Shaykh Nabeel Khan (USA) | Meta-narratives, Movies & Metonymy | MindTrap #71 | Mufti Abu Layth

foreign [Music] [Music] our audience make sure this is streaming live I believe we is live let me just right all right what is going on people

I take it you can hear me loud and clear right so it says uh right I'll just bring up the comment section see that the audio is coming through um um got some people right guys if you can hear me audio is good

Allah bless you all right people we have with us tonight the esteemed guest I'm going to bring up the profile in front of you uh you have right there uh tonight's guest is Hussein who is from California USA somebody that has dedicated much of his life uh to the Quran studying it learning memorizing and then teaching it and let me bring up

the the Noor blessed face whilst we are waiting assalamu alaikum sure foreign the audio is loud and clear and that you can because in the past sometimes there's been a discrepancy between my audio and that of the esteemed guest uh yourself right so I take it that the coming

through uh loud and clear with all that noise so people guys let me just uh right oh did I just hear some I think I just heard an echo uh right I don't I hope not let's uh so let me just introduce uh Forest tonight Nabil Hussein who from a very young age has dedicated his life to not only memorizing but studying the Quran

um around the bay area of the great United States and then set up on uh quite an adventurous uh path really coming across great mashaikh and we'll go into that uh all of or many of whom inspired him with the uh many different brilliant features of the Quran and leading him to set up his own sights and institutions where he teaches and explores a rich and diverse topics and themes within the Quran today inspiring

many other people so Chef Nabil right firstly once I know it's been quite a um it's been uh quite a uh what shall we say an epic in in having this because I know we've been back and forth and a lot has been going on so yeah so shukran once again let's get right to your journey so as a young person you've been uh you've found yourself on the path of guitar on the Quran talk to us a bit about this in

your in your glorious words [Laughter] so my life within this family um my mother has always wanted us to do heaves her boys and I'm three brothers so when we moved to America from Pakistan when I was eight from Abu Dhabi actually Abu Dhabi and Pakistan we moved um to America and we were eight and we moved to Southern California and we moved to Southern California and

this is 2002 and there my mother has this wish that her children go to hibs they go to the hips program and she literally in that time just searches on Google hips programs and we find uh in North Cal so this is like six hours North that there is a hips program and we then make that move and when we moved there my brother who's eight years older than me and I am around eight years old so I'm eight he's 16.

what's his name his name is yeah and we reach um this city of Fremont it's like 30 minutes from San Francisco yeah and we're here and now when I've arrived the goal was for me to do a heads and I am a bit young for him and around that time so we're waiting for me to enter hymns my elder brother he is he gained an affinity towards the hip school and he wants to join in and now he is older than the H so now here we are I am

younger to enter and he's he's older than the age but uh he really wants to enter so my mom and him they really pushed forward and then the shuyuk there might uh from Fremont um they work together and they're like you know what he's got the skills let's bring him in and masha'allah he enters and then within three years he completes and during that time I also enter but the subhanallah the way Allah works the goal was for me to have been my mom got a buy one get one free situation and

then both of us uh complete and my brother the reason I'm bringing this him up is he was someone that was when I when I look at you I remember him a lot he was someone who was very authentic in who he was and because we didn't come from a his family we didn't come from a family were just anyone would carry consider irregular you know and he is now someone entering heav so he is very fashionable he is very you know he has his interests in the Arts and the entertainment and all of that so here he is and for a lot of people that became

um who were considering to put their children into hives they they saw him as this bright light in the sense of oh I can put my child into haves and into being studied and they're going to come out all right right they'll they're not gonna forget the world and they are going to have this connection so this whole became this hope and there are many like now obviously many years from now and that have become struggled and you know their starting point was their parents looking at my brother and wanting to put their own children into heaven wow uh now what happened with me right so I am now in heaves I'm around

14 years old and my brother he is 22. and around this time my brother um he gets in a car accident in Pakistan and he passes away and this was a huge shocker for our entire family but this is where I think like the torch passes on and it's a pivotal part of my story because now here I am in the middle of heaves and I remember I was 15 just in I was because we do 10 just from the back and then we start how how old are you at this time

I am 14 years old 14 and your brother he's passed away inside in this tragic accident may Allah bless his afterlife and and even many years on but still bless your family and Grant your family ease so you're a teenager at this time um right okay and and this unquestionably the the the the kind of tragic trauma um and finding yourself I mean you you already said you you you you looked up to him in this way this has a pivotal impact on you does it it does so it has a pivotal impact in

two ways I would say we'll leave the second part for when it comes in the first part is obviously just in my general life here I am in the middle of my hips 15 inches in and I I am 14 so I'm relatively young to make any decisions but now life has life has shifted me around um and at this point I am doing my hives and the hips program that were in their focus is just the head start right we're not delving into the Quran or the understanding of it but around this time I'm really beginning to question why am I doing his in the first place right all of this has happened in life it's this one is really hard work it's really tiring and it's around this time that you know Allah he opens up ways and that

that year the 2009 year you know it was the golden year or era of traveling courses that um you know Al Madrid and Norman and uh Sharif and all of these people they're all everywhere and they start approaching their in my city and this is the time when they're not as popular as they are now so you could you know you could step up and there's a lot of talking period with them there was something special about that time though it was yeah I would say it's pretty short uh term content I think it was at a time when you could you were digesting long-term

learning a lot and and I think the the huge celebrity dumb hadn't been massively stopped I mean it was clearly there but just it was still developing in some way and therefore making uh certain people more accessible making certain interactions more natural it uh yeah yeah but yeah you were saying

yeah definitely it was a time where you were getting this um close connection with these people and they were more human than celebrities and I mean immense respect for them still it's cool um you're you're getting this closeness with them so they're it's more real and uh many of the sugar uh were impacting this 14 year old kid right helping him out and one of the biggest things that was happening at this point was the mosque um or the Masjid that I'm doing my hips is a is a deobandi instead of living Masjid right so they have a certain way of thinking and al-masure

and you know all these other groups have a different way of thinking yeah um and now when I and different enough for where singers are pointed at each other but when you are someone trying to learn right and you're a kid especially you're just going for whatever is calling you more so I'm at this point where I'm going to this other mosque where these traveling courses are coming in and I'm doing these courses which have a very different Viewpoint than the message that I am uh doing my hips so I'm going back and forth and the Bay Area right the San Francisco area is one of the most diverse places I'm not sure if you're aware but we have you know day

tuna here we have you know the blessed it's a blessed area you'll find a huge following of each font around you right and especially when you're going in Ramadan you're like every other day you are digesting different viewpoints if you choose to and if you don't if you don't if you choose not to then you can be just in your own bubble but regardless I am um going back and forth and um when I'm coming back to my area it's like oh nabil's now going to study you know with the with the other people without other groups and it is for me

that's also bringing up like okay because now you still have to choosing like okay who am I going it's like a sports team right which one am I going to go with um but regardless Allah he's allowed me to study more and more and more and then for the next six years I am getting deep into these studies and getting all of getting my fit and all of these things in from both aspects I'm getting the deobandi take where I am doing my gifts and I'm also getting the other's perspective from the start of the group where I am getting yeah there was a a you studied Sharia [Music]

foreign that's right yeah so I was getting a lot of these diverse thoughts coming in which become really crucial because it starts at a certain point when you are getting all of these different viewpoints coming in yeah which can be very different you start having to zoom out a little bit that's cool you start having this you start your brain goes on this greatest common factor right and you start to figure out okay what is going on and that's what leads to you know after that 20

14 era is when I start realizing that I I'm getting all of these different viewpoints coming as right the fragment I get that each is using for their arguments but I have not read the Quran myself right I have not read the Quran cover to cover like I like the way and I was a kid growing up as a reader who's reading books I know what reading a book feels like like I know that if you were to ask me what's at the beginning of this book what's at the End of This Book what's in the middle of this book I can tell you right there's a flow but I realize that I don't have that flow when it comes to the Quran like I'm very knowledgeable or like fairly

knowledgeable about the intricacies that can be used with particular ahadis in particular ayat but if you were to ask me like a a book then I wouldn't be able to have that map in my head and that is when I get deeper into you know let me just uh pot like put a little mute for a second yeah and let me go through this and what happens there is that in a nutshell when I go through the Quran having gone through all of you know this Fair yeah which is uh no it's that that it is that

that the there are certain self-evident truths that themselves cannot be proven so it's kind of he's highlighting that mathematics even though it's seen as complete but it's uh conclusions start becoming hard-coded they start becoming cemented in our study of Islam um you can hear me all right yep uh yeah I can hear you so what I've done is I've just um refresh the stream so it should be going through now once again I just want to make sure that it's uh

let me just check the YouTube should be picking it up it does say excellent condition um connection so hopefully it's give it two seconds to it's feeding it through and I'll be there right it should be so right I take it it's uh it's it's going through fine so okay let's uh uh yep sorry uh let's resume and if there's any issues I'll give you a shout but yeah

you were saying yep so yeah you've um sorry please yeah please proceed yeah I was saying that the conclusions that we often see they start getting cemented in um to our study so we'll say oh this thing is Haram so our Haram list starts increasing and our Halal list starts increasing and they become cemented so when we think Islam we think of these conclusions right so we'll begin with oh certain things are just Haram you know your eyebrows doing your eyebrows um music is Haram your various things I often think of these two because that's a given for a lot of people for a lot of people you just start off with that so

when you go into the Quran you start expecting these to be in the Quran yeah and you don't find them and you know this way of thinking this kind of spirit towards the Quran is this inspired by someone one of them is this just you is this uh because where is this coming from this um this kind of uh inquisitory uh Outlook towards the Quran trying to be more somewhat more objective and unbiased that's what it sounds like it's trying to be a yeah so where is that coming

from is it is it you is it um is it inspired from someone else okay the reason I'm saying is because you've mentioned all these names that you're going between and you know there's all these mashaik and so I'm just curious yes I think the combination is of me when I take that journey of Lucky let me just go through the Quran cover to cover let me just shower in it let me see what's happening what the tone is what's what's going on inside of this Quran I I start discovering you know Allah

Allah's anger towards certain characteristics and Allah's happiness with certain characteristics and you're learning a lot about Allah and then right I mean you can just take the famous you I mean in a few pages you're in and then you have the story of the cow right like asking questions about the cow that page you know when we're doing heaves we're practicing because it it does have repeating words but you're looking at that and there is this clear like Allah is getting um he's getting angry at a certain characteristic that the bunnies

right so that tells you something about Allah and then his relationship with Fifth and how we approach it and that just it's put a spark in my head but then I guess for any idea that you get you don't want to be crazy so then you start finding that am I the only one who's thinking this way right it's all in my head and then you and then you discover people and I think I for me um discovering someone like Sheikh uh nadui for example um who you wouldn't think would be under that category but just going through his uh classes I remember I signed up for

his philosophy class and logic and just his approach and and just his approach with dealing with the Quran and then and then what what really struck me was with certain shuyo they had this um humility when it came to the book of Allah where and nothing not everyone does but there's just this particular characteristic where they see it and they're like you know what this is a hard one for me because it's not isn't yet I cling into this I would see that a lot with me where he would he you could see and even in this book I don't know if you know what is it if the oceans were in for that journalist spends a

year with him um I don't know if you've heard of this book yeah and in that book you notice the same thing where he is himself is like okay I have these conclusions in my head but it's very hard for me to find that in the book of Allah even though it's cemented in my head seeing that should for having this um I think it's the same time I discovered you as well um was a big one in that sense and particularly about him and um his name and traditional circles becomes so taboo

because of this you know his viewpoints and it becomes like the way he's often talked about in those circles in in traditional circles is that he does not know what he's talking about right oh wow is that the is that the impression that um uh you feel was historically there or you feel this still persists to some extent today I think I think with his name it still persists oh this is a traditional Circle and it will bring out his name um it will put your entire element into question for for a lot of these groups because it's just like oh you subscribe to that team that must

mean you're against everything in our team oh wow and because he's he's me thinking sorry here's me thinking that uh you know is now as of let's say the last three four years uh I'm assuming this is me assuming that he's become now like uh almost a pretty much like a household name a staple name and he has become quite um accepted as a like he's he's kind of

squeezed on into what is the mainstream even if people don't uh agree with him but he's also one of the people there you know the amount of TV interviews he's done sometimes and being called on alongside great you know big senior muftes and so I would have thought people now are like oh you know uh but I didn't think they would be that still you know it's so taboo now um I would still say it's taboo because uh just hearing his name inside this oh there's a his he's gotten popular and I

and you're right there every more P more and more people know his name but um accepting him says a lot about your own you know Traditional Values oh wow that that is a challenge so when he came he came to the Bay Area and I was still in this phase of you know figuring out my relationship with Dean and after having studied um and I went to his program and I in my head because of this preconceived notion I was expecting you know some holes and flaws and all of that and uh Dr shahzad has been on your podcast probably he was there too

and I remember I went there and having through the Quran cover to cover and you know this relationship with the Quran is like one piece yeah you can spot when someone knows it or not all right you can spot when someone has read a book or not and when he was his question answers now that he's older he gives them very small he gives very small questions and answers back when his hair was more darker you would he would have much lengthier answers most of his answers are now just like [Laughter] would have some of these answers where

he would say he would say uh what is it alhamdulillah you know it says he had these kind of iconic uh statements that he would he would use but yeah hmm okay so going there and really like I was having this one-on-one brain sync with this man and realizing oh he like he gets it and then you would even notice in the audience that a lot of

people even though they were like oh yes he gave and so there are a lot of people relationship with him or a relationship with you would be one of oh look at them trying to make the dean easy right but in a in a in a in a realm in which you are reading the Quran it's you don't see it as that at all right you see it as oh look at how um seriously they're taking the plan right and that started happening and I remember just that environment um where he was busy you know answer he was talking to people I think they were having the picture session and so I had a question to ask him about his five categories of Haram thing so he wasn't

there and I asked shazat Saleem and then the fact that his student was able to give such a complex answer to me it was just like oh there is um that was giving me Assurance of that oh like there is this relationship with the Quran that is an important one that we all need to be having because if basically if two minds can you know think alike there what is the force what is the electricity there and I've noticed uh even with my conversations with you and we had regarding the Miracles um it it's we were able to have that you know electric connection because there

was that sink and that sync is what I'm talking about there's something about the Quran that if more and more people I believe were having this cover to cover connection you would have more thinking happening and I think what I noticed is that sync is sometimes lost because two people who are debating about Islam have not read the book you mean so what you're saying sure is that the souls must be connected ah yeah well absolutely absolutely

that's the souls are connected you know there is something very special about certain people amongst the muhammadissa but and even uh and other people that they uh I I just mean are these people are obviously in our time but there's obviously countless other people that you see they put this Spotlight back on the Quran and you had that the centrality of the Quran they spoke of this and championed this concept then you have other people

obviously you have people in the Arab world as well Ibrahim and you'll have uh obviously other I'm not saying that it's exclusive to these people I'm just giving some names as an example but because that is a theme that was almost and it's not that I think all Muslims unquestionably love the Quran but the de facto without realizing it the Quran had taken a a back position it was something that was just it had been uh relocated to to and relegated to a uh

to to a to a non-primary yeah um space so everything now just revolved around whether for some people it's fatawa for some people it's something else for some people it's something and then the Quran is there in the background just to sure they wouldn't say it like that maybe they're not even aware of it like that maybe they've never even thought about it it's such a uh given for them but but these discussions in the last decade that we saw uh emerging that were saying no the Quran must always be primary it

must always be and I take it that's something that's also captivated you and you've gone on to really Express this argument as well isn't it so talk to us a bit about this yeah foreign I think now ultimately having now entered like let me treat this Quran as this as this the the one that I've memorized right and I've been growing up around this culture of memorizing let me let me connect with this right as it is and that is where I start really discovering this

personality of Allah by this personality of God which I know it has a very Mystic sounding phrase but it is something that I started noticing like I mean just you start off from right and you have this like you're having this like oh that there is so Allah gets angry right so Allah and then you go on there's Allah there's Allah um getting disappointed in these people they Allah being happy with these people right and and things like that throughout the Quran it was a very different discussion and having grown up

in in you know both um in the in the salafi Spectrum and the Sufi Spectrum right and and the various it was this discussion that I was seeing in the Quran and that's what I meant I was discovering things I didn't expect it to be there right and and these every single thing that was happening in the Quran they just kept asking why is he bringing it in right why is he bringing in the story of why is he bringing in the story of Suleiman who is like this you know peak of well he's literally saying right we've been given everything he's bringing him in but then he's not like even you have Suleiman right next to

Ayub right he's right like that it's just he why is he bringing in the wealthiest person and then the other person everything is taken away like he is he's bringing in and is teaching us about what you know there's this famous thing in the Bible that line right that a rich man will never enter Heaven until he passes through the eye of the eye of a needle I have the needle until a camera until a camel yeah yeah and that same phrasing it comes in the Quran right but it doesn't say rich man it says the arrogant

right the Arrogant will not pass it right until yeah the needle because and that's zeroing in more on the precise Factor because Rich what exactly yeah yes exactly Rich isn't a bad thing so it's like what I'm trying to say is when you're going through the Quran you're learning about Allah and what he likes and what he dislikes and the idea of the Quran is that if I drop you in like 2050 Germany like a place that you're not used to right 2050 Beijing you will be able to understand what will

make Allah happy here what will make Allah angry here right and that's what what's what I really see in the Quran is this that's the first thing I started seeing in the Quran and the second thing is just this relationship that Allah these emotional human emotional concept that Allah is mentioning like I talked about like how Ibrahim when he talks about Ibrahim al-islam he is uh he says

and he's saying that this Ibrahim is this uh he has a soft heart he's this compassionate being and he he does it in very interesting spots he does it one where your dad right where there's a story of Ibrahim who he is your daddy he's pleading uh to Allah for the and then the Bible it goes into a much deeper conversation where he's saying that oh God if there is 50 people in the city who are good spiritual City then Allah says there's no 50 people and then is there 40 people there's 30 people is there 20 people there's 10 people there's one person yeah and and so Allah says no the city

is unsavable but Ibrahim has a very soft heart he he complements his heart even though he's he's gonna do away with home Loot and in another place so we know the story of Ibrahim who ever since he leaves his father he's constantly always making Dua for his dad who is you know this certified catheter until that point he's not certified but he is you know making Dua for his father who's like you know I hope he comes back he's doing a stick far for him and Allah at one point he says you know Ibrahim he's not going to be saved but he once again complimented Ibrahim Ibrahim has this

soft heart and it's somebody excessively in one of the ways of looking at it somebody's excessively kind of uh it's almost like an onomatopoeia like oh you know like oh wow that's also one way of uh you know people adding to the the kind of linguistic meaning somebody that has this ah you know oh wow because it's really come from ah and the wow is obviously the missing letter being brought back that oh wow yeah and then even like just take the story of where he does the you know he makes that Feast for the angels that

come why why is Allah mentioning these points and and these very human points right and one of my favorite ones is where when when musa's mother puts Musa in the basket Allah the way he describes the feeling of the mother is that point right as as I mentioned like having seen my brother pass away and my mom and that obviously the feelings that she had the way he describes that feeling or the way he describes the feeling of Yahoo when he loses Yusuf it's just so phenomenal that Allah is you know he is really

getting The Human Experience obviously because he's a Creator but as a reader you're sometimes when we get into religious religious discussions we forget about that Realm and Allah keeps bringing those points and and it's like it's John right I used to take out pearls and rubies which is like those in a religious sense when you get into what like religion is all about sacrifice and you know Allah loves that but then you see Allah himself talking about these things that will be considered frivolous to a human or to a saintly mind but to him it's important enough to be disgusting yeah because the

imagery also you know your hello nafia I saw that these bracelets mean there that these golden bracelets these men are wearing and and and this is all an an incentivization it's uh it's there to but you're right if there's a uh like an ontology that's saying well isn't the dino meant to be about an asceticism a distancing from Dunya or from uh jewelry or from beauty or from then people naturally wouldn't be enticed to those things because they would be a yeah so it's it's quite a uh

an interesting balancing that is taking place yeah and it's like all of these things which is what I was saying you weren't if you come in with that mindset of you've already figured out what the Deen is about the dean is about asceticism or the dean is about you know following the law you come with all of these perspectives and you come into this but you're finding Allah talk about and especially second Jews right it is constantly Allah mentioning like exception to rules right so you'll have Ramadan and then he'll be like you can have relations at night or you're going to amrah but then if you have your hair right if you have a sickness then you

can do this and if you're fasting and if you can't do it then do this right it's just really challenging yeah your perspective like the Quran is this like it really stimulates your mind and it gets you to think the way Allah wants you to think is what I started noticing and specifically this part where in the first tenjos and this is where I think it has the biggest ramifications for our understanding of Deen um we're the first ten Jews it's pretty much Allah

like directly like for for a vast majority of the parts and we're on the like we as in the muhammadans were coming in right after Muhammad right we're on the side and he's having these straight on discussions with them yeah then he say look how you would do this when you were given a law or look how you did this and look and it's it feels like he's training the new generation on what to do with jorfic what to do with your right and it's like this if any if if this is the final book of God it's an amazing two things about these are amazing right one is that he's kept

um the previous completely intact enough for it to be a case study for us which is which is profound right so for example when he says that they say that we're the fire is only going to touch us for a few days right okay for the Jews and you go search you search that up today that the rabbi's relationship with heaven and held and they're pretty much still saying the same thing right you ask them about heaven and hell and they give a blurry answer and it's amazing how he's kept that intact as a case study for the future and then he we still have that critique memorized by millions

right okay that's fascinating I never thought of it from that perspective so yeah because there are there is an entire uh Branch really of Judaism that is um in a suspended state when it comes to the Agra and they don't really um they disengage mostly from the topic categorically and they don't deny but they don't clearly affirm it yeah and they yeah so there is like a blur yeah okay and it's fascinating to me

that it's you know from a point of view of a God who is he's ultimately powerful it's like it's protected like these case studies are protected and the critique is also protected it's you know what I'm saying it's it's fascinating that you have Christianity thriving you have Judaism thriving and then you have this book that is in one book critiquing points of views massive point of views and you're going through as I was mentioning that you are going through how is critiquing

um like or a a a a a way of them deriving sex and Judaism and in Christianity and he's saying you know bring your book bring your book let's take a look at it that whole discussion is fascinating and because it dictates how we're going to study the Deen I was going to say that so much of uh the first portion having this uh direct um kind of dialogical discourse with uh on

um yeah and and as so if one was to ask well why so much of it um as opposed to a few verses in one Surah or another well what are your thoughts on this because because that is a fascinating question it is it is a lot right yeah and when you're doing heaves and one of the things about doing heaves that is I'm eternally grateful for is that you start noticing patterns right especially when you're getting ready you have to you have to get you have to really get those patterns down otherwise you're gonna mess up in public right but you have to

get your oh yeah then Israel is coming later so you start noticing these patterns that are specific to surahs internally it's it's really fascinating that I think everyone has the opportunity to get into you start feeling the Quran you start you're entering into the pattern and like you just mentioned like they're having this non-stop discussion and and pretty heavy verses right and and not just critiques but also praise at the beginning of the seventh way the semi-holam

he's praising um how you will see that some from when they hear the truth say well tears will flow down their faces and right before that page you have where he's saying that you know or the Elites from them were cursed right on the tongues of dawood and yeah and it to me really seems like he is really getting this new generation right ready for now because I sent the last people books a revelation and they went a certain direction with

it so I sent them you know I send them Revelation through Torah and then they went in a certain direction and then I sent them you know in jail through Aisa right and when he even when he describes he says right and and this is when you look at and I he's such a fascinating I'm still a fascinating character because you see this his Direct like every Prophet is going to their people is directly going to the of right to go through Matthew you go through just the

discussions that they're having and it's such a and it's the one I recommend to all people I mean just the way that Allah says the curse they were cursed or right they were heavily critiqued by that wood and Arisa it's enough for us to go see okay what are they what is this thing and when you open up their own literature you see just Jesus going to his people and teaching them what it means to a people who have thick which is the most fascinating part right to a people who have and he's going to them and he's saying that where and all of his entire

discussion is where is your relationship with God you have the rulings but where's your relationship with God and a spiritual uh element you know with this verse that you said and just how how do you see because it says you know he teaches them but also that with Asa let's say or even us afterwards you've got the Torah the injeel and then the Quran afterwards in between obviously with Isa this mention of hikmah as well but oh would you see

these as so these These are defined as Revelation yeah broadly Under the Umbrella of Revelation but in the um their makeup of how they in their manifestation do you see these as entirely distinct I don't just mean in wording but in their kind of ontological nature so so the Torah for example is often seen or defined as the the law

yeah yeah and if you look at the Jewish uh Bible or the Torah or the you know if we're looking at the Tanakh and different things there's a lot of rulings and a lot of uh the actual ontological nature of the book of the scripture is very different now if we're taking a look at the injil which is often described as the gospel which is just then defined as good news because the question because one question is well what is the actual good news well what is the actual gospel because uh Jesus came with the gospel he came with the good news well what is it

because if we're going through uh you know whether it's Matthew Mark Luke or John and they're saying well and uh and Jesus Came Upon such and such people and they said to him oh you know teacher would and then he would respond with whether it's going to be Proverbs or he would ask them questions so the whole store or the narrative that Jesus came up uh upon a certain people who are like this this surely can't be the good news that's that's a description of what's Happening Now one may say well the good news is well what he responds with um

which often is proverbial and it's in Parables and it's you know he's explaining to them in these uh amphila and then you've got the nature of the Quran which is entirely different like the Quran is a almost like something that is recited it has a um it has a a rhythmic force with it it uh it creates so so it creates an it's not poetry but it's

equally about experience yeah and not just simply a a reading like a like a textbook reading just as just as a person who so for example when when when you read a poem or as Karen Armstrong said scripture explaining is is akin to the its impact is akin to the impact a person has if they are experiencing art uh there's an there's an experiential element that

can't be put into words like if I even and the Quran is not poetry but but to just say poetry as an approximation that people can understand what the experience is that if you hear a poem in a certain um language English because it doesn't follow metric kind of uh meat Styles anymore it has lost a lot of that but let's say Arabic or Urdu many other languages when there's a poem said it's not the it's not just the sum of the words like if I said a poem to you now it's not the moment you explain that poem to someone or you explain what

it says you convey the meaning but it loses the experience um and that's obviously the Quran is not poetry but the Quran has that has this powerful experiential effect where the words there is a there there there is a rhythmic force and they are said in a certain uh Mana syntactical eloquence to it that creates an experience though which is more than just the meaning yeah so how would you see because here the Quran when it's referring to look there

was a Torah there was an injeel there you know one may say there was hikmah there was there is the Quran to some people these are just all seen as books they were just all a but we know the very nature of the Jewish Bible is nothing like the nature of the Quran in its so yeah what are you you your thoughts on this it's fascinating the way that you were describing the Quran it in a way that it is very different than you know let's just take the Old Testament the New Testament right that's

the famous division now and we take Old Testament as like the Hebrew part right it was pre-jesus and the New Testaments post Jesus right we just take that and and we do start off with what you just said that these two just by their nature of preservation which the discussion always comes up is that they are this collection of human works and they say it proudly too right you ask them how is your book preserved and they're like oh this is over you know years and years of many different authors right 66 different authors are working into this and making this collection right that would be the equivalent of us taking our Quran Hadith

and and and our you know our proverbs and put our poetry and putting it into one collection that is pretty much how the Bible is presented now within it you zoom in and into like the Leviticus area right and you start seeing this this collection of laws don't need this this this this don't do this this rain it's a pamphlet of what not to do and now I do say that there's one interesting concept because if we're comparing these three right there's Old Testament New Testament and then you have the Quran and if you have Musa you have him

um ending his mission amongst his people in a way I mean they're still lost in the desert but it's still within his people he's escaped Egypt he's technically won right he's gained victory in the sense that he's with his people he has he's not dying at the hands of the enemy right and and the same thing with the prophet salallahu he is now ending his mission amongst the sahaba this thing is you know ending calmly in the sense and I say calmly in the sense that you're able to pass on the Revelation in a in a proper tying up way which I think the prophet saws is able to do is able to do but there's

something about Jesus it doesn't end that way right it ends in running it ends in you know whatever happens on the cross scene but that whole I mean the night before the Judas scene is happening and then from there on it's a blur biblically it's a blur um even right that and it's a blur even disciples like this blur right the disciples are like most of them are not there seeing so it becomes a blur and you don't have enough time to seal up this and you don't have the time to steal up in jail and I think from the way that you were describing it

um the Quran it's rhythmic nature it it really it seems like in this final Revelation it's now transcended above human efforts of keeping it pretty remarkable right when you said that there's it seems like there's this Aura of the Quran that is around right it's no longer books and and books was a huge part of keeping obviously at the oral tradition but they also had a traditional writing a lot and now no longer the final Revelation that I am sending down is not is going to be kept with it's going to be kept protected in the air

and and it is a it is a Quran it is a a reciting a recital it is something that is recited it's not um uh it's not just a reading you see because you know like you have in Psychology and you're having Gestalt psychology that the there are certain things that the whole is great like the whole of something is greater than the simple sum of its parts like I take uh like I take something and

the it's you see if I just place them as independent elements sure you understand them but that as a collective they have an ex an experience and this is and obviously and the reason I was saying poetry as an example is just because people often most people can't understand um the Quran most Muslims don't understand it so they're just hearing the experience through a second person uh experience so as a poor approximation well you one could explain well akin to the expression of as Karen Armstrong

says the expression of art scripture is akin to that or even when people hear uh in certain languages a poem for example um let's say we take something of I don't know of uh halip or of uh just as an example to for what it makes people experience um I don't know let's say halib says um foreign

that you know he's saying that I accept that you're not going to um intentionally ignore me or neglect me but by the time you do cast your attention on me I would have become dust now this not not this the explaining of it the the words like I say well this is what the person is saying and then there's the actual um experiencing what's being said which is greater than the sum of its parts it's greater than the individual words or if um as a poem I think I've read it before that um

speaking of death that let's say more that uh that death itself is an is an era of unconsciousness that more and that you see now this is a like a vault like a almost a plot twist what is being said in the second that you are seeing that well

oh that death is an era of of unconsciousness that that meaning that you will lose all sense of what is happening until you event you know until you finally come to your senses but when you explain it it doesn't seem to capture the the spirit of it now to see the frustration in you trying to explain it yeah but even if let's say somebody premeditated and they not off the cuff they actually translated and

but it doesn't have it doesn't capture it and this is this is poetry and obviously the Quran is something uh ex so exclusive now it has this style it provokes it uh it Rhymes it so Allah is saying that your your your meeting time your appointment is

you know it did it has that same tone and what you said it in yeah it has that yeah that is exactly the you know your appointment is dawn oh is Dawn not near but it it doesn't when you hear the actual it evokes this experiential awe uh that is more than just the words yeah there is a spirit and and an aura and all that is with it that is is kind of greater than the sum of its parts and yeah do you also find it from everything that you're saying do you

find it interesting how it is also accessible in its nature in the sense of if you look at the vocabulary of the Quran right it is very he is repeating a lot of words he's repeating there's a phrasings are a lot repeated you'll have a same phrasing um that is repeated in another place but it's going to have a different context because I mean I'm saying I'm just saying rhythmic context when it's around a certain place um and I guess what I'm trying to say is there seems to be

a comp it's calm it's complex but it's still accessible like I mean it keeps pointing out how clear we are how clearly we've written this right it's what do you think about that what do you think about the fact that is this immense and like you just said you see it I see that to me the the repetition in the Quran um well if whether that's thematic or um in terms of themes or whether that's in terms of wording and expression

um I think this in many ways mirrors in turn you know we are uh our entire life in many ways is repetitive you know it's the the the ultimately when you zoom out the themes in life that we are experiencing are repetitive albeit in a different expression you know whether it's going to be themes of complexity themes of struggle themes of Joy themes of interactions relationships

to run out of love songs never yeah it's fascinating that we are never and if we create a new language we'll have that whole experience all over again we will never run out of love songs we will and you see this especially in amongst film directors that they when they direct movies some of them just say the same story again and again in different movies they're all ahead they often do it's the same point meta narratives are often just the same thing if you think of it the meta narratives meta myths a handful of those if you really think

about it yeah love death loss right well I never do anything oh yeah you just have and it is remarkable what you're saying right there and you you have I think it's a Tolstoy who said that all great stories begin with one of two that uh a man sets off on a journey or a Stranger Comes To Town and and in essence that it's like you could just group almost most spectacular events and narratives in in just these two uh

formats it's yeah speaking of of movies and uh this is something you've had a great interest in isn't it uh studying movies we also study movies I'm also a movie critic how did you uh find yourself in this very fortunate position and what is this a thing where you study movies I mean film and filmmaking has been a huge part of my life always and I got really into like taking

it seriously and amongst this journey as Allah makes things happen right you you go towards something and he starts opening doors because you tie this into you tie this into your Quran studies in a way the whole uh this whole kind of experience so yeah what's going on here I as I got into studying films you know when you start studying it anyone who has they look up thousands of uh screenwriting books and you know how to write a story there's Joseph Campbell's you know hero's journey like and there's all of these things and then I came across this one uh teacher uh he

has this book he helped out in Pixar you know Toy Story all of those and he helped them out story consultant his name is Brian McDonald highly suggested for people to search him up and he has and I began like this apprenticeship under him where you know he made me go through classic films to really see what's happening and he has he also has a book called The Golden theme where you talk about you know that there's this all grapes stories have this golden theme within it which is that um you know the whole concept of Good and Evil right so usually every story and then he um took us through you know how every

story system you know beginning middle and end and sort of leading up to a point and going through those classic films like we're starting from you know 1940s 1950s the black and white era and um you start noticing that when they're especially this era this is pre-film school by the way this is pre when film school was not invented so we were just discovering the camera in the world so these people are just coming off from oral tradition right you have the stage and oral tradition and they just got the camera so right now it's not about cinematics it's not any of that it's just about telling a story and the story

that you have um these people telling like you have Billy Wilder you have Rod Sterling like I wrote Twilight Zone Planet of the Apes right and you have these people telling these stories and the people inspired by that generation are pretty much telling stories of you know the power of Truth and the horrors of falsehood right you take a story like Billy Wilder's really famous director you wrote the apartment and and you know Sunset Boulevard um he his the story is that he's writing are all about you know selling your soul the dangers of selling your soul to

climb up the ladder yeah Hitchcock alternative I was writing these movies about you know taking in um you know staying wary of dangerous situations Bad Company and all of that right you're going into Spielberg now comes in he's just coming off of these people and he's writing you know ETA Schindler's List you know Saving Private Ryan he's talking about and you'll notice and that's what I was mentioning these directors write one thing so Spielberg if you look into Saving Private Ryan and you're looking to send this list is all that one concept that one individual life matters no matter what it is right that's the point he's ending in theater player Ryan the 20s ending in Schindler's List and that

thing is just so remarkable and this and this is one of for me personally it's one of my biggest proofs of God it's the fact that stories have this ability that you know transcending culture time and space right you can watch something like The Godfather which is this Italian you know Mafia thing right and it's a story about this guy who's uh thinks he's better than his you know he's not gonna turn out like a family just because he's passion proper Don colione and then he literally tells them the beginning of the movie he says to his girlfriend right that um I'm not like my family

right and then you go towards the end of the film and he's worse than his family could ever be yeah right so but in that many ways that is the repetitive Narrative of life isn't it with everyone the struggle and the people are almost doomed to to be caught up in what they forever are trying to escape and they become the very monster that they you know that that same theme that you see when when you're you become the very thing that you are trying to uh be weary of yeah yeah you become the villain it's

like and these are these are a set of tragedy stories that are so chilling um it's it's terrifying and and these directors throughout you know different religions and cultures have dealt with these very topics like topics of um you know going down a wrong path and going down a right path and it's just and we've been doing it and we're going to continue doing it and the fact that that's gonna stay it's just such a uniting factor right like you can have a film that's written in a different language and you can your

heart can connect to it yeah that says a lot about that but as but the theme is fundamentally just very um it is a very traditional and common theme ultimately that they don't really these meta themes if I mean by that not the actual theme The Meta theme that they're just very they're pretty much just a few obviously yeah right it's fascinating it's a fascinating Surah because Allah does this pattern where he's having you know he's

having the story of Musa the story of Adam and the story of Noah and the story of Luth and he's doing this and there's this pattern that he keeps repeating right that we send them their brother Noah and he said fear God and they say no connection then we send them the brother uh and he said fear God and they didn't and that is he does that four or five times right and then he ends that Surah and he says look at the Shahara right they Venture into every Valley

I don't he doesn't need to do that I'm just gonna keep hearing what are you what do you see in that like as in what what that um the kind of juxtaposition of these narratives of yambia coming down and really the the theme being quite um um just being similar really yeah repetitive and then suddenly being juxtaposed yeah verbatim in fact and seeing the announced

tell us yeah what's the what what leap straight out at you with that this Surah I think especially being into the Arts and for anyone who is an artist or aspiring artist this Surah Islam must read for what Allah and his relationship with art I think because he there is this repetition that Allah is doing throughout the entire Surah in which it's like we were just talking about the directors and there's one so truth is not truth is not um different every other day right truth is going to be consistent throughout it's going to be

an axiom so it's going to be singular yeah and when he goes towards the end and he talks about have you not seen the right like what those he's saying that the qures and the rest they say that he's having you know jinns descend down and he's you know he's having but he's like compare that to you compare this poetry that you're saying compare that to your poetry look how you trying to be you know shock culture or whatever you're going into every that's I mean a lot of people have interpreted what that means it's a very interesting phrasing right it can go many ways but from a physical point of view that you do not see them go into every Valley and that they are lost that they are lost in

these valleys and they're lost in these values and you see that that to get ahead especially in the Arts you do have to do something shocking right you have to do something shocking and he says and then he ends off it doesn't end with that Ayah it then ends up with saying except those who believe and they do good and Allah is happy with them he's putting an exception to the those who believe they're going to be straight and consistent which is amazing because you can you there's a canvas of creativity yeah within good not only does it work always right it you you it's endless like what

you're talking about like love songs yeah which is a very beautiful emotion we're never gonna run out of it that's yeah because these poets you see allies saying that they are you know they are bewildered beguiled be you know wandering lost confused in every what valley that you can imagine you know you attribute this other man this this greatness to them that they you know have countless uh stanza and lines dedicated to oh I was in this battlefield

I was cutting this guy down my spear was like this my sword was like they weren't even doing that you you know it's like the thing about YouTube I think you know he has Straight Out of Compton right and then you look into and he goes to private school right he starts off his when he was growing up so it's like the thing that you're saying is not matching up with yeah because and I remember there was this uh Thing Once with there was an example of I think Obama where he him and his uh was it Michelle they had this photo but it was taken with almost this uh uh somewhat of

an impoverished uh background backdrop and and it gave just the the the I don't know whether it was the filter or the actual thing but gave this impression since it was a younger photo almost to allude to that they grew up in impoverished backgrounds without saying it and people are like oh wow you know these uh the black struggle and these people and then there was these articles saying look let's just remind you these people had an absolute uh distinguished upbringing very you know a crazy education and that they they don't really identify Obama doesn't identify with the the struggle of the regular

folk out there but just uh it's this the same thing of what imagery can do to people it speaks you know thousands of words that these poets who are saying all this stuff um and but but not to just s not to say that there's no hate in these things like like you said that but there are people little Latina there are people that do you know they they uh that they do good that these that there are certain there there are people that Inspire that motivate that you know it's not to say that because some people

understood from this that oh in Arabic or in Islam is a negative thing or that these um you know that this is something evil almost like poetry it's something and that's entirely not true because the prophet himself said that you know that there is uh profound wisdom that comes from poetry and in sahil bukhari you have a Hadith that they would often sit in the Masjid right throughout the night just yet just going through the Poetry of

jahiliyah and just taking its lot fun enjoying and having that experience and uh so it's not a and the prophet yeah I'll yeah in that in that in that verse that you said right where is and then he's going in the exception that not all of them like he did like we talked about when he was doing with the with with not all of them right he does

this thing often where he's saying reminding us of the axioms that is important that to him which is not that sure that is wrong but it's just that the the the the gravitas of the subject is something else it is right now we are speaking of revelation we are speaking of existential uh crises we are speaking of it's not it's just that it's like saying yeah you know this is not the time you know it's not that poetry it's not that poetry doesn't have good in it but this is not the time don't compare that to what we're talking about

yeah you know this this is this is something so immensely spectacular and Majestic sure that that is you know don't forget those are people that misuse that that just build a false Legacy they create Wars with it they just boast with it there's just and they they spread all these Tales spread all these romances with it which are not you know the tarasul and the the of uh whether it's going to be Imran saying you know I had this woman on that night and that woman on that night and then I had a group of these women that were by the lake and you know it's famous

and so it's it's it's like these people you know don't compare right now the topic is serious we're talking about revelation now wow so I see that you know this is a a rather fascinating mix this whole thing you're inside having uh been somebody that has keenly studied um films cinematic kind of experience uh classical movies and then with that Insight also um having studied the dean studying

Islam studying the Quran you know whilst you were studying and even and this isn't just exclusive to whilst you're studying you could include right now and even in your teaching what are some um some challenging topics that you feel hmm yeah so so some things some things that uh you know have have kind of uh you've had to Grapple with or maybe you're still grappling with or maybe did in the past with with this yeah that would be interesting to know

whilst going through the Quran studying the Quran teaching the Quran you're saying yeah like your whole journey because you you come at it from a different angle you're obviously somebody very focused on the centrality of the Quran you you teach in you have uh institutes that you've set up online you're teaching um you're analyzing the the themes The Meta themes of the Quran uh and then you've got contemporary you know back and forth or are there certain topics certain themes that you find really um uh and it doesn't have to be mean that you're still grappling with them or you

find that maybe yeah but you did you see these as grappling themes and topics in relation to the Quran yeah I mean one thing and I'm going off just the film right yeah um when you have like I was talking about these few names I was talking about Rod Sterling Billy Wilder you know that era um it's around the 1950s era these are these are directors that are coming back um from World War II they've seen death in the face they've seen death all around them there's this proximity to the purpose of life as you can say right

and and just seeing like if anyone sees Twilight Zone they'll see that this is directed by a man who's really come close to face to face with the reality of life right that we're all gonna die and how we're dealing with it and our kindness to each other you you start seeing this in there later on obviously as our distance from Death then our movies become more convoluted they become no plain to be some just like abstracts that in that area was an abstract they all knew what they had to say they all knew that you know be kind to each other be gentle and don't sell your soul you know be careful all of these things they're really real

you'll describe you're describing them as a you would feel a spiritual experience okay would I say that yes yeah yes and that's where it becomes really interesting right when Allah says whatever you call him by the best names belong to him right and you start really noticing that amongst the world and and that's one thing that has really been surprising about the Quran to me which has been that you know this Allah is not this Arab God you know for us

there is this Godly experience that people are having all throughout they're having all throughout then what is it about this book what what is becoming that you know that was just a way that's right that when they when they hear the rasool and tears flow but what is it that's becoming a barrier for the vast majority of people that the whole idea that Allah is saying right what you just said right now where these directors are feeling this thing that could be as he's saying guidance for those that have taqwa now taqwa is outside of the Quran uh we we know that

very clearly's experience of taqwa of God Consciousness exists outside of this book I mean if the first the beginning chapter saying this this is guidance for those who have to the assumption is you already have it and now you're coming to this book right and uh and it's not and it's not saying uh in that particular verse that it's not specifying who the little Muslim yeah it's not it's leaving it to you know you approach this you know whoever comes you know whoever comes with that heart

and mind of that Consciousness that mindfulness they will find in it guidance yeah and I mean even if you go to that famous verse that we always cut we stop it there but that's not one of the words ends as well which is remarkable because explicitly in his words it does seem like he's saying from amongst them are those that have Iman it would be better if they become muhammadan right if they become into this new era

which is it's remarkable because the way Allah talks about the outside world it's very different than what we often talk about and it's you treat people differently I guess and this is one thing that I've discovered you treat people differently if you think they have a chance of getting into heaven yeah I was just seeing is there uh uh a little like here I I hope there isn't but I was just seeing on uh as you were responding I'm just gonna press refresh here whilst we're doing that so we should just no no no just one second I'm just gonna

click refresh people so so as to to ensure that the Shirk is not buffering right one second and that's right brought us right back so um yeah you were saying sure so okay I wow I see um and you were mentioning certain things that do you find any uh people presenting any uh topics as um oh and they could be I mean I it

could be from uh whether it's contemporary issues or other things that or maybe it's not maybe it's a perspective um that that are certain um um you know themes to to Grapple uh with I as an example I've had people um I know this is an old discussion question a metaphor within the Quran now sure but not just in the sense just actual metaphor the presence of metaphor

not in the sense of Tasha bohat uh sure I mean one could interpret the verse to mean that way but just metaphor and some people have found so so there are certain understandings um that um so there were certain people traditionally that felt there was no metaphor in the Quran and I believe that um if I recall correctly I think ibnatemia tried to argue uh in that direction uh and I believe Josiah may have tried to support him and

and I think to some extent uh uh many of the salafia leaned that way in feeling that the Quran does not have or should not really have much metaphor but I feel that you see metaphor is it's so like it's in in a complex manner it is so bound into language and human consciousness yes you can't even take it out yeah because you couldn't

um like if you just think of language itself we wouldn't be able to communicate without metaphor um it is so um intrinsic and the fact that we pick it up so naturally uh and and it doesn't just stop there you see because metaphor I I speak of um our relationship to God as well by metaphor so as to say well um so for example God is light God is love

that in Allah in the larger meal Allah is beauty uh Allah uh Allah he's he's light that these are very profound uh Avenues by which we we connect to Allah we take the the meaning of the Quran it it always it it continues to strike us with new uh perspectives to with by

adding things to our daily lives to adding things to our uh our fresh experiences as we recite the Quran this is often done by metaphor and and and the reason I I find this really fascinating is I contrast this with I'm not sure if you're familiar with the in lacanian Psychology they they have this understanding of metonymy and metonymy is taken from Linguistics in the sense that you have certain um I guess it could be ironically seen

as a listen uh of majas it is where something is associated with something but it's not actually of the thing and often an example is like saying the crown in reference to the king or the Monarch or the pen in reference to the scholar and often uh because something is placed with it by association it it carries this um like almost substitution or this connection with it so people often their relationship with God is a metanimical one that they see that they are so for example that their

relationship to God is by his laws it is by his rituals it is by his uh his Commandments it is by his akam it is by the fact that we worship Him by It Is by these so these are the um this is how we how we we bind ourselves to God we connect ourselves through a metanimical uh through a metonymic procedure or a metanimic bond now that's one way but the the and the other way is by metaphor in trying to

understand God as uh Allah is light Allah is love Allah is these things are not your relationship to God is not I'm not I'm not trying to disparage or belittle but it's greater than just it's his laws his uh as great as they are as great as his worship is his rituals are it's to him through his asthma through his his uh his Mercy he is compassion he's all he is knowledge he's all of these things it gives a little I I feel that these

things can often draw like people can find even though they're ultimately it's it's a it's a path to God but people can find themselves sometimes uh so let's say they're taking a metonymic path the reason I'm saying this is uh they can sometimes inadvertently Maybe you know so uh so to speak that missed the trees for the woods almost in Misty so people get so caught up and in the um the ferc or in the akam or in the

rituals so as to take them to be the ultimate goal in and of themselves and and as great and spectacular as they are and they are from Allah but Allah is much greater than these akam they are not the end so you find people often getting plagued by waswasa getting plagued by OCD getting plagued by I was speaking to just somebody yesterday my uh uh a client in my patreon um kind of session that who

had almost a a spiritual Tourette's where he would at times feel that he's blasphemed like I've oh uh did I say now I need to say strafar I need to say I need to say stuff or people would feel that I've not uh you know this this Salon is not being done in this way or this would always not been they are being plagued by the rituals because they're the the connection to God is not one through metaphor it is one through

metonymy it is one through and I think don't it's fascinating that you brought that up because going back to what we were talking about the difference between these as it is right Old Testament New Testament Quran it seems like you know if you're going if you want to be in that route you could just focus on Leviticus only right in in the in the Bible you can just focus on that and if you want the

so you should have come through um foreign [Music] it's coming through now as a a good connection so uh right yeah so we is back people uh yeah so yeah sorry coming back to uh with a slight Interruption there but you were speaking about uh you you went forward from the

whole concept of metaphor and art and then you went into um your explanation yep you were saying so yeah I was saying that I was saying that if someone wants to have that just like you know GitHub or ruling Parts you could just focus on the Leviticus the Old Testament part and you can leave that out you can read because it is the Bible is sequential in the sense that here's the laws and then here's the history and here's the you know the stories and the Quran is very different in the sense that it's sort of forcing you to go like to be like you have to go through the metaphor to even learn your

effect and then you have to while in the midst of your metaphor you're also learning your Fitness like these two things are gelled in right so like even if you if you take Genesis in the Bible it begins literally when Allah creates the universe but you take and it is starting off with it's not starting off with the Adam and Eve story it's starting off with Allah having a separate discussion and then going in it's as if he's having he's forcing us to look at the metaphors because that is how you will get to know God like you have to look at it and I think sometimes

what happens is when a person does not have this relationship with the Quran uh am I dropping in no no I can hear you loud and clear yeah I'm saying that a person when they don't have this relationship with the Quran they are missing out on a lot of matter so you can know you can study the fifth and the know you know the rulings the general rulings of Islam but when you miss out on the metaphor and like you said the metaphors are crucial in understanding Allah and I think that is also what Jesus does when he comes to the people he is

speaking in metaphors yeah because he is like you have all the laws you guys he literally says that I have not come to abolish the laws you have them all right it's amazing yeah because Jesus is because Jesus is associated with metaphors speaking in Parables speaking in these uh metaphorically and he's thereby also associated with uh the ruach the the on you know Consciousness and the spirit the the reaffirming this Bond of I guess metaphor and spirit I never thought of that until you just

said it wow back to what we're saying when Allah describes him he says coming with him okay so like he all he he's well versed in the laws but now he has to go to these people who know the law really really well that hair is who Allah is because sometimes and it's remarkable when you when you're speaking about uh a certain individuals you know that we've always talked to we do have this like religious OCD there's a verse in the Quran and Allah says right and that line

is such a remarkable line because that line can seem taboo to say in a saintly point of view because you're like oh no matter what happens you know I'm gonna have ultimate and here Allah saying as much as you can have right and that is such a crucial piece in understanding Allah like can you like what do you think like taking out because how do you think that will Implement I I love what you're saying uh if you think about it you take the akam or the Ayatul akam

even the example you gave of Leviticus one could take the verses of the akam and whether they are popularly given at just 500 verses of the Quran uh as many of them for Serene will say and you know you'll see Arabi and others speak about these the Ayatul akam and some reducing them like reducing it to I think um something like a hundred and whether it's between 130 to 150 verses only of the Quran but of even if you go with this 500 number of six thousand two hundred plus verses of

the Quran which are none uh you know law centered that the the bulk of the Quran what is it evoking in you what is it it's all you know if it's not law it's it's it's about that experience is in the spiritual experience it's about it's like nourishing that consciousness so yeah I I you know when you were saying that I was thinking yeah you've also uh it just occurred to me I thought yeah um

which is and even if you take like it's really cool you take the beginning and the ending of the Quran right it's like we ask for hidayah if you're going from the point of view that the Quran is one coherent teeth you're starting Allah he says here it is you go through this entire thing and at the end at the end we're still like well that was a bit like we um you know we're that's amazing I still can't do it which is it's amazing because if you look at that Adam and Elise story right it is just that thing you have this being iblies who has he's

he wants to be perfect so his attack is being perfect he's in competition with God right so when he messes up he's like Wait I messed up I can't mess up I'm perfect that means you must admit so one of us must have messed up I can't mess up so it's you right and it's amazing yeah the story of Adam where he's like yeah no I messed up because this you know symbolically this coming back to this metaphor symbolically the lesson that that that there is that imperfection

in a way is perfection that it is and trying to seek perfection in and of itself would be an imperfection because you're trying to be God and you can't be it's that it's well remarkable it's remarkable and the I always says which I think is one of the most remarkable verses right who can forgive except Allah which because it's like and I think that's the crucial human you know piece like if you even if you like

a look at the happy Fabian story it's so amazingly done because he's like he he gets rid of his brother but then he's dying inside and Allah saying who can get rid of that um and ultimately like you go to the Quran he's giving you all of this you know but at the same time he's saying yeah but you're still my well um you're still my servant but you're not gonna coming to the the coherence part you said that there's uh you know between let's say in Fatiha if you're taking it as we are beginning

and then and has begun and we're going right through it right till the end and it's still you know this uh that you've got these and this was but even in that there is a sense of but it's okay yeah you know because in a way look you will never be able to do it I guess in in like you have in the verse of saying uh of polygamy you know that uh you know

you're never gonna categorically be able to do it it's not uh but but I guess it's it's in that human Frailty is a beauty because it was always meant to be frail it was always you know there's this this this weakness that we will always have but that weakness is a reminder of our dependence upon God because it's bound isn't it because the the because it reminds us of the dependency it seems like when you go through the

front as that is what he's ultimately looking for he's looking for Purity right we'll use Zaki him right yeah he's looking for Purity but it seems like the ultimate form of Purity that he's actually looking for is that initial scene where it's like yeah without you foreign and it's amazing because shaytan tries to knock that out right he tries to knock out you know he tries to knock out hope he tries to knock out hope and fear with Allah says

right have both of these things but he tries because if you knock out one of them there's one thing I've been obsessing over these past few months is this idea of you know alhamdulillah in one way or another wants to knock out one of these because you knock out one of them and then you have the line in your head right if I if you're if I remove your hand foreign nothing will happen right if I remove your step far you will say either way is the same thing my life like take Suleiman in a youth right when he says

he has everything he has this thing yeah but he is he is trying to you see in a way that what it's reminding you that you are that that is trying to be displaced or replaced with a of the Dunya you know the shaytan Yahoo like he will intimidate you with a but but this is a different because if we because if you think about it there is an impoverishment which is our impoverishment because there is a Reliance on God

and that is a beauty because that is a dependency that actually empowers us but it could be replaced with an impoverishment of the Dunya the thought of oh my God you know of this this is a different you know this this poverty the one that Allah says the shaytan is intimidating you by yeah he's he's replacing the equation using the same tool but the one that has Beauty he's replacing it with a Dunya which is which is is a negative it's not a positive because that just it plagues

us the same thing he does to Adam right he says to Adam don't you want to live forever yeah the the dependency is being knocked out yeah on God yeah because that's it and in a metaphorical sense one could say that uh if this the shaytan is refusing as some people some Mystics have said that he's refusing to bow down to uh Adam in an objection that that he's not

worthy that in a way that returning to this this this pristine you know some people say he was that I only bow down to God in a way that you know that there is this that this nature should be absolute not weak and you know we are you know some mystics say say that shaytan was was beguiled by histo heat you know in the sense that he he was such a I I don't bow that you know that I am so firm in in my existence

that I I only I bowed out to God but I don't bow down to anybody else they by forgetting that this is the this is the the this is the the guidance from God as in this is in this Frailty there is a beauty the in this dependence there is independence but he's he's beguiled that that know that it should be so perfect forever it should be you know that some some Mystics explain it like this and that that's an amazing uh uh taste to it as

well yeah so and it's it's interesting because our relationship with people especially when we get into Dean is often looking for God within people right we're looking for that Perfection within people and you never find it you'll you will but only fine uh shortcomings with people there's this film which I always recommend to people and if you could ever check it out too what's called Amadeus it's a rare film it won a lot of awards it's amazing about this point it's you have you know Mozart yeah yeah yeah right so the story

is Loosely as fictional but that you had this guy named salieri who was a composer he was the king's composer he was the best right he was a king's composer and he had given his life to Chastity he had given it to all for one thing he said I pray to God that I will give myself to you you make me the best composer in the world right you let me do your music and I give myself to you got it that's how the movie begins then you have this and he's doing this thing and then there's a sound of a child party right he comes in this is like this teenage kid nothing just loose with the girls

everything right loose language laughing out Trail but when he plays the piano this is Mozart now when Amadeus when he plays it it's amazing like it's clearly better than salieri's and this whole movie is about how this guy ends up in the mental hospital because he is like I was I was chased to God he was gonna give me we had a deal I was gonna be chased and he was gonna give me but he get instead and just this famous scene in the movie where he you know basically throws the cross and he says I you gave the thing that you're supposed to give me perfect right but you gave it to this

messed up kid and it's just an amazing um like portrayal of this shaytanic phenomena and you know he is a thought chair uh there's something in um in Psychology it's it's especially in something known as archetypal psychology with people like uh James Hillman who who speak of and he's influenced by people like Carl Young and uh and others as well and so a bit of Corban and but the the the the so so this is how we

often see things that let's say you've got a child and this child is now um I don't know he's shy he's timid um and people will say well um or he's as you mentioned with Mozart you know he's completely um unbefitting but then he goes on to becoming something so spectacular and people will say well many psychologists uh will say well well it's natural you so Hillman gives the example of this uh great Matador this you know this bull fighter who as a boy he's very shy and timid of him

uh would do nothing but hide behind as a boy his mother's apron because of the daunting future that awaits him and in a way that the future is intricately uh causing the past and it's it's it's so spectacular I mean I just find it like you know as a as a thought and you see I wonder I want to share this that if one was to read some parts of even the uh the stories in the Quran that you see uh like the journey with Ritter like we spoke of Musa where

uh they are now building a wall for the for these little boys uh because of what will happen in the future that the future is shaping their past you see that the boys will grow up to to do this it's it's there's a cause and effect but in Reverse but obviously unbeknownst to people like we wouldn't see it we would see the arrow of time going in this direction but what if you know in a world in a dimension where time is but irrelevant that the causes lie in you know in what is yet to come

that one could say the story of Musa being placed on this stream of water with turbulence to reflect this this greater turbulence that is yet to come in life and uh you know there's just so many ways in with so much Majestic um uh you know kind of uh ex poetic expressions of and manifestations within these um Within These verses and and the narratives we're finding but yeah but I

I I just when you said Mozart and as a little boy the struggle and one could say well that would be uh well that you would do that you would be completely bewildered if you knew the glory that was yet to come um just just a almost a uh a reverse directionality of cause and effect but unbeknownst to us in this world it's I just thought I'd you know you reminded me so yeah I thought I'd share that but wow that is which is a really I mean you have to have

further thought into thinking that right yeah it is uh it's a practice in seeing the Unseen of seeing far away which I think is what shaytan as you were saying comes at least comes in a block yeah you're peeking into the into the end scene yeah yeah I mean one could say you know you could see verses that we are the verse that uh that we are somehow um extracted spiritually or by Consciousness and manifested

that we are taken out of Adam and we exist you know and certain things happen amongst them Allah says you know that you say Allah but we are half Hill you see but it's just that yeah we're not you see in a way what if we are seeing or we that there are certain realities but playing uh backwards that you have um you know there's this Hadith that um and it's questioned I'm sure you know

this this discussions around it uh uh is this Hadith that Adam sees into the future um he sees all you see he sees what will be of his progeny he sees Humanity you see because the irony is that he didn't know this that from and have an eternality but that eternality was his like it was Humanity was his legacy and he sees all of them and it says he's

so wowed by them and he sees uh in this particular Hadith he says he sees dawood and for some reason he's so infatuated with this uh this this individual he says who who's who's that you know there's something about that say oh that that is one of yours this Offspring and uh his name is dawood and oh really how long will he live um and he says well you know oh he'll only get a certain time really that it uh and in this you know in this and I I see this as a metaphor once again this beautiful tradition where he says really

is that it you know give him some of my life look at the you know from an element of compassion and lot that the ultimate sacrifice that you are giving away some of your very life to this offspring that you've not never met but there's you can see from the future that he exists and you feel that oh his life is not enough there's so much more for him to achieve and in this story it says uh in this Hadith that uh he says give him at least 40 years of my life and it says that when the angel of death

approaches Adam yeah honestly it's a beautiful tradition from the lessons the metaphorical lessons that one can take that he says uh he says he says but I've got time left I've got at least another 40 years and they say no but you gifted that to and he says he says yeah I don't know what you're talking about he says that his progeny also be became one of denial you know it says uh he he he he denied on his progeny there forth tonight that

he says I don't know what you're talking about he says why would I do something like that it's amazing this conflicted cook you know of insan is us this is uh do you see when you say see into the future do you now that you're talking about it and it's crossing my mind what do you say seeing into the future is a form of Hope do you think hope and seeing into the future are these synonymous why not because I I tell you that's a practice and seeing into the future and that's why it's so dangerous to shaytan because what if God could

forgive me like what if what if life can get better yeah it defeats materialism immediately well what if I was sold our Consciousness is so you see we are told in a Hadith that we are constantly so intertwined with an Angelic realm that there are so many angels that works so to speak um you know that are the safeguarding US protecting us that they are you know there's also moreana that there's an let's say there's an angel Whispering

good you know uh the the good guiding us always this kind of guardian angel and these things what's fascinating I'll tell you what's fascinating is uh you know Henri koban who studied a lot of and became an uh uh a Mystic within the Islam or especially academically within the Islamic tradition was so fond of the Islamic tradition and especially and he has this whole thing on angelology and he said uh it caught my attention because he said he said angels in Christianity and Judaism are hmm he said by angels in

Islam are so fascinating and you think well really why and and he speaks of what if there is a different realm in which these angels operate in ways um that that are so intricately bound with us but we wouldn't understand like what if our intuition are these intimations of angelic manifestations what if our inspiration is this uh these uh these gentle Whispers what if our great ideas

are from this this this guidance that is coming to us you know it's like as um halib says that he says um in his poem that uh he says he says that these topics these come to me from the rape that the the sound that the pen makes is actually the whispering of angels to me that this this angelology that what if that that these things in this sense

like you said hope what if hope is is this kind of um this Angelic whisper that we carry with us that as metaphorically so as to speak I mean I'm speaking in a in a realm of um in a metaphor here as well but this that we don't um obviously we don't understand these things we see them like like in a way and I was explaining this to somebody in a discussion yesterday as well we're having this great discussion that what if like the way on a computer you have multiple programs arms running but they connected

but they could be connected but when you're on one program you don't like I could be typing something into a um into Excel but it's also simultaneously appearing in Microsoft Word and it could be like these things are connected even if you don't see them that there are um that that what we see in this realm in this Dimension may but be a shadow of Something From Another Dimension just as the shadow on the ground in a 2d world is but yeah the the shade from it is but

the shape of a different dimension which is 3D and entirely different and it's casting you know it's it's creating this Shadow which in a 2d world is an entirely different manifestation so these things you know they they sometimes take my they make my thoughts Wonder I think um we talk about the the mother of Musa right in Canada

she would have basically lost it if we had not heard a lot together yeah like that's that's a divine intervention what you're saying and these are the metaphors that I think whether you go into the nitty-gritty or like you're you know or you get into the simplistic I think the metaphors the power of these metaphors is that it lets you appear and it the metaphors give you hope which in turn make you strong I mean I it is remarkable and something about you know Monica and it always fascinates me that Christianity the way that it's spread in Islam the way that it's spread

right and I mean we can Judaism is in that too because it's spreading through Christianity right and what is it in what is in these books that let people in very impoverished situations give them strength what is within it and usually it's hope yeah that spread like wildfire that you know I think there's this line from a film that when the little guy doesn't the little guy does big things when he doesn't know he's a little guy

I like that yeah it's true it's true well and that and that is our perception to us isn't it we are often held back by our own mind by our own limitations that the greatest enemy is but the ego that the self you know I'm just even in that very statement that when he doesn't realize but is it even a realization that he is a little guy because in essence he maybe he never was a little guy but that was the the perception superimposed

on him of this dimension of this realm and that's why I think the such that comes in and in all this entire context the president that becomes this incredible peace right the the yeah yeah right in this entire conversation I was like yeah I don't know I'm just go down right the simplistic nature of this stuff is just like wow

The Narrative the archetypal narrative that one uh learns from of Adam it is so honestly I it is one that I deeply love it's amazing it is I did which is that scene that I couldn't talk about anything more it's just it's just amazing what's that verse about Adam that we uh you know asthma that we um you know about Adam that we

that we did try him or we did but uh but we didn't find him um one of determination or we didn't find him um right let me just bring this up now it's gonna be on my mind I think it sort of Taha is it Adam isn't it that one right there let me see um uh where is the oh here is uh

yeah that's it it's uh what's the verse number it's surataha 115. probably you know oh we we took a deep Covenant with Adam before but he forgot you know he didn't have a uh we didn't find him of resolute determination but he still was spectacularly great for who he was and he was in his own

imperfect way perfect which makes you imagine we have that you know blessed quality upon us with other people imagine what they would do that oh this guy sucks but he still has maybe something in him it's true it's true you know we we have that magic within us that that Breath of God as if it were um you know in us that we something magical about each and every one of us

and that verse yeah so this arcid typo narrative that we uh find with the story of Adam it is I I find it just so very dear to me it really always just has me uh because there's just so many layers to it always so and that's I think going back and talking about what we were talking about throughout the whole session which is that it's forcing you to go through this you cannot skip in the Quran you can't skip this part right like you have to go through these stories

to get to the film um which by the time you get to the thick how does that impact your effect you know wow you know what wow what a seriously I've really thoroughly enjoyed and loved this uh discussion sure um you know just right from the your journey into what what inspired you about the Quran going on to teaching the Quran why the centrality of the Quran the kind of uh difficulties that you found um in society or the challenges and the

figures that inspired you right into the themes and the nature of the Quran like when Allah addresses for example as an example a dialogical expression as a means to teach us uh right through to the themes and The Meta narratives that appear in life and we also see uh reflected within the Quran and how they can teach us uh down to movies and how even movies speak of these uh metanarratives and and then the concept of which all tie into the deeper understanding of consciousness of

metaphor sorry which is so important and whether it's art movies language or whether it's the unconscious mind itself or Consciousness uh coming right through to once again being this this you know this speaking about why we maybe you know behave the way we do in our lives whether it's going to be uh some people may say what is cause and effect or how how are we how is the roar communicating how are we communicating how we subliminally communicating is their inspiration is their hope um and these very things with font we

find anchored in the Quran and the narrative so just coming right back to that just wow just I I want to say shukran it has been spectacularly beautiful yeah finally made it happen and it's worth it honestly I've I've loved it I hope you know it's been of some meaning to people you know it's sometimes it's just it's like it comes back to that saying I guess of uh gelatin or Rumi that you walk and the path appears that sometimes in just dialogical um Communication in our dynamic

so many things unfold that we don't um you know it and in that is a beauty that it's not so premeditated it's not so by Design it's just the organism the organic kind of flow of it is mesmerizingly beautiful so shukran I want to say to you uh sheriff for really taking the time out for sharing your thoughts uh perhaps me and shout out to Shafiq for introducing us both in this and it's like Lafayette for having me yeah Shafiq there look Shafiq just made a comment is that shafiko is that

another Shafiq but either way shukran uh uh I was once again I was encouraged by Shafiq and reminded that why have you not got this Mind Trap yet with Sheikh Nabil and I was like damn I gotta make that happen there was a bunch of stuff going on over the new year you know the Christmas holidays the New Years some travel uh different places going to Pakistan coming back but alhamdulillah I'm really glad we did this um it's it's it's it's the beginning of inshallah many more to come so so shukran before we we wrap up people who

want to connect to you uh what would you advise um um take it away you can find me on ecra.life that's usually the easiest way um or you can email me Nabil ikra.life there you go people Nabil dot live and I will share some of the websites your website it's also with the double rab.com where you speak about your courses your kind of your your motivation to inspire people about the the really the sanctity of the Quran its centrality its guidance it's you know

just its beauty so you you've got that you've got uh uh you've got a few websites haven't you I think one is Zen less was it Zen less dot I thought wow what I mean dealing with philosophies all right Western philosophy this time oh wow we should have brought that into the that's in another discussion we're going to speak a lot about that yeah so have you got one on movies I do actually oh you do well what's that called anytime that I have an obsession with a subject I end up making a whole platform for it so basically I've got to get you to

become obsessed with me and my work and then you will set up the platform for it is that what yeah no way [Laughter] Allah Allah Allah bless you always people I want to say shukran to you all may Allah bless you all for really taking the time out being with us just really being on this um this journey of this uh conversation tonight if you wanna do leave your thoughts in the comments and and comments uh in the comment section how you know if there's maybe some

follow-ups some thoughts some ideas just how you felt about the video definitely I do try to read through some of the comments and just see how you guys felt about that and yeah just much love to all of you if you do want to reach out to the chef I will leave his website once again in the description if you want to reach out to me uh then you definitely follow my YouTube Instagram and for more direct contact or one-to-one consultations you can go to patreon.com forward slash Mal and you can just subscribe there on you and I've got a Discord as well and you can connect to that as well are you on

patreon I am not you're not but but you are you are in spirit guys haven't spectacular evening wherever you are Allah bless you all and may keep you all always smiling