Ibn Araby & The Path of Divine Love | Shaykh/Dr Hammad Ali | MindTrap #74

I'll just allow the live stream to just fire up and just straighten up the mic right alhamdulillah wow

great to see the regular mashallah beautiful faces yeah Allah bless you all yeah well we're back with this episode of mind trp and what I want to do today is take you on a

journey to the dimension and the realization of this legendary personality somebody we've spoken abundantly about uh on my channel of late I've had a whole Islamic psychology series re um framing some of the terminology of M in light of modern day psychoanalysis and psychology

right tonight's guest somebody who can really help uh inshallah shed some light on this this Legend of a personality who I feel is so relevant for our day and age and equally I feel he's so misunderstood and that is uh M now tonight Ton's guest she Dr say hammad Ali from Canada Alberta somebody we've had on M trap

previously uh on two episodes discussing spirituality uh [Music] mysticism amongst other topics as well so I present to you Dr Ham aliam alikum Mi AB andam alikum to everyone who is listening um thank you for having me on this show um it's you know we've been having a lot of

interesting discussions before and uh it's been great and hopefully in this session we can discuss a bit more about I Arabi and also like you have clearly indicated in a very concise way that his relevance especially for contemporary Muslims and uh also at the same time the misconceptions regarding him that we can perhaps speak about insh in today's discussion so thank you for having me yeah and Sher before just jumping into this really what I think is such a necessary topic a bit of your journey just very

briefly now you're somebody we've spoken previously about about your PhD and um and that pathway but not uh not spoken much of your journey through the Islamic Sciences sh shed some light on that for us briefly just for the viewers your journey and then and then we'll connect that to this uh spiritual path in um so m in terms of my training in Islamic tradition um after doing my high school from Canada I went with my family back to Pakistan in Karachi and actually I got admitted to a Medical College I was

pursuing Medical College Kar in Karachi uh bakai Medical College I was in my second year but I always wanted to study Islamic you know Sciences so I dropped out of Medical College and I went into a madrasa uh when I was studying and in madrasa I actually spent four years when I later realized that perhaps another way I can obtain more knowledges studying oneon-one as in the past people would do so in this way I was fortunate to study Arabic specifically and Hadi Sciences with different so for example when it came to Hadith Sciences um I was fortunate to

get from Dr ABD Shah Nani who is the son of the well-known madis from Karachi who passed away in 1999 and his name was ABD Rashid Nani he wrote the book or was translated as ma he is the he's was he's the elder brother of another great scholar Dr Abdul chish who passed away so I studied with him Hadi I was able to study f with even for some time I spend time with mu Zar Khan as well I think oh teach you with mu zali

yes personality and he just like couple of during Co he had passed away may Allah have mercy on him I mean so i studi n with him for example that the first year book I was fortunate to get that but then I realized that you know um well you know at the same time I wanted to pursue other know fields of knowledge so then alhamdulillah God gave me the opportunity to do an MB and M from Pakistan so that was so this type of knowledge that I'm talking about the madasa knowledge is specifically in the Sunni world is very much uh it's the transmitted knowledge and the transmitted knowledge is something which is important for the perspective

of outward aspects of Islam the EXO exoteric aspects of Islam but then I also wanted to study uh you know in terms of the intellectual tradition so when I returned back to Canada I was able to P I was forun to pursue my studies in social sciences but also study uh this trans this intellectual tradition and I was foring study with Dr Atif KH who is a student of Dr William shik so in this way then I got introduced to the m sadra and this whole knowledge which is also important component and the reason I say that is Islam is

focused both on the zahi and the batini aspect of an individual after all God is a z and if we believe that you know the believer that is the believer in this sense we have the Hadith the believer is the mirror of the believer we know one of the Divine names of Allah that is mentioned in the Quran is al- so God is both so the Islamic law or the Islamic understanding is for both the outward aspects of the human being and that comes from the transmitted knowledge like f but then you also have the intellectual tradition which is aimed for an inward Journey so by the grace of God I was able to acquire both sets or

different types of knowledge the transmitted and the intellectual intellectual tradition and and and you studied with the student of Dr Chik it's Dr Arif did you say Dr KH who is a Prof who is a professor at University of Leb in my doctoral course I took actually took a course of Islamic philosophy with him and over the last seven years I have extensively you know have this a very close friendship with him and he has been a beacon in my life in the sense he has taught me what this other aspect of reality is which unfortunately is is is something that perhaps we need more in

the Muslim Community sharan for that well yeah I mean Dr chitic was uh unquestionably one of the most leading authorities on um you know Oni of the last century yeah I mean un questionably and especially within the English language I mean yes so for the English speaking world you have and his legendary book really uh is an introduction to um to anybody wanting to uh reconnect with

uh oh connect sorry not reconnect but connect with the mistake or the spiritual tradition of uh he is probably the best translator in terms of his approach is to take the text translate as it is and just give a summary of that so his book Sufi Path of Knowledge is an amazing work and and once you know because we need to recognize that when we look at the Quran for example if the word of the Quran which is the it is the word of Allah right so it has how Arabi sees that the word the letter itself has the meaning the letter is the truth it is the bear of the truth it is the

meaning so that is why it is so important to have this type of both understanding of the exoteric dimension of Islam but also the esoteric dimension of Islam yeah you know somebody uh asked a question here that look which so just to clarify there are two legends of Islam both by the name of I Arabi who emerge from Muslim Spain uh the one we're speaking about so you've got who is the Maliki uh dawn of and Hadith who has the famous legendary

commentary on amongst his of the Quran very famous usually pronounced with the alif lam in so alaki now the other a generation after him uh or two after him because he is a um he is a student of the student ofi so he his name alsoi pronounced without the Alam often referred to as M okay his his name is Muhammad both of them their name is Muhammad actually so

Muhammad is the other he's Muhammad as well um so yeah both are from Spain although Abu Bakr is from sevil and um m is from meria and then they both actually traveled eastwards as well so they both have a huge overlap except in their Traditions they are you know they what Legends of different domains but yeah we are speaking about the great um you know the the spiritual Mystic and Sufi of Islam M he was also

known and the one we talking about is known also as a albar Akbar yeah that is a good uh point to mention that he is often referred to as a the greatest and people the whole tradition often associated with him um is referred to especially in the academic circles as the akarian kind of tradition so just in case you come across that term I'm not saying you need to use it but in case you come across it not to associate it with you know King Akbar for example uh because I have seen actually people

sometimes uh confuse that like the akbarian and they've thought oh this is referring to you know jalaludin Akbar from mugal India no it's referring to and here I'd just like to you know put a caveat and and then maybe we can come back to this point about um him being you know controversial or misunderstood you know in Islam look it is true that when we sayb it is to people who appreciate the path and that he has kind of Trail

placed for them that we feel whoo that this what a legend otherwise sure you know it is true that in Islam there is no one person that is the entire she of the whole of Islam you know we don't there I know this is an interesting discussion because it's often um you know you could jux pose diametrically two personalities both of whom are given such accolades uh on the other side referred to as Islam now in all honesty that there

isn't you couldn't say anybody is Islam in that sense because no one person comprehends the entire you know to be what I mean by comprehend as in to be a legend in every aspect of Islam but what we mean is to a certain people he may be that so let's say I Tamia is unquestionably you know one of the most leading Scholars of the H maab and of the H so to the Han you know it's very uh let's say

deserving that they give him this title Islam because to them he is Islam because Islam of the M of you know the now to other people as well that maybe may not be hum in might be so they have this great reverence for um so this and just opposed to that you've got both of whom are highly controversial figures both of whom some people have kind of given such you know um praise to and considered of the

highest degree and that simultaneously both have have been considered you know by people you know you've had done of and you've had done of um but you know this is not about hate and it should never be about that because really if anything if we can learn anything from our Dean it is that this is a a way of life of love and light that and that the sign of the

Believers that they one of their signs is that and in fact that's something highlights that that those who have faith are the most intense in their love so I just wanted to kind of put that out there as a just to kind of highlight that look you do get a lot of uh you'll get titles and epithets and you know and this is for people who Revere um the path and the the teachings of this person if I may add to that just one aspect what is one interesting is that

um in terms ofi and of course like you have clearly mentioned bylam he was a great scholar of and you know and in fact like the wrote a book regarding saviors of Islam and he considered him as like a mu and many have considered him interesting with regards to about right but in regards yeah but with regards toi one interesting thing that a lot of Scholars have indicated is that at least in the premodern Muslim World there was a very significant influence of the abaran thought yeah and that is something that perhaps other Scholars may not have been

able to have as much at least at that time and The Works he has written combines a lot of aspects from different Islamic tradition that includes Islamic philosophy that includes Islamic mysticism that includes numeric studies that includes Hadi and so that is one thing that is very interesting to observe with regards toi is that his work compresses it seems all the different aspects of Islamic tradition that was present at his time and that is something that is is to taken into consideration you know some people feel that it seems that at that

time of the premodern world a lot of work was like a commentary with regards to his work I'll give an example his work he had it has 100 commentaries at least 100 commentaries have been written so this is something again but I really like what you said that at the end of the day we need to recognize you know it's like all these fukah and all these great Scholars they're like a you know you're going to an you're listening to a music musical show and you have all these instruments right and different people are playing different instruments and from that AB beautiful sound is coming so all the syy exactly and and it is truly a symphony yes of Islam that we

have you know it's not a single instrument I know the metaphor may be counterintuitive and somewhat ironic for people who consider music Haram but truly I mean that's a difference of opinion within Islam as well but the but it is a beautiful metaphor nonetheless that there is a symphony of Islam you know and it is all of these thoughts that are echoed that are you that are professed and expressed uh before us so yeah and if we are to look at people who are

undeniable sources of influence whether we like them or not for example if we were momentarily to suspend our personal sub Ive preferences now we could like and look through Islamic history on who are figures that have have shaped you know whether once again completely devoid of our preferences whether we like them or not who have shaped the course and trajectory of Islam as it exists and is extent today and manifest in the world now you will get right from the

beginning great names Imam you know IM Abu hanifah IM sha IM Malik and you'll start getting names as you come through you know uh Imam Ahmed you'll have uh the AA school names abass alari will have many names who have influenced Islam just as you mentioned I Tamia now I T um although I I would feel that he maybe in his time and the generations after him was not so much I would not feel he was as influential as he has become in these recent Generations but

today it is undeniable whether you know people agree or disagree that he has shaped his thoughts have shaped the face of Islam on the globe today you know we cannot deny that I mean the the whole recent you know last 100 years has become a household name on how he's influenced regardless of people's preferences you know regardless of what how they uh see him similarly shei is a name that has

shaped the face of Islam as it is practiced today throughout the world whether people agree with it or not he is one of the undeniable um forces that have really kept this tradition um have given it the this contour and this iteration and this message of uh along with certain characters certain personalities sorry of that era there was almost this and maybe we can touch back on this sh there was this kind of C Cambrian explosion of

Mystic Sufi uh thought and expression in the 600 700s you know all these great names that you hear today that shaped you know whether it's going to be uh Malana roomi Abdul Alani you're going to get um you know um chishi you're going to get so many you're going to get Shah Jalal of Bangladesh you're going to get nisam aah you're going to get all of these names uh Baba far these names that have gone

on that till today have shaped Regional uh local thought throughout the world is one of the key names of that Century so um yeah with that in mind she I wanted to lead us somebody had asked a question here and I think this is uh really something I I wanted to bring the discussion to and then as we set forth they asked that oh well you know why don't I have a conversation about this with let's say some other Mas and and they've mentioned and on a side note I'd love to

have a conversation with you know whenever that is possible but the reason they mentioned is because people disagree withi and some people have accused um they've I've seen comments sometimes on my videos about as oh as if this is against the voice of reason somehow um against the rational and and I want want to bring that because I I don't believe that this at all is against the voice of reason and you know the teachings the legacy of but I want to bring that to you you know this whole thing of the the

rational because you too and have been through this journey and the reason I'm highlighting this is because I've had people comment that you know oh about me that oh you know you were on this you know this kind of path of the voice of reason of rational thinking you know what what you know you this seems to be some contradiction to them now so yeah your journey first shift because you have also been a proponent of rational thought and so on um so I'd like you to chime in for me

all this and then so first of all um it's a very good question you have some Scholars who do seem to perhaps misunderstand what imn is saying and there's some reasons for that first of all they argue that his views are not rational and secondly they may also say that it's not based on Quran or Sunnah so that may come from the more conservative camp but those who are more from the rationalist they might say it's not rational now the thing is that remember I had mentioned before that you know I was that there are two types of knowledge in the Muslim in the Islamic tradition that is the Aki and the kni the AK is the intellectual and the knuckly is the transmitted the

transmitted knowledge is something that is Rel to rational aspects where else the intellectual one has the rational aspect but it's more also recognizes the imaginal understanding of what is reality now what happens is when the moment we talk about rationality what does it mean from an Islamic perspective you know when we're using the word also means to bind something so is then saying when you're using just simply akle that is rational thinking you're limiting something now why does he say that's problematic and why does he say that you know why one has to look with two eyes what does he mean by that look

the Quran clearly says for example that God you know who and so forth but he also says so what is saying what is saying that in order to understand the Divine and remember the world is the amination of the Divine names you have to see reality the world around you which is the manifestation of the Divine names from two perspectives the tan and and the in other words when you use your rational thinking sub God is beyond everything because you're you

know because God is beyond everything but at the same time he is the hearer he is the listener how do you understand that so that comes to the imaginal thinking that comes to the why there's a Hadith as well to support that this is in sah Muslim when the prophet was asked about the about what did he say the word means as if you seeing him how do you see the Divine through your imaginal thinking so is not negating the rational think that's just just a just sorry to interrup that's such a beautiful point just so just to

reiterate that to the the the listeners and the viewers that this Hadith incred one of the most popular hadiths in the entire tradition of Hadith you know within Islam is the Hadith of jiel that you know this this is the one of you know if you were to list I don't know five or 10 most popular Hadith that exist in Islam almost everybody would come up within that top 10 as the Hadith ofel you know it's there in the M it's in the major books of of Hadith and it's

about the the person coming in and asking the prophet these questions about what is Islam what is so on what is so on what is IM and but in this you have what isan you know you've gone from Islam this outward manifestation to Iman to this inward um kind of expression or manifestation and then something that is higher still Ean and in that the prophet

says that you worship Allah as though you can see him and I think this is such a beautiful explanation that you gave the she that how do you how does one how is it as though you are seeing him but this him that you are seeing what is it wherever you turn there is the face of the Divine and that is how and then the Quran also says that are you going to believe in some parts of the Quran and not and reject other so that is why is saying that see the Divine see the reality through both the rational

faculty but also the imaginal faculty and by the way like as you know when we say it's just not simply worship it means adore so adore your lord as if you see him so that so the imaginal leads to the love it leads to proximity and that's why where else the tan leads to distance so just to just to for for the viewers there that how are you seeing Allah you are seeing him through not only your rational faculties you're coming to understand him but through your

imaginal faculties and modalities as well so Allah the these two terms that Allah speaks to his creation through these two mediums if you like of these two Scopes one is of tan that Allah this Transcendent that Allah is transcendent you know we he he is and this especially in relation to sh when any in case anybody's about to think you know they're worshiping statues or superstition or Allah is

transcendent the other is through Allah giving similarities these kind of proximal um uh similitudes so you may understand so when you find in a Allah is saying look he is merciful now how do you understand Mercy because you've seen Mercy in the world Allah is and that's the case for example when we see for example When God says my Mercy precedes my wrath my anger you know I sometimes I give this example to my kids I'm like you see Mercy from your mother's side and you see Anger from my

side and God has made as parents so you see both the Jamal and the Jalal from him because God names are seen through the Jamal and Jalal and it is only the human being who's at that stage because God thought Adam all the names the Mala not thought all the Nam but God thought Adam alisam Adam alisam all the names as mentioned Surah Bak so we are that creation that can see the Divine names that is Jalal and Jamal and this is done through the process of the two eyes that's why says that if you use if you see the reality through eyes to through these two eyes you become the

IM and and that just for to understand the dichotomy presented in our tradition is one of Allah's Jamal his Beauty and his Jalal now Jalal it's not you see this is not to say positive negative but this is to say beauty and then almost this a but the a can almost terrify that's the a you know this term mysterium tremendum atasan the great mystery that terrifies yet incredibly

fascinates you so this this kind of all of the glory of God this so the word awesome being from that something that strikes this kind of Terror of its awe but the on the other side something that it Thrills you with its beauty that this Jamal of Allah so yeah just to explain that so you've got uh just circling back to we understand Allah through what is saying both of these you have t Transcendence but you

have hence Allah all these metaphors are given all these understand Allah is light you know the the the the metaphor of do you think does your mother love one of you of course you know would she throw her child Into the Fire hell no that what do you think of Allah then he loves you you know infinitely more than your mother this similitude metaphor being drawn that look theim the womb

is it is this kind of branch that stems from the rman because the word is a derivative and rman and so yeah if I may add also if you see in like um in other than our religious Traditions I mean even when we go towards this contemporary knowledge like my background I did my PhD in sociology to be honest I feel because I had a back my research uses a lot of quantitative analysis that I do like multiple regression all that the reality is while I'm doing all this quantitative research and this all seems rational but when I'm thinking about like connections

between different papers or when I'm thinking about General uh generalization of some findings what is happening I am in a way using my imaginal thinking of course I am connecting whatever that data is to some type of a connection and that's why like even in contemporary education we have this idea that you know first it used to be a positivistic approach to be taken but then there was the recognition that human feelings are also something that has to be recognized so then the qualitative aspect came from a knowledge and all that and now the idea is that one should have mixed research done where there's the quantitative aspect but the human experiences as well how are those connected through the imaginal thinking so you can see sorry go ahead that is

that is science I mean in the way that all of psychology especially how we have it today is based on quantitative and qualitative data it's based on qualitative reports qualitative research which is about the experiential element the so and I do love how Dr Ian mcil Grist as well highlights and he's one of the leading you know neuroscientists in the world he's British he highlights that the four uh modes of learning that he feels are the rational the scientific so he says you

know the rationale so the rational mind science uh imagination and intuition so these are Under and and I totally concur with what he's saying that we it's a shame that we as Muslims have somehow come to you know lose this sight of the power of imagination and we think that it's somehow uh anti-rational no it isn't no and if I may add people especially like perhaps we have um subcontinent Scholars especially who are quite rational or those who take a positivistic approach we need to recognize that the

subcontinent was colonized especially during the time where positivism was at its epic you know at its level of recognition such that other thinking was rejected so when India subcontinent was colonized the approach to take was that everything should be done in a mechanistic in a in a in in a very precise manner so then you have these contemporary Scholars of those times and you have still that effect where they're everything trying to rationalize in such a way that they can be measured for example and that has an impact so the colonization is not simply the colonization of the land it's the colonization of the mind as well and that's the beauty way now we says go you know unshackle that akle a as that that

bind that that is binding you basically see the reality see the world from these two eyes that that is the and also the rational thinking and then you will see the whole picture and it is that so just to to Echo that that yes there was this there was this era that we you know being mechanistically material was you know so anchored into that that was your your kind of presentation of being rational now that's not to say that that isn't rational that is rational as well but rationality

isn't just that so the mystical tradition this tradition which um I I don't mind calling it the mystical tradition I know sometimes I've had some guests they've said they don't like that term I actually do do like it but in Arabic uh this tradition the mystical tradition being called the tradition of of experience and it's not just talking about it's speaking of the mystics so they call they're not just speaking of any kind of but they mean thisani this kind of uh spiritual tasting so uh and tasting being

experiential this in no way it may seem um icon icon clastic to let's say the mechanistic tradition um or you know this kind of empirical thought because it relies on a different mode of expression but it is not in any way counter reason like you couldn't disprove the the you know this tradition by saying well it goes against another it goes against you know this sense of understanding that we have it doesn't it's just it just has a different uh

mode of expression and experience but it's not against it I would love to see people show me how in any way they feel I mean they I'm sure you know they may feel this but it isn't that how is this against the uh voice of reason in any way and to Echo that if I may add you know we have in the tradition the idea of

um the rational site can lead up to and but it is that that leads to I'll give you an example let's say no one someone hasn't tasted an apple okay and I tell them about it's measurement and I say that you know it's grown in this country from this tree they know it is an apple but they won't know the taste of the Apple unless they haven't tasted it it's like someone you tell a person about fire they they they heard it from reliable that's a low level of certainty they go to a higher level where they see a fire but when will they get that actual experience when they taste it and that is where the whole aspect of that

moak where you spoken about comes into play even rational from Scholars like Sufi these great Scholars they're like this rational thing is like an emanation of the actual like highest level of the the first intellect for example so the problem is that rational thinking while it is sufficient in the sense of providing certain level of knowledge it doesn't lead to the highest level of knowledge and to use that to negate this imaginal thinking is problematic yeah and uh just to to add to that that at the heart of This Dean you know one thing I they've come to

learn and I say learn or to be realized as in to be made more real to me in these last few years which I don't see now it's it's weird it's weird sometimes thinking what did I know and didn't I know because the the you know the F of insan is when we are in a particular mode of knowing we think we always knew it it's it's difficult sometimes exper trying to experience yourself as not knowing something which you now know so I'm not sure whether I totally didn't know this or I did know it but it wasn't at the

Forefront but that at the center of the dean is the sacred and you know this the truly the concept this this thing the sacred it is the heart of the theme and I don't think I I don't know whether I didn't know that or if I did know that but I didn't realize it the way I realized it in the last few years but I know it wasn't there in my prior discourse the way it emerged in these recent years so at the

heart of things is the sacred but what is the sacred see the sacred has a rational explanation but that's like the description of the Apple the sacred is not information per se it is a realization it is a experience it is a you know something that by tasting it or experiencing you enter into submission it's not so I feel that that's a key difference in in my shift

has been you know that this this true realization that at the heart of this is the sacred of Islam which can only truly be captured by tasting it now you could sure talk about it all day you could write books about it you could argue rationally philosophically you can do all of that but it doesn't it's still falls short so yeah sure and um you know like you mentioned the center of this whole religion is the sacred and that is

what divine unity and to experience that one has to recognize the primordial love that exists between the Creator and the creation Before Time itself that the love exists you know the Quran inah says that is the basis of everything that he loves them he loves his creation his people and therefore exactly so now once that happens then the whole perspective changes because then you see so just to you you you said and therefore yes I use

the wow in the sense much more yeah that's much more powerful shukran for that I appreciate that that's not just and they love him and therefore they love they love him that his love you is the source and the kind of sub that they can love him right that's even more beautiful so shukran actually I was I was just doing it much yeah I was just saying and they love him but this is much more profound and with that then what do we see what happens is that when there's this recognition of love one goes towards this inward Journey Through

the Quran which becomes a love letter like uh R she said that the quranic verses are love letters and when as a lover you read the letters of your beloved you don't find any faults in it and you know clearly Allah says for example everything he has created is beautiful so wherever you turn and you see the face of your beloved all you do is you just say Subhan Allah and you fall in love it again and again and you don't see anything negative and then you recognize that there is no distance between you or him in truth you know there's theith well

known so if he's saying who is he loving yes he is loving us but he's actually loving his own himself in the sense that he is seeing himself through that mirror Allah knew saw him Allah knows himself but he then will to see himself through a mirror we are that mirror the believer is the mirror of the other of the believer and also theth that you know my servant doesn't continue with these uh you know with these good Expressions except you know I was the Hands by which he grasps the eye by which he

sees uses this Hadith a lot of time probably the Hadith that he used the most is this one where he's the that when Allah loves his his servant then he becomes his hearing through which he hears his sight through which he sees he see through he can I just say that I I and I'd come across the explanations saying that it's not that Allah becomes but that he was always for I was but you just didn't realize it exactly didn't realize I was already The Hand by which you grasped the eye by which you saw but you just didn't realize it no exactly this is what

happened the person recognizes where they're coming from because the person is simply the you can say the um uh the actuality of that um what do you call that for example that immutable entities that is the Divine names right yeah so those are the Divine names and then we got this existence from him so that is at the end we're nothing but simply you can say the manifestation of the Divine names and just to to add to what you said she about that Allah sees himself in your beauty that what you also the

hadithi the popular one that had you visited the person who would have you found when you visited him you'd have found me Allah says had you fed him the hungry person who would have you been feeding Allah says you would have you would have found me yes ex had you given the yeah so you have within that Hadi two levels of understanding for the people first Allah says you know I was sick and you didn't visit me I was hungry and you didn't the person y you're the you know how can you be ill how right then that's the that's the Transcendent but this is this is the this the oh you know this is I don't

want no shik yeah you know this this so beautiful because sh this is the Hadith that out of For the Love of Islam certain Muslims will repel this thought by saying No shik this could be shik I ially this is a Hadith that Allah is saying you know I was sick I was hungry I was thirsty and then now that caricature of this this Muslim who out of his love and jealousy you know this kind of sorry ofed saying Ya Allah how can you be it perfectly caricatures this

moment doesn't it yes how can you be this is exactly you also have that um Surah for example where about that person who you know the idea that a person is thirsty he sees a mirage that quranic verse right yeah so I'm just looking for that one and it's very interesting again how again we have to recognize Arabi says God doesn't speak in approximations the Quran is the word of God it is the truth so the word the letter itself is the truth it therefore its meanings are also the truth so is not looking at this type of philosophy or this type of ism he

simply looking at the letter and I repeat that is the the truth for him and so the meanings it has in it those are all the all true as well and because the Arabic language is polysemantic it has multiple meanings for each word he's able to give multiple understandings or multiple interpretations about it so this is something interesting and if I look at that particular words that I'm looking for you could you can bring that up because the Arabic language till then I'll just tell it is known for it having multiple meaning it is something and in the realm of it's often you know this this becomes a huge in fact Arabic has this thing and you

can get books on it known as the kind of opposites yes so the words that are spelled they're not just homophones or words that sound the same they actually spelled the same identical but they will have the opposite did and so you have that in Arabic all the time you know popular uh you'll get word like in the Quran the famous thing to do with the menstrual uh cycle is it to do with the entering the uh the menstruation or is it to do with the to the period of Purity both of which are called so you get this kind of debate going on all the

time but yeah and that Hadith you mentioned right you know about that God said I was sick and you didn't visit me now the way is taking this literal approach and that's why I say that his thinking or his perspective is rooted in the Quran and Sunnah but the reason people have difficulty is that perhaps they don't recognize that what literal doesn't mean just one interpretation literal taking it because the Arabic language is such it has multiple meanings that's why it is known as a polysemantic language or polycal language so anyhow that Sur I was refering and just as you're bringing that up can I caveat that Chef by saying that you know look I totally Champion

the voice of criticality and critical thinking and you know be having I always say that you know it's one of it's such an important skill I would hear people say this before about but to be honest I thought it was you know St just a bunch of I thought people were just you know when when you adulation like you know when you love a uh a scholar you say oh you know like people let's say the love for Imam Abu hanifah now we're going to say well Imam Abu hanifah never broke his wo for 40 years or we're going to say something just excessively untrue which we don't need to because Imam Abu hanifah is a

great personality he doesn't need that one unrealistic point he's he's a great personality regardless so I would hear people say that you know shei oh he's so refers to the Quran constantly and he's so I thought come on let's be you know before I wasn't I wasn't anti but I wasn't as I didn't understand him uh as I I've come to recently and I thought this was just adulation and ex you know just exaggeration but man I truly experience this I was shocked

actually shocked that it's no exaggeration the amount of referencing he does to the Quran and Hadith but he just does it in ways that you weren't expecting exactly so that's the that's the twist The Twist yeah and an example of that might is this is in Surah n verse 39 about that uh you know that and this is with regards to a disce Believer right that his Amal are like the Mirage in a low land which a thirsty one thinks is waterfill then the vers is the following which it

says so a lot of people say that this word means that you know then God will punish him and mention that that sorry Surah verse 39 39 okay yeah so for some Exodus for the muf the idea is that then God will punish him but is saying no he's in fact saying that just as God revealed himself to Moses in the form of fiream in the burning bush all need is the need for God and God shows himself to the creature in the form of his need so this man who has been fooled by this Mirage

will find God so sorry I just brought that up so yes I just missed uh a part in between that that was the verse yes um yeah so you can see right so we just that their actions are like a mirage you can see that there uh people that that a thirsty person would assume obviously wrongly that it is a in a water until he reaches it he found it to be

nothing and he found and that's because this person is now exhausted they they collapsed exactly and they find what they find God there and he Allah settled his account with this person now keeping in mind the verse began with exactly those who disbelieved their actions are like a mirage in the end the verse is coming to Allah settle their account so this is understood to be negative but you were saying

uh is taking in a positive sense again because his harmonics his understanding of Islam is based on mercy and the reason he says is that as in the Quran mentions my Mercy encompasses everything Allah is saying my Mercy encompasses everything so what he says is that this is a need and the need is something that basically that the way mam um the way God subhana T revealed himself to m alisam in the form of fire because the reason was M alisam wanted fire right he had gone out in search of fire similar in this case this person find will find Allah subhah wa ta'ala and in this way he will find Mercy as

well so he's saying that even though he didn't find water he found God exactly because all needs is a truth need for God whatever we seeking in truth is actually simply the seeking of a Divine name I'll give you an example when we want to look for like you know a lot of people they want wealth well the wealth is coming from which Divine name as well exactly exactly person is seeking knowledge you know I want to seek a lot of knowledge where's that where's that thing being derived from from that Divine name

Al and so every need is actually in truth the need for the Divine it's simply people don't know yeah for example someone loves another person because they find that maybe their character beautiful they conduct beautiful well in truth it's only God who is beautiful someone wants power in truth it's only God who is Al so in a way this person's thirst although in in that moment there is this thirst for water but in but Ro root symbolic for an Ever unquenched thirst in a way that we

have for the Divine along with that it also says clearly so he doesn't find anything in other words he isn't not not finding any secondary causes anymore no more secondary causes no subbs or anything in truth it's only the divine and that's whyi says it is when you find nothing that you find God because God can only be found in the absence of things okay that wa who okay that that

is okay so almost as if when this you know this temptation of something disappears yes so are you saying in a way almost to be either to be rock bottom or to have almost been disheartened but that's interesting because of the the saying that Allah is with those who whose Hearts have been broken then right the of doesn't it continue if I stop here so when you're nothing you're just nothing you see him

yeah that that is amazing that one just for the uh viewers that the famous Hadith of thean that of um jiel that we were speaking of that how do you what isan that you worship Allah uh you know as though you are actually seeing him now but if you don't then you know he is seeing you but thisi is highlighting that if you you take this in its in its

parts if you cease to be yeah at that stage you will see him and if I may add to that mu sa in reality all of us including atheists are simply worshiping the Divine some know some don't some are following what God has said some are not what is this B based on again just to give an example of how is a literalist but how it gives a vast understanding you have in Surah 17 Al verse 23 where it is

that so here the word is a decree and that's where kind of disagree but for the Divine decree is something that is happening that you know it's it's ordained yeah so he is saying all of of us are doing that we know or we don't know and now you can see another sorry go ahead no because often when Allah uses the verb in the Quran he is speaking about this ruling you see so this verse and your lord decreed that none besides him shall be worshiped

sorry sorry let me retranslate that and your lord decre read that you will never worship anybody except him now now is this here there is a debate is this this is a commandment of God it's a decree is this a um decree is

this is this a cosmic decree or as in a creation decree or is this a Shar decree so is Allah here saying your lord decreed that it will be Haram Haram for you that you will never worship other than him in a Halal way as in in the way in the sh way in the legislative way or is this an meaning that creation have all of

creation not just you me has been if you want to use the word wired predetermined to only worship God now here they disagree that what is this am what is this imperative if I may add to that as you know both meanings can be this case that you know because as is taking he's taking his an engendering command the is the command and then you have the prescriptive Command right now engineering command engendering in gendering oh engendering engender I oh I like that no no Divine engineering I like I actually

like that maybe it's a good way to say right so the Divine engineering right which is this Divine decree or the prescriptive now another interesting part why a one cannot disagree that is negating in this time because he is r in Arabic andab saying look as long as it meets the Arabic way as the sah the Arabs themselves understand one cannot reject it because it's the meaning coming from the Divine but there's another verse which is very interesting and this is um the following

verse there is no creature but that he holds its for loock and then it says my Lord is on on a path that is straight so Allah subh T has held every creatures for lock and because he's on the straight path everyone is in a straight part for them and what this means for the viewers is that just so we understand th this interpretation both interpretations are valid now sure people who say it's only a they may disagree with the others but they say it's aini meaning an an

engineering a Divine engineering they're not disagreeing with the Shar perspective they're not saying oh in Islam it's of course in Islam it is saying that you must only worship Allah so a question here would be that look oh well if that's the case that everybody worships Allah but they don't because people fall into let's say Superstition people do shik people worship idols people worship and what AR is highlighting here that the drive and this impulse within to worship is that kind of compass and

that engineering to the Divine now this Compass may be misapplied like you are misapplying it by you know bowing to this statue the pull towards this true magnetic north has been placed there by Allah that inner pull is divine like you are yearning pining to worship and submit to the Divine except this capsule and shell might be you know misapplying it to this statue and so on that that's how sorry you about to add to that yeah everyone has a point of reference in

other words everyone has a Divine face even if you talk about atheist they do have a point of reference you know they're focused Ona so they have accepted one part of the Divine that there is no Divine except Allah that is the second part they looking at exactly the other day teaching her ill and she kept

saying Yeah but yeah sorry carry on so the the thing is that basically those people the error of the the mistake of the mush the polies is that for example they're engag in a form of adoration that is not prescribed by Allah subhah wa ta'ala but then the next question comes well why are they then being punished and here alsoi based on the harmonics of mercy and Beauty explains how even the aab at the end becomes mercy so the whole understanding of his looking of the reality is that there's nothing but Mercy just to and I want to uh come back to this point because there's going to

be a lot of questions about that point but just to just to C just to add to what you what you know what you're saying about uh that what everybody is seeing in creation any wonder is a reflection of a Divine attribute or a Divine um you know like a Divine print so to speak so let's say we see Splendor uh we see beauty now we are drawn to Beauty because ultimately we are drawn to Allah so we see this kind of glimpse of

the term T this taji of uh this kind of divine expression this Divine print on Earth of Allah's Glory of his creation and people are drawn to that and would that also be a um a point you know worthy of saying that see one of the reasons cuz I was asked this and and and this was something I saw and understood but to run it past you that

look that why this this kind of if if people are worshiping wrongly what they're seeing let's say glimpses of the Divine expression whether it's in Beauty whether it's in Jesus for example because he's this you know great personality and theyve seen glimpses this mirror of divine uh manifestation so they start worshiping him and wrongly of course and things but the language and and hence the language of the Quran towards them towards Christians although it wrong it it emphasizes that the shik is wrong that Jesus is not the Son of

God but the language towards the Christians is actually you know one of uh compassion one could argue and understanding but the language towards the mush of Makkah is in the Quran uh arguably like a harsh very harsh uh tone that is taken and what was the reason for this distinction now I was asked this and and I I actually thought about it for a a long while she honestly I was trying to get my head around and I was trying to understand that and what I found myself

with was that you see whereas many people have seen let's say wrongly app worshiped something by seeing this you know maybe so so much beauty or Elegance or what they feel are like miracles in a person or something now they've wrongly ended up worshiping that that shik has been condemned by Islam but you see the mush of mecah the that there was some key reasons that one these kind of Idols that they

created or these stones that they stood up in that there wasn't a Divine beauty that they saw in it there wasn't this kind of but rather it was this inherited uh tradition of superstition that they didn't it didn't reflect any of that but when they were asked to just use your reason then they refused to even reason and they said this is what we found our forefathers upon that who are you to tell us differently even though it was

just something they carved out of their own hands some piece of mud put it together it wasn't you know something that they thought oh this is so beautiful it was just this tradition that was handed to them rooted in Superstition an oppression and when asked to reason they refused to you know the one thing that Allah has said okay use your reason no that this is what warranted that harsh tone to kind of wake them up th this this was something I had responded with I want your thoughts on it sh and maybe what you know because why this tone because by

what you're saying that look you see the kind of divine uh uh work of of art you know in his creation and people worship that uh wrongly so but then why the harsh tone to the um the mush of Makkah that's that's a good question and I was just thinking you know it just came this thought to me I and I have to look into this further but the first the primary recipients of the divine revelation were the Arabs that the mush right and the people of the book had already

received Revelations and you know it the Quran is for everyone but I feel because it is like they were the primary recipients the focus was so much on them it is like as a parent seeing your child going away I'm giving example here and again you see I'm using my to explain this the imaginal thinking if I see my son for example doing something wrong and I'm explaining to him and still he's adaman then there's more force of my Expressions to tell him don't do this but for me that is also a reflection of the Divine love that God is showing to these mush as well in Arabia that yes the tone is

Harsh however it is an expression of another way of showing love to them that because they have got a revelation that they didn't get before and they've been told in so many ways logically through seeing the nature through using irrational thinking and they're adamant not to listen and then sorry go ahead no no because I I was sorry am am I interrupting so so based on that if you see it's not immediately started but because the moment they started rejecting the prophet wasam that's a proof in itself they rejected the signs that is the worldly signs the the the signs of the cosmos they're rejecting intellect and everything then the tone

becomes harsher and then they've been told about this but for me it is again from that perspective I see it is another expression of divine love for them because what I was going to say is that you see CU this question that there were Christians in the north Christians in the South you know dynasties uh the you know the byzantines the axum mites or all what was left of the axite Kingdom let's say and the vestiges the Christians of the Eastern Arabia you had the zarrian of the north as well going into that part of let's say Iraq and so

on and Persia and assassinate Empire but the strong tone taken towards the mush of Mecca um not obviously not so present whilst addressing the Christians of the North or even the Christians that were present um now one so the the what I was seeing was that just as you were saying that look something's been explained rationally it's been spoken articulated it's been the signs are in front of you

yet you know that they refuse to even see refuse to listen refuse to and it's not even that they are saying that look oh this is the re like they're not even you know their reasoning isn't one of that they see Divine toell in this piece of mud that they've Clump lumped together it's just that well my Granddad used to worship it so so that yeah so it's like don't tell me what a stubbornness a Huber is that's exactly and and for me that again for at least I see this again when I'm for example

explaining to my kids my children my sons that and they're not listening I become a bit more forceful in my explanation why am I doing that because I see something is wrong they if they do something let's say they're doing some wrong act it can have an impact going forward so when Allah subh is talking the qu the PO the mushin he has first told them gently he has sent a prophet and the tone has become more savior to explain to them the consequences of their wrongful acts isn't this also an expression of divine love yeah I see and bringing this back

to what you were saying she about rahma yes yes so what would you um you know you said that about that even in the end Eternal damnation from a perspective one would argue that even Eternal damnation is rahma yes yes and I can Andi says for example in this case it's not you know when Allah chooses a particular word there must be a reason he didn't choose another word why did he use the word aab which often we translate as you know

punishment well I remember and this is interesting this is why I tell a lot of people please you know read the tradition don't just listen to people we have an you know tendency in the Muslim World simply taking a five minute clip and just getting trying to get an answer from that learn seek knowledge anyhow so I told that how the word aab can also have a meaning of sweetness and the some of my call you know people I know they were upset they were just like rejecting like oh what nonsense you're saying now here's the thing says the word aab has been used because it also is the from the same

three letters that aaba is derived sweetness now I'm going to give you a quranic evidence for that in two suras Surah 25 verse 53 Allah says and I'm just going to read the part of it now the word here the word has been it's been used what does it mean asbun means fresh or sweet and then again in Surah 35 verse

12 again the word has been which means one is fresh and sweet so sweet or freshness has been used SOI says because remember in the Quran it clearly says his Mercy encompasses everything and he himself said so he says yes he believes there's going to be punishment of course there's going punishment he he takes what the Quran says but the Mal the ending will be on Mercy because Mercy prevails over wrath Allah's Mercy prevails over his wrath so excuse me while Mercy while hell is something that remains its

condition changes it State changes and he gives an example why are the Mala in there like they're the angels of Hellfire to you know to why are they in that in that place they're not being punished so then if says that that place changes in a way that yes it remains hell but the composition of that human body its nature is much more suitable for Hellfire because their nature is something that is more that you know when we talk about El he was made from fire and what did he show proudness so those people who have proudness in them and arrogance in them they're more

suitable for an environment such as that in fact he goes to that extent saying that their composition as not balance and had they gone to Paradise it would be problematic from them they wouldn't receive that Felicity which they may which they're receiving in Hellfire so he bases that the aab at the end becomes it converts into a which becomes sweetness or you can say agreeableness to their nature and it is true we see in the animal kingdom certain animals are more accommodate like they are more they can accommodate or they are more suitable to a certain environment rather than others we see that in human in in us as well those who

live in Winter for example in cold places are more climatized are more comfortable than living in a warm place so this is how Arabi looks at this perspective I see so all you so somebody sorry so somebody just wanting an explanation on that let's say yeah they're saying oh are you stating that the punishment of the a even that is a state of Mercy that's what you're saying uh that's what is saying sorry you're explaining how could how could that be yeah so people TR let's say somebody

people trying to understand that right so first of all Arabi says pain cannot be Eternal pain cannot be Eternal because Mercy Embraces everything so theni says that the state of Hell will remain what it is but Mercy will produce a Felicity without the form or the status of the infernal abort being modified and so what's the have you got the number of the verse I'm just going to sorry with regards to the sweetness of the water you sweet so you can look at Surah 25 verse 53 or you can look at Surah 35 Surah fat verse 12 whichever

one you would like like to look at are you able to find it right sorry I just lost you there for a moment what I was just bringing that up which which one were you looking at verse uh of what Surah yeah you can look at either verse 20 Surah 25 verse 53

Surah Surah Alan verse 5 or you can look at F 35 that's Surah 35 verse 12 so let's see uh the one uh uh no no not not that one not the and what's the other one verse 35 Surah 35 did you say yes Surah 35 verse 12 12 right okay so just to bring that s of yeah we're speaking about um right right no no oh right so you're talking about the ones with drinking yes with drinking water water yes oh right

no no sorry I thought you're talking about the other verse of um you know that the that the fire is from within a a mercy for them oh no no I I wasn't referring I'm just saying that no no no I was referring to the wor in terms of why the word aab has been used if saying the word has been used just showing the term okay so in this yes so in in this just so people could see um the term let me just put that there so the term for is used in the Quran on a number to be fair it's used you know on more than

one occasion in Arabic uh as the word both share the same root eological root and it comes from the word sweetness as you can see there the two seas are not you know equal about the two Seas one being salty one having water that is drinkable and sweet so but this appears on more than one occasion exactly and if I may add doesn't the Quran say my Mercy encompasses everything so isn't the Hellfire included in everything in fact this is the argument that even used against another she Andi mentions this

talk that had with a certain Sheikh by the name of sahin Abdullah and what does he say he says the last thing that said to sahal was this Allah said my Mercy Embraces all things which is an affirmation destined to all now you must have noticed that I one of those things without any doubt the word all implies the UN is also from the K yes exactly I'm from the K as well so then you got to admit that this knows how to debate right so then so s then says I did not think you would say that

then what says oh means limitation is your attribute and not Allah's you are limiting Allah's attribute and say that again sorry say say say say that part I so the same you know when you said is a very clever uh you know right so this is what s replies I did not think that your lack of knowledge would go that far the response of is I did not not think that you would say that oh sah do you not know that limitation is your attribute and not his that is of Allah not then says says at

that moment I realized that rajim possessed incontestable knowledge and that in this problem it is he who was s's teacher so not so will not help that's an extract from what is that from That's from the fatat or from yes from the fat from the yeah from from this book that I have so my point is when people say about Hell Fire will it not be Mercy again one has to see it from the eyes of the from Love from Divine love when you see everything from the eyes of divine love is it so just if somebody was to ask that when you say Mercy yes do you mean you know to to get some some

kind of proximal understanding do you mean that it you know like a distancing from God is that what you mean do you mean it is a punishment still like a pain do you mean it's uh because one could argue that well cleansing from one perspective is a mercy so they could say well fire cleanses you know like you purify Metals in fire so you know one could say well that's a cleansing so from that symbolic sense one could say oh is this a mercy cleansing you of your sins but Ari is not just using it in that sense of

saying like cleaning metal from he he kind of tries to in a way there there can be interpretation based on that because what happens is that you know we have narrations where a person will enter Heaven after a certain time in hell because he has been cleansed right yeah now what is saying is that every person is put in a place that is com that is coresponding to their composition to their own nature and that is why he's saying that some people will remain in Hellfire because their composition is not of balance had they gone in heaven they would not find

that Bliss that Felicity as they would find in hell because that accommodates their nature and their nature is like a fire okay obviously the afterlife in its true understanding is in incomprehensible to us as as of where we only have approximation and our mentality but are you do you like what is he saying in the sense that is it a is he saying that you know because you have is he saying it is an act like are they being is there is it a torment but it's just not Eternal

or is he saying that the torment is it's maybe not how people are picturing the torment but it's still a torment but it's a different it's one that is like what is he I'm trying to you know just so people can make sense of what your I my understanding is what I understood Allah forgive me if I'm wrong is that he recognizes he's a person who takes literal understanding if there is torment he will say there is torment but then what he's trying to say is that that will eventually end now at the same time Arab would also recognize that the biggest torment the biggest torment or the the most severe torment is separation from the Beloved and that is why you have sh who do mention that the

worst punishment is being away from the Beloved that is the Divine beloved so does he say that there is torment yes he says there like he would take that because the Quran talks about those things but at the same time he will say that the end will be mercy and he says that Mercy at the end that t torment doesn't remain as such the type of nourishments that they get connects corresponds to the nature of that person who is living there and that is how is taking that he's not the thing is a lot of times we want to see it symbolic or meaning interpretations but my reading as far as

I understood may Allah forgive me is that he is a person who takes literal but within that he finds Mercy within that it is yeah and I was you see the the verse that CU when I was reading about what CU I was trying to understand this from II and obviously it's very the nature of it is complex because on one hand he's very clear for you know affirming the the and so on very clear he doesn't deny that there isn't anab but then he on the other hand um has that now I'm trying to let me just bring up that

verse what he what he takes it is that hell will remain Eternal but the pain will go away and that pain out of the mercy will become something that is blissful that is that is Felicity for those people in the Hellfire that is how he is taking it of course you have other perspectives um Hello can others hear me I'm not sure hello yes hello yep you yep we can hear you sorry okay sorry because I there was hanging freezing so anyhow as I was saying iabi does not deny the rejection of Hellfire as the way it is

in the sense that um you know he believes there's Hellfire but what he's saying is that pain is not going to be Eternal Hellfire is going to be Eternal but what happens that Mercy since Embraces everything that Mercy will produce for the those who are in the Hellfire of Felicity without the form of the stat of the internal being modified so the Constitution is such now that it has accommodated or it has adjusted to the environment that they are in and if so that is one way he takes for example we do see how human nature itself in this present world for example this was the verse that I had seen uh you know read Ari speaking about now

verse 13 that you know those who are damned especially from thef who you can imagine are in the worst pits or stage of hell they say to those of Faith they want to take from the light of the Believers that let us take from your light um so they told to to return that you know that they're you know go like get

away from the Believers and seek your light that between you know for these Hypocrites there is this fence this wall that is set up you know this kind of this great you know barrier here this door it's used as door but you can see there as as a kind of barrier between them a wall uh with a gate as you can see in the

translation you see that between them on the inner side like internal batin from within it is a mercy although from its apparent it appears as a punishment to them so uh this was the verse Surah Hadid uh verse 13 that then that I had seen a discussion of uh on explaining but once again that even the of

the has this kind of that that weirdly it has some form of almost La for them and he was explaining that it has weirdly some form of uh pleasure that and there's another verse which he uses as well where that are these not the things that you would find pleasure in something about it brings that the that they would find pleasure in those actions in the world that there is that this verse is brought as well and then what's emphasized is the the that you see this

this kind of being this separate now that the veils have been removed you know about God this inner yearning and pining and this distance from God it causes that suffering as well adds to the whole suffering but it's not just to clarify it's not um it's not to say that there is no hell or anything there's no damnation there is not that's not what I had read from or what I was understanding fromi but that somehow that torment

they they find a kind of pleasure from it yes this is what I was understanding so it's not so much to say um we that he's saying everybody is in heaven in the afterlife he's not saying that yeahi is not and we have some people who might say that all these are symbolically and they might find other interpretation but fori he's not a reject he's not a denier of of the herea he's not a denier of the punishment of Hell Fire he recognizes that but what he is doing is through that harmonic of Mercy he changes the whole thing because

in the Muslim you have in the especially you know in the majority understanding is that someone who goes into Hellfire is eternally damned he saying that is not the case and then you also know there's the other opinion which is also from Omar that he says that Hell Fire will be extinguished and interestingly this to be fair is actually the opinion of T and definitely at least I know the a lot of kind of followers try to distance him from it but it's in secondly what I understood and I my preliminary understand of that narration is that the only argument they have is that oh it cannot be because Hass alas

has narrated a Mor so he doesn't mention but as we know in the and the Mal even Mal sorry is acceptable and after Hass albas the chain is sound in the transmission so my point is that I don't think a person like Hass albas is going to falsely attribute something to when he says that hell will be extinguished that is you have so you have that perspective yeah now and and it is also I think transmitted from mas and a few of the Sal and I think binas has a fatwa on it as well where he although he's not affirming it but he's narrating that this has been transmitted from some of the salaf and the reason why once again

B bimbas and other people have had to comment is because there is actually a by on on the perishing of the fire and it's um and and this whole thing he's in it I think he's challenging people who are challenging this notion and he's he is saying it's from I as well although I think some followers try to distance but they leave to it but yeah so from this perspective we can see that if you're just talking about's worldview it is rooted in Quran and Hadith now the

problem is for many Muslims and this is where the rational thinking comes limits when he saying become the station of no station you're able to take the contradictory attributes and everything and recognize that these are all the Divine names that you are witnessing when individuals say oh how is this possible Ohi is going the Hadith of the Quran maybe and this shows this is the another benefit of taking this approach that a person becomes humble in the sense that they recognize that their knowledge is not the knowledge that there are other views that can be

present and that's where you recognize that the tradition of Islamic thinking is vast and it allows you to see reality from different perspective because the end of the day whichever view you take that does not extinguish that does not not limit the Divine reality because the Divine reality that is Allah is far above anything we can understand but if we Circle back to what is the essence of Islam it is that se search for that sacred and that is that Divine beloved and that is where sorry is leading to people that through the folling of the Shar through the act of the Sharia

become such that you're hearing yeah sorry go ahead no sorry and this was another verse just to add to that that you can see from surah h uh where you get um right there 106 speaking of people in the in in Eternal damnation the fire for those Bound for misery they will be in the fire where they will be sighing and gasping or gasping that that forever in it as long as the heavens and earth and Earth

endures now under this discussion you will find this as well this debate in some of the T book that they will be in the Hellfire forever except you know except what your lord wishes so this then causes a whole debate that wait a minute what why why is there an ill there except unless right what you know what your Lord will so now some people would say well they'll find another expression for that but if you read the Tas to do with this uh Surah uh

H verse 107 you will see as well in some of the Tas this discussion being brought up those who said that the perishing of the fire of the damnation um and you'll see some of the references to the Sal in some of the books you'll depending how late the MU references to references to amongst other people and yeah just to highlight that and so adding to that I would just say is that you know when a person is trying to understand these different perspectives they shouldn't just limit it from what they understand their understanding is because their understanding is simply understanding of

Islam that is a reflection of their own thinking Islam is beyond that these sh like I was speaking to you before this talk I told you that we have at least in the biography of that he studied with at least 70 some he studied like the seven recitations the multiple readings of the Quran he studied bukari he studied Muslim one can disagree but then one should also seek knowledge I see a lot of individuals you know how many have studied how many people have studied the or studied books his principle his hermeneutic hiso of

Rah of Mercy being and this Divine love yes that is the you know at the the the heart of everything you know this thing of that Allah this Hadith that the theim the womb is this torn Branch or sorry this kind of rooted Branch coming from Rahman and in some Hadith it's made um more illustrative by saying it is a shna shna is this kind of this something like a a

root that stems you know it has his but in some it says that it is this root this kind of myum structure root it mentions hwa is actually the waistband by the waist of rman it is clinging on and um

in and there is another term as well actually sorry now it's interesting those are not the more popular but they are found in some of the texts because they then affirm that attribute of and but this this illustration almost illustrative description of trying to root things into mercy and why it's giving the womb as an example because of why you know the mercy aspect that people associate with a mother they they don't I I mean you know

on Earth if you were to think of our human psychosocial entities and you were to give one concept that symbolizes Mercy to people you know you were to use one word that almost anybody could agree on I mean so you if you gave religion it wouldn't maybe everybody wouldn't agree on that but the term the symbol mother would be almost you know an encapsulating symbol for Mercy yeah if I may add to that we have that Hadith the well-known Hadith that Allah made Mercy into 100 parts that one

part has been descended to this world and it's through that I'm just giving the meaning of it is this Mercy is that where a horse raises a ho over his child for fear of trampling so even the mercy that seen among Animal Kingdom or that is seen among human being is from that one part but the interesting is and this is in sah Muslim then the prophet Alat wasam said that Allah has kept 99 parts of Mercy to show to his servants on the day of Resurrection so if we see this one part of Mercy that for example a mother shows towards her child in this Dunya the 99 part remains in the now doesn't theith also say have good opinion about your

lord and the people who are who distrust who do not trust God they have bad views or negative views about Allah shouldn't we have positive view good view about Allah and then this process of Love transformation that even AB is talking about there is a stage where the person does not care whether he's put into Hell or Heaven because even that is a selfish sign so this whole journey is not about trying to go into heaven or hell yeah they are trying to say that sorry just I'm so glad you brought that up yeah they are trying to say that look even if you are hoping to go into paradise and that's why you're worshipping that's not true love that is selfish needs you're showing that you're loving Allah for

something you are gaining so when you're gaining something that is not from another person that's why you're loving that person that's not true love true love is when whatever the Divine beloved decides you're content with that you're like I'm done that is that is the you know the the a key almost um Hallmark of this tradition of the of the mystics has been right from the sala's time you know right from and other people coming right down that they transmitted this thing of these concepts of Heaven and Hell

have distracted people they would often say that you know heaven and hell has become an unfortunate distraction from the true goal which is Allah himself and and it's and although it is we're not saying this is we're not saying in a dichotomy of right and wrong Allah out of his Mercy just just like the Hadith we're talking about that Allah said I was ill and you did not visit me and the imediately the person say Oh Lord You're the you know how can you get ill and then he said if you found someone that person had you gone to him you would have found me we need to recognize people have different personalities some do seek rewards and

Allah out of his Mercy has provided reward some people actually are afraid of punishment so Allah has mentioned punishments as well yeah but then the aim the true aspect of Islam is to fall in love with the actual beloved to find what your relationship is I love that you CL you added and and mentioned that because it's so important that we Allah's creation we the people have different personalities different uh spectrums different like let's say we there is a spectrum there is going to be a certain point on this there are certain people who they are drawn to

certain people who are only motivated by sanctions you know to them it's not even a reward it's that they don't want to be in trouble and I've personally met people like this and and I'm sure we all have that to them they will tell you you know they they're more driven by not being in trouble and not by loss and suffering than they are for reward but then you'll get some who are more driven for reward than anything else and these are all valuable it's not to deny that you know Allah in the Quran

says you know that strive towards a you know this is how vast it is so you are being you know you know that why don't you compete in good actions now this this is all valid it's all beautiful but to the people of th to the Mystic tradition there is a higher order than this this is fine it is part of the spectrum it is about you know there's some people driven for rules they've driven for and I've spoken in

the past as well in a leanian sense in in in this in psychoanalysis uh it is referred to as a metonymic and a metaphoric relationship but here you would have you have this but then you have a higher order the higher order is Allah himself that this all of this is a lower order it's still valid you know it's still beautiful but there is a higher order and that is the Divine himself that you you know sure you do this that you worship ship Allah not out of a you know some people might worship out of a sense

of fear some people out of a sense of reward but no out of this love for Allah himself and when we know that and the word is from H which means both both good and beautiful then you will never see any issues that and this is one of the outward aspects one when a person takes this view all the challenges they're having in their lives they will just simply smile and we know the person in thisth the person who smiled the most was the prophet sallallah alai he lost his wife he lost his children except B faam yet he was the most content why

maybe perhaps one reason might be because he saw the Divine reality you know when we use the word t itself is derived from the word Quran itself because where is seeking so that word yeah in in fact in the Quran it mentions that and when his Lord expressed his you know himself to the mountain now what is this Divine expression this theophany this taji and you will see and I showed it in my last uh one of my recent Islamic psychology sessions that uh many of the

MU I believe himself was it transmits it that it was said uh that the Lord revealed of his glory a thumbnail amount they say they use the example I'm saying a lot of the hanab had used that example so it is I mean I'm not saying that that is how it is I'm saying that's how they transmitted it but Allah revealed it says when his glory could not be handled even a tiny amount cannot be handled to you know by by by creation in that sense of his true

Essence so yeah so this is in the Quran it is a verse of the Quran and and another thing it is only the heart of the Believers that can contain the Divine and again when we talk about this often one a a person might hear oh there isn't any Hadith like this well one needs to recognize there are certain like what sorry like for example my the Heaven and the Earth cannot contain me but the heart of the believer can contain me that's right yeah right we like people say weak of fabric never nevertheless there is another Hadith that perhaps people should consider that I think it's a beautiful teaching beautiful teaching yeah but there's and

those who haven't that the heavens and the Earth cannot contain me uh ex that but yet the heart of a Believer can and and though it might not be there is another Hadith which talks about the vessels of of of of of Allah and then the narration mentions and this is or at least Hass in the sense The Vessel of your lord is the heart of a person of the believer whose heart is soft so that is another narration supporting this way of thinking that it is the heart that can see the Divine do you have the Arabic yes yes I do just give me a second so just me give me a

second I had taken this Hadith and again my point of mentioning all these is to a show that thinking is not based on some hearsay or some philosophic it's based on the Quran or the so by the way this narration has been cons by by and theith is verely Allah has vessels among the people of the heart of the earth and the vessels of your Lord are the hearts of his righteous servants the most beloved of them to him are the softest and most tender of them and oh in the Arabic I'm sure yes I do I'll just send you the link as well so you can see yeah yeah yeah if you can

send it here I'll just open it up right until then there's a question once you send that I'll just read the question and um I'll add to that and I know we have you know there was so much we wanted I want to discuss but we have gone on for quite a a while today so we'll we'll kind of we'll take this and then these one two questions and then we'll wrap this but if permitting uh she I would love to then have you back for a second round where we can go through I know there were uh we want I want to discuss with

you there was a text a book that you'd um been going through an an ocean without a Shore uh there was a few other topics as well all related to the theme of Arabi that I wanted to discuss but sure if you send that link for now and I'll just bring up these uh uh one two questions so we've got here somebody has said um first of all there's a question I'll come back to this in a moment it says mysticism is not allowed in Islam now of course it is I mean anybody that's it's one of the you see something we have to understand is and and this is

something you know even admittedly I feel I have had to come to terms with in just in recent kind of times through this kind of Journey that I've been on in understanding that you see Islam that there are many you know many Pathways within Islam many kind of views many lenses Sometimes some of them we don't agree with but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist now I could say for example I don't agree with something

and and but uh what I would say is for example this is a view it is on trial this is why so many people disbelieve in it this is why some people do accept it now you can decide you know you at the end of the day you you might think well that makes sense to me that doesn't and sure maybe you don't decide but regardless for me to deny something that is an entire tradition of Islam like mysticism it's one of the the kind of backbone of the Sufi kind of tradition ofan within Islam which arguably is the

majority of the entire Muslim world exctly you know you went to yeah sorry sorry sorry if I may add to this this question what you've just to to kind of add to that you have actually if you look at the Hadith of jiel you see these different groups of Scholars kind of embracing certain aspects of this Hadith for example when we talk about the five pillars of Islam who is looking to the Thea they are managing that when it comes to the issue of Iman so first question with regarding Islam there are the five those are the F who explain to us how to pray all these things and the M who are authentic authenticating the Nars and all that but then you also have

the when it comes to the question of IM who's looking to that those are the but the third aspect that is those who are the sufis because they have recognized that in order to adore the Lord to adore the Lord Allah you need to you know worship Allah as if you see him how does that come through that comes through that understanding where you use your imaginal thinking so remember the whole religion just like a table if one if one leg of a table is removed the table can fall if these sufis had not focused Onan we would have lost a significant

aspect and that maybe the reason and we can see the symptom in the Contemporary World why is it that for example we're not able to navigate contemporary thinking and I'll tell you something within Sufi text you find answers to contemporary challenges for example regarding Consciousness now Consciousness is a problem and there are two types of that there's the heart problem conscious you'll find in the Sufi text about this you'll find a lot of things from an intellectual qu questions that have been raised by people like dareda that is one of the things that mu ab and I want to talk about Dara is saying that language is like you know it's simply uh um um what

do you call that it's simply uh not U either it can be a deterministic so language either leads to your world reality or it can be subjective and how takes a different approach it's not the F it's not those Scholars who are focused on the exoteric aspect can provide answer because and the reason that is the reason I kind of had I had to study all the that is because I had these existential questions I had these intellectual questions where the social sciences says that everything is subjective that all interpretations is subjective if that is the case where's the truth and that's how and that is why it's so important but sadly in the Muslim world this aspect is missing and

and and and before I think judging about all these things I think people need to recognize that as human beings there is so much to learn and the first thing that is really important is to recognize that you know every person has limit limitations in terms of the knowledge they have started with but God willing once they go forward God will Enlighten them but for that one has to be open to different views sure did you send that Arabic thing I'll on the private chat yeah I did on the private chat oh right uh right oh right you mean here in this discussion oh right okay sorry I was

looking all right okay so oh I see H okay let me just bring that up um okay put that over there and try the sharing um share screen okay so this is the um Hadith of the K most beloved of Hearts to Allah and um the Tex right so okay yeah it's quite

it's not appearing as large on my screen let me see if I can zoom that in yeah that might yeah that might be working actually um all right okay so you've got okay and Alani

says W okay sure so I just get that for you guys there that one of the vessels that you can see there the English translation as well let see if I can get that further there you go all right sharan I just wanted to get that for the um viewers there and then uh we'll this question and we'll kind of uh bring this to an end somebody had said here if I can find the question now that um all right somebody had asked about uh right mysticism I did respond

to that oh by the way oh I I I see here the person tried to do a followup they assumed mysticism meant rahan that's just a lack of your understanding of Arabic rahban is not mysticism rahia is is a kind of monastic asceticism it's not mysticism nothing to do with mysticism Ria is nothing to do with mysticism it's a kind of uh an extreme monast or monasticism or a kind of aesthetic monasticism that the Christians had that they were criticized

for in the Quran uh right okay the other question was somebody had said I'm trying to find it but I'll sum it up uh they had said that look they if I can ask you that they uh their own faith is centrally built upon the concept of fear of God as in they they could not be a believer without the concept of hell for them and they wanted me to ask you to you know that what you so to kind of to respond to that that if for example

uh if for example helden exist they could not believe that their Iman rests on I'm trying to find the exact wording because when I'm saying this aloud it sounds silly now that I'm saying it but when I read it maybe I'm mischaracterizing it but I think they wanted you to clarify did you mean that hell does not exist but you have already clarified you didn't say that and you didn't say that even Arabi meant that and we did clarify that Ari was speaking about um that that he does affirm

J the but he speaks of it being a kind of having a kind of uh sweetness and a almost like a kind of um a pleasure aspect to it for them as well the tormentas now yeah but you didn't deny the and he does speak of the finality of it so this this punishment whatever it is this torment doesn't last forever and and but that view is not just his view it's a view of the Sal it's a view of also and Jos amongst other people but

yep sorry carry on I do yeah I do want to mention this um now if a person based on sorry let found his question Okay so because I thought you know I'm sorry but I can only accept faith on the basis that I may go to hell if I don't can you ask the guest if that means I'm not a true mmin first of all it is Allah who decides who is a m number one number two right number two that is I was going to be surprised if you started to answer

that sh I was going to be like uh okay okay can you tell us if we're all can we all come on one by one and you can tell us I mean how a person believes you know fine but the having said that the in the path of Love they are seeking love of the Divine in fact you have the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam saying this inmi you have that the prophet Al says that that is David peace be upon himam saying oh Allah I ask you for your love and the love of those who love you and the Deeds that will bring me your love

oh Allah so think about this the word here I ask you your love that is at a higher stage everyone has their own personality some people may just worship not for the fear of Hellfire as much as for the sake of getting entry into Paradise but the sh of the highest level what they're saying is that to experience that that because insan is the reflection of the Divine names the believer is the mirror of the believer that is another now it doesn't mean it's wrong it's like you know an analogy can be given anyone who gets a c grade or dgr is a pass but

we know someone who has a a grade A+ has the highest grades but everyone has pass right so it's like that how a person takes his their own choice yeah so it is look just to clarify there are many paths you know as IM Malik when he was asked about the path that leads to God you know the path of God he said there are many parts that lead to God you know don't or in the Hadith you know you know something that was so vast you try to restrict it narrow it that there's many you know to some people they may be drawn to God from his fear

some Maybe by a sense of rules you know sometimes some people you find that they convert to Islam or they convert to religion and especially Islam in this day and age because they are people who in their day daily lives some people they have almost this OCD of rules and they need rules in their day-to-day lives on that level like they they they are nowadays the term is uh um neurod Divergent so they kind have kind of like on the autism spectrum now maybe some are more than others but they need like if they have a shopping bag they can't

just throw things in they they they they they'll completely derail if you throw things in a shop and they have to organize it in a bargain yeah and M the Quran clearly states Surah 5 verse 48 we have assigned a law and a path to each of you if God had so willed he would have made you one Community but he wanted to test you through that which he has given you so raise to do good yeah that that is beautiful yeah yeah so so you will find there will be look people that you know each to their own you will have find many paths all leading to Allah so there will be people who are you know they they for them that kind of

scrupulous this that they must be ruled to the letter tea everything must be black and white if it isn't I Collapse to some people it will just be fear they're draped in fear drowning in fear um now personally I wouldn't that that's not the path I would call people to but I recognize that there have you know that is a path that many people have you know is a well trodden path it is not one that I uh personally uh would be inclined to or call people to because I mean there will be a path after that people for the love

of paradise and reward but there is a higher path one of just Divine love of the Divine himself of Allah this gratitude to just God for for God you know this not just this kind of that his his as the verse of the Quran says it encompasses everything so now that's not to say there is no punishment that's not to say there is no torment that's not to say people won't get it tough that's not to say they won't be a reward but be there what they may you

know ultimately in comparison to everything Allah is exactly you know and so his wujud is the ultimate so you know that's not to say these things are not there or these things are not but to some people their eyes are on that that on Allah and that's the goal so that is a kind of higher way or a mode of of connecting with the Divine that's one that I would Advocate that's

one that uh I am enamored by and so that's not to say that look you know to somebody they might say like somebody said today this question oh if there's no concept of me being punished then I wouldn't believe in God I mean I find that very strange somewhat even masochistic to be honest but but that said sure you know whatever floats your boat and Allah you know you are the creation of God and Allah knows you better he knows you better than I or anybody else could know you or she could know you or anybody so sure you know if that's your bond with God that's your bond with God but

generally speaking I would say that we look to God not a not for kind of punishment discipline but we look to him through a lens of love because he is looking to us like that and I love that you said you kind of uh added to my understanding earlier on when you said that you know that that he loves them then consequently yes you see they love him that we love God because he loves us so that

is that it every single thing it is draped in his Mercy whether we know it or not I may not know this I may not see it but it is there so shukan um right once again uh it's been a beautiful conversation I was thinking actually i' said to Sheik you know what an hour an hour and a half of your time it's gone to two hours and we haven't even got through a fraction I think we just got through a third not even that maybe of what we wanted to talk about so guys may I may I add just one point and there something because if people are

listening please understand that it is the Divine Mercy that enables us to have a Sharia Islamic way that is very flexible that facilitates and that provides ease it is not out of some you know some mistake or error that we have ambiguity in our legal rulings it is actually a mercy and the prophet himself used to teach different aspects so the Hadith regarding the time for Z and ass one day he showed a different time the other day he showed a different time based on the length of the Shadow so if you want to follow Islam you have to recognize this is the beauty of Islam it allows you to sorry go ahead yeah yeah

and there is such ambiguity is sometimes of inestimable value you know we don't and I know that's a quote from Freud but it's actually true yeah it is of in inestimable value that we cannot under and that Hadith that you said of Hadith of jel that's the other famous Hadith of jel where the Salah is Led now in that if you read the the N it says it says he prayed when the shadow was of this length and the next day he prays when the shadow is of the other length exactly and so are interesting because then it appears contradictory

right because he says Salah uh when it's two Shadow you know everything twice sorry one Shadow and then but then it says yeah two Shadows now the the point is what does Salah here mean does sal as the other great highlights in his he says well Salah that because it's a verb the debate is do you speak of com of its initiation or its completion so if I said to you yesterday I ate uh uh

you know at 8:00 does it mean I began to eat or I finished eating now because at is a past tense verb meaning I ate so so he says when in thisi it says does it mean does it mean you know so he says it can mean both and this is the ambigu and this is why the Mal in the school of Medina we have the we have the the time of that is both and both and one of the

only MBS that has that as a consistent constant so yeah so just to say that look ambiguity is sometimes very uh fascinating yeah exactly and yeah no sorry go ahead so shuk no I was going to say shukran somebody was asking about and I didn't get it before but I just realized now uh they were asking right that thanks say Imam for and that about a Divine piano and somebody else had asked that does uh Dr say hammad Enjoy like playing the piano and I what a weird

question comment but then I just realized there's a piano in the background of that what is say that's just I that's just a picture backdrop I so wish I knew piano that's my regret that I don't know musical instruments and as there's rahma in the diversity of views you know that's a rahma mercy it is permissible According to some sh to play piano instruments and you know one thing and we'll just end on this you see Islam is about the expression the the the practice it's not about the so for

example they they could be a difference of opinion now you could disagree with it but what you believe you should practice so if a person says look I follow the view that music is Haram fine you know the have disagreed other said music is not Haram now if somebody else follows the other view now you it's not about you imposing your view it's about you following what you believe with devotion so you should not be listening because you believe that's how you worship Allah that's how you get closer to Allah so you should practice what you preach and

believe not about imposing your opinion on another Muslim who disagrees for example like you could tell a Muslim oh I think this is Haram they may say okay you know but I follow such and such mas and who say it's not Haram so fine that's a disagreement now you focus on you on your NS on your life on your yeah so just as a final point there right with that guys will'll wrap this up Allah bless you all it's been a beautiful uh conversation I've loved it I hope you guys have benefited from this and if anybody wants to reach out to

Sheikh uh say hammad they can do so usually via I think we've left it on the previous uh mind traps I'm not sure what was it an email or was it just saying it was an email but I think I'm not using that email anymore yeah just give that one the one you don't use but I do have another email I can just put it in private chat so I'll just put it here yeah sure and then I'll I'll I'll leave that in the uh you know people are more than welcome to reach out to uh she via that did you receive

it uh so I've received a yep I've received that sh should I just read it out you want me to just read it out oh no you can you can read it and post it as well however it is easier for you sure so it's just Dr say uh and then maybe you might want post it what I'll do I'll post it because the spelling will be slightly different so in any case anybody who wants to reach out to me you're more than welcome through Instagram uh if you want if you're interested in a onetoone perspective session uh you if you head over to patreon.com for w/ melm and you can book

through that you can also uh join our Discord group uh where we do have group discussions at least twice monthly and um and amongst other things other than that people Allah bless your journey uh you know and really this is that's what this truly is you know it is a journey on which along the way you know we're trying to discover Allah but firstly we you know along the way we discover ourselves even and that becomes ironically one way of connecting closer to the Lord you know whoever came to know himself or

herself came to know his or her Lord Allah bless you all and you know for you guys that were paying attention and once again she Allah bless you for joining us today I dearly appreciate soam alayum and Allah bless youum Asam take care everyone