Dr. Syed Hammad Ali | Ibn Araby, Iblees & Irreverent love | MindTrap#60 | Mufti Abu Layth

[music] Alhamdulillah people.

We have another amazing session lined up as always today. Just bringing before you the profile page, the esteemed guest for tonight is um is a guest we have had before who's got so much more to contribute. So we've got him on again to enlighten us. You can see the picture. It is Dr. Sayyad Ali all the way from Canada.

somebody who specializes in sociology, in religious discourse, especially uh minorities. And without further ado, just bringing on how are you? I'm good. I'm good.

I'm good. Salan and Shukran uh first and foremost for taking the time out to be with us tonight and we dearly appreciate it. Thank you and thank you for um inviting me again and giving this opportunity to have a discussion about religion, sociology, um sufiism and so forth. Looking forward to it.

Absolutely. I mean we've just uh the viewers don't know but whilst we were just setting this up and configuring everything we were having a bit of a chat and Dr. Sab had just really I mean the the the discussions he was bringing up and we were just just exchanging it was absolutely mesmerizing and mind-boggling. So I'm really excited about sharing that with you guys.

Those of you that are just tuning in, well, you know the drill to like and share and spread the love, people. Spread the love. So, Dr. Sa, uh I take it you've been very uh you've been quite busy in such a positive way since we've last spoken. Um you were telling me a bit about your research and yeah, share that with us for the for the viewers. And sorry, just just for those as I've mentioned before, those who are not familiar from the last podcast, um Dr.

to say Ali from uh Canada who has extensive research in sociology in in religion. Uh his PhD was in that taking a look at Muslim Muslims as a minority entity as well from a sociological perspective and we spoke about that in our previous uh podcast you can check that out online trap but since then um research always goes on people that's life learning is life and Dr.

Say was just telling me about some of the amazing research he's currently involved in. So over to you uh Dr. Se. Thank you Misab. So I can classify or categorize the research that I'm doing into three parts. One is research that is connected with sociology. So for example I'm looking at Muslim minorities uh social views intergroup attitudes. uh uh a paper is about to come for a paper related to that is about to be published um once that is done I'll share that with you um the other part is that I'm looking at Hadith sciences you can say

but in but I'm focusing on Abu Hanifh's level of you can say reliability when it comes to narrating and this is something that we were discussing before that's something really interesting because it's uh it's quite a uh an edgy topic [laughter] times isn't it? Exactly. Yeah. Tell [clears throat] us about that. Yeah. So, basically um I thought about you know there are books written on Abuhanifa and but those books either you have those who oppose him or those support him but the general approach they take is they say that okay such and such scholar has praised him or such and such group has you know criticized him.

Now this is fine but maybe there a better approach would be rather than saying what a person is saying let's compare his narrations with others and this is actually the practice that our early muhadin did. So for example Yah would say that if I want to know the mistake of a narrator narrating from his teacher he would compare with other students of the teacher just to see where they might have made a mistake. So now we have Assar which many scholars attribute to Im Muhammad Hassani.

Yet the reality is that if one reads the works of Abdash almani it is one can attribute it to Abu Hanifh. And the reason is that this narrations are also found through the transmission of Abu Ysef. No one says that Abu Ysef has written this book. The way I imam Muhammad narrated it is similarly the way he narrated Mata. It's not m of IM Muhammad, it's Imam Malik's but he had edited he had put in his points.

So likewise that so based on that the idea that okay if someone is narrating to me something how do I judge if that person is saying right or wrong I ask other people they're contemporary. So for example, if someone is reporting to me about something that has happened in my neighborhood and then I listen to others giving me similar report, I know that that person is saying something that can be considered reliable.

So I will assume that person is reliable. So what I did with Lassar it's just in a draft form is that I've looked at the first 20 narrations. Some of those narration goes back to the prophetatam. Some of those goes back to the Sahabis. And the thing is that most of the narrations you can find either similar. Yeah. That is the sun after Abu Hanifh narrates from his teacher or you find other narrations supporting that.

So then if once this is determined because this is what in his madama said that to judge whether narrator is reliable you have to find you have to first you have to collaborate whether his narrations are matching with other reliable narrators. Okay. And that's how we determine. So we're seeking cor corroborating evidence first. Okay. Yes. Even to the extent that the meanings are the same. Not even the words, the meanings are the same. So when we look at these narrations, a lot of them have similar words.

And if they don't have similar words, they do have similar meanings. That clearly shows that Abu Hanifh cannot be considered as a weak narrator. And that's why Zahhabi did consider him as a half his. That's why he considered him as he wrote that book and he mentioned Abuhanifh. Abu Hanifh as amongst of hadith. Yes. In his. Okay. Okay.

Right. So this approach I believe is a approach which basically scholars have already taken. I've mentioned the early Muhamadim but also scholar like Zaman and Harel Modsky had taken to find out the level to find out whether the hadith can be considered as a reliable law or the narrator. Okay. Now here's here's the thing. If Abu Hanifh is giving if there are 20 hadith of Abu Hanifh and 19 18 of them are correct how can we consider him as a weak narrator that he is that there's collaboration there's supporting evidence other narrations others that are saying the same thing how can then he be considered as a weak narrator but then the question comes why was he considered a weak narrator

because a lot of them consider him be I mean amongst them nasi I believe and uh Darney I believe has some kalam on Im Ahmed transmits it and a lot of them seem to be very uh dismissive of um of Imam Abu Hanifh as a reliable authority on hadith. So what what are you saying what's the um what are the drives behind that?

You mentioned Dutni he was he was a Shafi scholar and we know the uh the disagreements that existed between many Hanafi and Shafi and this is something that you know what has happened in the past we don't have to repeat that we don't have to take sides that God has protected us from criticizing the people of the past but we need to recognize that there were individuals who had ascribed to a certain school of thought and that does affect an individual we need to recognize that the good in them but at the same time if they had criticized Abuhanifhah we have to be objective and say what was the reason Abdul B did mention and he wrote this

book on the three imams three exactly and surprisingly he leaves Im Ahmed doesn't include him in the in the major ims no no and the reason is that for some scholars like Imari he did not consider humbly school as or Ahmed humb exactly Exactly. In fact, in his famous statement, he says when commenting on Imam Ahmed, he says uh that he was a muadithan that he was a great scholar of hadith.

He says who happens to have some opinions, right? So you can see that if Abdul Bur perhaps took this view. He did not put the fourth immedah and about Abu Hanifh he said this is what he had said. Most scholars declare him trustworthy. Few have criticized. Either they have criticized him because he did play. Okay. But that's how they assume they that he would do analogy or it was out of jealousy as well.

So the thing is that there is at time jealousy you know we do find that in professional setting. So if there's scholarly setting you know scholarly setting of the past it was well respect this position was well respected to be a scholar. there's a possibility of individuals being jealous of Abu Bhanifa's status because he had a high status. People recognize him. I think so often we um we choose not to or we place blinkers on kind of apprehending or on analyzing human factors when it comes to any

discussion that falls within the folds of religion. So let's say this was any other matter we would see common sense. In fact, even sorry, let me caveat that. Allow me to caveat it because even religion today we will. So if you said so for example, if you happen to be let's say let's I'm not saying you are but let's say you you are affiliated with the school or with the ahadi school or the school and I mention a scholar of a different denomination.

Say let's say I said uh now you will quite easily uh be very critical and say well no no he he often just chases I'm not saying this is how he is but people may say oh he's just chasing power he's doing this he's not like they will see these dynamics and say them and I'm not saying they're true with uh with this example I'm just saying people will be very critical but when we look at the past Like Immifh is a great example because he was a great one of the greatest uh scholars really of this um yet his contemporaries were

incredibly harsh towards him because he used reason. If I may add actually his contemporaries were not harsh the later scholars were harsh. If you look at the biographical narrations we find that the early scholar like Shoua and even Yah they would consider him as reliable narrators. It was the later ones that started criticizing him. I do not think his his own were as well because if you read the statements of a lot of the scholars in his time like Sufyana thori and all these people they they're very very like they're so harsh in their words about Abu Hanifh it's it's shocking Sophiano said that you

find other narrations saying otherwise but let's assume those are later narrations not true but when you find like scholars like um Shabba Shoba was considered as one of the most you esteemed scholars he told others to listen from Abu Hanifh himself said that he is considered trustworthy this is in the Kamala for example so we have what is interesting if you look at it it seems that the early scholars most of them not all again you can't have you know unanimous everyone is agreeing but if you look many and let's not even use the word most but many contemporaries agreed his status as a scholar yes some disagreed

but the later disagreement that came that had a political uh background to it. You see, because how I would see it is uh that it's quite natural to pe for people to react to something they don't truly understand. Um so when you let's say you emerge with an opinion as I imanif and he often championed the voice of reason. Now the voice of reason is often uh opposed in every age.

So whenever the voice of reason comes, it's always by default it will be opposed by the masses until it becomes common sense and then everybody will just claim it. So it makes sense that people would have opposed him in his time because they probably didn't understand him in where he's coming from with these views. uh and the later people I would have thought may have opposed him not out of that but out of what you're saying the the the kind of power and c what is it partisan dynamics if I may add maybe the other reason might be the trajectory the

course that Abu Hanifha's life took what do I mean by that Abuhanifa did not start as a student who is enrolled in a seminary study he was a trader he understood the social economic situations merchant Yeah, almost sounded like you said traitor. I was No, no, not trader. [laughter] A tra No, not a trader. A trader. One who's trading, right? Merchant. A businessman. Businessman.

Yeah. Right. So he So he's coming when he's already, you know, intellectually more mature than many scholars. He's he has experienced the world. And from that perspective, now he's coming and understanding Islam. That is different than someone who is starting Islam from a young learning about Islam from young age has graduated from a seminary at the age of 18. Abu Hanifh started at the age of 20 something and then he studied with Hamad for 20 years.

Another thing about Abu Hanifh look at his humility humbleness. He stayed with Abu with Nbi for 20 years and only after that he started to give fatwa. We have unfortunately in our community people who just study for a few weeks and started issuing fatwas and this is something which is problematic. People are going to point fingers at me. They're going to say this this is what he must be doing. [laughter] Even even people might disagree with you.

You have the credentials. You have studied. You have gone through the process. I may not agree with you but at least we have the credentials. I'm talking about those that don't even have the credential and studied with the Yeah. And that is the dilemma that the community is also now experiencing. And I think that's an incredible point that you mentioned about Imam Abuhanifh um being an independent um merchant, a businessman, a man of the world before he develops this passionate drive to learn Islam.

Because you see, you then bring a whole plethora of of your knowledge to the table. Yes. Whereas everybody else starts as a child and they're being molded. And because he was merchant, he wasn't dependent on the state to issue fatwas. So he had that independent thinking. Thirdly was that he allowed his students to disagree. He was that first teacher where whereby his students would come and sit together and they would have this free discourse where each one could disagree with each other and that is why you find Abu Ysef Imam Muhammad disagreeing in many cases with Abu Hanifh they would say Abu Hanifh's view is this our view is that

this is again something that perhaps is missing in contemporary seminaries whereby the ideas that whatever is being said should be followed the independent critical thinking is missing in our in our seminaries many of them. No, of course. And and another just a side point, I don't know how, but it's a side point that a successful businessman, especially of that nature, the merchant and trading in cloth, and he was incredibly successful with it, Imam Bhan, he was very wealthy from his own business.

And considering he didn't come, he wasn't from money. He was somebody that made his money. Now a person that does that usually it reflects many skills. The uh a sense of self-confidence. It reflects a charm. A person to be able to negotiating and closing the ability to close a a trade that in and of itself is a skill and to and you can see some of these pouring out in his analyses.

Yeah, exactly. So a merchant has analytical skills. You find that in Abu Hanifh when he looks at narrations how he's analyzing that. So he would, you know, that's why I immacable to understand like what what I am Amish was trying to say to Abu Hanifh was that a pharmacist is only able to prescribe based on whatever is being written to that person. But the doctor is able to find what the illness is and then give the proper medicine.

So what he was trying to say is that Abu Hanifh was able to understand what is the context of the narration. Unlike many Muhamad who are able to narrate there were some scholars who did say for example that were it not for Malik Imam Malik we would have been led astray because there was this hadith there was that narration we didn't know which one to pick which one to choose and the thing with Abu Hanifh was that he what he did was that a he would find the most authentic narration that was that he knew but at the same time that was the last practice of the companions.

So he would follow that narration which he felt was the last practice of the companions to give a verdict on any religious matter. So what would you say to sum up was the um so what is it ultimately politics that drew that kind of uh that massive divergence? What what what happened? No doubt there's politics because we know the Hanafi scholars became the Kazis.

they became the judges. So there's the power entwined with the Maliki sorry the Hanfi the Malikis as well but the Hanfi Mad right there's a lot and naturally if someone is in power they want to maintain their power so it's not just from one side it would be from both sides and to be fair as well just to add in the Abu Im Abuhanifh himself he he predates that power element doesn't he because he refuses to accept the position yes he refuses to accept an position to that extent that he was put in jail and the reason he was put in jail Again there was a political reason for that because he was supporting the uh uprising that the B were doing against the leaders of that time because Abu

Hanifh was close to the B. Yeah. So those members who did do uprising at that time this is the uprising of Muhammad Navaki and his brother Ibraim I believe in Kufa. So right and also Zad for example Zan Labadin if I'm not mistaken he was also previously yes previously. So based on that the lead the leader of that time of the Muslim community felt that okay we you know he wanted to know whether Bhanifa is going to be join the the present day of the government of that time or would he not and so this was like an offer given to see where does the his loyalty lie but Abu Hanifh being an independent person declined and some

people said that because of that he was eventually um um you know he he he was killed if some some have mentioned that So yeah, because that that is what I've heard as well. And he predates that he refused to uh take up the position and become the official supreme judge of the Muslim world. This is in the Abisid era with Abujah Mansour. And um following him, Abu Ysef does take it up and then you do start to see that that power dynamic does come in because people uh the Hannfi judges would so Abu Ysef would only appoint a supreme judge who

was upon his mab and not the shafes for uh and it and there was obviously back and forth and the shafes as well back and forth and yeah this is what happens even in today's world that for example if one wants to hire another you know another person they want to hire that person who holds similar views. It's not out of just because it just makes you know that's how you so let's say and it's true like let's say for example if somebody today uh started a Muslim something started a Muslim I don't know youth club or he started it could be anything but if imagine he started a Muslim channel if

he happens to be Salafi al hadith he will really just want people of that and he wouldn't want people from let's say the railway or the the or likewise and it's actually something very common place like it's it's it's normal today people but it was happening then as well it it happens in any institution outside of Muslim community within Muslim community what happens their preference is to have someone who holds similar views so for example if there's an institution like you mentioned Salafi they would prefer those because they believe this is the view that is right so they want to have only those people who they assume believes in their views because

they assume That is the only true view. But that's where shifting from Arabi allows us to understand there's not just one truth. There are multiple truths. And that is some that's a fascinating uh discussion. Let me uh for people let me just share this with the people as well that um many years ago when I was studying actually I uh perhaps in towards my final years of study I came across this masah in it's anuli principle that um that or is it just that is

so Is truth one or are there multiplicity of truths? And the and and this really first at first the question wasn't a problem because you find all kinds of questions when studying Islam. Can this happen? Can that happen? What really surprised me was the scholars that were taking that view. So you would have and I know you would have this is within the Malikia you would have people like and that's different to but amongst many others saying well actually truth is multiple and this is not the same as

saying oh when a mush makes a mistake he gets an aar. Those people are saying the truth is one but you this person got it wrong and he got it right. This camp is saying something totally different. They're saying no truth in and of itself is relative and multiple and it's quite you know and it took me a while to really come to terms with do do tell us uh Dr.

S unpack that for us. Yeah. Yeah. So we have to recognize that truth in itself is one that is the divine but it manifests itself in multiple ways in multiple ways. By that I mean that truths at our level there are multiple truths it's like light if you put the light beam of light through a prism it breaks down into different colors.

That is how truth is. The divine is absolute. He is one. So at that just just to affirm that sorry Dr. Z to just interject just to affirm in case people misunderstand that none of those scholars were disagreeing on God. Uh just so people understand that they they none of them meant that there's you know 10 gods or one god. No no what they were speaking about was our understanding of the world which includes our understanding of rulings and our understanding.

So you're right at our level not at we're not speaking about God. Sorry. Exactly. Now the reason that there are multiple truths is that think about that verse which says that if the trees were pen and the ocean upon oceans were in the words of the divine will not be exhausted. Now does not God says Allah Allah speaks the truth.

Yeah. So when he speaks the truth and the words cannot be exhausted that means they're going to be infinite words of his. Now these all infinite exactly from that perspective he is infinite he cannot be delimited and because he is not delimited he is manifesting his attributes in multiple ways.

In each moment he is showing some he is showing his manifestations. And based on that once we recognize that what is now happening is that we're seeing multiple levels of reality. Each is true to its extent but we then also understand that there's only one absolute reality but only he can understand himself because we are not that absolute being. Only the divine is absolute being.

We are contingency being that is we are mixture of the beingness that has been given from the divine but at the same time we're non-existence. Does it not say so whatever else beside him is unreal means unreal. Yeah. So in truth we are unreal but then God created us with truth.

So this is the mixture that we are in. We have the truth but at the same time our own self if you want to say is nothing. So we're in that ambiguous state contingent reality. It's dependent. It's just that's that's what it is a it's just contingent on on God. Yeah. Exactly. So we recognize that we have a certain level of knowledge but God is God is ale. We are not ale.

We don't have the complete knowledge. We do have a relative level of knowledge and the extent to we see it we can understand the world but we cannot have an absolute understanding only the divine can understand and that is where once we understand this then we can understand the question you know the struggles that a lot of times postmodernism not postmodernism sorry a lot of times when we as living in a postmodern society are experiencing like for example we see these differences and we're asking what is right and wrong no if we take this akbarian approach We recognize there are multiple levels of truth and what matters is that does it match with what the divine is saying to

that extent. In fact, if Arabic goes to that level is then saying that all interpretations of of the Quran is correct so long as it matches the Arabic and the reason is that God revealed the Quran as mubin Quran Arabon Mubin. This is a beautiful point because in fact just today was it today or yesterday? I can't you know time is relative isn't it? So uh and it doesn't exist according to certain people and and then again it could be God according to some interpretations.

Uh you see somebody had sent me a question saying oh Mui you know your theory or your your my statement of the Quran superposition with superpositions within the Quran. So I have uh for those of you that ain't familiar with it, what I've said and borrowing loaning the term from quantum physics where inherently the uh the um the subatomic particles they have an indeterminability about about themselves in essence.

So they could be where they are in multiple places simultaneously and that is their actual essence. That's what they they do. It's not just so using that I brought it and I said that the Quran has a superpositional nature to it that we read it and where we are it gives us a certain meaning. Now we know it has its meaning that people may know but it may add a certain meaning to our lives depending on where we are who are reading it and yet you may read it and it enhances you in a different way and this person in a different way and this is the superpositional nature of the

Quran. Now, somebody said to me, "Oh, Mui, you know this what you espouse about superpositions of the Quran, does it not clash with the Quran is a it is a clear book." And I I this was just yesterday and I said no, it doesn't. But the fact you've just said the very same thing, so sorry do carry on.

If I may add with this is that Arabi so you know Dareda he spoke about deconstruct deconstructivism. Basically they would argue that the text cannot be understood. It's it's like what the text is saying is the person giving the meaning to the text. This is what dera mentioned. Now this leads to the issue for many contempl would say no that's not the case. You have to understand that because the Quran is mubin as long as any meaning any sense supports any verse in God's speech that is acceptable.

But in addition to that that is grounded in the idea that that interpretation gives or exp that interpretation shows expresses mercy and the that is so verses that are giving interpretations are conditioned or connected with mercy. So that is why Arabi would continuously you know would say that if you read the Quran and read it again and you're still getting one understanding then you're not reading the Quran correctly.

Let me give you an example. The way we translate the way usually translate it means there's nothing like him. Right? This is for surah 42 11. However, if we read it in this way literally as say it also means there is nothing like his likeness. The word yeah exactly it that's actually that's actually what it does read.

It doesn't say right. So the word is basically some say right like but they you say oh it's emphasizing negation. Okay fine that acceptable from an Arabic perspective language. But if we say it means there's nothing like his likeness. What does that entail? Now you have further two more interpretation. One means is his likeness.

Alinsan al is his likeness. So in other words, there's nothing in creation that is like alins. That is one interpretation. Another interpretation is that everything is the self-disclosure of the divine. So in truth, there is nothing that is similar to him except himself. That second one, you have to repeat that second one. Okay. So [laughter] this is mentioned in the study Quran.

We take a quick caffeine hit and then hear that. So and this has been mentioned in the study Quran. It's um the study Quran. I would say is probably the the best if not one of the uh um it's one the best and if one may say it's not the best it's one of the best in terms of how it is explaining the Quran to the English speakers. So I've heard great things about it. I've heard great things. Yeah.

So in that it mentions that when the word here it indicates that all of creation is the self-disclosure. It is the likeness of the divine. And so there's nothing in truth in the creation that exists except he himself. He himself is his own likeness. Wow. So this is just to give you an example that is incredibly profound and because if you think about it in many ways you see we don't really exist in many ways.

I mean if you if I know we do exist I don't mean it depends how you're looking at it but if you compare finite with infinite finite doesn't really exist because it's only and we in some way are therefore like an emergent property right if I may add if we look at from our own way by through ourself we do not exist that's why we are bal and there isn't the isn't it mentioned bkari as well and other sah where labid poem that there's There's nothing that exists beside the divine.

And the prophet said this is the most true words of a poet. Yeah. Who said Yeah. pre-Islam. Yeah. What is it? He said exactly everything aside the divine, aside god is bul. The word battle means unreal. And also there's the hadith now, right? And there's in Bkari. Now kana doesn't mean just was.

The kana as we were talking before as well it indicates denotes um it donate denotes the idea that it's donate sorry donating idea of existence and basically you know you have this verse as well now one will not translate it that god was all pardon it means god is of course time is irrelevant yeah yeah exactly so this hadith says that means god is And there's nothing with him.

So if we look at from that perspective, the only ultimate reality is the divine. God is alhak. What are we? Albatin. We are unreal. And but oh sorry car. So once we have recognized this now what happens is that we are in the bers state isma state in between. I was just going to say and from you have from that which is reality in in Arabic.

Yes, exactly. So now we have to understand that the whole thing around us is a reflection of the divine. Now someone may say please provide us the Quranic evidence. I would say wheresoever you turn there is the face of the divine. Or I can also say he is the manifest. He is what is hidden. Exactly. And not and not just that I can also say everything is working in his mode in his way.

Shakila actually one of the meanings of Arabic as well is in its form almost you know from Yes. Uh there was a a just a comment here that um I thought that was really and I am for the viewers I I am seeing your comments but and I will towards the end uh respond as well and give some of the call outs from Fatima who's mentioned here that I think the mo the moment the word of God was transmitted to a human it lost it lost its objectivity and became subjective hence its continual subjectivity ity in interpretation.

I thought that's a a profound um it's right and if you look at this God so we have to understand the moment we say God we are conceptualizing God delimiting God. Yeah. But in God before you know God we understand because this is his his relationship with creation in his essence he is simply who are he is who and even in who we are problematized because who is then is it gendered is it what is you know because language is restrictive isn't it

exactly and that is why this form of knowledge can this form of truth can be only realized You have to you have to go through this process whereby you become a mok. So you can go through this feeling of realization because means realization but the moment you say something you're delimiting God cannot be delimited. So God can only be experienced and how can he be experienced in the heart. The heart it basically means fluctuation and the heart is between the f two fingers of the all merciful.

So what happens is that it's the heart that can contain or it's the heart that can experience the divine okay because the divine because you know the uh the heart is the place whereby it can experience the self-disclosures of the divine but the moment you are saying something you're delimiting but even that delimitation is a manifestation of the divine to understand God you know when the person is mention of objective and subjective here's the thing these words themselves have to be understood through the modes of knowing.

And unfortunately because of colonialism and uh modern society we're living in which uh the modernization not modernization that has gone by we have so much focus on the idea of objectivity but the reality is even our objectiveness is derived through our subjectivity our understanding of I was just about to say in essence it is really just an intersubjectivity.

Exactly. And God what we call objectivity is for the most part it is an intersubjectivity shared between humans. Yeah. Right. And God cannot be seen by or cannot be experienced by one person and other person as similar way. Because if two people experience God the same way then it means God is being delimited. The God cannot be delimited. If one person understands God and other person understand God the same way that means God has been delimited.

And we know that now the word yom here as says it doesn't just mean like the time we assume a we know time has different ways you know in the Quran it gives different days like 50,000 so forth and right but in this case it means the present moment each present moment he's appearing he's manifesting his names his names are being manifested in different ways and this names unpack that for the viewers Because I know you're going to go into the splitting into Jalal Jamal and now what does objectivity lead to the

idea that there's distance? The idea that I as an objective research can have a distance. The thing is this is the rational mind that we have does that this is known as akal. But akal also means something that binds. And so when we are using akal it is binding us and not allowing us to think further about the divine. Then the other way is the kayal is the imaginal way.

And what happens is that isn't there a hadith about in Bkari as well when the prophetat wasam was asked for what isan he said as if you see him as if you see that's a really you know in it this hadith is is really um in its way quite strange isn't it because what it's actually saying when you think about it if I may add to this the thing is that and I'll Let's read the hadith.

It is that yeah right now first of all if I take the agarian perspective I don't have to say that you worship the divine it also means it's the word the word is derived from which means adore so you adore your lord as if you see him now the word is an imaginal way that as if you're seeing him when you see something you're imagining it's not that thing and that is what the divine is.

We see his names but we know that even those names cannot explain his essence. In fact, God himself is want to want us to to know about his essence. He wants you against himself. And the prophet also forbid us to to delve into his essence because that is beyond our thinking. But the names that are coming now the names indicate this thing that I've mentioned transcendence and imminence tanzi and taji and let me just sorry I'll take a couple of minutes just to explain this further god names there are 99 names of god usually we understood but there are more of course not an exhaustive right scholars have classified them in two

ways one can say jamal and and jalal or one can say ramania and jabaria now what does that mean god is merciful ful, God is loving, God is kind. These are qualities, these are names that come under the category of jamal. The other categories are like jabar. These are severe, these are rod. To understand these category that I made into the the names that have been categorized, we also need to understand the hadith which is say that God says my mercy prevails over my wroth.

Mhm. So now what happens is that if we look at God through Tanzi and the rational mind the reasoning leads us to Tanzi approach. What does that mean? We know God is one. We understand God is different. We know God has power over everything. That is the logical mind saying that is if a person believes in the divine. Sure. But what happens is that and this is by the way the problem that the Muslim community is experiencing that there's so much focus on the idea that God is serving in his punishment that the other aspect which prevails over his wrath that is my mercy prevailed over my ro that is missing and what is that mercy kindness loving and that comes

through how does that come that comes as if as if you see him so now what happens is that the mercy attributes leads are closer to the person like a Father like parents, a parent when a parent is strict with their child, one parent is strict and one parent is kind the child will it go to the parent that is strict or the parent that is kind that is merciful. It will go to that which is merciful.

So the idea of is that you need to understand alak through his names which are brought which are categorized into jamal and jalal. Would it be would you say or would it be okay that to say that these are a binary? Are they do you feel that they are antagonistic in nature? They're not antagnic because all of the names of the divine is what?

Alasna. All of his names are beautiful but they have different outcomes. A just for example a king who is you know who is known for being uh uh who is known for punishing his subjects the subjects will stay away but when the king is merciful his subjects will come closer either way the subject is connected with the king but what Allah is saying to us is that his mercy is prevails over his wrath.

So we should approach recognizing that he's majestic that yes he can punish if we go astray but that he is closer to us than our jugular veins and that wheresoever we turn around we see him and that he is with us and and by the way once we understood these categories they do not oppose each other to that but we also recognize one thing God has decreed mercy upon himself his mercy prevails his mercy encompasses everything as in another Quranic verse and that he has decreed mercy upon himself.

So in truth even his wroth will express or will exhibit his mercy and that yeah would you see are these still our parameters and assessment and the picture we're draw drawing because people would say that this is still man fashioning God in his image as a king that is a benevolent king that is doing uh let's say he's strict but he's he's almost as uh Alan Watt said a beneficent

tyrant that's the image of of God that he's a tyrant but he's uh beneficent he's he's kind so almost like this strict father as Freud is saying that people put that father image project it onto God who's really strict but he's also loving he is not so we cannot combine both of them as a tyrant who's belind. It's not that one can say he is merciful who punishes according to when the situation demands.

He in his essence the way we understand the way he has explained to us is that he has decreed mercy upon himself though he didn't have to but that's what I'm saying is this not really still all of our journey in arriving at some comprehension as opposed to because Allah in essence is and that's the true and this is this not man's journey by man humans man humankind's journey to God as opposed to the if we can say the objective reality right now when we read that narration which we had spoken previously as

wellmin now it doesn't just mean that the person is the image of the of the the divine mmin but in other words it can be inversed as well it can be turned around as well so when this is a I know we covered this previously and it's a beautiful narration that and for those of you that haven't come across it, it mentions al which is the believer is a a reflection of the believer but understood by many especially mystics to al- mmin is also one of the names of God.

So that the believer is a reflection of God but you're saying it could be inverted. Yes. As in it could be so God is a reflection. Yes. And that's why we have some kavali some kavali where the these poets are saying that whoever wants to see the divine should look at me. So this journey is basically I'm looking at the mirror and the mirror is showing something about me and I'm following that and God is the one who guides me and remember there's another hadith God is the way you assume him to be.

So if you think good of him, he is good. But if you think he's going to punish, he's going to punish. And and this explains a lot of that law of attraction thing as well with people because it's what people, you know, the hadith that I Allah saying that I treat my people as they expect of me and people whatever they're putting out there is what's coming back. Exactly. So now that's why we should always have and we should know that did not go say um there's a um no sorry yes so everything that he has created the

word is like Allah so everything he has made is perfect and good now if I recognize see this is how I would see if I recognize the divine is good because he has said and I know that he loves me because it says a we it says that they love him and he loves them as mentioned in the Quranic verse. Then and why have you been created?

We have been created that the jin and now doesn't just mean worship but I can also say it means worship and adore. So I've been created to adore him. I have he loves me. He has told me that he is good. I was going going to add there that according to several I believe it's from Abbas as well that that they may come to know me.

Exactly. That's what it means. Exact. And how do we know that? Interestingly, if we think about it and the word alam is derived from the word alma also means traces, marks. So the whole world is the traces and marks of the divine. If we see see it through the eye of the divine, we can see how the world is a reflection manifestation of the divine.

But coming back to this now once I have recognized that everything is good and I know that the name that to God belongs the most beautiful names and that God and God has told me that he has decreed mercy upon himself. How can I find anything that is bad? And that is why scholars would say that wjud in its essence in its root is not bad. It is good. Anything that is bad means it is lacking wjud their degrees.

It is existence has degrees. It has layers. So when a person gets closer to the divine they are showing more they're showing more light. And God is light is connected with Islamic philosophy. It is. So that's why the prophet would say, "Oh God, make me light." It's an amazing that is for those of you that that Allah that the prophet in a dua he says, "Place light in front of me, behind me, on my sides, around me, envelop me in light and make me make me light."

Right? And secondly, the hadith that says that the heart of the believers is between the two fingers of the all merciful. So whichever way the heart moves yes there might be bala there might be tribulation but beneath the tribulation is only mercy because it is between the two fingers of the merciful God moves the heart of the believers the hearts of people and the hadith says the two fingers of the all mer of the merciful it doesn't say it saysman and that's what says that any situation you are in in truth you might not be able to perceive it it's a it's a um expression it's It's an expression display of

divine mercy. Why why do you feel um Dr. Say that this you see what you're saying is absolutely resonating and it's refreshing to hear once again always refreshing to hear these things and very thoughtprovoking and also is something that for me and I'm sure for many people it it strengthens that bond with the divine.

But why do you feel many people um become very um intimidated or or if you don't want to use the word intimidated but very disturbed and perturbed by these words a unfortunately we the you would agree that there's many people that would find what you're saying disturbing um to that I would say that so far as you've seen I've quoted the Quran and hadith I have been literal and that's What Arabi would say he was a hyper literalist.

He would follow the words of the Quran and the hadith. I have done that. But in Arabic as you know each word has multiple meanings. You cannot negate that the word is the form. Of course the meanings are the spirit. So you have multiple ways of understanding. Having said that there's a reason we have been taught and here's the important thing. This hadith where I was referring to aboutan look we have three levels in this hadith. Islam, I iman and in contemporary Islamic discourse there has been too much focus at least in the Sunni world in terms of and fick is related to Islam.

What is Islam? The five pillars. So we have a lot of discussion. Those who have studied madrasa they know they have studied how many times they have studied the same thing over and over through different right. We have iman that is through kalam. missing isan and is connected with Sufiism and we have some notion that Sufiism is against Quranic text but that's not the case the thing is that they look at it from a deeper level the deeper you go the more meanings you get I'll give you an example the that is the breath of the merciful this wording that Arabi used it it is

found in hadith that that the prophetat wasam says that he finds the bread of the merciful from Yemen. Okay, there's a hadith. Okay, I've not actually come across that. Wow. So, this is inrani. This is inrani and this is inn. And the narrators are I mean if you speak from a sunni perspective, right? But my point is one can argue that no this is not what the meaning this is not the meaning of the hadith but but they are finding evidence to the Quran and hadith and that is something we have to recognize that because of modern education and many you know the Muslim world they're pious many of them majority of people they pray but they've been trained in the idea that

there's only one Islam and they think that the Quran can be read simply through a you know a translation that's enough no the reality is that the more you read into words you find multiple meanings Even if you look at the word we translate it as what simply as lord of the creation but the word alam when I was just saying it means traces it mean marks. If you go deeper into that it gives you another idea as to what it means or take this example that I said we spoke we there were three interpretations given for that staying within the Quranic text.

So this is the problem that we fear as if sufiism is alien to Islam. No, Sufiism is part of Islam. You know, Sharia, it means the way to the well. But the thing is it's it is Sufiism that allows you to drink from that well. You cannot taste that well, the water unless you have gone through that inward journey. When you see when you're saying because people may ask Sufism um is it always handinhand with this?

Because you see to me I call this the path. Um but I don't I see an overlap like the vin diagram with elements of let's say the sof and sufism but to me they're not necessarily always the same because I feel that even sufiism for a huge part has become institutionalized and become all about powers and groups and sectarianism and um it's not to me a lot of it is no longer about about this and many of these people predate this kind of the so of and all of this stuff

any idea any perspective eventually is institutionalized through its followers and you'll find within the followers sincere and those who find that you know what these thoughts can help us prosper economically take the example of what has happened to any religion you have preachers of all religions whereby they are using religions as a mean for economic benefits either they're an advisory to an institution or they're you know they are doing things that our previous scholars didn't.

No one is saying it's wrong. No one is no one should doubt their intention. But one of the byproducts of this is that it improves one's economic situation. If for example someone is adviser to an Islamic bank they are earning a lot. They're get they're giving justifying Islamic banking but and they may have good intention but no one can deny that they're gaining from that. Now when people find that when people find that there are those who may not have sincere intention but then they're using religion as a form of moving forward in society and that becomes a problem.

It is. No, of course. Of course. This you see this thing of people reading scripture, reading the Quran, taking a personal meaning or even many of these things we've been discussing. Some people may say, well, you see, the problem with that is if you allow, you know, uh the doors of interpretation to be open, uh, you know that's the the proverb Arabic proverb says it's going to be it's going to become chaos.

So some person will say no this verse means this this verse means this. Um what what are how would you uh what would you say to something like that? The words of God cannot be limited. That means the meanings will be infinite. We have to recognize that. But at the same time it has to be conditioned with mercy. The problem is we forget the concept of mercy whether it's in Sharia whether it's in interpretation or in our daily life.

Mercy prevails over everything because mercy encompasses everything and god has introduced us about himself. He has introduced us that he is the merciful. So interpretations have to align with mercy and that's why he would you know give views that we're more inclined with providing mercy easiness for people except for few issues but the thing is that a we need to do that when we're giving interpretation we need to provide those views that facilitate people's situation not that makes difficult in fact God himself says he wants ease for us so that's number one number two is

that if there are multiple interpretation that will be emerging which is fine but then what do you do which the the Sahabas did when they felt that the you know there are multiple ways of reciting the Quran when they felt that this would disconnect or this would disintegrate the community they came up with one h they agreed to that so when it comes to this issue those in position can then declare that such positions are only going to be followed that provide the most benefit to the society you see because if What I when I've been asked this these kind of questions, you see what I've said is [snorts]

there's a difference in trying to extract a rulings from the Quran. This is not something that everybody can necessarily do. That's just like with anything in life. Not everybody will be a legally inclined to understanding Jewish prudence and what what what are the technical side but the verses of aam and I don't mean you can take obviously meaning from every verse and you should from the Quran but the verses of aam are anything between 150 to 500 let's say going with the the

traditional view that that's still you know the Quran is 6,200 plus verses so the bulk of the Quran is not about rulings. It's not about trying to say well if a person is trading he should do this. This is how he should write debts. This is how testimonies should be done. This is divorce. This is these are a small portion. So the vast majority of the Quran is about meaning which is personal.

So if a person reads it and it gives them it adds value to their daily lives then to me that's I would say that's wonderful and that is the purpose of the Quran with that I would say is that for Muslims the Islamic law is part but it is not the only part which has been focused so much by today many you know one can say Islamist if one may use this term that the focus is only on Sharia.

Yeah, number one. Number two is that the way they have shown Islamic law, it seems to be an harsh legal system. That's not the case. The companions understood it in a way again being full of mercy. And let me just give you an example. Kabul Assar 633 and 634 hadith. One narration is about Abu Da and other is about Abu Mas alansari. One was the governor of Damashk and the other was another place.

So what happened was that a poor woman was caught by people and they were and Abu Dha was told that she has stolen something. Now many of our so you know people who hold very conservative view they would say oh this is such and such punishment whatever it is that should be imposed. You know what Abu Dha said? He said did you steal the did you steal? Say no. So she said no and then she was released.

And then then with another person the same thing happened that he was asked did you steal? So Abu Masud is saying say no. And the reason is that you know that in Sharia the idea is to dispense that is to facilitate or to you know on the side of caution. Exactly. to on the side of caution. That is what Islamic legal system is that you try to you know defer that punishment to the extent you can. We don't find this way of thinking anymore that Islamic laws is full of mercy.

And it's interesting because we begin every recitation or often many things actions with and every Muslim says that at as always at the forefront that Allah is um infinitely merciful, the most merciful, the most kind. But you're right. For some reason, from that journey of to our living out of Islam, somewhere along the way, it gets lost.

We we lose that. We forget that meaning. Who would criticize a companion of the status of a Buddha? He could have said, "Oh, let's find evidence." Yet he told that person was he was considered quite a in some way if I can use the word almost harsh uh a companion wasn't he? He was somebody that was especially on himself. He was very on himself. He was very aesthetic and very uh would not indulge in things and yeah and that is how a person should be take the strict views for yourself but dispense ease and facilitation for others and that's what Abu Dha did

that's what Abu Masoud sayano so our whole system is based on mercy to that extent that you know and we spoke about this even the story of L disobeying the divine is based on the idea of love thatl had. Now the only reason I mention this is something that would blow people's minds and the only reason one of the people brace yourself for this.

One of the one of the reasons I mentioned this is to explain to people when they say that there is no love in Islam, no mercy. I'm trying to show that these discourses have existed. People do embrace them. Now the only reason is that if you have not read not as in you but those who have not read and criticized Islam it shows their lack of knowledge. I'm not saying this is the right view. I'm simply showing what are the discourses that are that existed in amongst Muslim scholars.

Sorry go ahead. No no and and so and and from that example is this from um Alhamdani. Yes, please I mean do do tell us this this you'll find very interesting people. So was not just some ordinary scholar. He was well known for having learned all the knowledge or sciences of his time.

He was crucified or burned at the age of 33 because unfort you know people assume that his views were against the normative views. But the thing is that again we have to recognize that normative views are intersubjective that our general community holds. It doesn't mean it is the truth. And he's just for so people know he's around the fifth century so late 400s going into the early 500s and then is executed.

3 33 is an an interesting number. I don't know if that's relevant here. Is that also not the uh the age of Jesus? But and interestingly if I'm not mistaken sardi he was also martyed at the age of 30 or something like that along this number. M so seat is the one who came up with the hikmatul is the idea of of the the notion of light he was using light as in as connecting it with the being but that's for another discussion maybe but let's focus on this topic but that sounds very fascinating as well but yeah we'll so now here's the thing we need to understand

that all these scholars are not some you know uh those scholars they have just studied over the weekend they have spent their time reading Islamic texts. So we need to first recognize that. We need to show that humbleness because sometimes we like oh did did they not read this such and such Quranic verse? I would say they knew this Quranic verse but they understood it in multiple ways. You have to understand that the Quran cannot have one meaning because since it is the word of God and God cannot be delimited.

So how can his words be delimited? How can his words be con limited? In other words, yeah they will have multiple layers. Okay. So having said that now what happens is that Eli's story is for many scholars it's an example of a lover. It's an example this is going to come as a a huge uh you know it's it's going to be cognitive dissonance for many people this [clears throat and cough] and there's a really good article written by Dr.

Muhammad Rustam um that one can if one types Dr. Muhammad Dr. they'll find this article in it on regarding this topic. Now you have to understand one thing that yes disobeyed God. Yes one can say but at the same time he knew the will of God but before we go I need to again explain the names of the divine so that we can understand.

We understood that God is manifested through his ramania qualities and through his jabaria. Now the whole creation is the locust of the divine names. The maz of Rahmania is the prophetat. Isn't he ish isn't he? He's from the from the mercy of Allah comes. Exactly. So when we follow his way, it leads us to closer to the to God.

It leads us closer to God. But if we follow the way of Jabaria, if we follow the way of um of of Jalal, it leads us away. And who is the mazer? who came through these attributes it is el so el's role is to deviate to misguide people and the role of the prophet is to guide and that's why it's so much important to focus all the time on rahim but at the same time also know that god can also punish but the focus should be on rahim because that leads to uh to to mercy that leads to guidance now having understood this point okay we need to understand that el attributes he came through the

attributes of roth and therefore His nourishment is also what curses as compared to the nourishment of prophet which is salam sai wasam and foran what do we say now this is what is it it is but it doesn't mean thatl was not the lover of god why didl not bow to Adam has explained that this story is a story of loverl did not bow to god because he knew nothing could be bold.

Nothing could sa could not be done to anyone except the divine. So this is from his mean this is from his excessive uh that the god is just one that this head will only bow to god. Exactly. So the example that anal gives is that let's assume sultan mahmud tells Ayaz his adviser go serve someone else.

Now this is the command command. Okay. And ayaz and this is Mahm by the way from the Seljuk. So Mahmadnam Malik Shai. Yes. So now if Aayyaz were to go he would have eared he would have made a mistake. Yes. He has followed the command of the divine but he has not followed the will of the divine. You have to understand that the will of the divine is that nothing is to be worshiped except God.

But because went against the command he had to be punished for that but his punishment is in con is in relation to his constituation his constituent he is made of fire so his at the end remember like Arabi says aab if you look at it it's connected with which means sweetness sweetness sweetness exactly so for at the end everything will be covered with mercy so even those who are will be punished in hellfire.

Eventually that hellfire will be converted into bliss for them. It's interesting speaking about ethmologies because uh what's argued is the word el is from the Greek word which is from uh uh diablo the the same thing they say that this is where the Arabic origin of comes from linking with diablo. Yeah but sorry.

So now what happens is that El knew that he's disobeying God. But the reason he did was out of his love for the divine and he was willing to be punished for that. And this shows that he was not a self-lover. What does it mean? I love my parents because they're my parents. And because now they're getting aged, they're elderly people. I want to take care of them.

I don't think about others for example. And then why am I doing that? Because they're my parents. So that's self-love. El did not care whether he did not focus on God being merciful or wrothful. He simply loved God for who he is and he was willing to suffer the consequences because he felt this is an honor for him. And in truth that's definitely a different take. That's a very uh mind you this take is is to some extent quite common.

um maybe not the the love excessive love but to but this thing of him being so immersed in is quite common in the in the subcontinent because I do remember somebody here said as well that they heard this since they were a child I did hear some of these kind of uh reflections of of this story as well whilst growing up I have to say I I have heard it is quite common in the narrative that is why like you have like Abul Kasim Gorgani who used to refer to him as yean, master of masters.

What they're trying to show that he was a javan, a shovelier who fell who loved the divine without his javan m. Javan m exactly which means like a but they're using it more in a chivalous like chivalry way like so not in the way we would use it in contemporary way. Yeah, we use it contemporary to mean like oh like more about being virulent and so so for him this became a robe of honor that he wore but the thing is that now someone may say why was he punished you have to understand in Islamic understanding in this story there is the engendered command and the prescriptive

command. The engendered command is that nothing will be woripped except the divine. God has decreed that he has decreed that only he will be worshiped. So whatever we assume in truth, we're only worshiping him ultimately. Butl ultimately prescriptive command allows us to choose and prescriptive command either leads to bliss or punishment. Okay. [clears throat] This was a prescriptive command to bow down to Adam.

Such bow down right and naturally because he disobeyed the command he had to be he had to suffer the consequences. But he was made to misguide people and he was given punishment. But we need to recognize that the end of anything is nothing but mercy. Yeah. So those who are destined to go like you know those who are who are destined to go in hell for Arab it's that their constituent their characteristic their um you can say their nature is closer to be in that hellfire because if they were to go in Jenna they will not be able to withstand that they will not find bliss they will

not find comfort in Jenna they'll find out only there now all of this is staying within the parameters of the literal reading and within the the Islamic text. One doesn't have to agree to this. I'm not saying one has you should agree to this. All I'm trying to say is that look at the level of discourse we had wherel is considered as the enemy has also been recognized for his attributes to such an extent that Ahmed Gazali the brother of Imam Gazali said one who does not learn from the ofl is a heretic.

Okay. You see, because I've always uh you see the way I see it is that Islam, the Quranic narrative actually uh places itself in the center. You have certain traditions that would see the devil as the the anti-hero or the the villain or the the the anti-God character, if you like.

So you've got God and you've got this binary and then you've got some traditions which would there would be no devil concept and you have then Islam places itself in my perspective in the center where the it mentions Shan and El but it also mentions really the source of uh this these neg this negativity the uh insinuations as the nerfs as the Because it would also raises questions then because one would say well you see if because ifl was the source of

rebellion then who was elan to misguide him to be able to reason we need to understand that in truth you know and that's why says el is a metaphor everything is a metaphor of what only the real is the truth god you know it says thatl misguides but the truth. There's another verse that says God is one who guides and misguides.

The prophet is the one who guides but he's a metaphor. It's like that verse you threw but you did not throw. Exactly. So, so the root of everything is the divine. Now we need to understand thatl is the mazer is the locus manifestation of the attributes of jabaria of jalal and jalal leads away from the divine. The hellfire leads one away from the divine.

The paradise leads someone closer to the divine. So the role of el is to mislead. But in truth if you look from another level he's also disclosing he is manifesting the names of the divine because god himself says that he guides whomsoever whomsoever he wills and misguides as well. Phenomenologically he is a manifestation of of the divine will playing out in allowing people to choose even if it's to go wrong.

Yes. And that and that is why there's a hadith narrated in Sah Muslim I seek refugee in you from you. Yeah. So this is how then sees the whole world which we define as that now everything all I'm seeing are the different names of the divine. Now once I have understood this there's another thing I have to connect why should I not followl because it leads me away.

There's a hadith that says give to each thing that is Huck, it's Huck. Everything is Huck. But we know that Huck that is the divine, its names are broadly classified into Jamal and Jalal. Jalal leads away. So anything that leads me away from the divine, I need to abstain from that. And anything that leads me close to that Jamaal like showing mercy, being kind, being nice to people, forgiving people, all of these comes under the name of the Jamal.

If I take that route I will which is the route of the which is the ta which is the path of the prophet I will meet the divine. Yeah. So this is how we have to also understand that once we have recognized that each thing has different characteristics of the divine. Some are showing more level of more characteristic degree of mercy. If we follow that way it leads to the divine like being honest.

But if we take the the path of tanzi or you can say the path of jalal that leads us away and god has given us the Quran and God says that he has revealed the Quran in truth. So that is the criteria that we need to use. You see, and just uh since we spoke of some of these people um not so much, he was uh celebrated throughout his lifetime and and after um but alhamdiul

and so on and other people they were executed and and it as a consequence of what they're saying by people and the thing is that I mean sorry not by people by I mean they eventually by the state I im Ali narrates or he has said it that speak to the people according to their level what I have said should in truth not be also spoken publicly but here's the problem when you hear people talking about Islam as intolerant a religion without love and the knowledge has become to see this yeah exactly and and just to be clear because there there was a comment here saying that but Allah says in the Quran

thatl Allah doesn't sayl in that sense but shaitan um that he is a clear adversary so um so somebody was saying well that's clear in the Quran so how can you be saying this you're not actually saying anything different you're not saying that you're saying that him being a uh let's say the the insinuation that leads you that that gives you that neg negative option to choose something evil.

This is by the will of the divine. By the will of the divine because the divine has his names are are are classified categorized into two jamal and jalal. Now you as a human being have given given the choice. Do you want to follow the way oflim or do you want to follow the way of the prophet? You follow the way ofl who is your enemy. It doesn't mean he's not the lover of God. He might be your enemy, but he can still be the lover of God.

But if you follow his way, it will lead you to hellfire. Yeah. Because he is not, you see, Allah saying he is your enemy. He's not, it's not like, you see, it's not God versus the devil in Islam. God doesn't verse the devil. The devil is explained as a means of um of your of these insinuations that you're having.

But it's not a lot like in some of the Christian uh traditions you will have it's almost like another entity that he's almost as strong as God. But it's nothing like that in in the Quran. Um although Allah is saying that beware these are theat of shaitan these are the steps of shaitan this is the way of shaitan these are the tricks of the shaitan the deception of the devil but it doesn't mean ultimately if the Quran does state that the shan acknowledges Allah he believes in Allah he does

obviously do that but it's interesting to see that some Muslims uh and in some Muslim tradition held him in that light of saying well he was a deep he was so immersed in the love of God that he refused to do sjud to Adam because he felt that can only be done to God that's quite a uh a profound thought and like I said the only reason perhapse stories this point of view has to be mentioned is because this idea that Islam does not teach love or or or mercy But the problem is the moment we tell this thing, this is what Padat said

about his own opinion or this this presentation. He said for how are commoners to understand the tale of a person whose foot does the elect of the elect have not even caught a whiff. Sorry, you're going to have to repeat that. Y again. For how Yeah. For how are commoners to understand the tale of a person whose foot dust the elect of the elect the elect of the elect have not even cut a whiff of I'm going to dare to ask who is that person here is it is it yes I thought this is why I thought to

myself is he speaking about let me ask that just to be so Sure. Wow. You know, it is very I have to say uh it is it is a different fascinating take. It's it doesn't mean we have to believe in it. But you see this is the height of this is what maturity is that you can engage an idea without having to necessarily believe in it.

But you can see that wow that some Muslims even taught this that this is out of their love anchored in mercy not in some kind of let's take people you know away from God. They're trying to they're doing it in a way to to kind of almost say to people that look how can you not have excessive even you blame the devil even the devil had love for God. Where is your love for God? Right.

Yeah. And at the end everything the root of everything is based on he him. And that is why anad also mentions and I'm just reading his text. Oh dear friend and this comes from Dr. Mahhammed's article. Oh dear friend, every act that you see ascribed to someone other than God is metaphor not reality. God is the true doer, the true file.

Where he says he the Quran says the angel of that will take you. It is metaphor. The reality is that God and again in the Quran mentioned God takes souls at the moment of their death. The prophetatam guidance is metaphor. And likewise misguidance is metaphor. The reality is and this is in surah 14:4. This is the verse. The reality is he leads astray whomsoever he wills and guides whomsoever he wills.

Granted thatl misguides people. This is why he created. He created to misguide people. It's a means. M it's a mean but at the end if you look at carefully there is nothing except the manifestation of the divine and because God has mentioned all you see is nothing but good and the Quran clearly says so everything he has created every moment is nothing but good the problem is we are not able to see it from that level it does require I mean this Really faith is a journey of a lifetime,

isn't it? And in which a person will really they they will set on this sojour sojourn of life and in trying to arrive at God and they and they do but the the understanding continues to deepen as they keep moving and continues to bring more flavor and for that to have that experience it is also important. Sometimes we make a mistake and this is quite common especially those who take this esoteric approach.

Essoteric means this like um you can say mystical approach. Mhm. What happens with this mystical approach is that they forget the rational approach. And those who take too much of a rational approach they forget this mystical. Let me explain this further. Arabi says look the Quran the Quran is both the Quran and foran Quran means jama to combine to bind and foran means to separate ethmological root means so he says read the Quran with both eyes read the Quran throughan but also through Quran so we need to see the world through the perspective of

imaginal which is when we see that we understand the connection between the divine and the creation. We understand that we understand God is merciful from our way. But then we also need to use the rational mind that is because if we don't do that both ways, if you just look at with one eye, we will be misled. Yeah.

And that is where we need to follow this approach. Follow both modes of knowledge. Use them both to understand the divine. Yeah. And it's in some ways it's like saying that look to people who may be confused by let's say uh who listening to you may be uncertain about certain things and uh uh let's take let's take anything let's take us let's you look at from a physics perspective um as you start to reduce us you look at us we are matter which is reduced to an atomically now we are when when We're

reducing things to atoms. We are for the most part empty space. Because if you because if if you if you blew up an atom, they say um that at its very core would be if if you had it as uh as as large as the the solar system at its core, the the nucleus at its core, it would be like just a park on Earth or something like that.

It would be so for the most part, atoms are empty space. Now we know that as a fact in in physics but yet we can't believe it because everything because it doesn't it doesn't make sense to us. How can we be empty space but we are [laughter] so so misa look at this we've spoken about this like let's you know my water bottle.

One level of reality is that it's blue color. Yeah. But then it's made of atoms structured in certain way. So that's another level of reality. Yeah. Again, you can see there are multiple truths to how we see the world because the blue doesn't actually exist. So and and [clears throat] the space from a physic physics perspective doesn't really exist. It's it's what is made in between and so everything is showing the complexity.

It is showing displaying manifesting the divine name. Allah is that comprehensive name that combine combines all names all contradictions and everything. So and the word Allah itself you know the more we get to know God the more we know yeah at the same time everything everything is reflecting him but everything is nothing like him as well.

So we're in this stage of he not he and this is indicated from the word which we spoke before Allah is is derived from which doesn't just mean God but it also means perplexed perplexion being perplexed. So that is that is yeah so this is one of the root meanings as well. Yeah you're right actually. Wow. So what happens is that the more I understand divine it's like I know I cannot say more because the more I say about him the less I'm talking the truth because the beauty of Islam that it is for everyone.

So there will be many people who this it's it they just need Islam at a very simple reductionist level and it is there for them and it's wonderful and it works and there's people who need it at a very legalistic juristic level and it's there for them and it's wonderful and and then there's people who will go into it with a bit with a bit more uh reason and it's there and then there's people who will deep dive into the the the the depths of this ocean trying to seek out pearls and it is there for them and it will show them a different reality and and this is I I

feel that the really if one could say the miracle of this tradition which is not found in many other traditions in that way. Yeah, I I would agree with you because that is what this tradition teaches us. It teaches us that look you have to recognize your position. Your position is a state of ambiguity. It doesn't mean you don't know the truth. But even that truth you know it is delimited and therefore it is not the absolute truth.

The absolute truth only the divine knows. Look at how could we know the absolute you know it's almost uh it's bewildering because you think our world is constrained by words. Words are limited. It is constrained by our own intellectual capacity which is limited by the brain. It is con it is restricted to our experience which is limited. How could we know anything that is outside?

Can you if I ask people to think outside of space? That's a that's impossible. You cannot think out. If you think outside of space, you just think of something outside. You think of space in another space. You can't the human mind cannot think outside of space.

And if I may add to this point now once we take this approach call it whatever mystism sufiism whatever one wants to live the path the path the path as I as I call it. The reality is that you cannot escape the manifestation of the divine names. Whatever you think, whatever you perceive, it is nothing but God's names being manifested.

You can doubt God, you can blame God, but it's simply the manifestation of his divine names. And so now what happens is that you are seeing only and that wajjud you're just seeing wajjud the ground of being the ground of being. Exactly. Tillic would say the ground of being but exactly. Yeah. So now with with that sense what happens? Let's say I'm reading something and I'm getting doubts of the divine.

I read something. Once I have this way of thinking I know oh this is just a manifestation or this is a reflection of the divine. It allows me to perceive that in this is also any suffering I'm having I know in this is also why because like you know I have a son I have two kids and when they ask me some things I tell them look you're not at this age where you can understand when you grow older you'll understand but they know that because I'm the father and I care about them they will trust me now because I have trusted God and I know that God loves me because he has said that and I know that he has created

me to adore adore him and I put my faith in him, I will eventually know the answers. I may not know the answers right now but all I know is that I you know he has said that he is good therefore I can only see good. Someone may say that people die. Yes, that is horrible. That is bad. But the only reason I can sure you see death I can understand when people say death is let's say it was a tragic death.

So the pain element is bad. But death in and of itself why does it have to be bad? And it's it's it may be sad from because we're no longer in this game from this perspective. say, "Oh my god, the person's gone and that's sad." But it could it could also equally be seen as an amazing, incredible uh phenomenon. Obviously, just because we can't grasp it because we think, well, and I really I do think, you know, the words of Mike Tyson when he said said in his interview, he said that I've had all of these things in life and I didn't really deserve them and you know, life's been amazing.

If life has been this amazing, how incredible do you think death will be? And you wouldn't expect someone like him to say these words. But yeah, sorry I sorry for interrupting you. I was just saying that. Yeah. Right. You know, death is a metaphor of wjud changing from one state to another. Wow. So there's a poem as well.

Exactly. Yeah. that he says what is death except these uh elements kind of um withering away. Yeah, I suppose or Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. dissipating kind of just Yeah. But so once we recognize that this way allows us to see nothing but good truly.

Now the reason we say something is bad yes bad exists but the reason is that there's gradation of wjud. So the closer you are to wajjud the more goodness you have. The only pure good is God. The further away you go you will feel darkness. So for example when a person gets angry lies that person feels bad from inside they feel something intrinsically not right. The reason is that it's going away from wajjud but that the recognition of feeling bad itself is a sign of goodness.

Conscience. Exact. Exactly. If we are able to say something is bad, it is in relation to another. So for example, in university we have grades A plus, A, B, B+. All our passing grades but B+ and C are the lowest grades compared to A+. So the gradation of being is that way that it has the highest level. The mam the have and then we have lower levels. So if we say something is good in relation to other because their gradation their intensity their intensity of degree of wjud is higher and stronger than another level.

Yeah. But then somebody could say well wronging others is wrong. How do you see in that the uh manifestation or the of the divine? How do you so in dul for example oppression and things like this right? If the so Adam alisam was taught all the names and that is what makes us al-ins all the name means his divine names.

If there was no zul how could we understand how could we understand ins that's the reason we we have a complete picture when we see zul we know what is justice we know what it means to provide justice to someone else we you know we then understand when god says that he will recompense others or he will judge others that is the complete knowledge we are getting this is one interpretation and it it is obviously free will people being given u given an awareness and Allah says you know

people understanding that what they're doing that this is harmful but still choosing to do it so they they have that realization but also they they could refrain but they choose to act out and that person who is being punished I remember one of my teachers explaining to me that that person who was experiencing zul because of that zul he got a high mham in Jenna.

So that zoom that he was experiencing which was wrong. It was through that zoom that he he he was facing with patience that he was able to be elevated in paradise. The world is temporary. It's not real. The Jenna paradise is more real and it's it's in it's uh it's forever. This so this is one this world is but a just a uh it is but an illusion although a very convincing one it is it is an illusion if seen it is an illusion maya if seen from itself but if seen through the names of the divine it has reality

it has reality to the extent that the divine gives its beingness it would wow that is that is that is beautiful I have to say wow that that is something. Wow. She doctor, I have to say, Shukran, it's this this has just been it's one of those conversations that really you've and and and I know we were speaking about this before as well and it's going on and it's you can just you just can't get enough of deep um grounded but also enthralling uh conversations.

And Shukran uh Shukran once again much love for that. I would um you know what we have to get you again I want uh to inshallah discuss because there's quite a few other topics as well that I think are incredibly important and um people did mention uh quite a uh um there were quite a few things in the comments as well about some of the books and especially um the path to Sufism.

If I may add, recently I've been reading this book by Dr. Muttar Ali. The name is Philosophical Sufiism, an introduction to the school of Arabi. I would suggest read this. This is a wonderful book. Amazing book. Now think about this Mutis. This is so sad that think about it. We list you know our in the past people would you know in in Spain for example Andaloo people would show off their books.

they would you know when people would come to the house they would show their books the Muslim world unfortunately it seems are not focused in towards reading there there's lack of reading unfortunately right and and every everyone I think that's everywhere now unfortunately but you're right it's and and you have to recognize knowledge cannot just come through listening to my video for example it has to be supplemented has exactly so this book which is philosophical sufism by mktar Ali wonderful book but before that I would say one should read uh William Shiddik's Arabi here to the prophets h e i r here to the prophets

that is the introduction introductory book then you read this and always you have to a recognize one thing when you're taking this path recognize your you have limited knowledge you cannot show pride and seek guidance from the divine and remember the divine is a merciful host you knock on the door the first time he will open the door. You don't have to wait for too long.

Allah the car the caravan is one of mercy and it is one that always welcomes people as taught by the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam that you must always always welcome people and never scare them away. Uh and nobody has the right really to turn away from from this door because it is the door to God. It it doesn't belong to any one of us. People it's been absolutely amazing.

Very quickly I will uh uh just some of the super chats that were said Sammy much love we have already disco we have already discussed laser kith sh was at the beginning of today's uh discussion so if when you do go back and play it back we did cover in uh the different meanings and different interpretations uh to that gold global shukran much love uh for your support and azerati there was salam from am from Dallas, Texas sharing his love and I see Sarasan people much love much love all of you uh

I will share uh Dr. Sayyad's uh contact as well as in the what we shared previously on I will put it on the in the description if people want to make contact. I don't know if you have mentioned my Skype ID that we're just using right now for this. Would you would you want to share that or Sure. Yeah. This one that the one I'm using it right now. Correct. Okay. The Skype. Sure. Uh uh okay. And I'll I'll check what because I have when we did the last podcast I did uh share some contact details in the description.

So I will uh replicate them as well. That might not be correct anymore because Oh, is it not? I think so. Yeah, this one is okay. Okay, I'll do that as instructed by the doctor himself. I'll share the Skype ID if you want to get in touch. Um Norah Parish uh Shukran and much love for the super chat saying thank you Dr. Say Hammed for this education. Thank you as always Mi for bringing us the best Islamic content on YouTube.

[laughter] Shukran. Shukran. I'm uh I really um cherish this opportunity because you see to me this is not I'm not interested in trying to convince people of a particular way and I'm not saying that we have to every idea we come across we have to um adopt it or we have to alter our ways to to what I'm saying is just engage an idea let it be different and Just think of don't be reactionary.

Be understand that this is from the vast of Islam. This is from the legacy of Islam. Even if you find yourself not at ease with it, you can think well okay h and you can put it aside. You don't have to. If if I may add this religion is a religion of love and mercy. Whoever says it's not, whoever misleads and says that it's full of just punishments, that is not proper Islam.

The prophet was and this Quran, this Quran that we have been given is is the love letters that the divine has given us. If we read it properly, we will find love and truth. But if we read it with our own understanding, we will be deviated. So just one thing I just wanted to mention because people is connect Islam. It does and I I think that cannot be emphasized enough and you know when somebody says something from the heart it hits the heart and that is this this message of Islam is a message of love of compassion and it

came to make people into better human beings who can then in turn serve mankind. It did not come to make people kings or to make people rule over mankind. It came to serve mankind and that was beginning with the messenger of Allah sallallahu alaihi wasallam. I uh I take I hope people uh really do find inspiration in these words.

People it's been amazing. Um once again uh Dr. Sey Shukran I'd like to thank you for taking the time out and sharing these words um and meanings with us and people for tuning in. As always, I'll put up the the exit page which does have um it will remind you YouTube all the all the things. If you haven't already liked and subscribed, then people what on earth are you waiting for?

So, get over there, like, subscribe, uh click the notifications, and if you haven't, uh or if you also there is for those of you that are interested, there always is Patreon as well. You can become a part of that people. Take very good care of yourselves. And good evening wherever you are. Okay.