¿Amigo-Enemigo? Part 1: Sunni-Shia Dialogue: My Journey Through Islamic Studies

and having our team here we watch a lot of your work we appreciate all things that you say and we appreciate that adversity that you bring so thank you for having us today so you know just before we start in regards to myself obviously Sandra's our is he from the mantle of the new team so just a little bit more supple I know we've met before no just a little bit you know it's your interview but you know obviously that's what I don't think doesn't know about who we are in it obviously is sensibility in what you saw we're just you know a group of individuals from a shion background who basically are just trying to put our voice out there and kind of basically put our narrative out there as well now this in social media you've got loads of people you know it's

basically if you don't put your narrative people make a narrative or you know everything on that if you probably are minority for you so just trying to represent at the same time have intellectual discourse with other orlimar other speakers whether they be Muslim whether omar non-muslim is basically just spread the message of Islam that's you know quote that's authentic to the core but that promotes tolerance by the same time has an healthy difference of opinion at the same time that can be respected so based on that so most obviously you've come to we've come here today to come see you about a couple of questions for you I would say I want to start off by asking

you in regards a little bit about the song because we saw you know we see a lot of you for me personally what do I see of you is you know I just see this modern kind of Mufti Mohammad's imagine anyone you say to me are also asked a question I was diagnosed and go and I lost even offer on to anything so that's why I got to know you okay my regards I think a lot of people would want to know and I will definitely want to know about your actual credentials you know where where is you studied your background you know I think you know those loops can be this evening so that's good to show every night this room you see don't worry don't don't worry about how big my babies yeah okay Allah well first of all

shukran I mean I appreciate the whole just the opportunity to to breach of Coralie so I think that's very important in terms of studies I have said these I've kind of gone over some of this before and is on Facebook but I I I began my kind of studies in my teens so like probably that that's like now over two decades ago so when I kind of began and so I studied initially just locally here in in Birmingham in the UK some Arabic stuff like this then I traveled I went to Damascus Syria this

was probably around 97 going into 98 that kind of how I actually left here just as like turned 18 well at the time so I was 17 when I was studying Arabic here stuff like this and then just as I kind of turned 18 I I set off to Damascus so I was there probably about a year and a half and then I traveled to so there I rolled in some of the mat hats some other kind of Institute's they had Jamie at the mosque the mosque Damascus University we did some courses there some private teaching Hanafy fit

it was at that point I kind of became my Lackey I stopped interesting you know being myself away from the indo-pak sub-continent you know meeting a Martin and mink someone who is fully in the practice of Maliki is always like huh I had one two teachers from here that were my Lackey and share see b12 was still an amazing teacher still around and and I come across the Maliki mother but I wasn't I was inclined I like this thing of I'm gonna deal and stuff like there but I wasn't prepared to kind of become Maliki when I went to Damascus I

ended up living with some my lackeys as watch the Moroccans there was some Tunisians and Algerians we stayed throughout my stay there pretty much a lot of the time with some of these brothers at the time some of them more learners than others this was all kind of it was an opportunity I don't know like I because I was inclined that way and and I thought and at the time I was thinking of I wanted to memorize the Quran well so I got this it's interesting because I had known memorizing the Quran first and I was just want to study some books and I was studying with one of these guys he was

Tunisian and I said to him can I go through some aspirin azul obviously later on you realize this bible miss oldest Nikki it's not really authentic anyway but I mean at the time obviously I mean I don't really know so I said can I study with us Bible Newland so I was studying with him and I remember he just said something and it's amazing sometimes somebody can just say one thing and he can just hit you like baby sister that you're kind of running all your frame of mind at the time or your cuz he just said to me like we're going through and he's kind of like a bit heartier and we just kind of reading through his explaining and and then he just said to me look the thing is though he said that at the end of the day

because I've said Oh what verse what verse is this was in Mike was asking about Susan he said he said to be honest with you if you really if anybody who really wants to understand this thing or wants to be a crew like an alum of this mean he would have to memorize the Quran well I just said it like obviously I don't even think he was a halfway of himself but maybe he was memorizing but he just said it you know like sometimes you just say something I just hit me that's all you know why it's got a point like so I said okay I'll memorize I want to memorize the Quran and you know and I hate to think of Stein and I normally

you know I know about traditional methods you start young but you do now I'm saying I mean like as little eyes yeah like ten eleven twelve so I at that point I began in Damascus and doing other studies as well but it was very difficult because in Damascus there were no Institute for memorizing the Quran nothing but sure like that so somebody then said to me I was thinking of going at that point to that I know what I'll do is I'll finish some studies I'll go off to Sudan somebody had said to me why do you go to Sudan well and they've got like an awesome okay that sounds you know they said it's very traditional and stuff like this is

Arabic speaking and this also kind of encouraged a bit of that leap towards the Maliki because I was already inclined towards Maliki Fionna well since I'll be studying in Sudan are they Maliki anyway this is a great opportunity to kind of just embark upon the multi-fit and so so I started studying it beforehand I started kind of like going through I've got some I think those times use of kind of courses available at the time I think they were kind of all just um do you see when you listen to that yes so yeah I don't know if they officially published now but then yet something on the five pillars of Islam and detailed very detailed courses with some Mauritania chirp and

so I went through them and I started this whole thing I was living with my lackeys and but for some reason that the Sudan thing didn't go through because the political climate at the time Clinton had kind of done the bombing and stuff like this and so they were refusing visas to any Westerners and it was really interesting because we're not gone did that guys were so helpful you know the consulate when I went there and I told him because he asked me why do you want to go to city and obviously being okay booty impacts tell me what the hell you only do so I said I just want to memorize the Quran he was Allah he was so shocked like he said you know what he paid for my whole application

and everything that the consulate I did and he said like he was us really I don't think he totally didn't expect that I mean and he said he covered the costs and everything but it eventually didn't go through because of the the what is it the kind of heat the Clinton thing at the time so then I thought well somebody said to me no go to Pakistan I was like yeah I don't know if they understood like forget about obviously stop see but there's yeah yes not like to be honest video mr.

ramadhir I think it was an amazing movie inventor at the time I was very reluctant I was like nah now I want to just stick on Arabic country I want to do this one it is that you know how you are at that time you're thinking now I don't know what effects mm-hmm but then I met this guy at the oven dr lim actually he'd come back from karachi and he stopped off in damascus were like this one two weeks and we ended up just meeting somewhere and we just went out you know just chillin and some food and he actually said to me that look why don't you consider going Pakistan and I said study he said look I've studied there so many years and he said I think

you're actually really likely and so I said you think so and he said look he said you won't get any of these hassles any of these struggles because you're the Pakistani you're British you'll fit right in so he kind of like sodium and then we think he blind one pot which actually it was a little black because he said to me oh you can acetal Maliki now and he said oh you can study my blazing but it actually worked out like that you guys actually did study Manik even so it but in hindsight that was such a blank if there I would never say that to somebody

and I go if you go to pack a nice burger like what are you like Shafi students to me shock me if he wants was pretty mad so he obviously do a wink to Pakistan I went to Islamabad which was because his advice to me was look don't go to Karachi first because you'll still like your Western yeah it's really kind of like we do tea then it's the hustle and bustle and he goes to me I don't know if you're ready for that but he goes look

go to Islamabad first settle into Pakistan and then if you want move to a city like Karachi so I actually did take his advice that's all went to Islamabad I went to a big kind of showers mother a son Wow alright so and that was another I think an amazing yeah I mean that's his yeah that's why he's known as Jerry but his mother saw this was his main kind of philosophy so his main base is in baricelli which is upon your and this Islamabad branch of his is the is a second which way his son build amino has

would often visit and stuff like that but they had anime and they still do an amazing sense of tolerance yeah I know it's not amongst them like even to like you know whether it was dealing with let's say any of the other groups whether it was the hadith though the hobbies the undies for anybody they'll always say you know like how Mario you join like our brothers were like this all they let the lectures you know you had mama ZM of tops out there at the time he was in charge he was like so the kind of successor to Peter and shut up and he was running the madrasa so in his lectures you always speak like that very

merciful and he would actually once there was a lecture where one of the guys because the students used to give so he in this Mother's have had books and he like the island course and here so some of the guys would give this one time somebody gave a bit of a heated speech against like Oh hobbies and stuff like this and he actually told him off like I said to him that he said look but not like you know like well you kind of just said to him in a nice way like that he said look don't be like that like because like refer to them as our brothers and refer to them as he said like say that you know they've got a misunderstanding but don't be like he said no kind of be like this hate speech that is very this is going into like the

late 90s early 2000 about it back then now there's a bit more of a culture of tolerance that yeah that was more of a culture around fashion of now it's like it's like oh yeah you're very tolerant guy am days to be clear it was you know this is the the peak of like the that kind of evil going on it's not like it's not like a you know to make time so he was like and I think they I did hit the vanilla that was really they gave me a great opportunity to speak to them in Arabic a lot of the time the teachers the other teachers that will talk books and stuff I say one of the things he

actually said to me one of the guys is I think he's still there he was like a senior like a deputy of the whole mother sir so when we got there he interviewed me so I had no idea he's the senior because he came out in the tell me really gently proper like they're bigger so he came out like dressed really like like like I thought who's this guy like he had like a different color shoe are on different can it like tatty kameez on just like some heart like just hanging off the I thought I'm not gonna be right I threw some kind of key take

care because I thought like because he goes like oh who are you guys here for okay come this way and he kind of walks us into this room and he goes here sit in this room so I thought he's some kind of guy just wow take care of the you know like it's a big guy go like in you know so then what happens is he leaves us this I'm we said we don't want to speak to like the math of him or somebody's in charge and we've come from so then after a while he pops his head back in as has anybody come so I said no so he comes in sits down starts talking so I said to him Oh have you studied and listen like an idiot as well and

honestly and he said yep nice enough studied so I was like okay so I thought okay maybe I shouldn't have no idea yeah I thought maybe just works in the motherís I graduated so I said yeah yeah so so he said to me what do you want to do here like until you speak up so I was speaking in Arabic okay so he goes okay what do you want to do else I don't want to memorize the Quran so he goes to me how old are you so like at the time I think of 19 going up to 20 or like about that age something he goes to me he goes you're way too old yeah just like what you said about they thought I saw a little really old to to

memorize the I was I was offended I thought who the hell are you I said I said you know I have to write you this is your opinion I don't or doesn't mean anything to me I was actually like that and I said to him Allah says well Akkad is an analytic refinement here's kind of Mike lost it off and everything and then you know like I've

got me a yummy cookie so I set him okay let me think back sometime now if I think of that I let just hang my head in shame but I said to him let me test you on something so he was like okay but so he so I test him on something I can't remember now something on Arabic and and yes you got it right I was like what the hell then I was like okay then he tried testing me on something so anyway whilst this is going on this other teacher comes in he takes

us away in and then they go fine you know you can enroll here it's all good and everything no problem and I had conditions I'll go look my condition is that every day when I do hips I have to be given a certain amount of time to go sit on my own I want to go through the top seed I want to go through this I said I'll bit on my own I bought my books you know I want like I say that like I want permission for these like a normal you guys to say like later on what are you doing instantly so they thought they could see I was serious so they gonna look fun they go you can actually use our library they had like a little starts library they got at any time you want you can use that you'll have permission to sit separately after you know a certain portion of the day

and just do your revision then I realized as I became part the mother sat down that guy was like the deputy everybody she had him like nobody spoke in front of me this is why he was so laughing when I was kind of like being a bit cocky with him because he is probably thinking but I realized what the hell was I doing tell me that was a really good time there I did that if they did it with the top seed I used to go through everyday what our view is like my silver cup goes through the like let's say this is my page so I'm gonna go through any of the

words I don't understand first in a vocab book then I had this other book that was a simple book then I had this one I can English one as well which was written by an Orientalist just off difficult words in the Quran yeah then I would go through that this I had that dictionary this somebody called rather Bell Isfahan who's always on just the words of the Quran then after that I would read the translation of appalachia finally just to see that have I understood and then I would go to the library and they had I would resort to that top-seeded McAfee which was quite basically they had Roper mahogany which was bit better they had won a tough Cyril Missouri I think so everybody was quite interesting was an interesting

kind of tough see so this kind of stuff and they had like one other something like that a nice to just blame them and that was really good so I did the hip knee after that then I went to Karachi unenrolled on actually in between I went back to Damascus took a jury in the Quran because that's something I really wanted it's actually weird because when I was leaving Damascus to go to Pakistan to do his I came across you know most the most even Mangueira

you know years later I met him again he's he's written that book on Hanafy fit and The Omen the kind of British the Urban League kind of guy scholar so years later I met him again and I reminded him but he couldn't remember he said like I don't remember so I met him in Damascus towards like as I was on my way like his in the last few weeks as I'm well maybe the last month or something that I'm getting ready to leave now he had come over and was gaining a New Jersey in the Quran so he was one of the first people to tell me about this like oh and he had any jazzer so he had this really big certificate but they just made it really big so like this was like

Sibella april resides in so i he was in Damascus University and I said to him what's that and he goes this is a majors in the Quran I was like okay and he goes by basically I've gone to this ship and I've read the hope for our crews stayed in my mate that I'd like something like that you understand - Hannah and then I actually even studied some hand if you fit within believe it or not I'm Ichiko remember actually i this place actually h to go to his house and study for a few weeks there but but then so i wanted so that was always in my mind that I want that so when I finished my hair so I

went back to Damascus I'm finished I'm finished the holy four hundred I finished it in Palmdale I less than a year so that was I just I had this kind of principle that you see I did I mean I did all the kind of the the Netherland at the iron and you know all honesty when I began heaps I really struggled on the first of maybe the first week or so and and it was a face maybe it's a tasting yeah I mean I think it's an age thing and also the fact that I don't know like I was in all honesty I was kind of a bit struggling and the teacher could kind of sense that and you know may Allah bless him he was very

encouraging to be feared honestly and once you know I was there dive in the first or second day I think the second day he was like I was seen around he sticks to him and you just had this huge peak in them and I was just like I was like and he could just see my face like with my face and so what happened we had a break for breakfast like so what the way they would just never start about

5:30 in the morning till about 7:00 something and then you go for breakfast for about half an hour hour so I was just so he said to me okay everybody going off to break and he said to me okay you can I sit back and it's my space except it doesn't mean he goes to me look okay they

just don't know that time so they never ever never did anything like that to me thank God because I actually once thought if you tries to hit a good idea because I can't read a tape you just break the sticks on the people Muhammad Allah because ups plus they're always very respectful to me so I did that kind of his name you know half his other commute so the thing is after that they I went to got my teachers in Damascus did you say half that doesn't know yes I mean it wasn't

that I went and I read the whole Quran to this year I remember the book I guess the ship actually said to me he passed away he passed away before this thing in Syria you know Allah blessing but he he said to me look listen just read a bit of the Quran I'll give you Jessa I said I want to read the whole Quran kind of like oh yeah I want to read the whole for hunting what would do is like I mean it took me

about two months to read it to him so I go because some days he couldn't make it for example some days I might not be able to make it so like that whenever I'd go I'd read Jews or just under them like that that was the whole thing and we completed it all and it's in that Masjid that I meant that there was a major Arabic grammarian of the time he passed away as well before that whole Syria crisis there was up the honey of dhikr he was he kind of received international awards in Arabic grammar and he was deemed the most knowledgeable one of the most knowledgeable people to do with like the book of Seabury in that era like he was get awards from Saudi and all these place and he's just chill

out in this mosque and old guy just chillin once again nobody it's just him and this other old guy no one's better two old guys and that they used to come back way before like an hour before sellout time or something and this is simply and I used to be there because I just be going over the stuff to read to this shared and aged to come based obviously know that share he was like junior to them but when I first notice them I just thought you know two old guys like what's they know he had such a sense of humor on him he was like huge tonight you're not the other old guy

used to trip him over and stuff like so I was like proper like psych cracking up and then my teacher told me he said have you heard of that more of him on how idle arabiya I said he I used like a book on like a dictionary where week grandma that's it he said do you know who's also and I said no he said that's him so I was like no way he's the police color so then I start kind of like be like I'll go up to him sit with them instead so he became quite fascinated by the fact that I was Pakistani and Maliki yeah already fascinating because he was writing a book on Imam Ali at the time and he goes to meet you

Maliki I'm nothing at that time I said these reasons you know it's really long here like curtains did we really get that I think so if I think you know really black was also and this is another thing he found really strange like he found it like not good strange in there like oh what the hell but like a unless I don't think they have one I don't think they have dark black here like that I don't think that so I used to find it really strange that my style and all this and and and he goes all your mother here how the hell did you become mine so I say and they took like me and then the thing is I was into our grammar so he so he kind of liked that

that whoa you're into grammar because he was an expert so we went a lot of back and forth back and forth and I also asked him stuff and you know a little kind of like this but doesn't this not make sense over here I used to kind of find that intriguing that what they'll actually chime in here I'll kind of challenge those great people but but you as a great so this was in Damascus then I went to Karachi afterwards and enrolled in be Nuria and did the whole are linear program and the Panora is the famous is dear Bundy's Jew so be Nuria is at the Urban Institute there's to be nori is in Karachi there's

be nori Institute oh not so this that's the the first one just called be nori town so that is the original like so a graduate from there by the name of musty Nayeem he went and set up this second one which is about 15 minutes away called Jamie up in Oriya so jeremy epic Nuria has more of a focus on accommodating for foreigners okay so like it's a slightly better I mean much better accommodation over the course is a bit more tailored they've got an Arabic section so teach foreigners and and he's very connected

even I wouldn't know that Pakistan so well they're not in terms of the Meru system more international students yes so his people his motherís are to be fair was some of the others they had it a bit like kind of like local style yeah but he had like a whole separate like the whole part for foreigners with separate separate section separate building more together and he had a lot and he had a huge connections with like Americans and you'd go back forth and foreigners and yet so many foreign students there me and I was connected as well locally so so I studied there I mean I'm do like they'll allow me to because one thing I don't want to do is this start from

scratch you know they have this thing to start from yeah they look bad they don't want you to kind of one thing I said to them when I got there was that look I've studied like this I've done this I've done this also in Damascus I said oh just test me and then let me go in what you think is suitable so i'm d'lai they tested me and they put me into the fourth year select a running test with them then they said alright fine you don't need to do you know you've passed this so then i kind of studied with them the main science is fear for fear a dog had the eats or sort of had the arabic grammar at the you know all these kind

of art either and then moving on to daughter hadeeth with you actual they say they don't mess around it's always and I mean although they take on it is different so they take on it is like like mainly focuses from a fifty perspective I understand and a lot of it is catered to defend the I suppose that we got to just prove listen this is become Dalila I managed to do and at first for some reason some of the teachers object in but they were cool was that you see what I did is each book I bought it with because they just have these kind of like these cyclic parental effects tiny print big ones like these horrible prints by the time you read them not in a distant but it really is

poorly kind of done so I said I wanna I'm gonna buy my art obviously I'm gonna buy my own kind of prints but I bought each book with a kind of commentary on it yeah sure yeah like a major country so like I tried like let's say slightly Muslim I call the yards commentary on the on top of it so as an example told me the I got like let's say or what critical Arby's now so what would happen is every day it's feasible they can read it because you're sitting in class anyway tell me like a few pages so that allowed me to go through like at least 80% of all of these Khan please well because because you're doing it day by day it's not like you know you're sitting there anyway so you're just gonna read through it so I'll just

highlight a bhoot stuff so that was a huge opportunity and they kind of told me you know some of them told me off a bit about the time they go all this is because you one of them girls are you doing this because you can't read the Arabic no because you know that they go why have you got like you know this era because like you can look at on this oh by the way this is there we're gonna come on tre because there's going to be some questioning raised the binary because we say okay how much I said I will read for the whole book for the year like one of the books so I cook up sahi Muslim I used to be the reader in

the place so that class had about just under 90 students so I was the person age to read the book because my era be used to just speak in Arabic to the teachers like I was like on like I wasn't like so I said when he when they said that to me I just laughed like I said like my oblique like and you know the funny thing is they were title quiz you want it like when you're reading like cuz I used to in fact one of the things I kind of regret a big I mean I say regret but it's the eyes have a huge fascination like an obsession with Arabic grammar the way I did later on with 50 and other things but I repeat grunt like I was saying when I was with that something's I find this fine like a

bit boring but the usual but now how you do Arab and how is their how I learn and how many different interpretations can you bring here and I used to be like obsessed with this stuff but the problem with it and I used to know that he laughs yeah it's like how does a fish disagree with foie gras and why does foie gras you know like why does he disagreed here with SIBO way and what is Matheny said about him was Lee but the problem with this is this needs the culture to stay alive in like you gonna talk to somebody about oh yeah you tell my mom I left motherless that there was nobody to talk to at all about Arabic grammar where as v and stuff you can still potency well they can understand me but are we Grumman so it kind of just

like you know like it just kind of obviously the culture not your flesh just like I can just continue with this baseline just a quick comment about those who would say ovulates Arabic I've not kind of like criticizing my Arabic per se because I mean I'm sure people generally you must know better because well loudly but the thing is my Arabic generally is fine but I mean yes I've never really heard people ever criticize my are we even it was one individual even in the motherís are one of the things that they never really used to they used to all kind of say that oh yeah like his Arabic is because

that was something I had an obsession with what I really liked yeah and I was always into poetry even though I preferred maybe I find older poetry in many ways better than in some ways that Arabic poetry that's because the Don Airey poetry was from the classic times and in the classic times they never dealt with the concepts modern poetry deal to because this is more recent so they poetry is mainly all about like you know like either war or well stuff like I mean there is other stuff as well but because this is more recent it touches on recent also it's more is your favorite or do boy

although oh my god man that's such a awesome question you know like all the poetry I think really by putting very difficult to get into something like especially if they are on Pakistani or indo-pak Harley bike I would have to begin with giving tribute to obviously me obviously being you know Mead was born with ISO and by the way you do it as I'm bringing this up cause something where she

[Music] is that me to see me obviously they called him the God of War - yeah and he was like obviously so you got it begin with me Takumi there's no you know you can't really compare it in fact there's an interesting I was just the other day looking at this yes like this touch on yeah I suppose bringing evolution simply argue bringing evolution entry says much Sahel her main channel like don't take me lightly yes you know I don't speak like I'm something fatty mozzarella me llamo Pierre tahe followed by song top

jock a hot pepper they say in sana colita here and this is our most valuable thinking this like you say it's like you know like you see the way you look at these because he begins by saying don't take me lightly that Pinta - this could be understood it weighs either the time revolves so much Oh humans have been going around for so much jadi food so you can take it you could take it in either way that's no joke a hawk Kippur this in Tonica thing then you come out a little office it takes so much to make an a human and in

Sun Wow in the Sun that you know was it as well if they are D'Amico be my surname in song you know like you not every person is truly an every ride me about religious stuff but you ever get away with it look at like take a look at how means one line when he says me get Dino must have Koki approach the whole nettle like what do you ask about major agent cash ain't cha you know like the the Hindu

thing - car cancha de remember there is a temple dear my beretta cut this monkey like he's he's abandon Islam like but they won't get away with it but it was a Muslim you wasn't I love the poets like they were squatters it seems my today's time this hippie and hardly you've got to pay tribute Harley you know it's like I like somebody said they said because you know if you like a bit of attitude through that attitude to say holiday fun somebody said Bucky suck the best go she she got it they were just trying he mine

was it a dawn like yet and yes this line which kills it you know because he has this line that way says boots they have okay I live corn here but they say that they hosting lose volume up we but like at home but like because the thing is though I've never had to introduce myself here there's always people around me introducing me

I love poetry mine so this was the kind of thing so in Arabic as well I mean it's good as well I do but I've not found the same buzz because today in Arabic what they start to do is they start to do freestyle no longer on the meter yeah then I just find that like it's yes I mean these were generally as I was saying my kind of studies they are graduated there I did mine if they're my multi course after doing the island course that was another two years of

mostly training and we trained under who was north pole Ashoka he was one of the main students of Mufti Turkey yes so he was one of his keys to you in fact he had authored by put together some of his kind of books on Stan stuff like this and so he was like one of these prodigies and so I he was the Grand Mufti for us so he graduated under two years of study with him and he was at that time that there was a I mean it's not at that time but there was in that mother Assad Tunisian Maliki movie you know wow like you think about you know

is that hadith the Emeli lay a bottom you know there's certain people if they take an oath they happen to have a Tunisian Maliki Musti who'd come to Pakistan he don't studies in Pakistan as well but then to museum messed up like later keys I couldn't go back and he just got a job this ways to teach in the mother cells so they stood so now I would often resort to him and when he came to the

mufti thing I said I want to do the ether I'll do the Hanafy thing what I want to do the Maliki thing so already like oh listen all the done book oh I've already need something molecule a carry on my own in the mattress that they used to teach Aaron like you go through all the meth heads because we had were in the furnace section of course so most the students were like Indonesia and Thailand these so different different places so they had to teach it comparatively now so in if that as well and done' hadith is comparative as well although they always bigger bigger that they have to teach comparatively and then all the commentaries i were going was going to a mainly manically so i'd

like even are we called the number thought you know all these people bathe as yeah obviously if not had just fought somebody as well and stuff like that but so if there was a but most of his famous come to a party i did i didn't go through the whole thing but I went through at least some entire volume chunks of it yeah now so in Ystad they allowed me to run that syllabus with them remove some of the Hanafi books so they kept like the eggnog redeem and a few they move like a ship elite and we spoke those a shuffle fat au or whatever so they said ok or embed or Fatah forgot now it's good but they said ok that's fine they say well you can embezzle for that so they said

you can remove that will keep the air even a B Dean's will keep some other modules that keep rotating and you can put in the Maliki syllabus will be set by chef Matthysse earning so he sent me the Maliki thing and then so that actually did work out so if you have back to my guy and said oh so you know when you said that you don't that was so much confidence what's his name you're speaking about poster that

June Elia another guy where like quite a bit and so he says that Shia many Muhammad kabuki me now maybe I never even love mother so the thing was that finishing the by this time how's your pop I want to get into your dress code and that s how you how's your voice a good question you know because you see for the Pakistan standards they consider

me a bit like out of syncope the this is what I'm saying so when I was in Pakistan by these standards obviously who shalwar kameez sorry it's not that but by this and so for example my sugar kameez would have colors as an example it sounds so petty but they were against colors base to say that so I didn't understand this because they they got to me what like one of the teachers kind of flipped at me and so he said like what the hell is your address and I don't understand

what the hay was talking about it so you [Laughter] don't understand what was he going on his dress you're wearing something else underneath then he said your collars like he goes your colors are like the Shopify

you guys take the thing is yes so then some dress code like they had issues with my style of it at the time I used

to wear glasses like these funky glasses I said you know these blue tint with silver frame rock so so these to find a bit of like what the hell's so they did have some issues but it wasn't Endora happy if I wore any mama but generally I didn't bring daughter hadeeth whom he studied hadith I kind of wore that Imam and stuff and they had an issue with me trimming my beard but it wasn't like the way it is now it was it's probably like probably a bit short of yours I suppose comes round Maya just the style is a bit different but the length was probably like another

kind of length yes so I'm at without me what they do is they do the beard check when the exam stop is also to get entry twigs the exam wall they do a beard chicks I still like kind of like so they actually cause an issue once the one of the dad these external invigilator x' so I did this one exam and on the fifth day 6 day exam on the fifth day coming out he barred me from

the exam disqualified it was like wow because obviously the way you come out

so this one day and he goes like this

issue and then I'll go to ok all else fails he goes must have for my lips up Iijima what are you talking about I don't know what this is you know no so I

said to him ok if I can prove T then I'm cool yeah yeah so I said if I just go get my books and show you then it's ok he goes so he goes you're going ok because he thought I was blacking I just went to my room quickly I came back with the book they don't know the 180 position back home he goes to me get lost [Music] but I mean I have to resit that exam later on so our research in stuff but I was like this kind of but they had

issues with me then obviously now at

that point they had to

have you here follicle and I called a usually here grows from and then you have a nourishing kind of my eight bones these goes so the nourishing parts are loud they hate to kind of grow on the other because he was you know they can't do that technology with all this stuff although they can stop people snoring

guys everybody back at it so he goes no before that right so based on this like the look finger lion especially like obviously I wanna like just the time with the looks is that YC in regards to the way you look now now compared to that I was you know obviously man watches hope your videos from when I've seen it the way you look like your whole-- the boss oh yeah yeah so the boss is not too much additional because like I said put them on too long they waited for things one day I might wear shalwar kameez on day mahogany mom with us will fine but you

see the way you where's the person or what you'd see your personally there's a video of you looking serious you see the thing is that is a very good question yeah so I appreciate that because a lot of people sometimes they say that why is it in this clip you're like all like this and what and then they put these theories along the way so obviously say to me you know I won't say that look there were a few things I think even then like even in my mother

first of all I was quite fresh back from the mother or son that was my first ever kind of public speech or Logan I think it was just early 2005 he was like very passionate just watching seeking knowledge I can only feel like no and you know the other thing is that you see that I wasn't like I still had that kind of humor side to me because I think that I've always had that but I had this like you know you you this narrative complex that when you give a speech like this is how I see way when you're in a certain context you must behave in a particular

way yes yes this and I too was just a part of that then because this is all I'd ever known so we're just saying I'm after that speak to the camera off so like no like I'll give an example in that actual speech because when I'd come back to the UK I started teaching Arabic shortly after I was the air like probably within a few months and I had students as well so some of the students came to that what that lecture and they actually said to me and I can remember this they said like what they said like we've never seen you that serious ever so it's not only be them because they said that at the end of that speech and I just kind of loved it laughed it off but you see when you're programmed in a particular

way that look when you're in a particular place you must be somber and that's because every and this is the thing to do like you can't be joking the same that place to joke I mean you might crack once at all just he's not allowed to joke and laugh and you must wear a hat you must do this it's not outlook so I think like I naturally just conformed it was you know this whole thing of change like that probably from today's about thirteen years ago yeah now along the way like when I came back I did other things like I studied I went to Birmingham University University of Birmingham I enrolled on a teaching

degree I took a degree in psychology that took the degree in psychology I did part-time took me about five years five six years to chameleon very study I actually you know I do but I really liked psychology the teaching thing I think was more just practical like I thought well I'd like to get into something professionally at the time obviously teachings nightmare but nevertheless the experience was really good because what it did was it put me in a context where people were teaching religion so one we had to look at philosophy of religion we had to look at different theories questioning religion jameelah this opened my mind to be another thing that my simply opened my

mind as well with some of the tutors honestly we had these tutors this Jeff T's was one there was a Grimm it was a he was a really popular by Ferrari but there were respect they had for religion well why he blew my mind well I couldn't fathom that our non-muslim would respect religion and religious artifacts with that much sanctity probably more the Muslims do much more than me N+ fear and it really kind of shocked like you know when we have discussed religious kind of artifacts and stuff so let's say like okay guys and bringing out a box they put it in these like okay

I'm gonna take out certain things and and he was any would tell us that by the way you know when you're teaching Maori because I specialized in re and so if you would say that to the whole class like when you're teaching this make sure like is this so seriously they said that never allow any disrespect or any of these artifacts you know these kind of religious kind of symbols like always put them with and you know being very careful don't really kind of hit me mind that these people are like kind of like amazing people you know they're not like how we have this image of this kind of like a hateful image towards not we don't all but some people will have like a hateful image

towards like non-muslims but they are such really like wild you know like this we have like a huge at honestly I was so like till this day I'm really kind of wild by the way he had that kind of respect towards the is I mean I'm not just this timing a little in order to eat Hindu already whatever like he had this great sanctity that look and they would say this is a hot stuff that's what they would say and you gotta be very and then that kind of the discussions we had the way when I asked them questions it got me thinking like it really made me think and then like I went through courses on philosophy of

religions I went through I remember finishing a few series a few courses on this really kind of glop like it my mind went through bloody some kind of like major melancholic might be like you I had this huge cognitive dissonance psychology I always kind of loved the brain and mind so when I studying psychology and when they were showing things and and then I'm just trying to be true to myself that look hmm and one thing that really helped me ironically this is interesting is an irony one thing that really helped me was the fact that I didn't have religious kind of I

wasn't like my family whenever religious my network I was never in a religious kind of structure because when I came back from my studies I really hated this if I'm gonna be honest I hated is the wrong word like I felt really kind of sad and kind of let down because all my friends when they came back they were straight delivering a footbath they family had arranged for them to be in this Masjid his family had arranged for him to give a football or an extra man they were fully yet I was like the only one there's like nothing and I felt kind of like really because identified that that

you know like like my family really ain't a part of the homicide they don't really take an interest in that kind of stuff and and neither were my friends that I knew at that were like I was just like on my own but this I mean little did I know at the time this was to become a major strength because that allowed me then to question things allowed me to move away from views because I have nobody to kind of condemn me because it might finally imagine my family were let's say dear one thee now I started changing they would start something up imagine they were bravely and now I started questioning things or if they were selling feet if they would have like boycotted me or my take but because they were completely

disinterested like I could just do what I want even that hummed in a lovely way if you strike your definite you became like I didn't know but that was a huge blessing in this what I thought at the time er I was really saddened by felt that wow like if only I had all my friends had II was trying but it was really a great blessing from Allah me not there because it allowed me or and over the years you know you look at things you and then I realized like I don't want to be a part of any of these groups and so and I think that person now to you now is like I with especially within the last one especially with this Monday night with

morphine that's really that allowed me to just kind of be myself and you don't worry because I do it from home and I'm already in my home when I how are you see people you know what like I would say there's a there's definitely a secret I want to share about this and it's about you as well okay expose you on access to my webcam sign over the check up I would say that in regards to the way you are online or the way you carry yourself it's something that I would say personally myself I've known okay that meaning the way I am I'm quite a lively person you know a bit loud at times that

you might know is I don't manage that job but it's like people say something similar to me at times don't say Oh Rosa when you speak you know don't you know be a certain way and be a bit like this and know be that you know like like you likely get to as a typical way like 50 yea sees to that and I'm like that's not me bro tonight but that's just how it is and it's like but do we have to do that though and by watching you I would say that's something that I've definitely seen is that well you can still deliver what you to deliver but you don't have to be you you don't have to do that but it's a hard journey getting lead because the problem is you know there were so many points along the way where people said to me but mostly we want to call

you we want to invite you I mean now I don't bother with this stuff like a fan of let's become a bit like kind of disenfranchised with all this stuff but a few years back I was into this age to go to deliver talks and I was a lot more to that broad as deliver talks and stuff like and at that time I was into this and people were saying to me look Musti we want to invite you more but you know what will you just put a hat on will you kind of allow the sides to kind of lightly crawl would you kind of slightly kind of mellow it down and it was at those times that I really had to make that choice then I do I go with this I

respect that it was hard like at that time because at that time I kind of felt that because there was a point where I thought should I and I thought well because if you like at the end of the day look if it's not me and then it comes back to this water.we because religion my understandings ought to be for the maple therefore everybody why am I trying to be something fake which the common person isn't anyway and then if they do ever see me like they see me like this they'll be like what the hell you know that aspect of what you meant you about dressing one way interesting that's something that is go to me you know because at least see this way somebody sees you they don't like you yeah yeah somebody sees me like these peoples they all look at him he's saying always a

clown with cracks show me fine no don't assign me no but my point is at least they know me I'm not being a hypocrite no I respect that so I would say that's definitely something that I took personally I think now in regards to your education now would you say because I want to move on to the other Shore comedy and I think this was a yeah yeah this is this but it's a good opportunity because I think a lot of people sometimes have these questions yeah but they think like oh well cuz you

wanna see no you owe fake it's like look because look I studied for years on end I memorized the Quran I studied all these stomach Sciences the key sciences I took tests in them at least three times a year I passed them I actually have top grades I studied the books of hadith from cover to cover the main books at least at least the seven eight top books I have to sift including the mock Barney including Abu Jaffa at the Howie's Shahani Eliza was testing in them three times I took positions like top position top

three of the the entire class of 90 student I mean it's not like something I didn't just I went on to do if there I passed the exams I was I went through a graduation ceremony it's not like you know my point was yes eat like no people don't need to accept what I'm saying that's fine like your dentures but like don't go if I could see I wouldn't say why but just don't take my mama back oh yeah and I'll put that working would you know or just be Jamie right like if you're a doctor and you say look I've got research and I say well this research of yours you know I don't agree with it also you'll get your degrees fake

so definite some things I was definitely