Islamic Psychology | Wanting ~ The Ground Of Desire | Objet Petit a | Mufti Abu Layth

oh allum all right people I take it we is live so whilst people are tuning in clicking like and share I'll just ensure that today's session is uploaded here so right people tune in click like click sh spread the love the peace the Salam hi hi hi

allahar I want to take a look today at um expanding further our journey into Islamic [Music] psychology we should have a good grasp of Islamic psychology huh what do you guys think we should do it gives us it better equips us to navigate through these tumultuous Waters

we call Life Allah Allah so right whilst you guys are tuning in today we will be taking a look at a theme of wanting desire wanting which is the ground of desire and how and first of all why is this important where does it tie in in our our journey of Islamic psychology and also how does it um add value to to our lives knowing these things what is the the kind of strength

[Music] and yeah how can we tackle this angst anxiety this stress this suffering along this journey Allah of this configuration we call the dun huh so whilst you're tuning in and and clicking like I'll see who's tuned in we've got the Benjamin 786 Allah

bless the one who discovered flight truly or is the earliest documented you know before the unfortunately modern contemporary outlooks are just very eurocentric butas Legend of Muslim uh scientific technological discoveries of the past so many centuries before yeah

get it what a poem what a poem i' come across that it just goes so well with i faras as well about the whole Heights and flight right uh Aletta yes the audio is great I did uh run a quick check today before beginning because um of uh last week right great video on bukari gate shukran shukran Allah bless you you know some point we should do

another video on something like or maybe a podcast on bukari gate the problem I find with these things is it's difficult finding people to have that discussion with um most people either you know don't understand the topic to that extent I mean it's not too Little People's understandings but it is a complicated you know it is difficult Uncharted Territory for many of people and it's not something easily understood because bhari

um the the kind of is to be understood through the three approaches really and then then kind of a discursive analysis of those three that you have the um epistemological the ontological and the [Laughter]

phenomenological you know sometimes you know it must it must be done must be done uh but that these three are the uh what must be looked at the the kind of phenomenon of bukari as a phenomenon so it must be understood from a um just from a phenomenological perspective you know how it uh the the impact it creates at a psychosocial level uh the anthropological development

all of these things how the um the legalistic every as a phenomenon as a whole you have the phenomenological um essence or the case study or the analysis of sahkari or yeah sahkari and then you have the um the kind of um ontological with its being what is it its kind of essence it's um its developmental Journey kind of I guess divorced

from the human Journey for a moment and and its Essence its Evolution that that is the ontology its being and that study and then you have the epistemological study which is the study of knowing what we know about it so in terms of how was it documented uh the manuscript um kind Journey that takes place after that how that varies along the way how the riat first of all uh what is

extent and then from what that which is extent what further um diversifies into these riat and then the the kind of scribes that follow and the the attempts of standardization now these three you know they are a bit like a Broman knot that they you know they they intersect in ways and that is a study yeah that is a PhD I should do a PhD in

this why not why not and then I thought but I don't like typing and then Allah through his Mercy revealed chat GPT AB so it's um right so that's in any case the show the session must go

on right um strongest solar winds in 20 years h shukran i mean for bringing that to our attention I mean the thing is look there are things that we can do something about and there are things we can't do something about that which we can't do something about Let It Be You know it's not like uh um my stressing is going to change

anything so yeah now right let's um move for oh man G all the way from London v g all right getal compa all right how's it going and well shukan I love you too all of you right so um I do somebody said you don't sleep I do um we we'll speak about the uh bukari

gate later what I'll do is at the end of the session I'm going to share a link and you guys can jump on and we can have a discussion right so bismah what we took a look at previously in our journey so far we have understood we have covered from an Islamic psychology perspective and you know psychology in essence psyche means the spirit the soul um it has from there gone on extended to meaning the mind and I guess by extension the

self so from there the term psychology began in the late you know 1800s and you're going to have this journey coming down since especially in the western hemisphere of psychology and what it tends to be is often the study of the brain the study of behavior human behavior uh the study of the kind of interaction and psychological interplay that takes place including complex topics like the unconscious mind and the conscious mind

that's in the Western Hemisphere ISL AMC psychology would incorporate that but it would really tie in the psyche which is this NS this r that we have and it's bond to Al Allah the one and only the real okay so now and and this this kind of Journey that takes place in understanding what is going going on within this ego within

this NS within this R this Consciousness and what you know what are these difficulties and challenges I'm facing along the way this angst existential or this anxiety or this state of suffering or discovering and exploring that is Islamic psychology okay so that's the journey inshallah I'm on with you guys for at least several sessions

so we've taken a look at the um the kind of origin creation story you know just looking deep into the ontology of being and why Allah created being so the earlier videos were on that I've done that a few few sessions ago then why Allah created us specifically you know what is the purpose of that and from there we've taken a look at the uh the mirror stage the formation

identity formation of the ego this configuration this story as we come into this world where it you could say where it its first um its Origins with being emerging from as um in the famous that that I was a treasure not known I loved that I should be known

Allah says so from this love divine love and this will Allah from this Divine love Wills into being the first primordial unbounded sense of beingness and that's not a thing in the you know like as an object but beingness itself which then mirrors to Allah his glory and his majesty and from there creation would begin with meaning initially because from being intelligibility meaning emerges and then

all kinds of meanings and whether you want to say the these different mean meanings and realizations of the potentials of Allah's names this is later what will be taught to Adam it's also similar to what Plato would say was the kind of concept of the forms and things like this but we've discussed that and we've taken a look at from there how the self emerges as an infant the NFS the story of who I am it emerges through this kind of mirror stage and this Divine mirror that

we're connected to because you see we in and of ourselves are a mirror to the Divine you know the famous Hadith we took a look at and how this ego then is created in this configuration this identity emerges which is us and and ultimately we are to kind of shed this or anytime we try this shatters it's it's it's in a sense getting through ego Annihilation through

FNA getting closer to the real to alh to Allah and so we took a look at that in last week's session today I want to explore wanting see you know the the NS the ego it has wanting with a capital W if you like this is the ground of Desire why does it you know what is this what we're riddled with this throughout

our entire existence truly in an insatiable sense and it is often the source of much of our our angst our anxiety and our suffering so what is this why is this that's what I want to take a look at really and take a look at some of the verses of the Quran and also explore some psychological um underpinnings that we have in contemporary

psychoanalysis but also looking at through the Arts poetry because you know the the Pinnacle of expression that we have you know he what is one of the in that taught insan expression and in a way insan himself is a manifestation of the Divine expression

so so taking a look at themes like this really that you know this what is saying that

weally you know so many desires thousands countless such that each one of those desires was worth an entire life like it would you could sacrifice yourself over it so many of my desires were

manifested but still so few the the lack of satiety the lack of being fulfilled and because this will really give us an understanding of this journey today and here's another one which Lesson by John Elia which really will tie in to the core of what we're taking a look at wanting the ground of Desire and I'd like us to keep this

poem in our working memories today that that I that oh alas that desire we didn't even

exist that damn that life which never happened which never was and just keep that in your mind today because it is it is this desire that we're going to take a look at and we've taken a look at this and we're going to come back to that this whole thing of object the cause of desire that's something we'll come back to later on today we're going to circle back to that

where does this desire come from two key terms ALU beingness now our being is only there because Allah is the ground of being Allah is Allah is true wujud you see we have wujud and we covered this last week that it's a beautiful word in English that human being because it really encapsulates the

the dichotomous nature The Human Side and the being side Serano and espanol but so it has this whole you know this this beauty to it that human being and this being so okay human part is here what what is this being it is the fundamental primordial the ontological fundamental of reality but the true being is Allah's being

and we've covered this our being we do exist it is a reality but simultaneously there's an element of non-existence to us this Adam because we are like an emergent property we are like the reflection that appears and exists in the mirror it both exists and simultaneously does not exist you see because the the reflection is there and you know it's there but you know it's also not

you because you're over here so does it exist does it not exist so that is like us you know the kind of wave in the ocean it exists the ripples in the lake but what are they do they exist Does The Wave exist there's no particular a wave doesn't in and of it self exist it's just a formation a pattern so we have wud but we have our wujud compared to Allah's wujud is

non-existent but to us it's 100% existing in a way as a poor approximation it's like understanding a video game you see the be being within the game exists but in this world it doesn't really exist I mean it has a kind of existence well it's a game you know I've got it on my PC let's say now but within the configuration it is as real as real can be and thus Allah

says no know that this world the life of this world it is a game it's a configuration love it's a distraction from the real Al so okay keeping that in mind now this Wu our sense of being because there is a sense of Adam to it

avoid that is what gives rise to this this lacking you know because we lack in comparison because our being lacks this lacking this void this emptiness one could personify it through the uh narrativize it through the um through the

Hadith often cited inid when the Shan sees Adam and says he kicks him and you know kind of like knocks at him and kicks him and says he he's he thinks what's so special about this creature and cuz he realized izes this is some being he says in there's an emptiness avoid a lacking it's a holess this symbolic holess this void

this lacking is the source the ground of our wanting it is of our desire that then desire will become incarnate it will become the object it locks its attention onto this in psychoanalysis the object betti and we'll come back to that a little later on in leanian psychoanalysis it's termed that so but this is the ground from where it's why is it happening it's happening because of this what does it mean it means that we

have this as a human condition we can never get over it you will never just fulfill your desire and you know this uh hilarious but so true quote by Oscar wild that there are only two tragedies in life one is not getting what you want and the other is getting it you see because in life the moment you get something all that happens is you no longer desire it

because the desire was the wanting it was not the object of desire in this case whatever it may be like let's say a person wanted the latest phone or they wanted a particular car they wanted a particular job they wanted a particular person they wanted something that it gets locked into as the target the goal the object of the desire the wanting the thing that the object of that wanting the moment it becomes fully

locked in you lose interest you know that person who's dying for this if only I had this job my life would be so different they get it within one year sure you know they they may say yes I'm grateful but everything has um oh but what about that job oh but the person who desires a person thinks you know if I was oh my God if if if I had this person obsessed

with her obsessed with him if I was married to them nonbinary them gender fluid huh so yeah be so if I was married to them in the plural sense covering both the all that would happen and when they are all of a sudden that that person that thing sure they still may like it love it appreciate it but not in the same way

anymore and it's not a problem with the person or the thing or the status or the career or the job it is a reflection of our being which has a lack it has this holess it has a wanting an Adam which wants to be filled it wants and that is what it keeps us in this motion throughout our lifetimes in this constant search when we're getting something we want

something else the moment you get it and one of the tricks to that may be that kind of maintaining this balance almost and one could say that there is a beauty in how Jenna in the Quran is then posited and postured as this delayed Gra gratification because the thing that is Out Of Reach remains a successful object of Desire an

object that it remains successful as a Target to keep you locked the moment you obtain it ah you know it's like what what what what was so about this anyway and that is so often seen in like I said in all kinds of items you know you could people who are crazy about the latest iPhone people who are crazy about there's nothing special about it the moment they have it no people who are crazy about relationships you know the it's this Larger than Life pull towards something

the moment as long as it remains Out Of Reach it remains powerful as a pull the moment you obtain it it loses it's and and that's fascinating and that's something we could explore and you know there in relationships the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasam said that's fascinating you know from a psych psychology perspective psychologizing that that the prophet said to visit with a gap to keep an absence this

and you will continue to increase in love but the moment there's just this wud it dissipates you know it's it's like fragrance you try to capture it it's gone Allah and and there is a wisdom a wisdom in that now this is why I was saying that this po

of that desire that never truly existed that we often and one of the ways to combat because this can lead to immense anxiety as well and you see that here inah in verse 24

does insan get Allah says this configuration that you have this belongs to Allah the real is Allah what is to come after this belongs to Allah does insan ever get this desire incarnate does he get it

no it is but a spiral a downwards a rabbit hole that we find ourselves in and here we see it again in verse 14 this is from the root of Amani is the plural this Desiring there are other words for Desiring as well in Arabic but this particular

one and this wanting these desires they deceived you they tricked they misled you Allah until the decision or the matter or Allah's command came and that could be that you know could be in a particular

situation it manifesting it could also be until the command came for you to move on from this world you know the great deception itself incarnate it deceived you about Allah Allah our true Bond our reality with the real Al

deceived us and Al could refer to the Shan the negativity the deception incarnate itself it could refer to the deceptive nature of the configuration of this D of Affairs of matters anything from in all layers all levels of this strata

Al something to think about and there is a Hadith the uh which is in sahkari and in Muslim and it's a famous Hadith from uh anas Bin Malik and it's fascinating that anas bin Malik transmits a few of these the of Hadith dealing with this

nature of discussion this whole desires and insan the deception and how humans are misled this is a beautiful Hadith which truly captures this object this wanting the Hadith says that you know if the son of Adam if if God's person a man or a woman was to have a valley of gold

an entire Valley another he would just wish that he had another you see because the moment we lock in something to our desire so long as it remains with a it's it's it's kind of there but Out Of Reach if it's entirely Out Of Reach right we're working towards it but

if we're not even working towards it it could just lead to sheer frust frustration if it becomes too easily if it becomes accessed then we lose interest in it and we just want another we want the target become something else the this Hadith saying even if it was a a valley full of gold you say yeah you know if I had a valley full of gold yeah Allah what I would do and the moment we get it we say Ya Allah if only I had

two it is so true this F of insan right so right so the this just reflect on that you know there's a in relation to that and the antidote to this by the way is that the prophet taught us it is contentment where we where we

bring a we curb our were wanting we we still have a sense of wanting we can't escape that but we learn you see you can you can try to tip the balance through Shar gratitude and that Allah you know I still have so much I'm so grateful to Allah and Allah loves that so much this gratitude that his own name he's taken upon himself as the

Grateful so you are this mirror to the Divine in that and by mirroring the Divine you combat that lacking because remember our lacking emerges our wanting this object emerges from the Adam from our being which has an them sense to it but the moment you mirror the Divine his names on

Earth it it it curbs it constrains it handles that lacking so okay that is so this Hadith that we saw here it really is a fascinating one it's in in and Muslim by you know

um he would only wish that he had another and there's a beautiful Story by roomi Manana jalaludin where he tells of a uh a person who is he's standing you know he's he's bewildered confused on this street and he's really upset and you know in you know you look at somebody they're in a state of like just disarray and so bewildered and stressed and so

somebody approaches him and says well um what is what is you know what is going on here and and he says well I lost a din a gold piece I'm so stressed and and this person is on route to the Masjid and he thinks yeah you know what let's do a good deed Let's help you know this person so and whoever you know the Hadith whoever eases the suffering or anxiety of a person of Allah

Allah eases their anxiety so this person says you know what have this so M mentions that this person is so he's like he gives it to him and he goes and he goes off to the Masjid he prays he comes back he sees the person still standing where he was in a state of you know of stress

stress Allah you know in Arabic they call it and you could call it as well but this sees him in this and it's the same word wi comes from so sees him in this state of stress and says to him that yeah you know I thought what's going on I thought you lost a DIN and I gave you a din what are you stressed about now he says yeah but you know if I had my first one I'd now have

two Allah Allah and this goes back to our lesson which you know in Islamic psychology which we were which we've covered about most of of our suffering is in within the imaginary realm that most of our anxieties they they exist in there you know it's when remember the imaginary the symbolic and the real and most of our suffering is in there when Mark

Twain said that I I've been through many things in life I've been through many uh catastrophes in life some of which actually Happ happened most of our suffering remains in the within that realm so it's to really understand that and I want us to with that in mind take a look at another Hadith so with uh we've got this and this too is um now this one's narrated by Abdullah Mas I believe it's the famous Hadith in um a

reference to is Inari and it's in other books as well that can be another term for desire but it carries a more positive con connotation linked with hope as Oppo am man seems to be more you know that that kind of sheer desire coming from the inner ego can have a positive connotation because you know this this wanting this ground of being that we you know this desire it ironically keeps us

going because you don't want to completely lose all desires in this world because that's not the because insan has been created the ideal way is with a balance you know you don't and the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam exemplifying that in the Hadith that what has been made beloved to him from this world certain things and how he takes you know this is a blessing from Allah and for and he mentioned amongst that uh for men women it's been it's the highest form of

blessing on Earth and then other things as well so it is not about a kind of her you know like becoming a Hermit hermeticism or a kind of um monasticism or anything like that in Islam it doesn't exist so is the kind of positive spin on desires because it's hope and this Hadith and I guess it it kind of goes better with the

wording you know so this famous Hadith and I'll take us through it that abdah said uh um that the prophet sallallah alaihi wasallam drew a with a stick in the sand a square and then he created this line emerging from it and then he made these lines either side of that which was inside the square and this is in a Hadith by the way and the prophet said the square which encapsulates is

this person's entire existence the immortality that this is death and life this is all it is for this person and it's completely encapsulated us it says you know these lines either side the blue line that you're seeing inside is insan the green is our mortality that we are surrounded by this you know the reality of us being of of us having no Escape except

through death so the green is death it is which surrounds us and encapsulates us the purple that you see the these are events trials tribulations catastrophes tragedies incidents ordeals that that's what they are the prophet said in theith that's what they are they are things that are these happenings but in a negtive like in a not it's not about negative but in a

tense sense tension you know if this one missed him that one got him if that one missed him this one got got him you know as John is saying so and then the Hadith goes on to highlight because it mentions that these like illnesses calamities uh catastrophes and the Hadith goes on to highlight that that

this part that you're seeing coming out the red this is his desires and hopes they far exceed his or her mortality our death that but that is the nature of insan and it's not to what we don't want to do is just look down upon these things it's not these things they assist us in this dun you know it keeps this drive going this Pleasure Principle that we have is it helps us strive but we just have to

remember to kind of maintain this balance to realize not to become you know not to drown ourselves in it because it has it will always lack the moment we obtain it and lock it in it will get bored of it it want something else and that is the object as Lan termed it and it's the one thing he asked not to translate all so it just means the kind of object of the small a because the big a isra is the big other in psychoanalysis and I'll speak about that in another psychology session Islamic psychology with us but

coming back to and and here is a an example of this manifesting you know because it comes back to that being and when you get something how we lose interest in it that he says says johnia saying this that my own sentiments my emotions are what are criticizing me now is the same

word remember the verse in Surah we covered that uh where we took a look at it where it said um that it is the same uh same verb all together will insan get what he desires like that the truth is we can't we can't get it and he says

here that desire is losing its value you know this poem encapsulates and instantiates an example of OB wanting the ground of Desire where desire emerges from this lacking this Adam in's terms so I'm combining this for us of and kind of synthesizing taking M's Legacy and kind of synthesizing it with our way of understanding the psyche

today through psychology and its diverse uh branches like psychoanalysis and leanian psychoanalysis so you have this object this this void that can never be fulfilled it is the wanting itself and he says that desire is lo losing its value that my own emotions are criticizing

me says look at this woman who would complain about not you know that I'm not with her [Laughter] hiia he says that that woman that would complain that I wasn't there for her in my presence is now asleep so this a a kind of you know a satire um a kind of tongue and cheek with what he's saying it's so

beautifully expressed it truly captures the psychology of this of the between this kind of this kind of holess this uh void that we have for the wanting the object I think it's so beautifully captures that this poem of uh Junia I think very few things have captured it so epically to to kind of encapsulate it and then give an example of it that he's saying that you know this so in many Rel relationships you can't get

enough of the other you know the person because there's that you see going back to the Hadith the way to maintain the relationship is with that it's kind of like you know it's kind of like that anti-lock breake system it doesn't fully stop and it doesn't keep moving either there's this pause you know move pause move so there's this arms length feature created in the desire that you the Hadith says that that you see that you know distance uh what is it what's the saying in English that distance makes the heart grunder

that there is some Gap some attaining some distance some attaining and the Hadith mentions that now you combine that with with a kind of satisfaction of the sorry not a satisfaction a contentment and you you in you kind of handle it by mirroring shukar gratitude a mirror to the Divine now here so in relationships people will this is a beautiful example that people will be like oh you know this so they can't get enough of the person especially when they don't the

person isn't there they'll be like oh phoning texting oh I could God you know if only oh my God you know if you were here now i' do this this or did that or I Can't Get Enough the longing you know Allah Allah is truly knowing of our reality so this insan that is so much like this and in in the words of John Elia he's he's he's manifesting that on

the tongue on the speech of the woman who wanted to be with him so much is you know you're not here why are you not here where are you why don't you come back why didn't you you know this uh shik is to complain The Melancholy the suffering of of the separation and he says that

look that my emotion is criticizing me desire is losing its value the object eyes moving on that the one who would complain incessantly about not being here about

Jia and now that I'm here is fast asleep as in what he's trying to say is is in you know all of that Babi that excitement is gone you know so I I thought that so beautifully um one captured by jilia and then instantiated and this brings back that gb's uh famous uh line of

and this goes back to in psychoanalysis the a you have in the middle is the OB and this what is what Lan in lenan psychoanalysis has mentioned that when you put the three uh modes of Dimensions or the orders the imaginary order which we can call the the symbolic and for insan in our human being sense that there is this Center which is lacking this void or this a as I would say or thisam which results in this wanting and he called it

a was to as in b he meant the non- capital letter A because the capital letter A was the other and that's to do with the symbolic order and can be with the imaginary as well and we'll come back to that in another that is this sense of the other the big other in Psychology in psychoanalysis leanian psychoanalysis is the you know the The Horizon to which we theatrically perform in our day-to-day lives this kind of being watched being seen being

on a stage being a main character being you know this uh ego ideal this kind of this big other that we it is kind of it is um Inseparable from our psyche and our existence within this D it's Inseparable and this is why it really makes issues like [Music] um and and things like that very complex

issues they're not as simple as you know some people think even if we deem them sometimes some behavior in them as religion improper so it is not you know for somebody to to ask at a grave or at a shrine is not how Islam teaches us that we ask Allah but it is in it is an incredibly complex issue from a Ian psychoanalytic perspective because human beings cannot be distinguished from the symbolic other and it's only because people don't

understand psychology they don't understand how that works that they reduce it in this strict binary sense to you know oh this is shik and I'm not saying it may be sh in nature but when being done by Muslims it is not taking them out of the fold of Islam even if it is a kufur in and of itself so not every kufur results because it's an ignorance we don't call the Muslims kafir but the action itself is deemed an act of kufur but but there

are layers and we'll cover this in an Islamic psychology session as well that there are layers between shik you know there degrees this this or I would say not even these Dimensions that there is there is kufur there is J now these May overlap so Christians for example by the quranic Paradigm are not referred to as mush even though they clearly do shik with Jesus but in Islam we don't refer to the Quran doesn't anyway the Quran clearly refers to Christians

as it refers to them Allah says they are but they are not the so there is a whole dialogue to be unpacked here that what what is shik why is shik absolutely unforgivable what is kufur somebody could say something do something which is kufur and then what is Jal and Jal May permeate all of these and it may be a category in of itself and that's something very uh from a psychoanalytical perspective it's

incredibly complex because human beings our psyche it exists in these orders it exists in the imaginary and the symbolic order much of our world is psychosocial more than we actually think so you know how much we all recognize our world is psychosocial and our world Taps into the symbolic order it Taps into culture for example it Taps into language how does language exist how do rules exist in society rituals all of these are part of the symbolic order which then Taps into the

imaginary the world which is created within and it takes up much more of our world than we think so for example what we value what are values they just exist in there what are likes they exist in there what is my story myself my ego me it exists only in here you know the way I see the world the voices in my head they are only exist in my to me me as a story exists

there you know what is going on in the world as it now what is going on in the world does tie in with the symbolic psychos social it does tie in with people I'm not saying this is not to say that nothing exists out there and it's only no but it's like saying you see it's it's a bit like saying that you know you take a computer game or you take a computer not even a game you take a computer uh an operating kind of system so you take Microsoft Word and

Microsoft Office and files and spreadsheets and you know documents and uh I don't know photographs and different things now when you reduce the the kind of software down to its fundamentals it's operating on just ones and zeros but to you here it doesn't look like that it looks like oh no you know here is my uh PC folder here are my documents folder it's a yellow kind of Manila

colored uh something that looks like a folder as well you know I click on it I can see documents I can see spreadsheets I can see graphs but that's the manifestation of it but in its true Essence it is reduced to just coding so we know that although we can't we don't feel it like if you didn't know that you wouldn't feel it to be true so similarly most of our world is it's part of the imaginary order and the symbolic order now that's not to say

things aren't there people are there but so much of what we do is part of that that we can't it's difficult for us to differentiate at times for most people it's very difficult to differentiate people you know even the sense of being the fact that people are not their thoughts for many people they can't differentiate that that you are not your thoughts that you are you your thoughts or are you the one having the thoughts and listening to them that is the more true sense of your being

so just to put that back into perspective perspective this is how Lan had kind of the object uh just coming back to that so he had differentiated between the the the uh as we would say in Spanish OT with an O but in French because he was French um it was the a so the capital A the big other and we'll speak about that the symbolic or the other and the reason I was I digressed there was to highlight that such issues of the symbolic other are very complex and people sometimes reduce them to a Simplicity of saying

well this is shik this person is a mushrik it's not true even if what they're doing is wrong I'm I am saying look that that practice is wrong and it is kufur but it's not how these certain people are describing it as this person is now a mush no because they are engaging the symbolic other the big other and that is Inseparable as a human entity and we'll come back to that in another future session so this is how the so the small a was for the uh so you've got the caps lock and you've got the the small letter A which was for

object the object of this desire which is um what we've been speaking about today wanting so this is really to bring in to to kind of wrap that up you understand now why Oscar wild was saying that there are only two tragedies in life one is not getting what you want and the other is getting it because once you get it you you just want something else it's just another tragedy so something which you know you loved so much now you lose value for it you know as he said you

know so this going back back to joia's kind of poem there so people this concludes really um and this was why I felt this was such a uh powerful uh poem for us today this it really does cover it um that

that because today we've been speaking about the Adam something that doesn't exist but ironically it kind of manifests with all these other things going on so things can do that you know things which exist and don't exist like the number zero it exists and doesn't exist but its existence can give structure to so many other entities so similarly this Adam this holess this void this lacking gives rise to this sh to this to this

these and it didn't truly exist wow so that kind of sums up today's session on Islam psychology looking at object wanting as the ground of Desire this Tam that we have Tam and why it it is inescapable but it's not all bad news it has a positive side to it that it keeps us going this honic

treadmill can be um you know it can be terrorizing and traumatizing but it can also be used with balance if used with a sense of contentment and shukar with this balance it can maintain a very healthy lifestyle and so I want to share that with us and take a look in the process at some uh where this has been uh expressed in poetry where it's been expressed by jelia by galib where it's been expressed throughout literature Lan psychoanalysis where we see this clearly

um you know standing out in the Quran in these verses um these kind of verses and the where the Prophet says or um really instantiated in the ofik in that if we had a valley we would just you know desire to have another because the moment we have it we move on to another object of desire and the Hadith teaching one way of not just becoming um

you know not not becoming crushed with this but rather maintaining a balance and that could be done through and it could be done through and it's and it's amazing that the prophet said that it is an non perishing treasure and in some ways because it's linked to the Divine shukar it's it's reflecting that mirror to the Divine and Allah in thei says Allah that the true treasure the K

was Allah and is a k that mirrors the K of the Divine so you know just really wrapping that up and coming full full circle with that almost as you could see in the leanian sense coming full circle to to this OB Allah grant us all ease and make you know this journey of our existence I mean a beautiful one full of you know unveiling Mysteries Wonder

amazement contentment gratitude love compassion and Adventure am mean so that's today's um session I'm going to I'll share the um the link if some of you want to um um share some thoughts but other than that then that was what today's session was about somebody mentioned about atoms and that's true and that's something which comes back into our

ouria our non beinging you know not our existence and non-existence that material matter only appears to us because of the formation you know it is 99.9% empty space non-existence but it doesn't appear that way to us you know these atoms are a atomic level have this barrier they this they repel because of the electron the kind of field it creates through this kind of force field but it's a force field it's not actually

matter in the sense but then that gives rise to molecules compounds matter material and so when as you get you know as you keep kind of peeling away or removing the veils Kash as you keep doing Kash because we truly this tradition of ours you know traditional Islam It Is Anchored In This tradition of Kash M of you know unveiling these mysteries of removing

the veil of this configuration into the realm right Allah bless you all right um let me share the link let's see somebody's saying look could I sit

um back in the library in time to come come I'm sure I will right right so an atom is so strong even splitting one is the atomic bomb yeah so the atom you see it's it's not the atom itself so it's crazy because you'll have the four fundamental forces you know the you're going to have gravity but you'll have the electromagnetic force and then you have the strong nuclear force and the

weak nuclear force now the weak nuclear force allows for Decay and kind of radiation essentially but the strong nuclear force is what holds atoms together you know holds it glues this so strong and and the ratio between them of being 100 to one and so it is that powerful that when we split the atom that Force erupts I mean who would think that such

power was hidden in plain sight Allah we truly haven't understood this this configuration right so ah yeah you know yes look you know we're on a journey right you see this longing for certain things that you're longing

for it is just to void the you have within yourself that we all have you know we have to learn to to understand ourselves and to keep moving through this journey of ours you know there was years ago uh for many years there was this Monday night with Muti and that had an evolution of itself you know interesting as it was and some parts let's say were informative

you know some hopefully were very helpful some proud moments and some maybe not so proud some may be in hindsight embarrassing but such is life you know such is this dun you know such as is us as people such as our story of the ego of the nafs of the self and yeah and so so many years later here I am you know and I'm now in my mid-40s so when I began that I was still

in my 30s you know and so I think I began it in 2017 or something and it's now 2024 you know a lot of things have happened and a lot of my own journey of self has been on such a journey that I feel as if at least two at least two decades I feel have passed this is how I feel that my kind of apprehension of time so yeah so that's how that

um right is um all right right so there you go right now um right okay I'm going to share the [Music] link uh let me share the link

again there you go right so h finally caught you online muy the what's this uh the UK time and the Middle East don't go together it's 4:00 A.M in the morning Allah Allah well you know as they say you know it's it's 1:00 a.m.

somewhere ah all right so let me I've shared the link and if you want to if you have any questions I'll right we've got Theo modum tho sorry how are you doing Sak you're WR

yeahum hi I was I was I was thinking about Muti when when will you uh you know uh write your Memoirs God you know that would be interesting and the and there's so much that I could just never put in there since uh since 2017 you said that you started no that was no that was Monday nights with Muti I began Monday nights when they said that was in you know what it was it's

fascinating the journey that there it began I think originally um it began I think it was something like uh 2009 or something it began originally as a radio show which I radio show yeah I used to do in the Midlands here in Birmingham UK I began this radio show and I named it Monday nights with Muti because it was on a Monday night and it was it was an Islamic station it was U Unity FM and so and I did that for a little

while and then I stopped that and then I started the the radio show again I think it may have been 2010 2011 something like that and I did a fi version called Friday night F so I would kind of go over some fi works and books and I would take live Q&A on the radio uh show and you know on the radio station Unity FM and then what happened is they they had some break again so I can't remember I must have left it for a little while and then I resumed it again I think it must have

been 2012 2013 that kind of time but this time the slot they gave me was once again a Monday and and I it was a Monday evening slot I think I I think I used to have the 8:00 P.M slot and and this time I wanted to do I was doing a more open discussion on relationships questions fwa it wasn't I wasn't going you know with Friday night F I was just going through I was going through actually a textbook at one time called the and I was just taking questions here it was kind of more opened up the kind

of you know opened up the floor to any questions I would have theme I was uh taking a look at there were certain themes there was one called relationships unraveled so I would look at just kind of angles and permutations of relationship Dynamics and I would just discuss them and have people call in and and it was kind of a bit a bit of miscellaneous but it had a theme to it and and that I then called once again based on my previous many years ago show called Monday nights with Muti because it was a you know it was a radio show it was about 8:00 p.m.

it was on Monday nights so that ran for about I think it was about a year two years or something like that so that stopped now when that stopped many several years later Facebook live had so in between I was just doing some live classes actual classes so I taught um in here in Birmingham I taught we did fi once again we did the ashma Malik we did uh the uh um foundations of Islam by called the Y these are old courses they're probably about 10 11 years old

now they're on YouTube the audio yes on you uh then I did a s a brief s by um uh that wasis Al Maliki and then I did uh um the history of Lalo which is also on YouTube and so I I did then some Hadith and so as the years were passing by I started doing some Hadith courses we did and a few things here and there and uh I would have some live Q&A just in person and at that time I think Facebook had began its live streams I think it was

2016 but it hadn't rolled it out yet so you couldn't get it unless you were already Facebook chose you you couldn't just opt for it so so and I think in 2017 they rolled it out for everyone so you know then it's the the nobodies like me were like okay let's do so I just clicked live and I did a live stream and people came on and I started you know answering questions talking and then I did it again and again and and then people said you should do it weekly we look forward to it so I ended up doing it on Monday nights and because it was a Monday nights I just resorted back to

the old radio show name Monday nights with and so this kind of just continued until for many years until uh I stopped it and then when I stopped it I thought Halas you know enough of this because I realized that what that had done you know there's a a cost benefit so there's a benefit but then there's a cost and the cost was that you know along the journey I think I had um I think I'd allowed myself to become hijacked by

entertainment and I didn't really and that the cost of that was that it it had jeopardized at least a you know to a portion to what portion is subjective but it had jeopardized and compromised the the Target and goal of what I was trying to do in the beginning so and and I'm sure along the way you know we had many laughs and we had you know there was a lot of laughter and there was a lot of fun but it did compromise my initial journey to a

certain extent so yeah so from that I went to the meaning with Mal and then from there I did start T which I will go back to but for now I thought you know with this mystical I really because I found myself on this journey for you know know better part of a year really looking into all of this uh this Islamic psychology I thought well this is fascinating so this is a summary of events the Allah I'll be sharing it with you with a glass of I think coca I cocaa or it is the SEC sauce I don't know say

that again sorry is it is it is a yeah yeah a glass of soda Toba Toba no no definitely not Coca-Cola I've boycotted uh Coke you know I I've boycotted that we just have to resort to other even to to be honest I've actually I do you know generally I've quit a lot of um you know these just kind of fizzy drinks and all of this I've quit a lot of this I I just I resort to just drinking you know like I just get loads of those bottled waters and just but today none of them were

were cold and I thought you know today was exceptionally in the UK was very warm today exceptionally warm and so I thought Cho have a drink why not so right interesting you know you uh you know you know about about about the M Night with Muti you know you were you were talking about the cost for me the benefit you have to stress I have to stress about the the benefit because it kind of had people you know being free

yeah about expressing their their belief yeah because you know uh internet uh uh people were were bullying people to think other were having you know different opinion about a same same thing uh a top that is true yeah and yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah you he helped remove the the shule about for many people yeah you just today I was seeing something online uh as in somebody shared it on a

group and it was about uh they were highlighting that um you know this age of Aisha thing again there's some live stream um you know there's that gameer who is now Muslim I I believe he's Muslim unless I'm getting it wrong sneo or yeah sneo yeah sneo yeah so I think he's Muslim Now isn't he yeah so so there was something that somebody was sharing about his discussion on the age of Aisha and something like this and I'm not sure what his position or not even whether his position matters is

obviously just embraced Islam but I mean what he's teaching or what he's allowing people to discuss on his show because maybe he has a I'm sure he has a big following now but this age of Aisha and and people were sharing the comments on the group uh on this group that I you know just some of the comments from there and I I just felt to myself that this is so um you know absurd like the the the way this has been hijacked from Muslims this discussion that

somehow you know this age of Aisha be this being this little girl which clearly the evidences show that that was not the case clearly so many yeah I mean so many evidences how can people not take a holistic View and even if even if somebody felt sahil bukari was this ultimate around which you know they're not prepared to so most Muslims throughout the entirety of Islam have always

considered and means that even that they are good enough to go by that's a better definition good enough they are not 100% conclusive nobody generally speaking through our tradition believe believed in the nature there were one or two odd individuals that did believe in a nature

of but it is rationally defied you know it's rationally flawed like you couldn't I mean for me to say that you know I heard from such and such you heard from such and such you heard from over Generations like let's just say for example if you were to say if you were to transmit something from your great-grandfather even now this is within the same family like I said you know my father said his father said that his grandfather one day or his so my great-grandfather you know my great great grandfather let's say yeah one day

said this thing imagine verbatim exactly I keep this within my family so it's not even strangers it's within my own family I say you know my father said that my grandfather said that my great-grandfather said that my great great-grandfather one day whilst visiting this place made this statement like this now the chances that some words here or there or that or there's a chance that I get this wrong it's clear you know self-evident knowledge

like this this should not even be a debatable that the epistemology for that just clearly shows that there must be a margin so you could take it as good enough that you know what I believe it's valid because you know my dad and his dad and his dad all had great memories okay fine fine fine good enough but there is a margin to her that which is undeniable it's humanly undeniable and so now to so with the exception of a few people and I know within the copy

movement they kind of took this attitude as well some of them but it is really rationally flawed that you couldn't you know human beings don't accept these things and that you know that there's no way that you could have ever made a mistake ever that that that isn't you know that's not even Islam so yeah to take now these Hadith where even if you said that the r of bukari was good enough and you ignored the holistic data you ignored the circumstantial the kind of um you know the the the entire

narrative you ignored all of that and you almost had this very kind of tunnel vision on this one Hadith even then you would be weary if it was something that would would add if if it appeared insulting to the prophet you would be weary you know it's like uh Jalal in his he has this fascinating case study from Egypt in his day and age where uh there's two people having an argument in the marketplace and one of them he says um

you know to the other one he's cursing him he's insulting him and he says you you know what the hell what do you know you're just a shepherd and you know you're just a goat herder you just got goat and sheep what the hell do you know and and that person says well if I'm a Shepherd you know so what the prophet was a Shepherd now this statement of his was said in a Marketplace so this matter gets reported to the local authorities in his day and age now the local magistrate the Ki happened to be Maliki and malakis are obviously super harsh in defending the honor of Propet so so this person who

was getting bullied and who in defense said look so what you know you're calling me a Shepherd but the prophet was a Shepherd the Maliki grabbed him and he said forget about the other guy there's a chance that you're going to be in some very very serious punishment that could even reach capital punishment you could even in their day and age could have even been executed by the State now the person said well what what did I do and he said well you insulted the prophet and he said well I didn't insult the prophet I said but the prophet was a Shepherd which he was a shepherd and he said no because look

that person mentioned that in a negative context you're mentioning affirming the prophet in a context that is now negative so you are blaspheming against the prophet so you are now facing potential the death penalty now obviously sometimes malikia you know the malakis overdo it sometimes it it happens man it happens it's love it's love it's love it's love love it's coming from a place of love man don't wor he go don't worry just hug me hug it out and once we're hugging I'll

just I just and it's all love so now what happens says that well you know he they found out and then they kind of petition that this case be transferred to another who was and and then they do this whole thing and eventually the guy gets in trouble but he he gets off as in you know he he there's some trouble but he's not it's not too severe but then Jal writes his in his this incident but then he gives the ruling and he says that he says what the Mal said was right but we don't he says we

don't agree with the punishment being like that but we agree with the ruling he said that this person should never have brought the prophet's name into any narrative that is negative so um so so if somebody's insulting you for something or if this narrative is negative you don't bring the prophet's name into it out of love and honor for the prophet so today in this era uh of this you know this abominable phenomenon of pedophilia that we see especially in the western world right

now to bring the prophet's name in this context it is it is a blasphemy you know it is it is it is insulting to the honor of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasam and as Muslims we should never ever allow that and so it is a shame and then people double down you know and then they hijack this narrative this is somehow the bravado of Islam that we hahaha you know so what we did it and what yeah and they'll say things like aha but King Richard the so and so King James had a wife who was 10 years old there were an argument they said oh

no you know the you know the the kids but then were strong at at years they back then back then children were somehow they looked like 30 year olds when they were 8y old I mean you know this I don't know what I don't know these people clearly don't have a grasp of human history because if you read that that unfortunately due to things like uh uh uh sometimes a shortage of resource

people suffered more as they do still today in certain parts of the world where there's scarcity of water scarcity of uh you have to remember certain parts like Makkah were not fertile and even though was fertile and other places a lot of you know the Quran says that this Valley of mecah does not have any crops so the so so to somehow say that people back then were really healthy uh I mean depends what you mean by healthy but it doesn't they definitely didn't have seveny olds walking around looking like 25 year olds that definitely didn't

happen and a clear Hadith in sahkari you see and this is this really seals this is a door stopper that Omar comes to the prophet to participate in a battle in the Battle of uh is it he comes to participate and the prophet phet says to him and he says in the narration that I I was I think 14 at the 14 14 yeah 14 something like that he says and the prophet says to him you're too young go away and then he says he came back a few years later and the prophet said okay

now you can come but who did participate in the Battle of bad and AA and you could say well she was helping the wounded butar could have helped the wounded you know surely if if you're saying Aisha was a 9-year-old girl than a 14-year-old boy can do more you know good in carrying things and pulling people than a 9-year-old girl can do so it's because she at the time was 1920 by that time when happened and she wasn't 14 and if these 14y old were like

30-year old men back then thenar would have had no problem in being allowed to you know he was the son of you know great jeans and so there would have been no issue in him attending the battlefield even if it was to help but he was still deemed a child so yeah so that's I think that just really is a door stoer to the whole thing but yeah it is um you know it's it's f

pleasure speaking to you Allah bless you and speak to you again shum people always a pleasure to speak to him and he was back again and who do we have in the studio we have M arand let me just bring him up Allah Allah thank you very much giving me a chance to talk with you live Allah it's a pleasure where are you joining us from from California USA California s from

all right California V always such a cool sounds like always such a a cool place ah so all right so shukran for joining us talk to us what what's uh you know if you have some thoughts you'd like to share or or something you'd like to to uh to discuss yes well well I'm very I'm honored um to talk with you live and it's really appreciate it thank you very much um I know you talked about some of these uh uh is some of the your

topic about Ms and desires and Tam yeah and very I mean I I listen very carefully and I just want to know what are the relationships between na desire Tam and all so according to is in our blood also yeah that's a fascinating one yeah and also Mala is also Within because sure whatever we do yeah

documentations and everything so how are they related na Mala and I don't know what else is within our sure then the Naps the for example the um the all right so this is all really fascinating that what are these things these entities how do they what well we know there's an interplay of these things but how and right so well the NS would be well the way I would understand a lot of these things and and

I'll give a diversity of some views as I'm going along as well is that Consciousness is the ru that uh Consciousness you know for us that that we kind of tap into it is ultimately a you know the the Now by tapping into or transmitting this this kind of this interplay of this body with Consciousness what happens is from from infancy there is an individual story that

emerges this I Anna this subjectivity that emerges from this consciousness that we now have becomes the ego it is what we call the Naps so the Naps is my individual kind of story my ego my identity right this becomes the nvs which is a a result of me having consciousness of having R and having a body but as an infant I start to develop this this ego this Anna that I am something as well I exist okay what am I

because you would I guess you you would have animals that live but they wouldn't have this kind of story going on in their head they wouldn't have this that you know I am this this this is me who does this who will be doing this who will they don't they can't they don't have that they do have a consciousness of course depends how we mean Consciousness obviously conscious it's one of those tricky words it's so difficult to Define it's like saying love in English you know Allah that you

know uh that that so it's like love it becomes so difficult to Define you know you say well what is love is it care is it affection is it what and it's all of these things and it's something else as well which every one of us knows it but when we try to put it into words it keeps moving around and so Consciousness is like that as well so animals do have Consciousness plants have Consciousness to you know one could argue that this Consciousness all around us one could argue but there are there is a different type of Consciousness that

humans um tap into or that we exhibit which is very different to how animals have they they seem to have a very low level compared to us like we have this conscious where we can um you know where I have a story you have a story where we all we can reflect on ourselves we can think plan for the future we can and I suppose the part of that faculty that comes with solving problems that is the akal side the the kind of intellect that that is that facet now okay so this is

coming back to our the NFS that's been created there's some kind of it's a consequence of this material interplaying with Consciousness now I I don't agree with the fact that the brain produces Consciousness I I I disagree with that I feel that the brain somehow Taps into Consciousness that the human brain somehow so Consciousness is somehow out there and we tap into it but as a result we create this naps our own individual stories so there is now within this realm within

this dun within this uhum right uh within this configuration as some I like that word right there is there is something there is like forces at play now many forces are obviously there's physical forces like gravity and other things but there's also strange forces which we don't understand just as we don't understand Consciousness we don't understand the ru but we understand that the ru Consciousness is what's giving rise to us there is sometimes like this negative

force that is at play this negative Force interacts with our Consciousness and with our nerves the result of which it brings out a darker side of ours that personified we would call the shaan or the shtin and how exactly does it do it we don't know exactly how it does it but we know it does it and we know it's tied so deeply into our unconscious mind so we have our conscious mind which

is part of it so imagine you've got this Iceberg but what is under the ocean is the unconscious mind and that unconscious mind is connected with this like like the iceberg underneath is connected with this ocean so the that ocean is the collective unconscious how we all somehow have some connection it's how would say that that would be the that we're all connected in now so similarly the way there is this negative force that when it interacts

with our unconscious it brings out sometimes it allows us to bring uh it brings a negativity now the negativity could be Nega could be really evil thoughts it could be like you're having really horrible evil thoughts but it could also be that it plays on our human material self on our our animall likee side it exacerbates that so these like let's say this wanting that we have this lacking it kind of it tries to you

know it amplifies our needs you know like food this greed like you see so so some like let's say having a hunger is natural being hungry when you haven't eaten or being thirsty is natural it's a it's a blessing from Allah otherwise we we would die we would perish but this negativity if it amplifies it can turn hunger into greed which is a different you know what is greed it's a kind of hunger a literal and a metaphorical for things

so now coming back to with every negative there will be a positive just as in this D Allah has particles as anti- particles you know there there's always negative there's always positive there's matter there's antimatter you know there's protons antiprotons now you will have everything will have its opposite so there is this positive Angelic kind of amplification to our uh thoughts to our wishes to us sometimes having good you know Pious aspirations to sometimes having hope having as

uh inspiration you know even inspiration is from the word to inspire the spirit coming within you now toii he would say that look this dun according toi and many other great Scholars of Islam this dun is a Taj of a Dun between this Dunya and the world of pure Spirit pure R pure Consciousness he says that there is a world in between and that world which he calls the or he calls it this world is like

a manifestation of it it's like a hologram manifestation of it but in that world the the things that are happening are happening with a different coding it's like saying that imagine you've got a flat kind of like like a disc now or a device but this device it will play something like a 3D movie now the way it's encoded in here you're not going to find the actors and all of that in here you're going to find digital coding which looks nothing like the people so

says that in this he says is the what we today would say is the Deep unconscious he says that is the world we go when we dream he says in that world coding takes place that is the world of Mala that is the world of all these things we are connected to it because it is our unconscious mind that is connected to it in that world for example today you me May suddenly be getting more risk in that world risk may be like a particular

symbol a code but here it manifests as this payment comes through I get a new client you get a new business deal you get a new job you get a new this is the manifestation in this world but in it's not looking like that it's looking like it's a Divine decree may look like some kind of coding so angels are interacting with us there and the Angelic thing is causing this positive this good kind of almost like this battle between you know

because in our unconscious with us between something good and something bad Whispering that our inter interactions we may suddenly get hope one day you know you get a Eureka moment yes that could be the that could be the manifestation or the expression of an Angel Angelic encounter it could be you know in yian Psychology they say as Carl Yung said that people don't have ideas ideas have

people that so similarly what if these ideas these positive things one are manifestations of angels that are engaging whatever that means in that world now we in this world how do we understand this to some people people they might understand it at one level by saying well oh I have a physical creature let's say that is standing on one shoulder Whispering into my ear and one is bad and one is good some people might understand it like that some people might understand no

it's not on my shoulder it's in my head so inside my head I've got a a physical kind of like a like a ghostlike creature that is like a spirit and one is a good spirit that's an angel and one is a bad spirit and that's a devil and they might understand it like that this is personified you might you see nothing is to say like the Quran doesn't say these are necessarily um you know that an angel looks like a human or it looks like a creature this is our reading into it this is our imagination Computing it it could some could understand you know in

the T of in uh in man for example one of the interpretations given is that this could be forces he says like so you could get different kind of these like force fields like today in uh you have quantum physics but then you have Quantum field Theory which tries to reconcile between some of Relativity and quantum physics so what it says is you know before how we thought well you know let's say there's nothing and now there's this atom here there's this

electron or there's this nucleus and so so there's nothing and then there's this thing now in Quantum field Theory everything is Fields Fields exist so these fundamental Fields like Quark Fields uh you know electron Fields what however we want to understand them they exist right now in this field you get an excitation the the moment there is an excitation that manifests as a quark or it manifests as a particular you know subatomic

structure so the fields already exist now this is something that I know Dr Rupert sheldrake highlights as a he posits that what if angels are Angelic fields that they with that they man manifest as a you know it's like saying how in Quantum feels that when there's an excitation it manifests so in his book the physics of angels which is a really fascinating book by the way he says that what if uh and Dr ruper sheldrake at one point wanted to become Muslim it's a shame he didn't really he said uh he really wanted to become Muslim because he was so drawn to the

Mystic Sufi way of Islam he lived in India amongst Muslims for many years he's a great psychologist one of the greatest British psychologists we have right now um but he said that the reason he didn't in the end was because of Muslims like he felt that it was just too you know the too kind of judging and and everything so in the end he just kind of left it but um he he he still holds it very dear to him now and he is a Christian then so he just kind of resorted back to his Christian Heritage from Cambridge but the point is that this physical of angels this point of angels being Angelic

Fields so these are some theories on however we understand it it there is flexibility so the Quran allows people to use their imaginative uh faculties to understand things so for example there's a verse in the Quran um which says that uh when depicting hell and certain entities like trees or certain things in hell that um this particular tree it emerges in Hell

In so the the emergence of this tree this is a verse of the Quran is um right so the emergence of this tree is the way it's kind of appears is as though you can see many heads of demons SH now this is one of the most you know amazing verses speaking about imaginative faculties because the MU

here will write as and many others as well will write that you see nobody has so Allah is calling you here to understand this he's saying or the the the verse of the Quran is yeah but it mentions that the tree is like the heads of shtin but nobody has seen heads of shtin but the verse is calling you to use your imagination

it is not calling for a one: one fit ratio it is just calling you to use your imaginative faculty so it's a beautiful a powerful verse on showing the beauty of imagination so right so I I know it sounds um that's adding layers I'm adding layers of understandings and complexity because these topics are very um complex you know the more you get into them there's layers to truth you know there's um it I I suppose this you know the

deeper you want to get things get more complex in in unraveling simply put we are creatures who are animals you know we are insan is we arean we are this animal this kind of almost uh you know this what's you know what modern uh scientists will say the third chimpanzee we are something that looks a bit like H but we as Allah says there's something incredible about us that Allah has and we

are Allah has created us but then allowed us the potential to be so we kind of oscillate between this Angelic Expression A A A manifestation of the Divine names on Earth to becoming a manifestation of just horid bestial animalistic you know we can become worse than animals or we can become you know like angelical most in our and and this

potential only incern has so I don't know if that gives I hope that gives some guidance some clarity uh how these things are interplaying that there is this this shtin this negativity this which brings out this darker side of us now what is it we know that it somehow is involved at when you say it runs in our blood what that means is it works at an uncon ious level you see how does the blood work the blood is not part of your you know

it's part of the parasympathetic nervous system it works without you making it work you know we we don't we don't make breath work it just works for us the heart just pumps you know if it was left to us would' be dead it's not part of the conscious it's part of the unconscious system we have so the that this negativity works at the unconscious level with us just as blood Works unconsciously for us and it is inescapable that we can't escape

thoughts or you know as long as we live it will be there so as long as the blood flows we are alive you know the moment it stops flowing you know that's the the end of us so yeah this uh this fascinating relationship we have you know between Angels and Demons finding our place Allah how about

the yeah so El is this shaan personified now that's what he is he is this now how do we understand understand do we understand so there's many ways so in my T lesson that I have that's let's see it was um it was called Quran Quest I think it was the second class done um so it says I think verse 1 to 29 Al bakar so in that I go into a lot of detail about this so if people want to

watch that they can see you know the greater detail that I'm going into but in summary there's different ways of understanding this I'm not here to say what is right or wrong but I'm just saying there's different ways of looking at the world they're not necessarily wrong depending on how you're seeing the world so to some one way of looking is that um Shan is this creature this kind of anthropomorphized personified uh this this

individual that has been created in this particular way and that's an absolute valid way of reading the Quran reading the Islamic Sciences now and he somehow ties into each and every one of us he sends either a different shaan that's connected to him or he himself is connected to all of us so that's one way of looking at it another way of looking and in that I go through the different I go through I go through I mean I go through manyas in that but one of them

in the end is also man showing that you see and in that I show many interpretations that the m is going through he's not necessarily going with just this he's saying look one way of looking at it is like this one way of looking at it is like this so for example is he a fallen angel some people say El is an angel and he's a fallen angel you know Lucifer the Fallen which actually should be the Fallen star which people have mixed up with the Fallen Angel so many Muslims believe that El is an angel and he's an angel gone bad so this is actually many Muslims

believe this surprisingly you know and um I believe Imam noi says that it's the majority of Muslims believe this although I I don't person believe that but I'm just saying that but one could believe it actually I could believe it depending on how you look at this whole equation so that's one way and now even though the Quran says

that but IM noi and other people here sayin does not mean the Jin Jin Jin means the Unseen so they say he's not Jin or they say as in so and then so or some say Jin was a category of certain angels that were not these gin but they were Angels also called the Jin because the Jin meant the Unseen so now some

people some Muslims say no El was from the Jin ways so there used to be Jin on Earth and before insan and the Gin were good and bad and some Gin became so good that he became like a Wally amongst the Jin he became this really Pious Jin and then he you know Ma and he became so Pious and he he started to now pray amongst the angels and now he was although he wasn't from the Angels but he was this such a good Jin that he was from the most Pious

mu uh Jin from the you know so he used to be in the company of angels and then he got arrogant when he was asked to and this was his downfall so some people understand it like that some people understand that here Oran because in Arabic it meant this something Mash this thing that becomes turbulent this obstacle this barrier this that this was a negativity it is a k as one of the interpretations it was like a fe like something that brings out a

reaction this is then personified in the narrative and narrativized and presented as so that's one interpretation that we don't quite understand it but it's not what we it's not NE necessarily a person although it's fine to treat it like a person but it's not it's like saying if I treat my anger like a person you know oh I you know I I hate this anger but what is anger it's not a person but I say oh you know I had my I had these thoughts again today what are thoughts if I'm treating it like a

person yeah but that's but it's not that it necessarily is a person but to treat it like a person still works so one layer of the interpretation so like I said one interpretation is if was from the Angels one is he was from the shtin the Gin but he became a good very Pious wly Jin that and then he kind of rebelled against Allah one's interpretation is that it's more speaking about when Allah created creation he that there were these falce fields that interact and some bring out positivity

Allah has created them in a way when they will interact with the r you will be inspired and that is called the Mala and they will serve functions they will convey uh Revelation they will convey they will do different things they keep existence together reality together but it has its opposite which is negative but then you see because all force fields ultimately have one origin because there is a unification so in that sense one could say the Jin the sh were from the Mal that they were one in essence because the force fields in essence were

United before they split but then we were also part of these force field I mean look if you think about it even from the physics sense all of after the you know if you look at the big bang after it all of creation was a singularity and from this Singularity first of all the force field that's okay our force fields gravity electromagnetism strong nuclear force weak nuclear force these things emerge but even all of them at some point were just one everything you see today at some point was one in existence it was part of the singularity so you see it

doesn't matter how you see things different people will view things differently some of us are more left brain some of us are more right brain that's just how we see the world some of us will see the world through more metaphor you know we will be more right brained the the West today unfortunately is heavily left brained and it relies more on this kind of and unfortunately you know the the the dominating culture today which has been influenced by you see it's ironic because they think it's not influenced by the west but it's actually ironically influenced by the West even though

though um you know this whole um you know that there is this um this kind of revolt against the West so let's say you take something like the dogmatism of the copy movement uh or some of these dogmatist kind of very kind of dogmatic movements they in their apparent are very anti-west but as you break down they're actually emanating a lot of the the kind of um the attitudinal um ontology is coming from this Western kind of dogmatic way of

looking ironically that they meet similarly I'm not one could say well okay maybe you know it's just a human condition fair enough that's also an interpretation but the true Islamic like if you look in the Islamic tradition there is all this speak of uh all of these things in theas I mean look almost 800 years ago you know before him you have this whole um you know the Mystic alhani he has this whole Treatise which has recently been brought into print about uh being the the great lover

of God symbolically which is fascinating because you see one of the things that the great uh Mystics in Islam did in traditional Islam was they showed this poetic side because they were heavily you could tell these people were heavily right brained they weren't left-brained individuals heavily right brained so they they bring up this this love story because uh it's fascina it's a poetic expression really that what what is El's problem in the Islamic uh narrative his problem is his refusing to do

Saga in one way he's refusing to do SJ except only to God because remember he used to do SJ to God he refuses to do s that to anything other than God and he does not see in Adam that that Charisma that I would turn my sujud away from Allah and even loan it to Adam for a moment and in fact in hearing that Allah gives this permission

and invitation to Bow you know whether it's the forces of creation or powers or everything to bow to insan that Allah has put inan this capacity that all of nature will be and all these fields will be subdued to him he finds in that a a such a a visceral rejection that what is in this thing you know what is this insan it's nothing but a third chimpanzee you know what's so special

about him you know he looks at Adam says you know this this is what is this look at the power of fire now it's interesting because you know fire obviously is tied into forces and combustion and all of this but the the the fact that creation begins with even if we look at the big bang it's beginning with a sense of combustion you know that there's that it is the the the singularity begins with combustion this big bang this fire if you because what what is combustion in

its manifest form is fire for us obviously in speaking of combustion now he says see I am way more primordial than this thing you want me to turn my Saga away from you and bow to him but in this there was a Tak that is being shown so so so

uh he has this treaties about Shan being this you know this kind of great lover of God that's gone astray you know how this this and this is poetic obviously it's poetic I'm we're not saying that we don't say that generally but there's poetic license in saying that you know this this this is this this power gone astray this power of love but yeah so all of these ways of interpreting there's room for it it depends on how you see the world are you right are you right you know brained are you left brained how do you see the

world are you somebody more poetic which is right brained people they are more you know they see the world through lenses like they are uh they have a propensity towards poetry towards art towards metaphor towards symbolism then you have very left brain people who may appreciate poetry as well they may appreciate these things but they're not driven in that way they're not driven to the holistic they're more to the individual things very much what this data uh you know kind of crunching world

is all about it's about statistics it's about numbers it's about individuals it's about you know just crunching very kind of left brain centered so uh driven sorry so yeah so to me the all of these things are meaning that we can take away so whether we choose to take this one or that one is entirely uh it it's wherever a person finds them themselves right okay I don't know if I've just gone off this said been yapping away yeah well just

ifan or Jen in Mala if they all considered separate entities made of n one is made of and of dust or clay how does it now combining all together how does it so look let's take let's take get to our let's take our real world as an example let's not even take let's take something that is scientific and material to to to illustrate this yeah yeah let's take

this world and us as an example now this world is made of matter you know whether I look at this or I look at myself or this chair or this microphone or this screen it's all made of matter which is made of compounds you know molecules which is made of atoms MH nobody not a single person is going to deny this what I'm saying right now not a sane person anyway way it's going to deny that the world is made of atoms but then atoms are also made of subatomic

particles so an atom could be a different atom you know you could have hydrogen you could have different kind of atoms helium you could have uranium you could have different atoms you know atomic structures right so elements within the periodic table but you could break these down into its nucleus into protons into uh neutrons you could break them down into electrons you could break these things even further you could break them further into quarks now when you break the even an atom you take an atom right an atom which everything is

made up of atoms now then the atom will be made up of whether it's going to be an electron whether it's going to be a proton whatever it is but everything is made up of atoms every single thing MH now atoms are 99% empty space 99.9% do you know it's like saying that the nucleus within the atom is so small it's like saying that let's say I don't know like let's say you've got a forest somewhere whereever whichever Forest you want to choose and then you've got the solar

system the entire solar system is the atom and the the thing inside that actually exists is just like that Forest so how is it that these same you know protons these quarks are making these different things how is it the atoms here are making a different a different atom when you put quarks in a certain way they manifest as a different entity when you put them in a different way they manif I'm talking science now I'm talking things nobody that knows this would could deny it this is how our world is made it doesn't appear that way

to us you know this appears pretty solid but physics will tell us yes it appears solid because of the the the kind of reaction the force field that the electron has created in in the things so we can't go through it but there's things for example you could take neutrinos you take many things that actually go billions go through us every day every day they're massless they go through us every day you know you just type in neutrinos and see that they're going through us they're coming through the Earth every day we don't we don't realize it so I would say that look if

somebody said to you you are empty space 99% empty not the it may sound crazy to us but it depends what angle and level we're speaking from you see this is why when we say from Ani perspective we both exist and don't exist at the same time it sounds crazy to people some to some people but it depends what angle you're coming from the fact that everything is 99% not there it betrays our perception but then the

perception is a configuration it's a game it's a simulation that we're in so look how does it work how how does the coding work what you see what we're trying to do you and me are inside a video game let's say we're inside a video game this is our video game we're playing it you know we're going we're eating food we're on a mission we're doing things but we're trying to understand that how does the coding of the game work how is a game coded but the code coding will be

nothing like the game you see the coding looks nothing like what the game looks like the game looks like a game like I'm walking in the road I'm sitting in a car I'm driving a car it looks like this world I mean to an extent it's an artificial version but it's a game but the but in the game you and me are trying to figure out I wonder how the coding of this game works and we're thinking that the coding looks something like the game looks like but outside the game you and me know that the coding to the game looks nothing like the game it's just digits

and letters and it's coding so but you and me know that outside the game but inside the game we can't know that so this is what's happening people inside this configuration are thinking Angels demons they must work how we work because they it's like you and me inside the game trying to figure out the coding thinking the coding looks like the game but once we step outside of the game you and me know that a code looks nothing like the game itself it's say code it's written code

so that's how you see this world this world is but a configuration a game that it it's been coded divinely by Allah so it manifests in certain ways to us but the coding will not look like the actual configuration that is an you know a misassumptions work we're too busy thinking that they work the way our world works and that's where the mistake lies

the coding is not going to reflect the game it will give man it will it will give a manifestation to the game but it will not look anything like the game and if you looked at it you would not think it is the just as if you looked at coding you wouldn't think this is a computer game I mean unless you knew coding but it wouldn't look like the game it wouldn't look like you know cars and things and so yeah right so well this is a very good explanation but some Sometimes some of the imams they're making it more

complicated understanding it because of Hadi that one of I heard it from one of the J prayer say that if you don't get up for fer prayer Shan is gonna urinate in your mouth in in your mouth okay so okay how how you're going to explain that I mean does it say in the mouth I thought okay maybe maybe okay but I thought it says he ties a knot on your ear or something and you sleep that's fascinating because I okay does

it say he urinates in your mouth I don't remember that but I I remember one that he ties certain knots like on your listening like he ties but that's fascinating because you know why I found that um right somebody's saying uh search under yeah sure but the the knots are fascinating because you know when we fall asleep right so when we when we switch off into sleep our Consciousness switches off but it doesn't entirely switch off like you

don't you see there is a difference between being asleep unconscious and being unconscious like under anesthetics anesthesia for example there is an entirety of things that are Switched Off in the brain like when they're scanning they can see when you're asleep the brain is still active it's just active at a lesser to a lesser level and it has its own um way of acting so it kind of drops its waves and operates differently and then there's paradoxical Street when we go into REM where the brain acts like it's awake it kind of like it's you know

if you read the electroencephalograms this the it's called paradoxical so you know when when we dream uh the they call it REM rapid eye movement the eyes are moving although we're asleep uh in the cycle you know the Sleep Cycle so REM so you have stage one two 3 4 and then REM then it goes two three 4 REM 3 4 REM 3 four REM and then it carries on then you wake up so the uh sleep cycles these uh rhythms that we have they uh so what I was going to say is that the auditory you know the

ears actually remain connected to it's the one thing you have that does not disconnect so it's fascinating sound you know if a person is in a coma in a deep coma one way of bringing them back is talking to them so because the auditory faculties remain connected and it's fascinating you know even the shamans the great shamans will speak of how um Consciousness it always remains connected through sound

so it's fascinating that the Hadith then personifies that look you know that for a moment even your channel to this pure Consciousness that remains connected the shaan blocked it because you didn't wake up to hear the other you know in a way it's a beautiful expression to show that so but it's right as to the Shan literally urinating no I mean that's not how we understand I'm sure maybe some people literally understand things like that but that's a figurative you know it's

figurative symbolic speech it's it's not literal no no and I to be honest I don't remember it being like he um does it say somebody said he he maybe that he urinates in the ear but you know saying about the ear may make sense in the sense that I think because I I remember the Hadith about tying knots in the ear but even if there is you know there is a Hadith about urinating in the ear it's symbolic language for how that the channel is contaminated is being blocked despite it being a pure channel to

Consciousness because sound you know sound is fundamentally it's crazy because we are visual creatures and our optic nerve is like 25 times greater than our auditory nerves but the connection to the Divine will come often through sound it's even Revelation it comes through sound and it's you know even the prophets in the Hadith Inari said when Revelation came it came like the buzzing of a bee like that sound it it comes with this

vibrational there are vibrations and I know nowadays string theory is kind of out of fashion but even with that at a fundamental level being is vibrations frequency so sound is is much more powerful so I I find that metaphor symbol that the Shayan urinating or tying knots on what allows us to have sound as a as a as a very U captivating kind of image to to just show that look sometimes we get cut off but sleep you know if you're sleeping by the way you're not at fault if youve just slept

because you don't have control you know there is a Hadith where uh Ali he oversleeps for for Salah and the prophet comes and wakes him up and but he doesn't take him to task he just in fact the Hadith ends with them with it being said that look this isn't something we don't have control over you know if a person oversleeps it's not something like like don't go don't go hard on yourself for things like this sure try to wake up but it's not like don't be you know don't think uh oh my God you know this is something this isn't like you know it's

just human so if you wake up obviously we try to wake up but if you don't it's it's something just very human in the Hadith The Companions and the prophet when he's with them they allocate somebody to wake them up uh but then they all fall asleep and they miss subah and it's in the m IM Malik and and then the the the prophet says you know what let's get up let's go from this place and then they pray later on at this place and and and this is why the Hadith you know that that if

you you know if you forgot about your prayer or you fell asleep you know when you remember it just pray and there was a person in the time of the Prophet who and this is from the mus because a lot of uh Scholars traditionally didn't know where to put this Hadith that the companion came to the prophet and uh he uh I mean there's a longer story that his wife complains about him about certain things but you know I guess it's the psychology of men and women women she complains to the prophet about him and they're newly married and she has some you know she's a bit unhappy and and you you have you

know I suppose uh uh you know people have a Lover's Tiff let's say they have some disagreements but amongst the disagreements when she's complaining she says to the prophet that you know this is he does this and he does this and she says and he doesn't even wake up for Salah you know you get the religious one in there that he doesn't even wake up for f for Mal so she says well and he doesn't even wake up for you know it's like you get Sometimes some person is uh complaining about relationships I see it a lot you know because of uh the kind of uh life

coaching or the perspective sessions as I call them that I do so often people are going through relationship issues and they often going through divorce or um they're looking for separation and and maybe sometimes they work it out but so you know when you're dealing with people and you're kind of uh um kind of engaging with them they will often when they bring up issues so they'll say you know he's he's bad with let's say it's the woman often he's bad with this he's bad with this or men do this as well and but the women will often say well and he doesn't even pray you know they'll bring that in as

well you know like since you're a Muti you know let's bring the Islamic side in that you know and he doesn't even pray you know so in this Hadith the woman says to the prophet he doesn't even wake up for Salah for so the prophet calls him and this Hadith uh it's in several books it's in Abu daud and other books as well uh and so when the prophet calls him and he says and he deals with the issues and he says and what's this that he says do you not wake up for sub do you not wake up for Salah it's it's it's a very captivating Hadith by the way and I'll end this with this Hadith you know as a gem really to take away because

it's really baffling as well because it's one of those that you don't know where to put this Hadith and this is why the traditional Scholars were in uh they where where do we put this where does this go it's like a piece of the jigsaw but it doesn't seem to fit somewhere so the prophet says and what's this you know you don't wake up for prayer and his reply he says Allah he says uh and you can Google the words he says you know we are a people

said we are a people who we don't wake up till after sunrise and you know the messenger of Allah s you know you know it's something it's a it's a side of the Prophet that we unfortunately sometimes is eclipsed from us due to our own shortcomings a mercy for the world you know a true emblem of Love of divine love the prophet said he said he said he said you know when you wake up

pray that's it he didn't say who are these people what is your people what do you mean you are a people who wake up after you know how dare you the arrogance the you know don't you know and you know that's another thing we got to discuss someday you know this crazy uh fatawa not only is such and such a cfir if you have doubt in their kufur you're a cir you know this kind of uh cartisian

kufur right so I like that term actually cartisian kufur but the point so but this Hadith the prophet sallallah alai wasallam you know he said that's it he said you know what he said he said when you wake up pray and he went and and there's just something about the way in which the prophet engages people the ri the gentleness the kindness you know and there is this balance that has to be and I know today there is this claim to and and and I do

feel that there's you know value in definitely in much of what is being said as well that we shouldn't lose this balance of masculinity and femininity that there should be and I definitely agree you know that there is and especially in the west the it's become you know it's withering away there isn't an understanding sometimes of what should be masculine and and I hate the term toxic masculinity but but that said this balance you know the way the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam he he is the Heights The Summit the you know

the the Pinnacle of of EX of of an example for us and ever so masculine in the perfect ways but gentle were the gentleness see it's not about this kind of Super Macho thing it's not about this kind of oh you know and there's not you know nothing wrong with that if a person is naturally that way but also that there is this gentleness that that is very manly as well that having control as a leader and you see that in these kind

ofth that ri right M we've really it's been amazing it's been beautiful honestly speaking to you I'm so glad you came on and you brought up these topics and we discussed them um thank you very much M right so shukran and we'll catch up uh with you take care of yourself Allah keep you blessed and Bless the people Allah California what a place I've got to visit it sometime inshallah take care speak soonam alaykum people that was moib from California and you know what a discussion you know we really went just

lost myself here and I guess that's the power of conversation that you one can lose themselves in it and so we covered from just so much from reality to the ontology of being to um understanding the concept of Shan and Mal and Mal and the interplay within our reality to the verses of the Quran and the different interpretations of what relas was and could be to uh this really understanding how some of these Hadith like not waking up for

subah people take very good care of yourselves it was a pleasure as always and uh yeah thank you I like that you know this kind of we'll discuss that in one of uh a future episode on the whole psychology of that this cartisian kufur this thing of you know Kito instead of Kito that would be uh you

know but that's a it's a very dangerous fatwa we don't go with that you know we believe in welcoming people to this Caravan of Iman and the prophet said you know these what what could be better words than the words words of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam that invite people don't don't scare them away you know that that's that's not our duty some people might do it but it's not us see we are to invite invite invite invite and may Allah bless each and all Allah bless us all a mean and whatever difficulty you're

facing uh you know whatever hardships you're going through whatever struggles you know no matter how cumbersome and how insurmountable unmanageable it seems hanging there you know stay strong When Things become very

difficult Allah and as you exhale try to take a double and then as you exhale Allah with difficulty will come e so stay strong people Allah bless you all keep you always smiling