go live whilst we're at it and just share some thoughts.

During the actual podcast, as it goes, you know, as it's up and running, we will it will be in much, hopefully in in better quality in terms of streaming, because I'll have an idea of how to set some of the um the encoding encoder settings as I'm seeing some warnings here, but carry on. Yeah. A kind of just like Oh, no, we're talking about we're talking about about about my pre-programmed study.

Um I don't I don't I don't think it's deliberately pre-programmed, man. I think everyone every teacher just kind of gives you what they what they kind of what they've been taught, isn't it? Or the way they've been taught. Um Yeah. I feel like obviously this is probably I think if I hadn't studied with Mufti before, it would have been easier to get away with I think probably easier than Mufti people. Because you don't have the need you know, you just you don't have those kind of preconceptions of Mufti or preconceptions of what is in Islam.

You just follow what you've been taught. And now it's like, you know, with Mufti you've been taught to challenge everything, not to take everyone's stuff value. Question everything. And maybe people who are seen more traditional will not maybe accept accept that or accept that. I don't know why I'm going to feel that. Um I think I think with Egypt um See, it's interesting because Azhar in itself does is meant to be kind of promoting critical thinking.

Yeah. Um And that Mufti had this known to kind of like if you want if you want to say like the modernist kind of way of um or modernist understanding of Islam. It's generally people do see it like that. So, if you look at in many parts of the world and whatever. Um I think um the thing with Egypt is cuz when people people don't really understand that there's Azhar institute and then there's Mufti and then there's separate kind of like smaller kind of institutes like Muftis.

Um It depends on what um or like what you come across who you come across um because I I've seen people that become if you want to say are very critical when they first come into Egypt and then they become quite close minded. Um after seeing with some of these mashayikh Also opposite is true as well. People become People become very close minded and then end up leaving very open minded by the time they leave. So Yeah.

Because I think but um because what I find interesting was that I was told that um if you're going to limit this discussion let's just say to Al-Azhar that it promotes let's just say critical thinking and you could be any background and you can um and it's you know they're going to get you to kind of like um you know they're not going to really they're not really going to just feed you one type of manhaj. Um it's not going to be pure pure dogmatism but then I remember when then seeing like some of the students or let's just say even seeing some of the discussions I then realized it's very like Ash'ari like you because I was told that if you can be Salafi you can be Sufi you can be Maturidi Ash'ari whatever kind of

background. Um you know in terms of sticking to one madhhab or allowing talfiq. But they're very um but I realized Al-Azhar in some aspects is still dogmatic in its way. Um maybe in aqidah it is. In fiqh I know they're a bit more kind of like you know um you know what I'm saying? Do you not find that it's definitely the American students? I find that I find that for me the American students because they for whatever reason they cuz they many of the Americans who study Islam are practicing Crown.

They're very against liberalism and liberal movements. So their Islam has to also be conservative. So their Islam is like one madhhab one school of aqidah. Yeah 100% because I remember um even when I would discuss with some of the students um and yeah it's like exactly the way you're describing it and um is they whatever seems to be kind of like conservative would be seen as the Islamic view.

Yeah traditional traditional Let's just say you ask okay what about certain scholars on certain positions. Um you know then I think it becomes that kind of like cognitive dissonance for them. Oh, cognitive dissonance. Rather big word there. So, yeah, no, definitely. I think with the British students, see, it's weird because I like I remember even speaking to some of the British students, I find them to be as on a personal level they're a lot more chilled out.

Yeah. And who who who is more chilled out? The British? Yeah. Yeah. The British are more chilled out than the Americans. level, yes. I remember I on a personal level, maybe they might be close-minded in terms of views, but in terms of they will still kind of like want to chill out with you. They would still But I I I I put that down to because Americans uh especially Muslims in America don't so much have uh culture.

So, they they They don't have culture? What I mean by that is they they turn Islam into a culture. They bring it down to identity politics. Yeah, identity. So, that their Islam is their identity. So, any attack on that, anything any any like any kind of disagreement with that is attacked on their identity. like seriously speaking do do the British people not do the same? I mean, in some ways much more. Would you not feel that? Because because the British people would have been they're very known they they're Pakistani for example or they're Arab for example or they they have identity already that's separate from religion.

Mhm. Okay. Mhm. So, you think okay. So, you found them to be the Americans to be more kind of what? Like dogmatic or more uptight or what what what are all those things? 100% in maybe regard I mean, when it comes to the views, British students and Americans might be the same as in views-wise. I mean, as people like you can I find that Americans like there's no separation between them and their views, if that makes sense.

No separation between and their identity of religion for Americans for example. Whereas British people they have their strict views maybe, but as people, they're very chilled out and very, uh you know, affable. Yeah. Okay. I mean, you know, a lot of people ask, you guys are studying abroad, obviously, right now there's the lockdown, but as students, you're at different s- stages of your life slightly.

I mean, similar age group, but I mean, Mama, you're in 25 now, I take it, or 20 26. And Muhammad, you're 21. 22. 22. Yeah. So, a lot of people ask sometimes, look, I want I want to study Islam, I want to do this, should I go abroad, should I What should I do? And and it's interesting because obviously I would have an opinion, but if I'm when I went to study abroad, it was when I went off to study was the late '90s.

Okay, and I came back in 2005. It's now 15 years, the world has moved on, it's been through so much. What what do you What do you guys think about I know you're in it already, but for somebody who's not in it, for somebody who's You see, because it might be different that you're you've already got so many years invested, you've got a you know, you've got uh ways set up now, you know, you you've got a a routine, you know, you're conf- confident, comfortable.

What about people somebody who who's young now, they want to study? Is what are your thoughts? Is this still something that is still an open open door of opportunity? Is this something now it's well, you know, things are very different. What do you guys think? Somebody who wants to go to study, should they pack their bags and go or no? Uh let's What What are your thoughts on this? Should I Um I mean, the thing is, it's interesting because I think uh one I think in this day and age, because of let's say the use of technology, there's a lot of things available online, and the Western kind of Islam, like where Islam in the West has obviously progressed.

So, you've got my Sheikh now with that institute in the UK, in America, in Canada. So, there is a lot of stuff there. The thing is I I mean, cuz I've got even like some relatives that have asked me about, you know, Islamic studies and whether it's worth going abroad. Um like personally from my experience, I would then ask them, why do you want to go abroad or what do you want to do with Islamic studies? Because there's not, you know, there's no money in there in that sense. Like if you just want to become like an Imam There's there's no money.

What what qualify that? What what are we talking about? How did it shift to money? You mean I Just for Just for your information or anything. Because the thing is the question is what would be the objective? Like if you're studying Islam for a personal thing. Mhm. Now, you've got that available. You've got an institute, you know, if you want to study, let's say Arabic, there's, you know, there's so many things available. You want to study faith, you can sit with scholars. The thing is now you're going to spend like, you know, 5 to like 8 years abroad.

The question is why? Um like if you want to become like a scholar, you want to go into academia, okay, that's a certain kind of route. If it's going to be, let's just say, like I just want to learn Islam Yeah. then Yeah. then you're kind of throwing yourself in the deep end in that sense because, you know, there's a lot of things you have to take into consideration what you can do when you come You would would you recommend you would recommend you'd say depends what what what are what are we saying?

It depends on what you want to do. Here is Here I am a 20-year-old. Is that my Is that like a dummy impersonation? But I'm here like I don't know how 20-year-olds would now Hey, it's all it's all good. Oh, we hate toxic masculinity.

No, I don't know. But let's say a 20-year-old, I say I want to study Islam. I mean, is it a good idea still? I don't Is it not or it does it depend? Or are you saying? Get your affairs in order first? Are you saying what what are you saying? like what I was saying is like why? The question is why? If Why? What do I want? Yeah, what do I want? Is it because I want to have a qualification in Islam? Then that's then yes, that's still available as far as I know.

do you mean a degree? Do you mean the knowledge? What what do you mean by yeah, degree. Not not knowledge. Not not knowledge. If you say I want to become I want to Some some people like I I mean funny people say to me, "Yeah, I want to I'm studying I don't know how to learn that for example to like intermediate text in in in Nahu." Why? "Because I want to learn my deen." I'm like No, that's not going to help you there. Like what Like do you know what I mean?

What Why do you want to study Islam? I want Oh, because someone someone said to me, "I want my ibadah to be better." Well, you don't have to go for 4 years to do that. You pick up a primer text in intermediate and then your ibadah will be correct. It doesn't it doesn't take years to do that. So, if you if you say I say no, I want to be a scholar of religion, then that's different now. Then there's a whole process for that. Then you have to learn Arabic for example. Yeah. So, some people are asking some of you asking some of these questions.

Well, I will put them across as well and we will discuss them. It's just I don't want to I don't want to interrupt Mawlana's flow that sort. So, okay. I mean I I agree with you that look, the world has changed so much. Yeah. The you know, there was a time where Yeah, I mean there was a time where Islam like when I was a kid growing up, Islam didn't really have that kind of value of as in somebody wanted to study it. But by the time That's as a kid, but by the time I was like in my maybe about 17, 16, there there emerged a culture I saw.

Maybe I was just becoming observant of it at that time that all of a sudden it was interesting Islam was. And then it started to increase and increase and this continued for the next several years. There was this almost it began with this sincere I want to learn knowledge like from Hamza Yusuf kind of his revolution almost of which he kind of almost led pioneered almost this return to Ihya Ulum al-Din. Let's revive the sciences of the deen.

Um then it eventually became this kind of celebdom almost this celebrity culture of scholars and imams. Are we now in a post scholastic almost are we still there or is it what you see because I don't I don't know. I won't say names but if you look at the people who are you'd say the lead imams in the west they're not known for their scholastic I think as you still think associated They're what social what sorry?

Like the social justice endeavor social Social justice I suppose a bit like what like maybe Sheikh Omar Suleiman or other people He's he's he's a you know I'm sure he's an amazing person but he's not known for his scholastic angle. Sheikh Hamza Yusuf was known for traditional Islam. He was known yeah that is true yeah. He pioneered that in a lot of social like in the last decade sorry like traditional Islam was Hamza Yusuf.

Yeah. Is he still that in in the impression is he It's funny because I find that if you look at Twitter for example you find anyone who maybe 30 30 and above and 35 and above will have a respect for Hamza Yusuf. I have a deep I have a deep respect Yeah what he said or does and me and Sheikh we met up with him at the Avenue's. Yeah yeah. He said to us he said to us that my generation will never appreciate Hamza Yusuf the way that you all have.

Mhm. Yeah. And the love you all and the love you all have for him we won't we won't have that love for him. Cuz it was that and I I think that's probably true. I love Hamza Yusuf as well but And what what what you know you you said that those under 30 let's say What the trend that you notice? They know him Yusuf Islam, maybe. They know him post 9/11 as Yusuf. Like the kind of sellout version, the the kind of snowflake version. This kind of This is the kind of terms people use.

I obviously disagree with this stuff, but And the version he he is now is like someone who's People are What is the main topic we're on today? Be honest. Generation Z so much is social justice, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And and on social justice issues, he's seen as someone that they can't relate to. I see. But I mean Is he Is he irrelevant, do you feel? He's irrelevant.

I feel like he's not irrelevant, but they would like him to be irrelevant, basically, if that makes sense. They would like They would They think, "Yeah, why does he still have a say? Why is he still talking?" That kind of thing. Mhm. He would not disagree. I think he We've got a lot to offer to us. are our scholars relevant anyway today? I think Yeah, I think the generation Z, but I don't think you can put them all under one umbrella, personally.

Different people in different circles. Mhm. What was that in my circle that went to universities? I mean, we could I mean, I suppose it's an open question. It's not is actually, isn't it? Okay, scholars are still relevant to people who study Islam. Yes. Yeah. Scholars are still relevant. That's it. Those people are still relevant. People who are studying who go to to everyday Muslims, no. But everyday person who goes to university and is interested is practicing, but not but not studying Islam full time, they don't really care what they say.

But but do you feel feel that in some less say rural parts, let's just say in like in Birmingham, Al Aqsa or these areas, they still look up to that preacher type of standard? Like the young I'm surprised I see him No, I think that I think that's everywhere. Do you mean by that as in they have an adulation, a sense of respect for them. Is that what you Don't conflict child scholar. There's very different things here. No, but but if you're going to use that as a in in a broad term because I think that people don't really differentiate.

So when they say scholar, they they generally use it as a kind of like people will listen to like preachers that they do assume they're scholars. But the scholars are not respected for their knowledge, are they? Like Mufti Menk is a good example. No, no, no, I I agree with you. I agree with you that I mean I'm just saying that how people see them that when we say that our scholars are relevant I think for example, now let's say for academics, they might be relevant.

They might be relevant. They they are You feel for academia they are relevant. I think I mean it's it's interesting because I remember Cuz I mean you know what you just said, Mufti Menk. Now, Mufti Menk is in in my understanding, he's seen as somebody who he gives off like like that kind of like almost Like that angelic type of Yeah, that kind of it's it's almost like a relic in the sense that he's he's there for blessings.

He gives a nice preachy kind of Iman boosting kind of When people want to feel bad about them, they want to feel guilty sometimes. Like they want to feel that they want to be told And they want to be told nice stories as well and and and he kind of fulfills that role and he's a very, you know, he's always smiling which is which is which is which is good. So I mean I think with the with the let's say with the academic, let's say if you want to take university as an example.

I mean it's interesting because I remember I was speaking to Mufti Menk about Twitter and he was saying like you know, there's like this kind of clash between the academics and the traditional scholars. So and I think now what the I think what's interesting is if let's say people that don't have a traditional training in Islamic studies, they can still acquire that because you know, if you know Arabic, you can you know, read the books yourself. They can and you you see people, let's say as an example, uh if you don't know the name I'm going to say Daniel Haqiqatjou as an example.

Now Well, example of what, sorry? Well, well, he is an academic, like his background is in I'm just I'm just saying just to be clear. So, he's What's the same reason? Sure. Say that again, sorry. You're not saving You're not saving this live, are you? Am I not saving it? You're not saving it. Because this is live. We are live. Hey, habibi, this is this is uh This is the world in front of us, babe.

Babe and all. So, now, what Yeah, about uh Daniel Haqiqatjou, what what about him? Using him as an example, whether we agree with him or disagree with him. Uh but I'm saying he's someone that doesn't necessarily have a He's not going to put a hit on your head or anything. You can talk freely. Even if he did, because of the lockdown, the hitman won't be able to get there. It's It's No, I'm just joking. I don't know Yeah, but what He as in he's an academic person, he's somebody who went to I think he went to Harvard, didn't he or something?

Did he go Harvard or am I Yeah, he went to Harvard and did something like that. I'm assuming. But if you see if you see him now, now he's he kind of like he he doesn't actually have traditional training in Islamic studies, but he's kind of seen as a scholar now. Even if you look at him, he doesn't actually So, it's interesting how I think the access to it like the sacred sciences is becoming more it is becoming more accessible. So, I think with with now the question is is traditional let's say the traditional Islamic studies curriculum, would that be relevant to people um or let's say the future scholars because um nowadays Somebody had posted here, Yusuf Hamza had said scholars can be relevant, but sadly they are not.

What is it that they could do to be more relevant, do you think, or more I don't You see, I I'm I'm actually a bit stuck. What what do we mean here by relevant anyway? What what do Do understand, Mama, when we're saying relevant? What what do you understand? Relevant to who? No. Okay, that's a great question. Now we've got on to who? Now we need to define who.

No, but which is relevant to who? Like that you know you know that meme with the the kid from The Office with the COVID-19 and it's like and they've got the guy saying how did that happen? And it's and it says China. How did that happen? What? So okay, what First of all, this question our scholars relevant. What does what do we understand the word relevant here to mean by the way?

What do you understand from it? For me it's someone who engages with the day and age. Well, that's that's how I kind of understood it as well. Someone who engages with the day and and someone who's not someone who's not merely a historian of the law, historian of the law. A mere jurist is not like to do do nothing of of of of text. It's not nothing like that. Yeah, nothing like that. That's easy. That's that's like I can just pick up Arabic and within you can learn it in 6 months to a year and just read it and copy and paste.

That's not scholarship. For me a scholar would be someone who engages with the and provides answers for the day and age. Is that You see now we're going into into thought processes. So if they are somebody that has studied, they have done this but they're not really producing any original thought or even that kind of thought process, are they not then scholars?

say scholars but my personal opinion. But then is that is that not What about you Muaz? Would you consider them scholars? They're historians. They're your historian of the law. Mhm. I mean the thing is I I used to have these discussions with other people like and I I realized this with actually all some of them are Are you trying Are you trying to show off that you used to have discussions with other people as well? Are you trying to tell us that you've got more friends than us? Is that Is this what?

Well, some of them are some of them Yeah, sorry. Yeah, so you were saying when you Yeah, of course, when you have discussions with other people unlike us unlike us loners. But even like people would say like let's someone that studied for let's say 8 years or have done the traditional Islamic studies program, are they still scholars? Um because if you look at it like Mama was saying that they just copy and paste. Um the thing is um One is I mean people I would respect would say that they're scholars, but um I I think whether they're being them being relevant, um it all just depends on their background because um most of the let's just say the scholar because most

of the scholars as well are not really relevant to let's say to the youth. Right? As opposed to let's say even tackling with the major issues, uh theological issues, you know, issues in jurisprudence. So the thing is I mean I would say mhm I mean we have to say the future. I guess so in the next let's say 5 or 10 years. Does that Did anybody understand what Maaz just said?

Is that Is that I think it's just probably COVID that's got me that all. I I don't know. I was like what is he between trying to fathom what he's saying and trying to think is somebody about to leap out that wardrobe behind him. It's 7:00 a.m. in in Egypt. He he should be forgiven. It's a No, no, I'm joking. Yeah, so No, I think that's very some some good very interesting thought about what is scholarship.

I do agree I I would personally if somebody has been through the training or they've studied the Islamic sciences I would consider them to uh personally be a scholar. I I would. I would say that they are scholars, but then I would say Sheikh was saying scholarship not crazy a yet to a quality team, acquisition of knowledge.

Yes, so I would personally I would, but then I would still have a problem with those kind of scholars that are not which is because the problem because the question at hand is that's the majority of these so-called scholars are not critical thinkers. They're not people with original thought. If I didn't consider them scholars, I would then barely think that there are any scholars because people with original thought are so few.

What's that? Sorry. Scholarship And they're not many scholars. I No, I feel that there there are scholars, but but I would then have a problem with these people as a kind of failed you know, that they are not they are failing the people. So, it's like if you've got doctors, they've graduated, they've done the thing, they are doctors, but then they gross negligence, let's say, there's you know, that they are failing the people.

Isn't isn't isn't it an issue when when the traditional Islamic studies turn and into that kind of uh routine like the sort of root of academia and at the end of it you you're given a certificate and now you're a mufti or now you're a sheikh or an ustad. Isn't it Wasn't that the problem? Like I don't know historically wasn't it more of like you sat with a teacher, you applied some of the different things and then your teacher kind of says, "Okay, yeah, you're kind of ready."

Yeah. I mean But the question so you're saying you're comfortable in saying someone who goes through six years of Islamic learning is not a scholar. You see, I I would accept that as scholarship. I would, but now there's an issue with the quality. So, there's a there's a quantitative element, there's a qualitative element. I would accept the quantitative element.

that the overwhelming majority of those who come out of that madrasah six years, eight years, however may be, are failed scholars? So, what? Somebody's asked what's mind crap? There you go. You've fallen right into it. That's it, people. That's what mind crap is.

So, yeah, sorry. Carry carry on. Would you accept that the the majority of those who And if you do accept this, by the way, give it give it a percentage. Would you accept the majority of those who do ask me for example or those who come on any of the luminaries or question on as far as they do a couple of weeks on no level of fellow scholars?

On low level? On low level scholars or fellow scholars, would you accept that? Yeah, I You see, I Yeah. So, I I would accept the quantification. What percentage of that of these people? Just put a number. Of the who I think are kind of failing people. Yeah. Those who graduate.

I would feel maybe 95%. Okay. So, all of them majority, yeah? Yeah. Isn't that Isn't that then an indictment of our system that not working? Our system is not producing scholarship. Spot on. That's true. Or Or is it But is that because for example, the apparatus uh or as in the In this case, not the equipment, but the books are useless or redundant or more so the teaching methods are problematic?

I mean, either way, it could it could be both or one of them or both. Either way, it shows that our system is not producing scholars. It is not that, though. I agree on the conclusion. That that is true. Yeah, it's not producing scholars. Mhm. Right. So, people are I mean, I It's This this is a It's a fascinating discussion, really. I'd love to, you know, on this explore this with with many people. I'm getting your thoughts.

You guys are still on that end going through the the whole process. You're on the the kind of conveyor belt to achieving uh scholarship in this whole I think Imam Imamship or if I can call it that. Um Yeah, so it's it's a it's a fascinating journey. I have to say though, I do love the Islamic sciences. I love the learning, the different aspects.

Um it is something which is in and of itself a wealth that is um an unrivaled, you know, unrivaled kind of wealth that Sufyan al-Thawri they transmit from him that he was asked and he said if people knew they would fight us over it with swords as in if they knew what this thing was valued at. But either either it you know, it is that or maybe Sufyan al-Thawri was was high at the time.

Uh let you know, people are posting some questions. Let's see some uh All right, so somebody's saying uh Abu Layth got the akimbo. I don't know what that is. Uh H-Town in the house. I don't know what that is. Mufti's got bazookas. All right. All right, what's You know, there was a question here that went a little while back. I want to tackle it. There's a lot of talk this uh coronavirus being a punishment from God.

Well, let me just throw it out infect you guys with it first. What's the what's what what are what are our thoughts, man? Mama, what do you think? I mean, um is this one of the flakes? Nah, doesn't apply to me, man. I mean, naturally people are naturally people are going to blame um you know, God.

Not blame God, but say we're especially from God we've we've turned away from God cuz it's an scapegoat, isn't it? You see, I don't mean I don't Yeah, so that's one aspect that is this from God? I don't obviously I don't believe this is from God. This is a virus. Uh but what do we think about this this whole narrative of saying that, you know, this is God purging filth from his creation?

I mean, what do we think of this as a narrative that people are Cuz people are sharing this, ain't they? Definitely. Yeah, I've seen that. You have, haven't you? So, what do you what do you think of that? Is that doing harm? Is it doing good? Is it something Is it bothersome? I mean, I'm going to be honest with you. I mean, I'll let you share your thoughts first. No, I mean, I'm thinking about it. I know I kind of feel like it is definitely detrimental, personally.

If Okay. Detrimental because I feel like what else can this accomplish if it's from God? You said earlier on that you know, when we were chatting that these scholars are doing a global toba. Yeah. Talk to me about that. What are they doing toba? Why is that they've been doing that they've been doing toba from It's It's It's in line. I find it very interesting because I think in Islam we don't have that precedent, but in Christianity we do. In Catholicism we do.

Catholicism, you know, you know, come on, you know, save yourself from purgatory, save yourself from the hellfire, come and give your tithes, for example, come and do your confessions. It's very Catholic like, isn't it? But, you know, you're very Catholic like you must We must be purged of our sins, and then come and do your confession, pay your tithes, for example, whatever it may be. I I but I don't find it that precedent within Islam, but we have this like, okay, now Okay, yeah, God is God is punishing us. We must turn back to him.

This I mean this is happening everywhere. Yeah, a lot of people are doing it. In some ways I can understand that people need to connect. So, they want to kind of connect with Allah in times of difficulty. I get that. And I watched this dua by Tariq Maulana Tariq Jameel Saab where he's really crying, very emotional, incredibly emotional dua. And I can understand that. And you know, some things in it that this is a time for reminders, for us to ponder upon creation, nature, that something invisible has brought the whole world to a standstill.

Are you so arrogant about your powers? Are you so arrogant about your cape? And I think, you know, in some ways that is a a true that does it did hit me. I'm not going to lie. I I heard that and I thought, "Damn." You know, like you said, like Allah said to you know, the that look at you, you know, you think your strength is this and so on. There's that side and that side I feel that. I I I feel it and I think that, you know, there is but that they are huge receptors for that, meaningful receptors.

But then there's a side like uh like I saw some people doing this whole, you know, like um just this kind of like just crying. It's not so much about the emphasis, but more about feeling really terrible Yeah. as a person. Like, let's you know, feel real guilty. Like, huh, that this is because of my sins Allah is doing this.

Uh that I mean, this I I have You see, I find that problematic. I mean, I don't know what what Why? Why do I find that problematic? Because I feel that first of all, this isn't because of some this isn't because of our sins. Yeah. Okay, but it is it does have like anything in life has an an ibra, you could take heed from it. Like, saying that look, wow, something microscopic invisible has brought the world to a standstill.

Look at the the the of Allah, like what he can It has that and that, you know, strikes a chord. But for somebody to say, you know, we should say I should be crying that this is really because of me sinning. Yeah. I'm thinking you know, but then then they're going to say why does Mufti swear? I'm going to say, what has my sinning got to do with some guy in Wuhan, you know, like eating a bat or whatever he's doing.

But yeah, is there any is there this is there any of this in Islam? Not not for globally, but personally. Cuz you know, obviously we don't have karma within Islam, but is there anything close to that, for example? Karma? You know, obviously we don't have karma, but anything close to that. But like if I if I do bad onto others, will I not feel anything like that? And if and if not, then what's the meaning behind it anyway?

Do you Okay, would you feel karma is the only way to to kind of like I I get the fact that okay, I get the fact that people feel that there's accountability. I think there's if we draw that distinction, that if I do bad, Allah might, you know, take me to account for this. That's one thing. I would agree with that.

The other thing is I did something, now automatically like that kind of samsara, this will come around and it will happen to me. What goes around comes around. Like in a bad luck sense. Yeah, that would make sense. Like that kind of stuff I don't believe in. Islam doesn't believe in that kind of bad luck, superstition, karma, that kind of stuff. But I mean, is that what you what you mean or what? What is the karma What are we doing?

What is that if I do bad to others, then not not not disobeying God, but if I do bad to others, should I expect bad to happen to me or not? Right. Those people posting some questions, bottom guy talk more. What made you guys think he was alive? He's just He's already gone. COVID's done the Mhm.

Bottom guy is just taking up screen space. He's taking up oxygen as well. I You know, I I thought maybe we can offer you as a sacrifice to to COVID-19. Yeah, but I mean this this whole guilt thing coming to this I mean do Mhm. Like so who are you you mentioned some ulama are doing this. Is there any particular ulama or is it every I don't know who have you come across.

What what's going on? What's the What's the score? I think there's a sharia but it's like pushing sharia and pushing Omar and What what is it that they're doing? What is it that they're doing? It's like zikr gatherings and you know, tawbah for these kind of things. So So zikr is one thing, it's doing remembrance. Tawbah is a different thing. What's the tawbah element? They're telling everyone like they're giving out specific litanies for this.

Mhm. As a form of repentance for example. So like istighfar for example, they're telling the murids to increase in istighfar. And the reason why But the question is then the Sheikh is saying that Allah does not give any Zaifa, you're doing it. Much love right back at you. Is there Does Allah Does Allah give out tests to you? Allah does give out tests. Okay, true true true. No, no, I'm asking you. He gives out tests, yeah?

He does give out tests. Not test papers, but yeah, tests. Mhm. Carry on. What what Now I'm asking you, what are the What What's the reason for these tests? Such as what What does God get out of it? Yeah. You see, it depends what we mean by what we mean by a test.

You see, what we mean by a test. What I understand by test isn't Okay, so let me rephrase the word because I was just kind of going with as you were saying it. So, yes, I believe that Allah tests. When I understand this term, I understand by as in he allows struggles. Okay. Like he sets or allows this dunya to present to us struggles.

These struggles are tests for us. Okay. That's what I'm understanding. So, I'm not understanding that God is saying um you know, hey, I'm cuz I I'm not I'm I'm just clarifying in case somebody understands something else. I'm just trying to standardize our understandings. Then, in this struggle, the purpose of it is growth. It is attainment.

And that you through this struggle will grow. Now, okay. I mean, is that is that what you're understanding? What's What are you saying? No, people that over burden people, yeah? Mhm. I'm trying to understand what kind of What kind of test does Allah give to people? And why would he do in the first Or or is he just allows things to happen to you?

Like why is Allah doing like what what's Like what's up with Allah? Like why is he doing these things? Is that what you got? What I say this Why I say this is because throughout the many years of you know, your teaching for example, I've noticed that and it can be controversial. The way maybe you present Allah is almost as if he's a distant God. Mhm.

As in as in he hasn't no he doesn't get in cuz you say this a lot of interfering our day-to-day stuff. You say you know when you try when you explain the way miracles for example you say this when you explain the way kind of say no Allah is not going to break his nature Allah has set his thing. So is it is it So is it the case that you see or do you get the impression from my not the you get the understanding or the impression from my teachings that God is an impersonal God?

Yeah, so he just he set the world up and he's gone he's gone now. This has happened. No no I definitely don't believe that but I do believe that Allah is a personal God as well. Um but I feel this has been I've said before one of the most difficult things that humans have ever had to reconcile. That between the impersonal and the personal and I feel the personal God is what you experience.

Okay. You experience his intervention you experience his uh uh and at the the kind of rational level you understand the impersonal God. Do you understand? So I kind of feel that God has set laws in nature and he's done these things. Um Right. But you know let's just say do you feel that your understanding of God would work for everyone? Cuz don't you think some people would need that kind of like um that kind of understanding of God which is personal and let's say if you take it Yeah.

Which a lot of people a personal God but what I want just we've got a said we much love you all right at you. He said this brothers are blind followers. That some people on there are blind followers. I'm sure they I'm sure they are. That is the problem. You mean you're a blind follower? No I don't think I don't think he mean I think he means probably in the chats in the chat as opposed to our discussion.

You see I do believe Allah is a personal God and I feel that this is what really the meaning of the verse you know, that Allah says "Laytha kamithlihi shay." There is nothing like unto him in the sense that you can't understand. Like you can otherwise never make it connect between the personal and the impersonal. But here, when it comes to Allah, "Laytha kamithlihi shay." Now, let's let's take an example.

Like when you like let's like miracles. If you would take that as an example. Now, Somebody said he finally spoke big up. Let me get him his his own screen here. Carry on, yep. Yeah. So, let's just say certain miracle that you would give a kind of like the way you explain it is that there's natural kind of causes for that that nothing kind of supernatural happens.

But do you feel that Allah wants that miracle to happen? So, let's just say now if you're struggling financially, now something happens through let's say natural means. Did Allah want that to happen? Was that just purely the laws of nature just taking its its kind of like play? Because it's always that discussion about iradah in the aqidah books. What And I find it very interesting when like The we're talking about willpower, yeah?

We're talking about as in any scenario. Like you you like say for example you give the like let's miracles where someone was getting late for let's say for work and then all of a sudden like um you know, he got there on time. Yeah, he got to let's say to work on And this is a miracle like God has helped him. But one is you can explain that through the natural means, but is that what God wanted to happen?

Like how would you answer would you say it Like you want me to You want me to phone him and ask him is this is that what God wanted to happen? That's That's That's That's That's That's You thought I was going to You thought God answers to me. Right. So, those of you some of some some of these questions Anyone in the UK watching God knows if anybody in the UK's watching.

If Mufti woke up or he didn't sleep Sleep is for the mere mortal people. Sleep is what And then I say that and then I collapse. Vampires Vampires uh Maryam, are you doing Birmingham? Big up. All right. I trust you Mufti. You have more love. You're doing it. You're doing it. Those people There was somebody who said, "Oh, could you uh Mufti does not believe in the deist line of thinking.

I don't believe in that kind of uh um in that line of thinking. And I wanted to just clarify that as well because uh And somebody said uh uh I was like Ali Hussein asking for a shout-out. You're doing it. You're doing it. And is that Ali Hussein also saying M is handsome? M is very handsome as you can see, right? Otherwise, we wouldn't have him on this live stream.

Right. So, just to be clear, I feel that there are different ways that within just as just as you see on the universal level, you have certain laws. Laws of relativity, special relative general relativity. We have these laws out here. On the microscopic or subatomic level, things behave differently from a physics perspective.

There's different and hence they're trying to find a theory of everything to unite all these general forces and things like this. Now, in a similar way, taking that example, this kind of dualism almost of reality at a from the quantum to the cosmos, I feel that Allah has in terms of created everything, he is obviously he has set laws in nature, he set things, he's given freedoms, he's done what he doesn't intervene like that from that perspective.

But when you zoom into the individual within, Okay. Right? Allah says in in the horizons you've got that and then within and within. I feel that at this level we experience God. Okay. And I feel that like like right now look like this coronavirus or anything that's happening, I know there's very unfortunate people and there's many people who are fortunate who or in other difficulties in life or challenges, they may feel that wow like, you know, I feel God saved me.

Now I know this may trigger other kind of but right now we're just looking at it from the quantum level. Right now it's just that person. Their experience, here this is the personal God that they are experiencing. Now that doesn't once you kind of come out to the inter people level in the sense like and you're zooming out, those kind of modes of operation, you don't see them.

Like God is not going to a tree's fallen down and say, "Oh my God, God can you I wish God would lift this tree up now." And then God's going to come and lift that tree up or it doesn't happen like that. I know. Just as the laws of physics are not broken but at a subatomic level they do. Yeah. A particle can be in two a two places at once. You understand? So that's and I feel that that's difficult just as it's difficult to understand quantum physics and normal physics it's difficult to understand the personal and impersonal God within but I feel that it is an existence and we do need at some point a kind of theory of everything.

So, what would you say like what is the what is the point of dua for example? Of dua? Yeah. See, that's our kind of communication, our line of communication, our channel of communication, our feel with Allah. It is our opportunity to kind of reach out, to cry out.

One can say what You see, one can say expressing yourself is just as meaningful to you as it is to the other. Okay. It is isn't it? Wouldn't you say it is as meaning like expression does obviously have benefit, obviously it has a target expression.

Yeah. But one cannot strip away from it it's meaningful value for the expresser. Yeah. Himself or herself. True? Yeah. I mean, I don't Dua it's you see it's dua I feel does is beneficial on many levels. Does it prevent harm? You see, this is a faith issue. I would feel it could prevent harm but obviously we would never know because if it prevented it never happened.

Yeah. But it doesn't alter the nature of reality. Like if I said you know, ya Allah, this is a Samsung phone, ya Allah, you know, I make dua turn it into an iPhone. Yeah. It's not going to work. I mean, it doesn't matter, you know, not that I'd want an iPhone but still. Yeah. But my point is that it doesn't work like that. Yeah. Um So, we've got some people in the house.

Uh Mustaqim, oh my god, I'm so happy. Musti, how did you do what you're doing? You're doing it. We've got Hashim Butt saying, are you actually a Mufti? Well, I've you know, same question. Is that really your surname, Butt, with b u double t? I mean, I'm just saying. I'm joking. I'm joking, people. I'm joking. Polish your character, god damn it.

Oh, is that to somebody else? That might be to somebody else. Not to me. Right. So, yeah. I mean, I I I I don't know. I think these are difficult questions and What do you think is that I'm glad I'm glad you clarified that, cuz I feel like for what I understood for some time, I thought you only taught in person, in college. No, I I cha cha cha.

Is this you trying to do me over live? MOMO, IF IF YOU want me to just sort something out, or if you want me if there's another issue, just say that. I mean, rather than screwing me over live and saying, I cha cha. All this time, I thought you were a kafir. And people are like, wait a minute, if that's what his friends think.

See, this is This is how you get done over. This is This is why people the world is in the mess that it is. Have you not Have you not They backstab you like this. Have you not Have you not Have you not Have you not seen how people go How How How people rise to the top? I don't know. This is House of Cards right here. Happening, people. It's in the making. So, Momo is taking me out to take to to take the seat as uh Next Monday.

Next Monday, you see, Monday nights with Momo. On nights with Mama. Mama turns up he's sitting there. He goes in the Hamdalillah wakafa. Oh, sorry you're talking about Mufti's that was the last season. Uh wow. I keep I keep thinking that somebody's going to jump out of that wardrobe behind Muadh. I don't know why.

Muadh is that there's some politically Yeah. to kind of say like you've come out of the closet. You've come out of the wardrobe. I tried to symbolize something that you've come out and you encourage others to come out. No, no, no, no. Some people say who are them two guys? These two are my friends, students that's uh we've introduced them already Mama and Muadh.

Okay, both from Birmingham, both currently students who are studying in Egypt, Cairo. Although Mama did manage to make it back before the lockdown. He sneaked in. Right? That's it you got But the purpose of life is to polish one's The purpose of life is to polish one huh? What? Polish who?

All right, so Yeah, I mean I think woman huh? What's this? What question on woman did you eat on behalf of a continent? What the hell? Oh, you're quoting something I I I quoted in a Come on. You see when you say something like that you need a Zeba has asked answer my question Mufti answer She answer my question.

What was the question Zeba? Yusuf Hamza right. Zeba I feel it but this is a big bang is a theory of fact. Loving these vibes Mama do rising. Mama's rising. This is it. I got to be aware. You know the kingdom, they say the the saying is whenever there's a fire it always comes from within.

The virus people can only kill you from within. That's it. Learn something. But see, I got to be careful. I almost You see, you geniuses learn something from COVID-19. It can only it needs to get into you first. It needs to infiltrate and then it can take you out.

What's going on here, Mufti Menk today? Right, so I have these rights. There you go, what's your question? I'll take your question. We will wrap this up. I know these guys probably need to get some sleep. I don't know what the big pyramids and sphinx are going on. Yep, that's these two over here. They've got Egyptology on lock, people.

HT World, you're doing it. Facebook chat looking angry. Whoa, I've not even really looked at the chat. That's why they're probably angry. I've just been really Cairo is too hectic. Yeah, Cairo is hectic, man. Busier than London, that's true. Mufti, why don't you go mainstream with general Muslim public to teach your views? Uh I do I don't know what that means.

What does that mean, lads? Why don't I go mainstream? What what what what what what do you understand from that? What does that mean? Go mainstream to do what? Teach your views? Islam. I thought I I I thought I am mainstream. I delu- delusions of grandeur. And all this time I'm sitting here thinking I am mainstream. And Miriam comes on here and says, "Mufti, why don't you go mainstream?"

I didn't get your question. Uh Mufti versus traditionalists. No, Maliki Algerian says closures of masjid is wrongdoing. Well, send him to Italy. Time to go to Italy and open up all the masjids in Italy. Prince Andrew is with Rachel 13. I don't know who that is or what Rachel 13 is.

What is the question? People Quite a few people are saying Zeba the the question. Zeba, I didn't get the question. If you post it again, a link. There are many names of God, 100 in the Quran mentioned, but do we know God is the causer of the Big Bang? But truly there are many more. As in people there's God has many names.

Uh but do we know God is the one the causer of the Big Bang? Or Mu'adh, was that was that your abba, your dad? Mu'adh, cuz what are you talking about? I thought that was my dad who caused the Big Bang. Mu'adh's dad is a very good friend of mine, by the way, so it's all right.

It's cool people. I'm not violating him. And so, do we think God caused the Big Bang? Or was that one or was that visional? I don't know what that question truly means, Zeba. I'm trying to we're trying to fathom it. We're trying to fathom it. You need to start teaching a classical text, maybe a primer on Maliki fiqh.

True that. True that, people. But it's just How are the polygamy the classes. Don't worry, guys. Yeah, oh oh. Mu'adh, MM's going to rise and try and set him up, undercut me. Uh how do you describe Islam if you were to relate it to polytheism and and polygamy? I don't think we could really understand that. I mean, I don't really uh relate Islam to monogamy.

Do you relate it to monogamy? Is that I mean, if Muhammad, would you relate it to polygamy, monogamy? Does this question make any sense? Mu'adh, in your case, would you relate it to celibacy? Is it No, I'm joking. Would you Well, what do we What Does that question make any sense to anyone here?

I don't I I'm trying to As in, can you make some sense of it? Can you relate it to uh Can Do you Do you see Do you Do you Do you think of No. No? Mu'adh? What, celibacy? No? Monotheism, monogamy?

One god, one man, one woman? Not feeling it? Not feeling it, ya Sheikh. Not feeling it. Sorry, Zeba. I tried I tried to push this theory across to them. They They them They use They're not buying it. They're not feeling this. I I I didn't really even understand the question. Why lie? But, I mean, I I tried to make sense of it, but No, it's definitely not a good analogy.

Could you Could you tell some good history books in English on Fatimid history? You know, I had one right over here somewhere. Well, I'll have to um get it next time. Roasted the poor guy. Come on, I don't roast the poor guy. I'm just being honest. He's a student of knowledge. He's a hard working student of knowledge. You can tell by the size of his forearms.

My just go like that. There's a Oh, I go Still celebrate, huh? Well, well. So, men are allowed four wives, they would say. So, You're trying to say that men are only mushriks? Only women, only one husband in Islam. Also, should women be allowed to Do you think what it should be kind of like multiple both way?

Swing both way multiply? What do you What do you think? Mama, you feeling that? My laptop's playing up. What's that? Your mind's playing up? My laptop's playing up. Mhm. What have you been watching on there? In quarantine, there's not much else to do. You're like, again?

You're like, I've I've clocked this entire website. I need I've clocked like 10 websites in 2 days of quarantine. Also, comment. Do you Do you feel that it should be not just polygamy, uh polygeny, polyandry? I mean, not just one man four women, but one woman four men as well? No, I think No, and I'm not talking about that video. I'm talking about Do you think I'm talking about theory?

What do you This is why I get you trouble, people. This is what This is part This explains my life so far, but Yeah, so What What do you think? No, I think it goes against nature, man. It goes against nature. Yeah, man. What about an open open relationship society? Come on, like let's say you've got uh your spouse right now, if she says, "Look, you you can you know what? I'll tell you what, you can have uh another two, three women as well, but I I want another one, two men as well on the side." Yeah.

But that would happen if you come out of youth. No, but from a if So, one was to argue it from a uh uh uh they're trying to be rational about it, trying to say justice. Justice? You've heard of justice, haven't you? The thing is though, Chef, you know, me, I'm a lover man. I'm a partner, you know, no issue. You're saying it's okay, you can She's she's a lover as well?

No, no, no, she she she loves you. That's why I'm a lover as well. I'm a lover as well. This is why I want a few more men. If she if she goes to the streets, what's that? Say that again. She goes to the streets if she does that. Come on, that's that's hypocritical because now if you if you're saying you can handle multiple women, why can't a woman handle multiple men? That's the question.

Huh? I think men and women love differently. They love differently. She's saying, "Don't worry, I'll love the other guys differently than It's okay." I think with women I think with women there's more of an emotional attachment. Mhm, okay, interesting. Achcha. As as opposed to men, I feel like I know it sounds weird, kind of sounds wrong, but just being real, I feel like when the men um do the being to my it can just be that and they're not feeling attached to it.

you're saying can differentiate between love and sex? Yeah. You You feel women can't? I think some women can. And most of the women, but I think it's some Oh, you you know you're going to get roasted after this by people are going to You're going to be on the supreme hate list. It's late now, isn't it? You feel that there is something biological in the sense that if we look across nature, we see mainly the female species are monogamous by and large.

And male species are generally tend to be polygamous. Yeah. All right. So, they have Okay, one person They have limited holes. Yeah, that's enough. Uh that's I don't know what that See, this is the kind of This is the public This is why we are like this because that's the congregation people. Then obviously the imams are going to be like this, isn't it?

Uh Celibacy is not inherited. A man is like a fire engine. Of Fire engine, sorry. Who are the other two brothers? Uh I mean, they're not quite brothers, but TK, if you Yeah. We're both We're both We're both I've seen monogamous and polygamous men and women. It's true. I You see, I think it's an interesting question, though, from a because what women are saying, some women are saying that look, is it not And I think that's what Zeba was arguing in here or questioning is that is it not um

you know, it's not fair that I want a bit of fun as well. Yeah. Because to be fair, woman could say, "Look, I'll tell you what, I'll be monogamous with you, but I just occasionally want She's like, "Since he's black, I've heard this I've heard the myth." She might say, "As an occasional I mean, Pakistanis can only go so far." She's probably going to say.

But if a person You see the thing is if a person that argument that look, okay I'm emotionally with you but I too occasionally just as a one-off like a little I mean from a a rational point how how could one respond? That's a good question.

How would you respond to that? How? You see it's this is it I it's difficult it's difficult. Listen, what what about Mu'adh? Let's bring Mu'adh in here. Mu'adh, how how would you respond? Mu'adh is practicing the art of celibacy, so He's not he's not practicing he's mastered the art of he didn't impose. He's now a master at living one of the few living uh sages and I don't I have to put this book on it, so What would you say Mu'adh?

What's what's your thoughts on this? What about whether women can be um polygamous? No, like if a woman is saying look it's not fair. Um I would I mean the thing is I mean if it's a desire at the end of the day like if she wants to do that if she's expecting the sharia to just kind of like say it's halal. I don't really Okay, okay, calm down God.

Did Mu'adh think we just we told him to play God all of a sudden? He he's trying to come in as the voice of God. No, I'm joking. No, carry on sorry sorry. I mean the thing is I mean the thing is that when women actually say that do they like one I mean it can maybe just be like a fetish, but could they actually live like that because let's even like if you look at if you read up studies about women who've been in multiple relationships and or have done certain things let's they do suffer let's say psychological issues in the future.

Um even let's say stigma within society, uh, whether she's been with some people. So, I mean, I don't really think that But even even even as an experiment, Sheikh, yes, it's going to be very crude, but let's say you put a man in a room with 100 women saying he can have sleep with any one of them. You know what will happen? All of them. He will try his best to get through expand your caveats. I thought when you began this scenario like so well, I didn't want you to put any caveats there.

That's all that's being crude now. The 100 women, all of them, yeah. Like he'll try his best to get through as many as possible. If you put a woman in a room with 100 men she can sleep with, she'll feel like she got raped. Yeah. Okay. Now people are going to be guessing that that you know that normal's they're going to be working on your imagination and the kind of things that you've been exposed to. No, but okay, that's Okay, that's a question. I I agree with you that I think as crude as that sounds, not the but I think the the general kind of scenario of saying a woman generally by and large does not

think of like an endless sea of men. That that is true, whereas men probably do sick dogs. This is all This is all they think of is it is something. So, it is I I get what you're Yeah, so one could a kind of asymmetry in in in the genders. Is this what we're saying?

Where do trans people fall in that? That's a whole 'nother discussion. That's That's That's a bit off calling them a discussion. That's a whole 'nother discussion. It's looking nice. No, okay, what about I think that's We're going to have a discussion on that another day, the whole trans thing. I think that's But That's actually Normal's arguments are pretty terrible, not going to lie.

Use a full act. Fair enough. Well, you know, if Can't prove anything. The not Uh, what the hell? What's wrong with people? That's a crappy analogy, somebody said. What do you think about Quran? It's Okay, that's for a different day. You can't just go from this Come on, behave, people. We're talking about Just had an analogy. We can't go from that into discussing things like the the Quran nature of the Quran.

How are you going to tell who is the dad? How are you going to tell who is the dad if there's multiple guys involved? What if she says she doesn't want a child? That's true. She says, "I just want to do this for for fun." Pleasure. Pleasure. Because look look, the argument is Remember, today monogamy is just one man at one time. Yeah. It's not like in one relationship.

Like the relationship might end at the end of this year, and next year is a different man. So, people are not opposed to that. They just mean one man in one nikah. Yeah. Hmm? Hmm. I mean, these are difficult. These are very difficult questions, to be honest. I Paternity testing solves the issue of child. True, it does. Uh Mhm.

Uh What cannot be attained entirely is not abandoned entirely, men's mindset. Hmm. I don't I don't You see, I'm not saying, personally as a person, I'm not saying uh that Like I I I do accept uh that men are polygamous by nature, more so by and large as the rule. And I accept that maybe some women are, but by and large, I do agree with what evolution uh and you know, generally science dictates and shows that women by and large are seeking other matters.

They do also enjoy and partake in these experiences of uh you know, of of of intimacy and they enjoy all of this just as much. If you know, so it's not I disagree with people who say men are more sexual per nature. It's just that they women may be seeking something else. That's all. So I don't I'm not trying to say they lack or are less.

I don't feel maybe they're even more in some ways, but it's it's different. I I think that they I I feel there's an asymmetry in the kind of targets. The goals. What do you What do you feel? I mean there's a lot of Moaz, there's a lot of asymmetry coming from you as well in this whole field. What do you What do you feel? What's up?

Yeah, I would have to agree with you, Sheikh. I agree with you. I do agree. Yeah. What we need It is, but I feel that this is a very, you know, as a question, it's a very difficult question because when you hear it as you know, it's like I was saying before, you know, bridging these gaps like the cosmos, the quantum, the impersonal, the personal. I feel from a when it's just stated as a question, you're right, it comes very it's it's difficult to answer.

Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Right, people. Well, I think on that note, we should maybe wrap this up. What do you think? Sure. I mean you too. Guys. Shukran for you. No, thank you so much, man. Those of you that have kind of like hacked this out, all this kind of what this mayhem that we're speaking, if any of it made sense, well, you guys are much more intelligent than we are.

So with that, as always, there will be more of these. Uh the whole point is what I want to do is maybe start these off uh in a very kind of casual nature. Just just get things a bit like maybe even today. This was very casual, very draft version. Just an experiment we were just uh about on it and we thought, "Well, look, let's go live. Why not share some of our thoughts?" I uh would like uh obviously, as it kind of progresses, we kind of iron out some of the glitches uh that, you know, there's a much more I mean, these were very serious conversations, but there's also interviews with ulama and stuff like this.

That's what the platform really is for. And it's really for uh taking difficult dialogues and and and and crucial conversations and having them and navigating through them. That's the whole purpose of all of this. People take very good care of yourselves, wherever you are.