Veedu Vidz | Crossroads, Consciousness & Community | MindTrap with Mufti #13

right okay that's better I kind of paused it for I just put the blank screen off all right cool we're good to go it wasn't picking up the mic is now Oh fry people of right of right of right we owe live doing it doing it first of all just want to apologize about yesterday it did the system wasn't picking it up as well and if there are any issues today we'll just have to kind of be with it insha'Allah

right so tonight's guest people of the one and only let me just bring the profile picture right before you as you can see the esteemed guest look at the profile picture you're probably thinking is it a model from a modeling agency and to bring them in in in the flesh Allah Alan thank you for having me Sheikh Mufti sobs slowly comes to

everyone how is everyone doing for the delayed kind of start as well to use well I know you're not a full-on vampire yes so sugar and fall kind of for waiting it out no no absolute pleasure right you've got a lot of people just checking I could see them awry you're active on Facebook I can see the comments coming through some people have

asked about dr. Shabbir Ali yes I have rescheduled next week Tuesday and hopefully the machine will be much more powerful by then so hang in till then but for now mr. Vito vids himself people this is rid of it some of you know him from the skids on dr. zakir naik in fact some of in fact he's probably more recognized as dr.

zakir naik yes Moody's after me that's how I'm very good man how are you doing in this lockdown corona time very very strange times that we're living in spend most the day at home so what can I say just

same old same old really I can't really kind of work around that but I I have I've managed to set up a a kind of gym at home which I'm having to use as a substitute but yeah it's just the usual vampire lifestyle and just getting by so we do just for some people who've maybe

not so acquainted with with your path and journey a bit about yourself and how you I mean you are you are an ex-muslim somebody who and and your path is still pretty much concerned with faith in a way in a way it's still kind of entangled whether it's to understand it to kind of maybe whether it's just simply from a sociological or anthropological perspective that why do people still believe in certain things why you know isn't this curious isn't you know do they not see a contradiction or or whether it's from simply an

analytic perspective or a historical perspective you're still quite concerned to some extent I take it a bit about your background if you don't mind yeah yeah sure I think everything you've just said you know it's true you know I think people who genuinely speaking who are interested in religion concerned about what the you know the truth is what is the meaning of life son and so forth where do I stand in this universe in this story of life that we're living in so I was always curious about religion from like a young age you know I would say that my family are sort

of like kind of not sort of like you know the average Pakistani family that you know they pray this far as to do everything they were never Salafi they were never Sufi they were just sort of stand Pakistani kind of family vision is important but you know weddings we danced we listened to print your music so it was none of that Haram Haram at the same time well I'm trying to paint a picture for you because all she said a lot people asked me oh boy you said a few sue for you got the wrong kind of Islam all that kind of stuff it was a bog-standard Pakistani Muslim sort of conservative upbringing you could say not oppressive not you know my parents oppressed me anything nothing

like that so I went from es7 I went to Christian school yeah a seven eight I went to another Church of England school then from year nine two year 11 I went to a boys Muslim school in that in London he's actually use of Islam school than if you know oh yeah that's cool mmm and that's probably where I discovered properly my Muslim identity before that it was all Pakistani energy and I thought all the parks our needs are no a Muslim and all the Muslims are no Pakistani so everyone's a Muslim has a

Pakistani despite the fellow the coppers Arab Pakistani and vice-versa so I'm like oh what's an Arab Oh what's a Bengali oh what's this what's that so anyway a bearing in mind I come from a very white area in Essex right it's not even wrong it's my ask so so yeah so I would say from year ninety eleven that's probably where I discovered my Muslim identity at the same time 7-7 happened while I was at school

yeah yeah yeah I have 28 again between 9 now so she knows something actually when I was googling YouTube for to get one of the images for the show so one of the questions that Google immediately as it kind of preempts your question so as you write like video vids the first thing that came up with it as a suggestion was age he said feed of its age know that I

should google myself more but I don't so yes 7/7 happened while I was at school hmm and of course 9/11 happened when I was in year 7 yes 6 I was 11 years old so that these kind of events they're kind of especially as you're a kid obviously I don't know the full complexity of what's going on but I knew something had happened and my faith would had something to do with it so anyway skip forward to you around University I became very very interested in religion curious I was part of the the the I sock in my university of the Islamic Society I wasn't like the head brother or anything but I was friends with the head

brother of the head whatever the the Emir has we used to say the Emir of rock Oliver University where the Emir anyways so I was always interested and in fact interesting thing I actually represented Royal Holloway Islamic Society there wasn't there's a debate against this Athey sky from the college down the road and I she was the Muslim guy speaking against atheism black brothers and I yeah I was the guy against the Atheist yeah and he did a terrible job I must say even now looking back at it I was way better than him

he was over he was yes I really really take arguments so so anyway yes I either taken a real interest in religion but yeah I think it was when I was 20 4:25 where I kind of left Islam and it was a very kind of painful moment for me a person speaking because I really did believe in it truly I would never say I was like the most sort of you know five-time prayer or the most you could say we do religious in that sense like a practical sense I know a lot of people like you know that we trust me they do

DeMars I wake up father I was never that but I genuinely ideologically believed this was the truth the truth mm-hmm and so yeah I kind of left Islam with that whole sort of year period was a very strange sort of time for me because he sort of wondering who the hell am I and what does it all mean all that kind of stuff but I was always interested in cut in a comedy even before and I always felt like Muslims around were too we were too uptight my me to relax too serious man to see so if if I was gonna you know highlight my journey as an ex-muslim I wouldn't do it through

necessarily debate primarily it would be comedy humor and that's where Zach and I came from all those hundreds of hours me watching Zach and I think he's the best to bear in the world I had actually subconsciously learned how to speak like him I didn't even try and be the impression I was we were just having a conversation me and my friend and he came up in the conversation and I said oh yes I can like you like he says like typically with a book and I said like that and he just sort of stopped over how did you do that how did I do what it was I did a voice oh she's a

beautiful question those videos are incredibly viral so I mean they did I think a very well in getting a message across definitely I mean so they're just so and then you went you've actually incorporated other characters as well along the way

[Music] so it's been a good couple of of years I mean with I suppose when you've kind of arrived at a decision and you thought well look you know it's same for me were the issues in terms of your family or not really or was it well I mean no nope exciting but still firm was gonna be over the moon and hey this Sun you know is left Islam but I always felt confident telling my family because I knew they were very reasonable people they were never gonna punish me or lash out at me or aggressive or violent or anything like that I know some people

have a different story but for me personally I I'm not saying oh my god like my parents have disowned me no it was not it was not like that of course there were tense moments painful moments but it was never anything that I couldn't handle yeah at one point in time for like a week I felt physically sick where I was like I'm in this whole thing my intention is never to hurt my parents or make them upset or anything like that you know at the other day I'm still less understood my parents I still love them and vice versa but if I was having this sort of we could say you know I'm not rebelling but there's a moment outside of me making fun on YouTube and being all this amazing

whatever making these videos not a percent of it was I'm trying to get back at my parents and obviously when they feel the pain I feel even more comic I caused it so that was a tough time but I think in the end actually ironically brought us together because obviously once you open it's like a Pandora's box once you let it out and said well why the whole ex-muslim stuff then he's not talking about other issues which aren't even related to Islam but just sort of personal issues and other stuff so I think in the end they're not I think we've we've reconciled pretty apt pretty exactly hundred life pretty

amicably so um I'm happy okay what some people have asked as well on the on the comments that what worth I mean some people have asked what were the real reasons but I would say what was some of the key reasons that were the kind of breaking the in your sight what do you feel that in terms of by the way just to say I know some people have said that he has liked and things like this the the stream but it is as far away the recording is actually still fine so it will when it

does play will play fine I know I have I'm meant to be rewiring the entire thing so hopefully for tomorrow will be entirely rewired the live stream will be much better for as well so in case you're asking about the sound is breaking it's not much I can do about that during the live stream if it breaks for you but in the recording it will be smooth yeah yep so sorry yeah so some of the what was some of the issues that kind of yeah did it for you I think I think number one has to be like science for even from a year from early age like I would say actually my father who was a great influence on me he probably has

very similar views to yourself in terms of Hadees in terms of miracles into the science like you to you and him would just get on like whatever house of fire your views so he always arable one one time behind like a Koran school what I can honestly you know you you know you good like a Quran upon a Saturday you read a bit of a break you learned a story whatever it is so he would always ask me like so what do you learn today what was the story or the lesson you learn and and that that day was I think it was you know you know the the stone from heaven or it was white and then it became black black stone the black stone and I said oh this is what they taught us that it was white it was pure but when it came down it

became black because from the sins of humanity know that I'm a dad obviously you know he's a funny thing but my dad is an actual medical doctor so I'm now being the fake medical doctor because I can like but anyway so he so he said if you think about it rationally you know when when something is really hot it's like white and then it cools down and becomes black so he would always try and show me there's a rational explanation for this we don't have to go for miracles all the time so I said well what about Moses when he split the CEA got all but the gravity of the Moon and the miracle was the timing but the actual event itself wasn't a miracle and like I would always be like so why are you saying

this as a lone voice and with Imam Saab and the Sheikh Sabah oh these guys they're saying no it's not and when I told my friends oh my dad said this too like your dad said why are you so your dad knows more than all these shakes and your dad was so on one side I did understand my dad's logic like he made more sense I felt but on the other side I'm like well why is everyone else saying the opposite like if he's gonna arrive and how all the Muslims like completely missed this like obvious thing so that was my kind of data like from a young age of like around 9 8 10

whatever that kind of age and that of that obviously intensified or increased at the older I got so I was like nah man listen Islam is rational it has to be in line with the way the universe works and I actually remember when I was in BCB this is funny because when I was a in secondary school 9/11 had just happened like two year a year before and I went into a Christian school I was the only box I said that was one of three Pakistani guys the two other box like

Christians yes anyway I was a Muslim guy in that school so when you're the only Muslim guy or the only minority in the whole school you kind of defensive about who you are so when people would like say so in Islam like do you speak Islam at home whatever I'm like no okay why can't you have a girlfriend I were able to be a girl from politte as I know it's like on doing my religion whatever so all the others nonsense was I was

redefine Civ like that kind of stuff when you go to a Muslim square round you must a man Brown and whatever then you can just relax but when I relaxed and I actually asked these Muslim my friends and the teachers about Islam so I kind of thought oh they would be reasonable like me or like my dad but they were they were the same morally sob know her arm shave or all that kind of stuff so I was kind of annoyed frustrated is this what we really believe and I was llama sounds llama science and they just know this not interested and I wrote one time there was the he was actually from Russia from Rochdale you might might

know him his name Sheikh Mohammed Khan and missed by his that here like five different names anyway so there he's like this cool umami name always used to get into beef but outside of class he would cool anyway so at the football whatever he's like you know any in a very Pakistani more VSOP kind of way you know and the Prophet was born and he didn't even have mucus on his body he didn't even have the umbilical cord and you know with so anyway I was there so shaking my head in the thingy in the in the mosque whatever the the prayer room but ever while he was doing this and the headmaster at the time he saw this right bearing in mind the

headmaster clean shaved and he's a doctor Pakistani guy so he's into science I need I think his background was in chemistry right so he's kind of like my dad anyway so that off was he pulls me aside and he's like believed you were shaking go ahead while the Imam was saying all this stuff but I just said listen III I don't think he was born of a miraculous kind of you know no mucus kind of birth where I just thought he was of course he's a prophet but he had a normal birth and everything and I don't believe in this kind of things and he just said well done keep thinking like that and then he just walked away okay so they may be used maybe there are some people would like me but they do but you would never say publicly so he

okay so I was kind of encouraged by that so I would say to ask your questions very long-winded way I said I would say no primarily number one was science and then I think once I got near the end or when I realized actually am i Muslim or not other things became more apparent to me but number one always has to be science for me personally speaking like consistency basically miracle is a big thing for me man because it like I always thought sorry I'm going on but no but I was a kid I had this Hindu friend right and I went to his house and I saw it like his gods and everything whatever it was and even as like we were like little kids so like seven eight whatever

like that and I mean he was here this picture of his god it was like Hanuman I think his monkey Gordon it Ganesh and other whatever and and he had one God that was human ish like a like a human I said to man like monkey Claude and elephant god that doesn't make sense right and he's like yeah I don't think so either I said this guy maybe he's real but these other two they're not real right and it's like yeah they're probably not real and I always thought my religion was the more reasonable and everyone else was a bit like Oh Harry for everyone believes and all these commercials but then what I realized Muslims have

miracles as well and we have our own thing I'm like why are you saying Hinduism is stupid and irrational when you have the same kind of stuff or mythical whatever kind of creatures or in miracles as well like you're not really in a position to say you your miracles are super but my miracle is reasonable or rational that that for me didn't fly so miracles science and afterwards what other sort of morality came in but primarily science no I can totally understand because I still see a lot of these things and explain them somebody had asked about the black stone

and I've already got a clip on that so you know somebody that asked do I believe that what you just mention about the story of it being white and so on and I've in my clip highlighted I mean just very briefly now otherwise you can watch my clip which is in my details that I believe the black stone was either a meteor as were many of the black stones in Arabia at that time or it was kind of residue and remnants from volcanic kind of lava whatever it was actually gonna be an [ __ ] but it come from because there were a lot of

multiple coppers in in Arabia pre Islam at least 20 if not more so I've got a detailed video on that and I don't feel the black stone is sacred per se obviously it's part of its ritualized and part of the kind of ritual therefore it has this kind of aura to it but it's not per se sacred yes oh okay I mean so would you right now this this whole thing of you know these things that have bugged you about religion and so on to be fair they but

many people even within religion and you know may have whether they left the fold or not in many cases maybe many of them haven't but they've kind of reconciled in their own way would you would you feel that having left religion you still find yourself in certain irrational beliefs or structures or rituals oh I think human beings are have all sorts of irrational things that we do on a daily basis and report not even aware of it hundred percent I don't think if you leave religion you become super rational now and you are like a robot and

everything is a hundred novel of course I said to my family of my friends if you liked me before you like me now if you didn't like me before you won't like me now so I'm the same person it's just that I just inside here in my brain I just don't believe in it but I still have the stupid same habits I still like this I still support Pakistan cricket team I still listen to koala I still do all the same stuff that I did before I'm still the same human being in that sense I mean this is this is it people think you know what it is there are two types of apostasy there's there's the hard

apostasy where someone was in a very oppressive or suppressive environment and if they had very little freedom and everything was dictated to by Islam with their parents and when they broke they had to break in a way that caused such a huge shock wave that their life radically changed right where it was it wasn't just simply mum and dad I disagree and then I qualified whatever it was like you're no longer a son you know no daughter piss off gay at the house there to flee in the middle of the night where it was those kind of people I find radically changed their lives and because they have to because that's what's required to get over that threshold yeah

myself it was a very soft very soft and whatever warm wood everyone call it apostasy where I'm still livid with my with my parents right now I still beat it's there's there's no there's no issue so I didn't need to change like I didn't get a new haircut again nose ring and be like you know to do that I'm not that guy you know I'm saying so for me was a very different story so if you look at X Muslims you can see who's harder which we had a harder policy over softphone because is that what you feel would you feel is what kind of results in the

reactionary stance from the person because you see a lot of X Muslims a lot of atheists and ex-muslims specifically since we're speaking about Islam they are very kind of loud and proud about the X Muslim thing very in-your-face it's very and this was something I was just saying to you earlier on just before going like that you know with you I've to be honest I don't think I've never I I would imagine many people don't even know your next Muslim because you apart from discussing the the dialogues involved you don't you say it

so often it's not so clear I mean is that a result of the kind of break out process you feel yeah I think he's I mean if you compare every like for example you look at gay rights or gay people like I don't know like say four years ago it was like I'm gay I'm proud I'm here I'm loud I've got hey I've got this dress and I wanna because for them it was like at that moment in time really controversial to be open and gay you can't be a black power you know I'm proud to be black black is beautiful at that time it was like you know what we don't want to give black the rice so he had the whole story so I think every community every people go through a

phase where at that time X Muslim is everything I'm ex-muslim frou-frou I'm defined by expose him you know if Islam if this F that but hopefully and I hopefully you move away from that because because it becomes normalized and it isn't a big do anymore I would love that where someone could leave Islam and it's not a big deal I I would hope the term or label X Muslim dies out because I'm not just an explosive I'm a human being who is interested in movies and books and cricket and go to the gym and wherever it is yeah X Muslim is one part of me but it's not I was something before explicitly and I'll be something even after it so it

all depends on what sort of timeline your or you're on basically there's too many people they feel that you see certain ex-muslims they would feel when looking at them I mean I don't just mean that people hating because people will hate you know they just you're gonna find them everywhere but to something they will feel that have they just left one team for another team so to speak there has itself become a kind of I mean religion isn't the right word but I kind

of pseudo religion is it a sense of belonging that we're striving for so you go from one to the other and now you're stuck in that I think on some level all human beings regardless of religion I mean you know football clubs or CrossFit or whatever are won some sort of belonging once once want some sort of community that's why some every level that's not that's not even unique to religion so there is that sort of I want to feel I want to go to a place but I'm accepted for who I am of course there is that on the on the

other side I would say I spent some time with some ex Muslims in Amsterdam but she's probably all good combination of deprived Muslims and now you were in Amsterdam but yeah but and I realized like me I was with Horus I was with Arman yeah yeah we really enjoyed that but I was with all these guys and we disagreed so much on so many different issues

this is this what I'm say - so if I get if I get a an atheist who is let's say left-wing and put him against an atheist to his right-wing so - laughing a left-wing Questers right-wing the fact that the Atheist means nothing in that conversation because they was saying what we need government intervention I think what actually we don't so the fact they're ex-muslim maybe if I'm facing like a Muslim or a Christian but but we're a mighty mess wasn't mad but once you start talking amongst each other you realize we have so many different and opposing views but I don't care it's fine them yeah I don't mind

having opposed really interesting and I wish I could almost show that you must listen we're not one doctrine or one whatever is we have people like myself who are libertarian pre-market and you've got guys who are communists and I like I will have a bigger gripe against communists and having Muslims do you feel though it will become or is has already set out on this process of becoming like how Nietzsche would say that look when you you know fight monsters you become a monster that in that sense it has take this taking on these controlling aspects of religion do

you feel that this is or not at all in the sense of this club becomes is it easy to then leave that club if you become part and parcel of it I would say I didn't officially join it I mean there was no sort of ceremony or you know we sing a Shahada in the club people will always by even within the ex Muslim scene if you wanna put it that way there are clubs that are formed like you know people have the different approaches I mean we were speaking earlier about there are some as X Muslims that are

very in-your-face provocative there are some X Muslims who are not there are some X Muslims who support Islamic reform there are some who don't there are some X Muslims who like myself don't have a problem saying alhamdulillah mashallah and there's some estimate some too would not say that even as a joke there was a comment here was some people had picked up on you saying I'll haven't any laugh oh yeah a few people had said that oh I think he's forgot he's say again so so so there's like I have zero problem saying hamdullah mashallah in a sarcastic way in a genuine way I have no problem saying these words good for me it's like a an English atheist white guy

says I forgot segment oh you know oh I pray that I pray the weather gets better like for them it's not even a thing I suppose in many ways like I remember back many years ago when I was studying Arabic in Damascus University so like going into the 90s the mid-late kind of nineties but there were people there that had come to study Arabic they make they were European American non-muslim white but they had also picked up words like al hamdulillah inshaallah just as part of the you know because in the end

it would say kafir hi eluc and and they would say al hamdulillah beside an honest 18 shot of law they would say these words as well a parcel of the cultural exactly but it's part of the culture kind of thing right so when someone says do this I'm like inshallah dick they're like you know we will see or if you have a really good news like you know it's just like I'm thinking it's just there yes so the tongue even though his consciously committed Cofer but subconsciously the mind stayed Indian people see cool she could

suffer say exactly this is part of the cultural language its part the cultural thing IIIi really I really do it's like an atheist Jew you know going for honey whatever very popular Jewish contributors most of them many of them many of them many of many unbelieving exactly yeah yeah I mean you know you mentioned here about in Amsterdam and although it's not that but you mentioned mushrooms and yeah

your thoughts on this I mean this has often like the whole the portal of psychedelics that opens up for many people this this kind of realm this world is this something that you've had an interesting in understanding or fathom in consciousness and is that something that intrigues you it does you know I obviously raised the Muslim had a very negative view of anything that was weed or alcohol I mean of mushrooms whatever the and I didn't do any of that kind of as a Muslim and took it very seriously

so when I went to Amsterdam I was like well I want to try mushrooms and I have been listening to Graham Hancock I'm sure you do yeah I think he's I'm hoping to interview him soon but he's been very busy so we'll see weapons so eyewitness to Graham Hancock net-like Joe Rogan and all the other guys alright listen they're functioning people they're smart people they are people that get stuff done they're very accomplished in their own industry the idea of this guy who takes mushrooms or smokes weed is as a lazy slob and like that's not real a lot of these like MMA guys take the smoke weed and like did they they get stuff they get stuff more done than me and you

put together these they got at the top of their food right so this perception that if you take mushrooms or like smoke weed then you're some loser is obviously fake so when I took mushrooms in Amsterdam so first I took a space cake which I didn't really enjoy it was very disoriented cannabis yeah that was just

very very disorientating and I kind of liked it but kind of didn't like it after that I'm like I'm not doing that again so I wasn't interested in that mushrooms on the other hand I think it's truffles over is called there was something else that was something else man like look the colors in every one has a different experience so for me it was about colors hearing and and and sight so it became like a 4d movie everything was so much more vivid than real and the sounds became more beautiful the colors became like so I like imagine going from black-and-white

to 4k I felt so I was like this is crazy I think I wish I was listen to qawalli while I was doing it but I was in a conference with Amsterdam was because we were at a conference everyone was speaking or whatever it was I was in the conference hall okay with being some other exposure this one set you ex-muslims elapsed time is all good not a good combination we in the whole so what I think Horace was actually speaking for someone else I don't remember what he said what I remember he was look really good what he was saying

it and we were in the back row taking mushrooms so I took mushrooms it's like if you have never drank before you're going to a pub you like how do i I don't do I get don't get a wine I didn't know so we just took it right so we took in like about half an hour later my leg starts tingling and all of a sudden the room becomes so much more interesting what people are saying it becomes so

much more interesting the colors become rules things that move in I was I looked at a picture of my phone of you know van Gogh painting now I get why he did so he was really really interesting experience for me and I would I you know what I'm say this I come from a Pakistani background the amount of tension that our parents take and our elders take they need some mushrooms or we to them honestly man just put it in one handy Ness it'll be like definitely feel that

psychedelics is something that it's a so unfortunate that it's not explored by so many people and I do feel that the the kind of shared properties within I don't mean the physical ingredient properties but the shared experience properties of like like the colors the shapes the things you've mentioned Panoptix how people see things I do feel in a way it is this another realm that we can kind of tap into and I know DMT is at a much slightly slightly but a more intensely

III plan to go to Brazil and take ayahuasca when I'm 40 45 years old so it's not so if you're only did that make you it wasn't spirit it was a spiritual it was just like I realized there's so much beauty in life but it sounds cheesy and cringe and everything I get it I get it but there really is a lot of beauty in my friend sometimes you just like well I'll take much I took mushrooms and when I

came outside of the lecture the the conference or whatever it was I was just standing in Amsterdam I was looking at the trams that the cycles it was a beautiful day with Sun and I was like wow this is amazing this is just like I can't believe like normally every day you just walk past and wouldn't think anything of it like the simple things in life Amsterdam became my own sort of Qibla

yeah he was a really good experience and I wouldn't have to do again it was not obviously addictive or anything but I won doing it again in the right circumstance you are relaxed and comfortable because the one of the dangers is that you can get bit a bit paranoid and the problem was that obviously to me I'm just worried but I was V juvett so some people had come to see me or want to talk to me about really important intellectual stuff and I'm like yeah bro this is so it was a bit so I became a bit paranoid I'm like oh [ __ ] this is some sort of him to me so I became true concentrated and when I started looking in their eyes got really beautiful eyes

I got distracted for what they were saying so there is that dangerous ball of things like look beauty your appreciation in life of things around these horizons like you mentioned the Sun just just how things are view and our appreciation of value of them do you feel that like you know it's a question that all of this in essence has no meaning would you feel that this has no

meaning in life like the the kind of the meaning of being with a capital B or the meaning of meaning itself like you know is this all just nothing but randomized kind of cohesion of stuff as far as I can tell with my very very limited knowledge and science and whatever probably yes but scientific kind of response but as an individual lesser because you know you mentioned look as I

was on let's say what I was experiencing as a psychonaut right so you'll you're kind of like coming to realize Wow and look at all of these and and a lot of people that have I feel personally everybody died I'm very passionate about these kind of things of these psychedelic experiences and I've argued that as a religious thing notice that I don't feel any of these things are Haram and I'm actually very kind of I find it absurd government's deemed illegal as I just said on you know recently as well I said that the thought that a plant is legal

is so obnoxious I mean that's crazy crazy it's crazy but people who've experienced the these do have this kind of spiritual if I may be spiritual whether we call it that or known I sometimes don't like calling it spiritual but I like they have this consciousness experience and the fact that there is some meaning in life that there is some meaning to life that there is as individuals we we kind of feel that I mean do you not feel I think the whole question of meaning like I said

that the scientific response is no or we just matter and particles moving around okay but if we are if you look at if we compare ourselves with other animals where we are the ones that have the highest level of consciousness or we're the ones that kind of just want to say broke out the matrix like we look we have that soft realization more so than any other animal made it out of the cave exactly exactly so because we have that we on one level we think we're so special that this whole universe was designed for us on another level we actually have the power to create

meaning so we are actually all creators in in our own lives by releasing relationships but in that when you say we have the ability to create mmm does that in and of itself not show that meaning must be something that must exist like us because if we are creating meanings then meaning with the capital M must have some does that not mean automatically that that has value yes that's a good question I mean I would say I mean again like I said in my super

deep and I probably to have the mushrooms down to this we have this podcast in Amsterdam and all this is Korona thing is over we have a sesh there but meaning this is this is a question which I've grappled with and I'm sure many other people with brighter Minds have grappled with but the the simple sort of layman's answer that I can give is if it like I don't know if there's an absolute meaning of this universe or an absolute meaning for

mankind but all I know is that the mean that we create in our lives all those an abstract construct I can't touch it I can't give it to you I can't say here's my meaning man but our mind understands it in a way that it can make me do stuff it's powerful enough for me for for it to motivate me and other people to do whatever is that we feel like we need to do and get through our date if it was just coming to that point because I'm speaking about like the intelligibility of being I mean salts or you that being in and of itself can be understood and we can make meaning of

this if it was just simply getting through something mmm surely you know humans aside all of all creatures survive in fact the survival instinct is one of the most powerful even in humans in all creatures it's one of the most powerful instincts they have in addition to obviously reproducing and things like that but so if it was just to get us by I'm sure we could have survived as just primates on the survive man kind of thing we could have kind of just got by reef if that so this is actually an

interesting point like we don't actually need to have I mean strictly speaking meaning to get by I mean what is the meaning of a line on day to day basis doesn't have that deep level meaning that we have but I mean I like I said I'm not scientists but I would assume or imagine that our consciousness arose you could say maybe or as a byproduct of something so we have greater mind you can where we are problem solvers we don't have the physical ability as the other animals on the Savannah but we can problem-solve we can communicate we can create we can innovate and out of that cake okay I came this by-product which is called

consciousness and they were like oh we have this oh we have this whole other functionality that although we didn't we weren't looking for it it came with the product if that makes it I know is like on a side note but I want to come to to that point that you think on a side now I was just discussing this Monday night on Monday nights with Mufti that the whole Adam Ali Salim story in my understanding was the the cognitive revolution and I felt that maybe the forbidden fruit was actually psychedelic kind of plants or something in line with certain researchers and scientists

who've also evolutionary kind of scientists who've also assumed I mean they've hypothesized that maybe consciousness human consciousness was triggered by consumption of certain psychedelics Oh Terence Mckenna Terence Mckenna is one of them yes and I did actually mention his book on their food of the gods food for the gods or food of the gods but yeah yes I mean that's actually just on a site but coming to what you were saying about consciousness you know because along the ways some wave we're taking it from a scientific perspective some way primates home hominins or not even hot a homo sapien somewhere along

the way has developed consciousness but consciousness would one would argue it's actually perhaps counterproductive in in the long game for revolution you know survival may happen much more like robustly if you don't philosophize over it like because for example to survive one must kill one must do many kind of brutal things in nature or you know creatures lions must hunt other creatures must out completely the creatures if one starts to philosophize

elfred it could the whole thing could could turn into a kind of like a crapstorm I mean every because you know if we start thinking about what we're actually doing so on some level it might be but I think the overall thrust of philosophizing or going inwards and thinking whatever it is I think it's produced like amazing results like like logic rationality these are rules that we used I could master science and all the rest of it and those things have you know them wonders for ourselves but you know how

you've you're saying like the cognitive revolution so maybe the next evolution isn't within ourselves for example the cognitive revolution it didn't make us physically stronger it didn't make us jump higher run faster but it made us think it sharpened our thinking skills so the next revolution if there is one I don't know if there is but if it would be it would probably be even like another level up from the cognitive and it would probably be like I think AI I think actually than if you've seen that it was a Richard Dawkins and Lex Friedman he's a a I guy he had a podcast on YouTube and they

were saying oh he's a rigid audience biologist and he was asking what's the next level or next phase of evolution he does if there is one it's not gonna be you know bigger hands or whatever it's gonna be AI how are we gonna utilize a is probably one it's the level up above our own brain which is how we're gonna use a imaginary brain to get the things done that we want so see I don't know if that is the question this kind of stuff is well beyond me um but it's fascinating to look at ourselves when we're just looking at creation at the

world around us yeah mere survival has been done far longer than our species of bacteria some are exactly so this thing of us fathoming you know like this is Arabic poem which says I'm Tanika chairman severan that you know you claim you this small entity yet wife you canto al alamin like guru yet within you can be fathom the entire cosmos but this fathoming of us being able to conceptually take everything in it's actually not that old if we're thinking of the cognitive

revolution i mean whether it's it's under a hundred thousand years maybe seventy thousand or whatever it is now does that not I mean and it comes back to my question that does this not spark within you that yeah good good hoorah yeah that something is happening you know that these there is something to this that am I not a part of something great something or is this just I'm simply a kind of like another tally a simple statistic I mean I think

both can be true on I don't see any contradiction I am just any other guy I am just any other collection of particles but something happy you are just because in your world like let's say as you interact with somebody I mean you're still very young yet so I mean maybe you don't have children yet one is on the way thank you well your this this connection this bond more with humanity you see

something you somebody's in in distress and you reach out to help or you you do something in that moment do you it would be impossible to claim that we only see ourselves as just simple kind of atoms put together that are just kind of oh I agree say for example if I if I'm in a state of love with my wife or my parents or my child like a newborn Charlie look at this love and this wonder yeah of course I'm feeling those raw emotions as they are like I could be like well this is just a another human being that is born as Earth and there's a especially this kid of course I'm not

gonna say that so I would appreciate and feel those raw emotions what they are but I'm not just simply emotional like there is the so for example love there's the emotion of the hormones and things like this that are being kind of felt within the body that there's the connection which is sometimes difficult to kind of explain like you could for example have a connect with a person that is slightly above words it's not like somebody could ask you what is it that so that you connect so well with this particular what is that feeling and it's diff it's ineffable it's difficult

to place in words oh you could be one could be deeply involved in an intellectual conversation in a dialogue that deep level of intellectual discourse could be providing this ecstatic experience or you could be an artist work or one kind of just witnessing art like you say you know witnessing the horizons doing these that experience of that said that internal sensation that where you find that

wellness yeah is this not just above you know just simple hormones we know I understand that hormones are just running around or atoms or molecules that are there is a spark I kind of sold to these if I can use that word yeah I understand so you must have formed the matrix right I was the first one yeah but that scene that really stuck with me if you know when the guy who's a traitor he rats out on neo and everyone the guy with the that kind of guard though oh yeah and he's speaking to a tinsmith in

that restaurant fancy restaurant and he's like I know this isn't beef but when I eat here it will feel like beef whatever or like a steak whatever it is he's having a steak and then he said he's like that's amazing like even though he knows it's not that he feels it as if it is that so I not 100% there so I know I'm meeting a snake and it's not a fixed fakes stake but I also know that I the human being has evolved in a way where it appreciates and this particular feeling or emotion or this experience whatever it so we're an ecstasy oh god that was the best feeling I had in my life but there's a reason why I'm feeling like

that is because I think the day I'm producing the child if I'm in love with someone from pea bonding but this is so room and this is above anything I can explain but on a biological level I know this is just for me to know this is why I was trying to distinguish or separate it from simple emotions because I I understand from an emotional level there's obviously these hormones these things like this going on this kind of endorphins and all this stuff is being released and neurotransmitters I get that so and and to some extent in its

own way that happens within the animal kingdom you know this emotion unity obviously between the mother and and the offspring and so on and there's that kind of and there is a sense of somewhat empathy and things like this is within the animal kingdom seen within primates and other things and but what I'm so you will see so for example certain animals like when they did experiments on certain monkeys that they when they saw that another monkey was suffering wasn't being given a certain fruit they or a certain food but they were they also kind of rebelled in doing kind of like empathy for the other fellow monkey and

things like this now this is why I was getting at this that experiential side that's fine from from an emotional perspective but then there's the intelligibility of being being able to kind of that the fact that it can be intelligent like we can we can understand we have the capacity to understand something in and of itself does that know is that not quite feeling or telling in whoa okay that we have that capacity

mm-hmm that I agree yeah I agree that is a very profound thing that we have been that have that we have within our political evolution or whatever you want to call it it is a profound thing because I can say most animals do not have it on the same level that we do and most animals don't have it at all you know they don't so it is a profound thing but if we were to almost remove our source from ourselves and look at us as a the same way we would look at a rat in a cage whether it's an experiment or dissect a frog if you were to dissect ourselves you'd probably find that this is these are there's a evolutionary reason or by-product why we have this

thing I mean this is the thing that has propelled us from just a small tribe in the savanna to now dominating every single environment on this planet so yes there is the wonder but there's a practical side as well that has helped us evolve or help us dominate the earth if you were to just put the argument side-by-side because you're right we human beings have dominated the globe they've and not from a kind of a structure perspective I mean as human beings are you know we're just in the middle really as primates we're not so huge and we really from a physic from a

physical perspective now if you were to put this argument side-by-side that you know well sure that you know there's just evolution just chance but you know just creatures just nothing but substance and so on put together and randomly kind of has mutated along in this way but yet they've miraculously what they've arrived at is beyond a miracle I mean what human beings have I know that the nightmares as well but what they've earned that you've got that argument and the other that maybe this is indicative of that know that it is

indicative of some meaning to some story and thereby perhaps reflecting a higher being so I don't know if this will answer your question but this is this is a story that comes to my I was in University and I was living out and I you know you don't do every so I was just waiting for my laundry and this is raining go Muslim and we just got talking and Shaggy exams and this and that and then she said you know what but I'm really happy with my exam because I

was really struggling with it but there will be something with it with the question and Allah helped me cheap exactly Allah helped me chew in the exam [Laughter] so she said Allah helped me cheap because oh I was overlooked in a while was due my exam I looked at someone else's paper and that same question that I was looking at and I could answer the answer was there no one was around me I saw it I wrote it down and I know I got it right so al I hope you cheat and I was like

like wow like normally if I was in a situation I would be like man like I should probably do a stuck far or something whatever I should probably feel bad about myself but her meaning the way she twisted it was like Allah everything was open for me and I took the opportunity therefore Allah must have wanted that you know otherwise why would you allow me to cheat so I think we can insert and our own meaning there are some people who are like human beings other near this whole Crona stuff people are now saying there's some people we are the virus human beings we are the virus right so buchen you can say I would say we're dominating and with and we're thriving

on this planet every one every every situation we've conquered you can live with the North Pole South Pole desert but we we have found a way to solve that situation someone else would like a misanthrope of these extreme people would say we have just destroyed every single environment we've gone into the local population of this dog or cat whatever is suffering the earth the melting so which one is right like who a query like did it okay you did actually her poochy always like this her so again you could we can we are so clever that we can create the meaning and with the only animal that I was

doing this reread this book eight years ago that can consciously consciously lie to herself a chimpanzee cannot lie to it so for example if I know artists that doesn't mean wrong if I stole your money I can be like no then or actually you know what I probably need you need his money more than he does Jacobite to us I can do that a chimpanzee can't do that or another animal can't do that the same way we can so with very complicated things and we could create all sorts of meaning or lack of like a cheap anything is possible but I'm looking into the

kind of from the angle of meaning of meaning like what I'm trying to say is what does that mean a dream within a dream so what is the meaning of the meaning so as an example let's say let's take us an as a poor analogy but as an analogy let's take language the term language with a capital L now we as human beings seem to be kind of wired to and that is the the argument that many psychologists take like Chomsky and

other people that we are wired for language like we our brains seem to be kind of designed that way that we will as we're born we will just absorb language and learn language even if you pull us around it's that they have been obviously I know they've done Studies on feral children and so on but if you've not been exposed to language that's different but if you have even if it's a broken language you will usually the children communities will fix them up so when the study stated on Creole languages and pidgins languages so they

in I think it was Hawaii you're certain of the communities that had a lot of immigrants workers in particular settlement have a common language amongst them so they spoke kind of pigeon where I go this thing and what happened was they spoke that incessantly like that for years and a few decades but the younger generation actually developed a creole a perfectly viable language he's building upon the pigeon so it and that was kind of evidence to show that our brains are kind of wired for these now what I'm saying is if we're taking language as a

capital L that's not a particular language I'm not saying English Japanese Chinese but language with a capital L this seems to be this wiring you know as an analogy in a similar way I'm trying to say meaning so meaning now what this girl saying that look God made me cheat will help me cheer will help sorry God Allah help me cheat yeah this is the equivalent of now somebody just say let's say with in English or any language swearing let's say mm-hmm now there are Swedes in languages this

you know dumb language this sophisticated language there's different languages that can't understand each other but then there is the discussion that wait a minute language exists with a capital L like this within our brains there is something for language now I don't think but language or abusive language let's say is an argument to detract from that wonder of language with a cat yeah it is it doesn't undermine the whole phone yeah I would feel in that sense meaning the for the

capital can verify that we can that that things have meaning to them that's things actually the Intel and this is what like Tillich and other kind of philosophers as well had kind of spoken of in their own way of the intelligibility of being that things can be understood that they have that capacity is almost named a reflection of the divine I don't obviously atheists won't be convincing win that argument otherwise there won't be a theists but but I feel that just what what about you I mean do you not

sometimes feel maybe you're still very young I get that but in life does that not sometimes or maybe in normal life you kind of just get by without I don't know like maybe you do have a substitute where you kind of see it and you don't or because I would think that you know well me this whole thing of meaning and Wow and that's something this must be something you know so I now I can now I understand you're saying much clearer the meaning with a capital M the idea

that everyone on some level is inbuilt with this component where they have meaning whatever that meaning is feeling with freely with religion all I want to whatever yeah yeah and things whether they are people whether they are a concept whether they are whatever have meaning we can understand from them the fact that this seems to exist it shows me that well that there's so much more to so would you apply that same argument to language so would you say like for example wow this language thing exists so it doesn't matter what ethnicity you

are doesn't race you are a five year old can communicate with a 90 year old that must mean is a quarter would you say that so what I would say is language with a capital L does exist within us humans provided we have some access to learning so obviously if you lock up somebody and they never know more yeah so yeah so would you say that in itself is an example or an indicator that there must be record purely to just language with a capital L right I would say that it's a reflection of a that it to me is kind of the ability language has for

expression and the fact that we are built with this I would feel kind of mirrors a divine mirrors the divine yeah it does less for me when you look at language I mean with a capital L it just shows that our evolutionary trajectory has got to the point where now making sounds can transform the world like you know not even and I'm not even exaggerating but literally some guy can stand up on a stage and say this is what we're gonna do and then thousands of people or millions of people will actually do that thing and they understand what this

person is saying it's crazy when you think about a Latino chimpanzee would do that on that level right no line now how strong is cuz you got on that level it's not even a question so it's not easy because language from the the grunts ins and sounds to however are we philologists are still linguists are still quite confused are not sure is a better word uncertain on the exact origin of how languages began but the kind of theories that were the sounds and onomatopoeia and these kind of things were associated with words that is one thing saying cup vessel whatever

last two concept the world of concepts now this is why when when you said do you see the divine in language I do because concepts are a world in themselves you see from cup container to collect let's say as an example collectivism the whole entire concept now this I know like in the Quran well Lama Adam al ass man that he and he taught Adam the concepts know things now

this human beings the realm of concepts was one of infinite exponential kind of burst for human being what he went from like you know stone rock this to settlements civilization relationships possession let's have no abstract stuff like Maddie let's trade Bitcoin and everything it's a world that I that far surpasses us yeah yeah like think about it the very notion of God lies within that world

yes sense yes you had discourse dialogue everything lies with that world is in many ways incredibly much more vast than our world our physical world I saw I do see in that and you know like in the versus r-rahman about Halle Colin son that he created in San a llama whole beyond that he taught him expression that in that what was captured is this is that is a kind of a mirroring of the

divine in language so I do I am overwhelmed and well by our capacity for language and so why would say and this is this is why I'm probably an atheist is you see as mirroring ICS projection from the human outward as opposed to a marriage from the God to us at that make sense so I think we have got this point of software realization where we think wow must have been great but something bigger than us because I can't find them how it's done I don't know why I'm here or how I'm here something bigger than me

more intelligent than me who is beyond living or dying or breathing or sleeping muscles on this that's the only that's one way where you're you see that more so the angle but I would feel that people actually don't go that way but maybe some people do but I would feel that that is the angle of a kind of if I can use this term like almost the angle or perspective of impotence like we that you know I am not capable of doing something like a lack of potency here that we don't have power we don't have I couldn't make this world

and universe and I couldn't do this so there must have been something so intelligent that did it yeah I I personally don't relate to that because I see that a lot of the time like even very good coin is that for example right when I like every day I hear this oh you know you should ask for forgiveness look alive he wants to coronavirus he can take you out like that if you want if you you think you have plans Allah has plans I'm not gonna tell you thank you you know all the typical whatever you can to flip your plans upside down and you think you do this and Allah can do whatever he so I'm like well that is a kind of impotence because

you're saying that at the end of the day if you won't do something but Allah does of one that wanted to happen I must think you believe this but if I just wanted to happen that he can just walk that's it good for your Koon or whatever is he can just change you or whatever if he wants to help someone you help them be I actually find on a daily basis especially within his time sense I'm sure the same as Christian circles as well that it's like oh man be suck Allah man if Allah if Allah wants to help us you can help us I can't do anything bro without lost permission you got your plans coronavirus comes you think this and Allah does this I find that more in the common daily lives of Muslims Christians whoever that you know we we

surrender to God man we can't do jack we can't do jack bro because within a huge amount of it within religious circles or religious people mmm just coming to that point you see what I actually feel this is me personally I think this is actually many people that do you know that do go with this when I was saying oh but when you look out there do you not feel there's a god and one perspective like you mentioned is well because we're so you you know we're so tiny and incapable yeah there must be something so overwhelming and strong

healthy the other thing that I relate to is that it's actually one of value a perspective of values that and of meaning not of power like even though the power would also be true like I would think obviously God is more powerful than me but what it would be is that do I feel that everything like my whole existence and I don't just mean my existence as but I mean it from a meaning perspective not from a you know counting me as a citizen or whatever stuff like that do I feel that this has

no meaning to it as a concept do I feel that this is nothing like as in and is there no value I place and I don't just mean value as in yeah I enjoy it I like it but so from a value perspective they feel that yeah this is what I'm saying that you know if these things exist if this if meaning is found if if love is felt if concepts are understood and grasped surely there is something out there truly there if there is a God like

is from that angle of value and meaning that we you know if we are here then surely there must be something as opposed to from the angle of well I couldn't make this world so there must be something bigger than me that maybe Isis yeah yeah so I mean that is a I was a slightly different and more advanced version but it kind of again you can correct me if I'm wrong but I kind of feel they they emanate from the same place which is we we now wake up in this world and think wow this is amazing like this is like language concept love

experience meaning itself meaning of meaning all these things that we are now discovering or we realize there's something beyond this realm and someone has created it or whatever willed into existence whatever word or to tell whatever I'd you know I when you make that assertion you get more questions and answers but what's the ability to question is an indicator in itself like is this not the

ability we need those mushrooms even then like you earlier saying that you know actually philosophizing too much can I go this sort of it can lead to paralysis like but then but then what happened but then I think if you go down that route it would that's why on a practical level I don't graph with me every day because no one could like has the mind capacity to do that every single day and this industry sitting in the room just like

thinking oh my god what's going on and then you go deeper and deeper yes I guess I've done but if we are gonna go on this meaning with a capital M like the for me it's a massive question mark I don't know and I think that in itself that it's a huge question mark is probably more mysterious and I don't know intellectually more stimulating than simply saying God grant or Bible Mohammed's years like that for me is more of a wonder like what the hell man as opposed to oh oh by the way guys it's all written in his book sure okay that's a different discussion but I want to just it's kind of Zone in on what you

said there that this you know this wonder in and of itself this in quench Obul thirst to question to wonder does this not like does this not show something like when we so for example like let's say I'm thirsty first the end the phenomenon of thirst reflect that there must be something that can quench it hmm the hunger reflects that there must be something that can kind of satiated yeah wonder this kind of this

abyss this never-ending abyss or that humans have of wonder of question marks like we our endless thirst it reflects that they must be answers so let me give you a scenario ask University for questions you believe in evolution I'm assuming okay so do you think from an evolutionary perspective let's say we got two tribes or even let's say we got one tribe whatever but one tribe in a jungle two guys mean you you have this in this test of what is behind that other tree what is beyond that other mountain

I'm like bro don't go there man it's too dangerous too risky like just stay here where you are it's so good don't don't rock the boat but you are that guy who is that you know what I'm taking that risk I'm going beyond the next mountain and you discover a whole new land resources whatever so I'm sure there'd be people who didn't make it back or who died but it was we're gonna call it there was enough reward in you as an individual or human being taken that risk of asking but what is beyond that thing and I think this whole why why where how who

is a bi-product or remnant of that same thing that the driving force that said why can't we go beyond the savanna why can't we go beyond that mountain why what's under that rock what's under this see what happens if I mix these two things together oh I get high how is that gonna feel curiosity at that level that you're stating is found in a wide array of because if you mix that curiosity with consciousness yeah then the mother must calendar that's all I can say

again I know I'm saying it in a very simplistic dumbed down way and I can't level but the only way I can understand I'm always trying to bring it back to evolution if this is the very mechanism that has created us if you were to always rewind time and think well the first humans that did were more curious than the humans that weren't they probably survived more and achieve more than the ones that were we could see this even on civilizational level some civilizations civilizations who invented certain things Europe they had this whole idea of credit all their piracy and colonialism in the beginning was based upon credit on take on taking a risk on

this like we we have no tangible thing to give you right now but we can take a risk other many or everyone else didn't do that like this crazy why would you take a risk on credit and gonna go around the world and bring gold they did it it worked for them so some people who do certain things I forgot they talked about wolves how a wolf became a dog yeah I will explain it but certain wolves that were more willing to go closer to certain risks risk like these kind of stray dogs right so we listen the thing is and we were talking about this beforehand I don't issue I'll just throw it in there don't know if you want to talk about it or not but you know how you say like wherever like that one guy

three who said well I'm just gonna publish it or I'm just gonna mention him by name whatever it is little did he know that this thing would happen down the line so this what did that you were being no that me going beyond that mountain could put like the gene that I have that is saying but why but how but who these guys are constantly I could probably bet he's probably really annoying in the tribe of crashing stop stop going on over there mounting eat from him we are descended no I didn't either you didn't know what I was never thought not only I would have thought I I do

feel that even many evolutionary kind of psychologists would agree I mean I'm sure there are counter arguments as well I'm sure but that consciousness for for for survival because obviously when you look at the array of creatures that exist and that a far surpassed our existence in terms of numbers or even humans like it hominins like if we're looking at Homo erectus for over a million years this is where life where you don't know yeah yeah without this kind of consciousness that we have that consciousness in many ways is actually

seems like a hurdle even though it's produced or some incredible I mean it's given us what we have today but from a sheer survival angle it seems to be something which hmm survival one it doesn't seem to need it to survive as creatures have survived two creatures could probably do and execute what they do with much more efficiency which is based on instincts then unconsciousness because the second

part like do you really think like if you look at the way consciousness like the fact that we can feel empathy on a level we can feel empathy on even abstract levels we can create like I can say like Oh like for example a The Lion King story these guys are not even reliance watching you cry well why can't but we can equally do things like genocide which creatures don't have never know and we can set up concentration camps yeah like it is true that we can do certain things as human beings but from a survival perspective consciousness really plays no

significant role in survival and if anything you would assume that for a creature to be survive efficiently if it was doing it as an automaton it would probably do a better job of it because it wouldn't stop to question what it's doing it would just do it like the lion would just hunt it wouldn't question itself about its hunting whereas it would question ourselves so I think the proof is in the pudding the fact that our population has grown significantly I mean at the end of the day if we want to break it down to sort of bear numbers our we are surviving more than we are

survived before in the history of humanity or any other hominid I would assume and I think consciousness it allows us to to get stuff done at a much higher level whether it's destructively or productivity so for genocide or the idea that oh my god if someone watches a movie and we can translate a different language and they all want stand all through love and empathy at the same time oh my god it's amazing all that kind of stuff oh why would someone create a vaccine just just just for human beings aren't even alive yet but they're gonna benefit from that that's a crazy thing if you think about it right why would you point like he's crazy he's crazy it's amazing at the same time it's

true so so III think that you know when you like if you were to like backtrack like I said if you were to rewind our evolution we probably took a turn somewhere and we're now like 100 miles down the road and then now what we're saying is but why did we take that turn why was it necessary but we weren't even so if if you if scientists now discover actually we took a turn for this reason that's why we ended up with consciousness people probably answer that but we're left for this thing or why do we even have this like well we can eat we can drink we can run around why do we need to question ourselves probably somewhere our history we needed to or that ability was required which obviously I can't

explain whatever it is but we took a turn and now we're left with this thing I mean we're trying to figure out by going backwards and saying oh why did I do that that's amazing just another interesting point from attune taking away from consciousness yeah yeah into lived religion I'm just intrigued this is just a curious thing you see since you mentioned a bit earlier on about so we're going away from the you know from up the the macro level into a kind of micro level of your religion you said

look you're soon to you know have a family expecting a child and shall are many amazing blessed years to come I'm curious would you feel that the absence of religion the absence of tradition in a kind of like a family future that you have is a it's a kind of a huge gap a tiny gap no gap a huge gap would you would you feel this this is a question which

really does depend you know I think her family because some families even with religion are highly dysfunctional and some without so it's really I don't want to make a blanket statement say of course so I think it all depends on your I can read about tradition or rules I think those things are very important whether you are a child or an adult there are certain rules even a relation like rules are fine like I guess you could kind of come up with from society from code you know what's around you but then there are sometimes tradition so I've noticed that even sit and even

certain prominent the prominent atheists have discussed these I remember some Harris was discussing it as well on one of his kind of lectures that look now that atheism has kind of got a foothold you know it's gone on for think this seems to be now this kind of need for tradition or ritual or they were even saying that you know some atheists were saying that well you know we don't have

anything like Sunday going to church or we don't have any annual kind of like holy days or any kind of thing and we're noticing that this is like and and whether it's small but it's a significant missing piece you know a unit in our lives and they're kind of struggling with some of that I don't know if that thought has ever crossed your mind Oh hundred percent a hundred percent out there the day this and people of religion have a certain narrative where they where they know where they fit right right forget about right or wrong they have a narrative

that and religions in general and at is how we were how we've evolved I'm guessing you've read the book by sapiens I love the rock yes that's amazing I have not read the second one yep I've read the first one so I mean in that book that he mentioned it clearly like do these things where there is that they provide us with a meaning or direction or some sort of narrative or we know our place in society and it helps us function this sort of social lubricant on a macro on a micro level but both levels and it is like whoa f they surface everything everything is rubbish and I would okay whanau are so

so yeah there is that this as a human being like I said to before as a human being but whether it's a sense of community or a sense of meaning or a sense they will always always be that need regardless of our atheist you are so for example right now as it stands I would still go to eat the prayers with my father because it makes him happy made mom happy and whatever you know even bark hugging hugging you meet some old friends whatever it is and it's not

exactly you know it's interesting I was once chatting to someone I mean they actually contacted me for an Islamic question this girl she was going through some issues and she said well look what it is she was an atheist Muslim hmm so she contacted me and said look oh I don't know what the shoot okay just to be clear I don't want to misrepresent I think she was an agnostic like I said she was kind of exposed to burn off certain about being an ex-muslim she wasn't so certain of Islam anymore she was like his lungs full of all this nonsense made him stuff and all this

kind of stuff so I said well okay how can I help you and so she said well what it is is that she wants to she's got a boyfriend she wants to settle with the boyfriend the family are obviously totally pissed that's how you can imagine so she was like she's got she's got pregnant I think there was that in the equation and she wants to kind of settle down with this boyfriend but the mother would only let her settle if she does a nikka so I said so okay so what's the problem so she said well I'm gonna do in the car

I said well why she said well I think this whole thing is kind of BS yeah so I said well okay but but I was really intrigued because that conversation didn't really get very far because I just you know I said well I don't really know like because I said look your beliefs are entirely your beliefs and faith is a journey you understand like people you know I and I agree with you know how you said a moment ago about certain people religion what it offers in terms of beyond community the conviction and I remember this this is episode in I don't know if you've watched Dexter have you watched textile watch do you

know most years ago but there was this episode we he's there's this man off of God this Christian I think a priest or something in his battling secured him and he's so like you know he goes he starts reciting his stuff and and he's so kind of firm about okay go and do it and he's and in Dexter mentions he says you know as I have to admit I envy you you know your conviction it's like it's an enviable thing yeah but I mean coming to this point I said to her look your conviction is it's a lifelong journey but why don't you go along with the nikah like why don't you just do it like you you know you're born and raised

Muslim you it would make your family happy and she's like no out of principle I will never do it so but I just didn't get I didn't get I mean I got the fact that you you know you're questioning faith and stuff like this but I didn't get the fact that because in that sense I'm just saying if if nothing truly carries meaning and everything is fake then isn't because her point was I'm gonna be a hypocrite this is an hypocrisy in itself and principles equally meaningless like what is the point if you'll make your family happy why do you just go along and just do it like if it's gonna make your mother happy and you can you know and to you it

carries no meaning anyway so what like what's the big deal but to her it was like no I'll never do it so I was quite surprised when you said look I I will go to pray family you know eat with the family apart from the community you will so you know makes my dad happy and things like mmm that's it I mean me going to Eid prayer twice a year is nowhere near the same level of commitment because I firstly they know I'm ex Muslim secondly with the girl I'm assuming if they face in the car then I think I don't know how to Jewish if she's come out as Muslim to them or not or whatever I don't know

assuming she had from what I've recalled in her conversation it wasn't that she said clearly but she said well I just don't really believe much of that stuff anymore to me it's kind of BS and I don't want to be a country by pretending to go with it but I said for the sake of the nation like I don't know what you first of all I don't know what you want me to say because I don't know what interesting point but why does she wish to have research in the first place if she wasn't interested in getting cars as a resident that's a question mark but secondly if she does get in the car then what it would entail practically speaking after that is it more than this

then the son or daughter who's Muslim he be raised Muslim and she's like what if I do in a garden it's not just simply you know Kabul Kabul it's everything else that comes after us it's probably much more practically speaking that she would have to commit to than simply just doing a ceremony if it were simply a ceremony then I'd like I would do ceremony I'd already care about me but to be honest most Muslims probably live their lives with just simple kind of dashes of tradition I don't know what you know like there is really what's really involved in you know like like you saying the Muslim lifestyle like I

suppose maybe a child's name but even nowadays most Muslims have kind of like anglicized names like Adam what I mean my mother has been asking ISA why are you gonna quit on John Matthew I'm like since when I want since I left Islam I've been dying to call my son John Matthew or whatever I've named him Gregory Gregory yes yes I mean you know like sort of name's I wouldn't call him John or Matthew no offense for any Johnny

Matthews whatever it is but I think for her it's all about the level of investment or commitment that she probably sees down the line that she would have to commit to if she does in a car and and the guy becomes a Muslim and then it's a whole buying and then it's like odd now I don't even like this in the first place but for me to get out of now the new situation I'm in would probably be more personal because this was my point that look you're already pregnant admit she probably is not the best decision maker if he got pregnant outside of marriage

no offense I mean it's just another calf of trying to stamp him but while on humanity religion made no sense no now it does we with the whip okay so this is why I was curious that I wonder how tradition in your life and especially in you see sometimes it's different when

you're kind of just young and free-floating as a young man and chillin and then I suppose when you've got children and a bit older and and you're kind of thinking well hmm okay like sometimes you feel that certain tradition certain narratives like you mentioned so it's an a sense of belonging to a community that these things are important maybe for them like sometimes you're less worried about you and so what I would answer this question and this is how I think my father lost their husbands why say he said that

religion has had like thousands of years more time to develop their narrative than 80s have so they have a huge head start like it just like what realistically speaking I thought 15 years hundred years but truly as Matt whatever is displayed with a comparison so we have not got that sort of practice time experimental time to even me yes

I'm what he was saying like I say we but actually atheist don't agree because there is a central doctrine or book or prophet or whatever you wanna call it there isn't but nevertheless even as a collective loosely speaking we haven't had that time to develop or really think about it but what won this before at the beginning we create our own meaning and we do and we I don't see why we can't as a family as a community through news that word I wouldn't use examine libertarians I'm all for the individual but I me as a as a family as a husband and as a sort of partnership with my wife I don't see why we can't create our own thing I remember obviously my wife

she's part English so I would go to her side the family for Christmas and they would make a big deal he's half English half Egyptian okay so his mother was English father was Egyptian and I would go to this I the family and Christmas was a big deal for them even though they're Muslims because of their mother's influence Christmas possibly dude they won't do like obviously everything halal but they will play games they would do this and I would be thinking but kill Muslim why are you doing this I Christie Brioni and that's it like why this such a big deal and I

was like what in their family these rituals this even though there's not know most Christian the all Muslim it's still a big deal and the family come and they enjoy their tradition over Christmas now there's nothing Christian about that in fact they're all Muslims and even as an expose as to what they're and it was still a thing so I'm like wow that's a good thing there's nothing wrong with the family gathering at Christmas or E or any other occasion and eating and chili now and whatever sharing stories so if there's something that's working I will just continue that that if you were now if it has a religious background or connotation per speaking I don't really care I mean for

example I mean if you want to talk about like slum-like the Kaaba was there before if when they were pagans but they still could there are certain things that were pagan but now you've Islamic eyes and I would say even as a Muslim I was aware of that I thought what's wrong with that you've taken that was quote-unquote negative made it positive what you've added a new flavor to it something so I don't see any issues with atheists gathering it for Christmas and dressing for Santa Claus or whatever it is we're

singing hymns even whoever is and thing is the religious ones the British songs I found even more impactful other one the the Sabri brothers one man the year now it's a the one with Bilal and I love his name you know this other one this

other worry sir sorry brother is a famous one it's a complete you see the the the language of religion this is what I think it was reza aslan who were saying this ages ago I heard him say and it made sense it has so much currency because it's so much it's so packed and full of meaning so if I say Ali just is just the word Ali if I say Hussein you there's an image that comes with Ali hood and Hussein that personifies a certain concept I do of struggle of

martyrdom of perseverance of ability and it means something so I don't have to like it often like but it means something like you connect with that on that point there's something that I love to get your kind of find out how you kind of encourage that is as an individual let's say me and people in general I'm assuming everyone or most people you don't certain times times of distress the more challenging time the voice within kind of crazy mmm

so I will you know like like everyone I've been through sometimes you know some difficult times in life there have been some challenging times and I will kind of think that look in addition to doing stuff it's not I'm never been a person like oh I wouldn't trying everything I could do I would always try to do but I would cry out that you know like but yeah la that you know like make this happen for me this kind of like or just help me in this one please you know if like it um hope will the

wrong I have to get this done this kind of inner dialogue this internal dialogue with the divine do you I used to feel it a lot when I was a Muslim but then when I realize or what I came to blind exactly I would say for example I'm sure you I'm sure you're familiar with the

philosophy of the Stoics whatever is in your control you do if it's outside of your control yeah in addition to that this is gonna sound highly irrational and it probably is and like I said just a that was a be anything about me is rational ever but I remember when I was a kid you know these are toys these are beyblades they were spinning tops there

was like this whole cartoon show about the many ways that so I lost mine and I got it for Eid right I've got this beyblade for Eve what's it called beyblade it's like this talk you sort of spin it whatever and I was the most sincere in crying out to the universe where is this thing where I was looking at and also he took me like two weeks to find it but I left it somewhere where I anyway I'm like well that didn't work I know so I know it's stupid I know irrational I thought if like I was I'm like 11 years old I got this for Eid I really wanted this thing and I lost it I couldn't find it that's like just God

please if anything can just where is it and this and that and I don't know it's like it's where we left it there was nothing miraculous there was nothing outside of the ordinary and I only found it because I went back to the same place that my family took me there for a different reason whatever I'm like yes like forget me and my toy there are people in the world who are dying of hunger starvation where is their answer and he was all but they like okay well that's not really here because one is prayers are being answered or getting what you wish for like one is some one is the concept of wishes with like let's say for taking as capital to help you the wishes that exists out there and

people don't get what they wish for and and I didn't I was more coming from the angle of a crime of not even even an internal kind of dialogue that at times a person often resonating maybe at a time of crisis or a time of even if it's momentary but a person kind of thinks they kind of they have this oh please oh you know I'm trying to do you feel I would say do you have that dialogue with

ROM that's the same way I don't have you within love okay you don't have myself yeah but not being like something above all there's plenty of dams it's not directed to anyone other than myself I'll be like you know because that is an incredible incredibly powerful

I mean I've experienced it back I've experienced that it was a very real experience when it happened it's not like a fake or not real yeah of course it is real when you think it's like a deeply powerful source for Stretton it is I agree you know when they feel that you know and they even though they take the you know like you mentioned like you do whatever you can like being stoic but people when they feel that they you know like oh please help me or you know I'm praying to God

or I'm asking God I'm gonna act they I mean powers they like yes yeah it brings it like a sense of calm or reassurance like you know what it's gonna be fine whatever happens it's gonna be I hear every when I was in university I even though I was like I don't I I didn't believe in prayer like you know for couples whole you get it you don't get it and why even though I didn't believe in that arm but I was University and we were in the prayer room and I was really just like I just couldn't be bothered I was really struggling with the exam whatever it was and one of the more

religious uncles whatever it was we had the prayer then we just stood to at the bar and at the end of the end of the war he just said don't worry about your exams whatever was gonna happen was written before the creation of this planet of the universe whatever was gonna happen is written before the universe yeah yeah and I was like okay that put me at ease even though I knew I didn't believe it even though but I was like that's it just call me cuz I'm like what's gonna happen is gonna happen it's fine and so I do understand that and you could look at it from a atheist perspective like the Big Bang every single particle with

you know the whole did determinist model whatever is written whether it's God written it or no one absolutely it was Richard so it kind of like obviously I was or more I wasn't a Muslim so I was like what it was gonna happen it's gonna happen Allah is gonna so I was I actually just bought some PSICOM so III do get it these floors like I said I've tracked thing just chemicals in our brain are very very powerful and they can literally change the physiology and our our own literal behavior so yeah I mean religion like I'm saying is a very advanced way of capitalizing on certain words thoughts feelings tones

themes like I said what I said early you think of something and it has a particular theme if I say Noah it has a particular story behind it so me so that guy is saying whatever is gonna happen was written thousands or before whatever I would it just calmed me but and I didn't I can't explain to you why it did but I did I was very intrigued yeah I mean it's it's been awesome I mean we've I know you're not a vampire and I think you probably work but it's been awesome and for sharing your thoughts having

this dialogue discussion and I know just just very briefly I know people kind of there were many kind of comments and questions if there's anything very pressing you can maybe just raise it but I just want to respond to some people that had asked that oh you know about this dialogue or am i trying to convert video vids am I trying to do this that was never the objective I mean my objective is never and that's never been any of mine or or of be David's already but any other guest an objective of this show or ever generally in life hmm

and what we were simply trying to do is be able to have a civil very kind of friendly transparent honest conversation as we would even if the cameras off this was gonna be the same yes so and but be able to have it in a way where people can hopefully benefit from that and to also bring about a a conversationalist who can articulate the experiences of somebody who's now been a Muslim and left Islam and how do you see on that

side and to kind of hopefully insha'Allah promote tolerance towards this kind of thing I know that unfortunately there is this attitude of some people had mentioned much earlier on about apostasy in the comments and and to be very clear that look Islam in my understanding there is no punishment for apostasy obviously as a Muslim I would advocate for Islam I would advocate that people be Muslim but the truth is I would never neither does my reading of Islam suggest or show that oh there's any kind of force of compulsion

or any punishment as a deterrent and I've got a detailed video explaining that people are free to choose what they will and what is faith really if not chosen you know otherwise it's just blind tradition that's all it is it is very very that meaning for you if you're forcing somebody to be it what good is it you know like exactly and so if I could just also come you take any any questions as long as you're okay with time yeah sure yeah one thing I was

saying that is that with I met Mufti when I was it last year or what it was now I met you then and you know how for example when you when you had your meeting with Sheikh assir arm that was the pre meeting that wasn't even the day as that free like there wasn't a pre-meeting when I met yourself there wasn't like okay but what are we gonna discuss what other rules what are the term how much minutes it was just simply come with our chat simple when i met sheikh Shabbir early I turned on the doorstep of where he was saying he didn't know I was an explicit iam I told him down there he said that's fine you can ask me any questions what no

conditions no there's no I hope stuff Allah why you none of that same with Jamal by the way same with Sheikh Arabic same with dr. ossama hassanein so there are these people there was no preconditions no hassle know why you're doing this no judgmental nonsense a Sheikh Osama and a Trebek in my house they would talk to my parents not once did they say why is your son non-muslim why is your son days why is your son tan don't you run not once did these people ever make me feel bad about my decision not wants to try and convert me or anything like that there was nothing ill intention It was as if they were my uncle's right that's how I see these people as if they're my literal uncles

and I'm not saying this exaggeration but I I just felt like I was at home with these people same with yourself our father comes home so like I don't see every purpose of every conversation to convert each 80s mother I'm returning you my respect I've said so many times in my limited understanding I could be completely and utterly wrong in fact I most certainly am because I the Who am I at the end of the day but I'm just sharing you with my journey and the move to using this I never fought like our man up and have a conversation with you I have to be prepared like I never fought like that I'm talking to my friend I've troubled to a an older brother if that makes sense it was never this oh my god man I was gonna be like a trap he's gonna mind trap me he's gonna

say you know you have to screen whatever so people who have this kind of way of thinking man you just gotta listen we're all human beings my boy I hate my older brother he's like my like he could be my ChaCha wherever you say it makes no difference it's true Horace on the way

back man some of our jokes even joking it came as a natural reaction [Laughter] [Music] our love for you search my mom man honestly like a Hummer