Ustadha Tahera Ahmed | Scholarly women, Soft/Hard Islam & Spiritual abuse | MindTrap with Mufti #8

all right people of Ryan al hamdulillah wa kafa or salatu salam o allah al mustafa reliability not Allah Oh mummy hotel method will be a third a little medina dr. Farrer bad people for salam ala allah o allah wa salim become first and foremost let me just see that i can that people can hear what I'm saying that we are live just want to check that people if you can hear it loud and clear

cool just give me a shout right firstly off one liter liter I know some of you have been waiting but we have an esteemed guest with us tonight from across from across the pond people in this era of Kovac 19 let me just bring up the right before you there you see the esteemed guest estado para Ahmed who is a leading one of the leading amongst

the leading kora female rock throughout the world she is an Islamic scholar Attila was specialist somebody who does a lot of chaplain work and will speak a bit about that and a key activist on the Muslim scene especially within the United States and a role model for many who are out there I'm just bringing in our frie enormous alum or stir the Salam aleikum wa rahmatullah I love but a kettle right right so star the first of

all sugar and for taking out the time I know a lot of people have been kind of waiting let me just see somebody right okay sound is okay cool well sterber right just a bit of I not to kind of put you on the spot but a bit of a more slight some more details on your background work you're involved in for a lot of people who may not be familiar with the US scene or the Chaplaincy work there or the activism so yeah so what what exactly is it does it

actually is there any work involved or yeah a lot of time on out of silina along with Aliana see them come i do i do see them from ado about excite jazakallah hire most isa hubs for inviting me i think the last time that we met was about two years ago in birmingham we still kept the how that gap you know who still on the back then and yeah when you invited you know me to join this mind trap of yours i was in the beginning i was like oh man my feminist friends were like don't get on your show you know we might uh we need to get some of them on

me because you know I'm actually trying to understand what your definition of feminism is so I don't yeah maybe we'll get some more people live on on the show with us but yeah you know one of them was like who don't tell me is just getting on the show cuz you like the bird accent I was like so yeah and as long as you know the understanding that I have of what it means to be a chaplain

actually comes from excuse me comes Adina you know I was about to cough but if you cough and sneeze in this time everybody we're gonna I'm gonna lose your life people right away we're gonna immediately is blank out the screen I'm gonna have to spray sanitized that all across my monitor yeah so the worst Appling actually comes from Latin and it means to cloak someone in their time of need and so while it has its roots in crystallography or the idea that it's rooted in Christian theology over time I think in the monocular that we're

in the word is or the term has been used in the title for spiritual caregivers or pastoral caregivers here in the United States but as you know the UK actually was the first to start this idea of Muslim chaplain see you way before you know Muslims did here in the United States it actually started in the military here so that someone would Muslim would be able to do the funeral services for Muslim soldiers but it then spread to you know the present systems the hospitals and now it's on University campuses and all of the Ivy colleges or universities in the United States this

includes Harvard you know Stanford Duke Yale Northwestern where I work you know all of the premier institutions don't worry well we'll resume after the break with the janazah people in absentia my mom actually made some some dog spicy

dal Hyderabadi those of you that don't know Stata is also from Hyderabad we did have a guest on here earlier on dr. Marty it was from Hyderabad and here is another they were aka hydros as the slang term girls and very famous for their Brioni as I hear Hyderabadi biryani and so so it was some Heather about the spicy salad going down or star that was that what is that the cause of coal feed you know actually what it is is that hmm um they do something called

starter cow and um it's like you fry the doll I think all the head varieties know what I'm talking about and so it was when it steams it actually causes a lot of the air to have like like that that interesting small of the of the onion but anyway the point I'm trying to make is guys this is now we're gonna learn the secret recipe behind behind the head that our body cooking it's actually quite well renowned it apparently isn't it rather about the food or is that just well Heather body Mariani is supposed to

be you know it either that or you know I'm just getting another you know from some other people who are out there giving other people that's what this is about you haters you people can't take it can you that there's a female partier that's that's the problem so basically what a chaplain really does is primarily is provide pastoral care and it's really there for you know someone in their time of need we call it the Ministry of presence we have chaplains that are on call you know someone really needs crisis

supports or trauma support but really it's an opportunity for young people especially on college campuses to be able to talk to someone about God I mean like if you go to counseling centers right unless the client themselves wants to talk about the idea of faith or God that's not necessarily part of the healing process whereas with chaplains we are a fully confidential space we are actually one of the few places at least in the state of Illinois that you can come and discuss things and really like we take it to our grave service week

right so it's fully confidential and it's an opportunity to to grow in your own spiritual understanding of meaning and purpose so yeah basically what I do for a living is I listen to people complain about their lives not just kidding right we're just gonna bring in the the what is it the Dean of Northwestern hello sir right so right given the current climate I'll start though I mean has have a lot more people reached out or not necessarily it has it remained stagnant what what would you what are

you what is the current I know everything must be virtual and from home but what's what's the feel is it the same is there a lack of because everybody's at home or is there more rule yeah that's an excellent question you know subhanAllah there about eleven estimate yellow bus limits between eight to eleven million Muslims in the United States right so think about the U K we're talking about like two million two even if you say conservative numbers of about nine to ten million Muslims in the United States keep in mind we are like fifty times bigger than you all which is always like something kind of crazy I think it's interesting because when I

was there I remember like you know in two seconds you're in another country really right but a lot of the conversations here I think has been about wellness during this time because if you think about it this is collective grief literally people are going through the seven stages of grief set up you know when someone passes away or when it's someone experiences loss so we are now experiencing this is why they say some people are in the beginning we're in shock like as in terms of the seven stages of grief if you think about what those are some people were in denial like you had Americans who were like I'm not gonna cancel my Spring Break you know if I get Corona I get Corona and

I'm sure you saw footage of that and so I think part of it is that different people a different point have accepted the reality and are now trying to like figure out okay how do I you know try to figure out how to be with my family for example right and some people are like yeah I just stay home and for others it's not that easy right like people are like I don't want to go live with mom and dad or I you know I don't maybe some people don't even have that luxury or that privilege so the United States I think is unique in the sense that because there's already mush all on many Muslim institutions we have been able to

kind of really provide instance you know um support and assistance I think some of the amazing work that's being done by several institutions particularly those who are providing frontline support like an idea medical support are we talking about as well are we talking about just spiritual yeah both so I think some organizations are helping with food with water with shelter others are really thinking about how do we help with you know the mental health piece others are thinking about you know what how can we come together

and really provide the elderly assistance you know so all of that is happening hamdulillah okay and there are billions of people it's amazing all right okay I mean I there is definitely a perception and an understanding here that American Muslims by and large are you know much better structured and much more part and parcel of the American Society in contrast to British Muslims do you feel that as well

all in what sense in what time what do you think in terms of how at ease they are in where they live how in harmony and sync they are with their own societies how the widespread access of professional Muslims the kind of structures even the way you have this kind of chaplaincy it's not that they don't have chaplain sees in the UK they do but I'm just saying even other kind of activism and we just there's an

impression and a perception here that the Americans seem to be much more involved with the wider momentum of America and and more entangled in the fabric of American society than British Muslims who sometimes are a lot more insular they kind of like you know you've got a huge pockets of communities here but they're not so I mean there are some people obviously you will get people in Parliament and you'll get people like this but they by and large seem to be very an insular community I mean I don't know if you've noticed that you noticed that was that just our perception here yeah so like uh you know

I've been through the UK probably in the last few years a dozen time so I've had a pretty good exposure to different communities and one of the interesting things about the UK is that you all seem to have a lot of different tribes in different places and everybody pretty much sticks to their own message yeah which you know is not like unique just to the UK but one thing I think American Muslims have that you know in research suggests this as well that we have you know group of professionals who came

here post gulf war and then were able to have you know jobs that allowed them to be an associate advantage place and then they were able to build institutions um and really have the capacity to engage at a civic level in ways that perhaps you know it's still something that's in process you know overseas or over in the UK specifically we don't I'm not sure what you feel a part of that is to do with the migrant community that first came over absolutely so for example you

have third generation American Muslims who were born and raised here right who in some ways are absolutely you know at their root Muslim they recognize that being a Muslim is part and parcel of their identity and they will challenge American policy but they will still say yeah I'm an American Muslim right and they're comfortable doing that whereas my travels in the UK and again this is all that anecdotal so you know folks want to disagree that's totally up that's totally fine but my experience has been that there were there was a lot

of like ghettoization of like Muslims in the UK so you had little pockets of different kinds of Muslims and on one hand they would go to college and they'd have a seat professor but you know and she was wearing a miniskirt but then they'll come out and they'll be like everything else has to be gender segregated for them and so the the kind of polarity there are just kind of the paradox even was really interesting for me that this insistence to think about and what I called hardest on versus fastest on France which is something I've always wanted to kind of discuss with you which is this idea that it's the heart you know the hardest I'm the stricter you

are the more you know somehow Christine you it is or some somehow it's like the better version of Islam whereas if somebody is taking a position that may actually seem soft but it's actually what is the the muscle half or you know the reform of what needs to happen and I don't know maybe you'll disagree with me but I think what I've seen in the UK is you know hardest them and softest that like either you follow this or you follow that and like nothing in between you know I mean it's easier to convince people that something easy is a consequence of following desires that

kind of is people are easily persuaded by that notion like if I said to you you know do you want to pray 100 novel or or like let's say 100 raka art or do you just want to pray to and or do you want pray none you don't even have to pray this now it's easy to sell that position off as you know those are just deviants or those up even if you don't it don't say deviants but those are people who are just inclining towards the desires which are anti worship because people by nature are not inclined towards devotion and worship

I mean devotion maybe but not worship so I totally agree with you I know this is a topic you've raised and and I agree that there is this division between this kind of Puritanism this fundamentalism which is passed off as this is true islam because it has hardship in it and hardship seems to be the the validating factor for let's say the audience the spectators to make that judgment because they say to them you

decide which is the true Simha is it for example him sitting there in a t-shirt in this day and age you know he's wearing jeans he's doing this or is it look I'm struggling I've got this really long beard I'm having to go against the current culture I'm being treated like an outsider and I'm putting up with this and and at this stage it becomes like an an appeal to emotion and easily wins an argument with I think the lady that's why I think common people easily buy that argument that year they must be upon something because suffering somehow

equates to a validation that it's correct at I mean that's my my thoughts what would you would you feel would you feel that always that something yeah I mean I think most people understand that you know if some of it has to do with like their understanding of what is the purpose of religion right is it to make things hard for you or is it to make things easy for you and you notice alyssum says that in a hadith and you know this better than Edina you suck right that religion is supposed to be something that's easy now it doesn't mean that if we're supposed to be somehow prey from five times somebody

says go pray two times or I don't have to make will do any more I'm not saying that either but this idea that hard Islam or like the harder things are so you know an example of this is like when this whole thing started with coke in nineteen everyone was like oh well I'm still going to go to the Masjid and you know people arguing I had you you know one person tell me I'm a woman I can't make that decision and it's off ours on me anyway so I could keep my mouth you know shut about that you know and I not have this responsibility right like in a larger scale to think about whether I sit on the board of a metroid or whether I'm you know running aspects of ritual

life or when they're saying you're a woman that that's you know it's not an obligation on you is that be the part of the board or is that a separate issue that you know you're a woman let's not obligation what is that okay so you know so I was told that you should keep away from this conversation of whether or not Friday prayers is going to be held and this is not I'm not talking about you know any particular you know University I'm talking generally speaking of institutions in Chicago right that you should keep you know yourself away from this conversation because Jim is not found on you so therefore you need to keep you know

your mouth shut pretty much and I disagree with that because uh part of you know even if something is not far as obviously doesn't you know mean that a person can't have a conversation about the fact that all these men who will go and then they may be asymptomatic but then give it to their wives or their children or right like that's part of the conversation but I think what I found interesting is the men who were insisting to keep the message it open and again like my heart hurt right like with this idea that the messaging are closed but the idea that somehow you are now a weaker Muslim because you have

chose this option to pray at home they think that's what I'm talking about right and this idea of like where's the muscle hand where is this understanding you would find that in every other aspect of your life but when it comes to Dean yeah I think you're right I think some people look at it as in order to you know be a better Muslim you have to find the destructor version and stick to that because that's more pristine even if I can do it I'm gonna you know at least is how some people think I think an out of curiosity that and just to be clear you weren't obviously you're on the other end of arguing that Masjid should be shut is what was the outcome

of that I mean you were told that look listen you don't even really belong in this as part of this discourse how did that end that I spoke with you I mean what were you then or did you carry on or what what what happened or did you just come back with a machine gun being America typical American delete that part out seriously by the way I'm an archer so I

yeah I have a nickname for all my fault anyone who's following me right now they know it's cher knee you know if that means lioness anyway yeah so um of course not you know I mean I think this is a decision that's not gonna just impact men I mean it's we are collective so of course I I didn't you know back off I think continue to raise awareness and hamdulillah now I think in the United States there's a very different idea around this I mean most people are kind of now recognizing that we are supposed to have the most cases of Koba 19 right now so I think people are taking it a little bit more seriously but you would be surprised I mean I was on my walk today I gotta tell you all

this seriously I was on my walk today right my Heather body rant walk yeah I don't know that Stella has a Hyderabadi rant it's on insta stories usually she's going and she's having a rant in Hyderabad in the dialect people so you got to catch that as well but yeah and I've been doing it a little bit funny because you know I want to tell you about the bars canopy view karateka accent Konoha mela or cow and I am which a Punjabi broken jaw cutting it anyway so yeah you know I'm walking and everywhere they're signs that say like

stay home people right but you know of course our desi and Pakistani people we're always like you know kind of a little bit behind to understand these things there's a house and there's like 15 kids running around in the backyard the ball comes my way and I'm like I don't want to touch this ball you don't give it back to the kid anyway he gets it and I'm like are you guys all siblings like are you all like brothers and sisters and he's like no no this is my friend from school and this is the kid from across the street and this is my cousin from so and so I'm like wow so then you know they're somebody who's like a lady you know wearing her desi clothes or Pakistani clothes comes out and she's like stop talking to strangers

to them and I'm like no no no song like I'm I'm no stranger you know and she's like waalaikumsalam and I'm like he sub activity like are all 15 of these your kids you go I just wanted to nominate you for the woman of the decade award you know and you contributed to this oma quantitatively well she's basically telling me that she knows what I was trying to do right she knows that I'm asking her life you know what's going on over here why is there like a little mini secret black party happening because that happens all across the United States right

and she's like gee you put it funded I would submit it and I'm like wow masha'Allah and then I'm like you know she's really a really not a good idea and she's like Ocwen hippo and they want it you know she's like get off my property I'm like meh the sidewalks been you know I'm on the sidewalk it's okay I can say what I want to and yeah so kind of hot and she finally you know she's like I could go in here Bonilla I'm like I'm the neighbor and she's like I never seen you I'm like yeah it cuz you know for 15 years it's neither all your kids you know you've been very busy and he's like get off my property I'm gonna call I mean like TCAP con city just could be

Kyle Kinane you know call whoever you want to call but anyway the point is you know some people are still not taking it seriously right and I think part of we were we you and I are discussing more of this idea of like what could be you know one of these reasons and I think some of it has to do with people understanding the purpose and meaning of how religion is supposed to function in our lives right so for many of us I think we compartmentalize religion and it's like even if we're not able to follow the very pristine version of it there's this idea that there's an ideal that we have and I don't think there's anything wrong

with an idea of having a what I would call and actually want to give a shout out to Dad's Army apathy because I think originally this is his idea that there should be a meet oh man I think all my fellow manic yaksha know he's your brother right yeah reach out to me to get on this yeah absolutely so you know it said I'm a Cosima and I have been talking about this for some time and it's this idea that when it comes to hard or soft the Sun we need to think about what is the actual muscle ha in in the issue that you're dealing with right and for your own personal life you should have what

we call a private maximum that in your private life you try to do the best that you can when it comes to the rituals when it comes to following the Sunnah of a little awesome but in the public sphere or the public space space there should be a public minimum like a least common denominator that everybody could at least associate that right because if you keep raising the bar real high for people like no one's really gonna ever like if you ki keep making it higher and higher you're not going to be able to have like a normalized version of a son right and I also think that you know people who and I shared this with you before like ultra-orthodox II breathe perversion I think you know like if when

you start to practice Islam in its extreme form it actually I've experienced this you know some mothers does the mother says that I've been out and I know you wanted to talk to me a little bit about that too but this idea that you know I mean just just expanding on that for people who don't fully you know this this you termed it as you phrased it as ultra-orthodox he breeds perversion what what what do you mean by that in any examples coming to mind just for people to understand what is it that you're people because somebody may say what what is exactly how does that

manifest as some kind of perversion so again the this is my opinion this is my experience I don't know if anyone who's done a PhD on this or at least maybe there's some research would suggest this but my experience has been that you know people sometimes when someone projects that they are uber conservative or uber religious and so my experience of the mother said that I want to actually was here in West Chicago and while my teachers alhamdulillah and the idea of

traditional seek knowledge and traditional seeking I am actually for I think it has has enough you know Michele phenomenal impact on my own personal life did you did you go there off your own choice or your family put you in or and how old were you approximately at the time that's a good question so I actually went because 9/11 had occurred in my senior year of high school and I was you know I mean I don't know that I don't know if you know this about me basically I was an all-state athlete I know you like to build muscle but like bro I take totally and I believe that I

believe that people well sir there is an absolute sports athlete I've seen some I've seen some of those performances on your the clips absolutely honey and not just basketball isn't it also do is it MMA or wrestling or something like that as well as it would I mean I got some basic self-defense training you know I'm not I'm not there yet but I've been you know talking to you know I don't know if you know brother Eddie I want to give him a shout out he's the beach runs the Dean show he actually has the red civic gym which is considered a top MMA gym right here in Chicago so it's a martial arts kind of space and so inshallah hopefully when the colvett thing is over

learned some of that as well but anyway I basically was an athlete and you know to be honest like the same referee who had stopped the who had actually known me quite well and you know would encourage me and tell me there's recruiters out here to watch you play stop the basketball game at a minute 34 second lesson for the fourth quarter and I don't know if the UK people watched basketball holla but basically it's like their end of the game y'all and he he basically told me that you know number 33 you're in violation of the IHSA Illinois rules for uniform coin and conduct which means he was he was telling me I can't wear my hijab I can't

wear my sweats all right okay so so that experience right had a huge impact on me because as I was going to the locker room of parent walk down and he was like number 33 a shame they let you back in because they did let me back into the game because my coach argued for me but the locker rooms were silent everybody was silent and then my honors English teacher asked me one day to stay after class and he said tell her if you need to talk to someone I'm here for you and I thought Oh finally hummed unless someone wants to like be there for me me satara if your father beats you at home or if he forces you to wear that thing on your head their counselors here their social workers here we're all here for you so then he pulled out this

picture he took and it was of the polygon and if you remember they would sort of the poly man okay you know the iguana's fine Paul oh man oh the Taliban right sorry right okay came across as okay I thought you said something like pile even so I didn't understand what right okay yes and it was an image of a woman wearing a burka right and he was hitting her with a stick and he basically put that in front of me right and so imagine I'm sixteen seventeen years old and the juxtapositioning of that right is like he's basically in an

indirect way asking me to explain that right and he's like I read the Koran it says you know in chapter four verse 34 you can beat your wife but oh he was putting it on me right like he was just like hearing goal here answer this so I realized that I needed some answers and I wanted to get those answers from the people who looked in you know at least in an image right like you know with the kind of the Islamic poor sadaq right the Orthodox version so to speak even though we don't have that kind of in Islam like we don't have these labels yet so that's what I did I went to another site and I was about 17 years old I spent from 17

to about 22 so about five six years of my life give or take and that was an interesting experience I mean when I say ultra-orthodox II breathe perversion later they found out that the the person who was you know kind of running that Institute had been unfortunately uh you know he was actually doing things that he really shouldn't have and I personally didn't know about it when I was there but the fact is became a bit of a thing as well later on yeah yeah it was it was it was huge and I actually left that Institute before

all of this happened but it was very sad that at this idea constantly you know like I would be told I can go give public speech speeches I should wearing a fob all of that right and I absolutely adore my friends who were in the pod I think it's beautiful I mean right now hey I'm wearing that Bob when I go out for Kobe right all of God's part of God's plan I mean those the women who choose choose to do it I think it's absolutely amazing and awesome but like personally I do not choose to do that

but I think and as you know that you know I'm a mom oh honey I did not consider it something that's wedded actually they if you if you studied the hidayah right and I don't want to get into too much of the text here because I don't know doing magic on on the audience they're gonna be like whoa women can't understand fit go for it go for it well I want to stay on track here um the idea right back on because it's not an obligation according to the Hanafi nor

the Maliki mother it's not right but this idea that like you know women it's better for them to only stay at home and only do things that are associated with their with their you know own home life it's a woman chooses to do that you know in somebody now love with her that's beautiful but making that as the only aspect of her life that she should focus on is not I mean that's my that was my question is like that's not part of our tradition so that was definitely an experience that left you know left an impact spray on me and my development

and recognizing that while the traditional learning and the texts are something that we need to engage with it's it's also the form in which you're in which it happens right I don't know what you're even saying like what with your mother's experience like I mean mine generally was I suppose let me just say I'll be off there they they couldn't really try to you know they couldn't put you in there they didn't manage to change me successfully so I'm one of the examples of where it goes wrong they're like but this is how

you don't want to turn out you know the surveys a lot of sometimes a lot of people ask women especially girls who are interested in the Dean that they that there's many men who go and study you know they they get enroll in motherís sometimes travel abroad do these kind of things there ain't as many female kind of examples out there or maybe there are but they're not well-known so what was it very what was it just the same you felt as to your male counterparts or was it much more of a struggle going through it because people

are pretty familiar well you know the normal run-of-the-mill motherís that kind of lifestyle as as kind of boys and men go through it but what about for women I mean was it something you found that this was exceptionally difficult or not really it was just something which wasn't really so much of a struggle I mean what what was it like yeah so by the way after it did that meant there is a study I also went to Hartford seminary right and I did the Islamic study and studies and Chaplaincy program there I also traveled to Germany I was selected as you know one of the ten females to do a specialized program there when taozi

when which is also in Medina Sonora in Egypt when Gemma teller serve for the views is one of the the it is arguably amongst the three most ancient classic Muslim universities in the world so amidst Zaytuna and Korean yeah so I would say that the question is always like what are you gonna do with it right so I think for a Muslim men when they're doing this there's and goal like okay maybe I'm gonna become any mm of the Masjid maybe i'm gonna administer - you know i think for

a lot of Muslim women in this it's like okay well what is this gonna you know how is this going to impact me in the future if like I need to be the breadwinner am I gonna get a job you know like all of those kinds of questions so that can actually the uncertainty can cause a lot of anxiety and this is why I believe a lot of females and again this is my experience and drop out like most of my friends would be in a program and this is anywhere that I want they would be there for like one or two years and then they would drop out so part of this is that in order for us to produce these females I think we have to value female scholarship we have to put the women who

are already trained or are in training into these spaces and that's why I want to actually say just like a la jolla and it's not just because all you know you have to put a woman on you're putting a woman on this is a toner woman reporting on okay a lot but so I think it's important to do that because then it gives other Muslim women an opportunity to say okay here's something that I could look up to maybe or here's an opportunity for me oh it's chaplaincy something that I could do or is something that whatever it is that they can utilize there one Muslim women who started their own nonprofits I mean if you look at what's done see tomorrow for

example and if you're familiar with her and Roboto but you know for the viewers out there I want to give them a shout out as well you know Rebecca is a is an absolutely amazing circle of Muslim women and it's really led by stedy and t-tomorrow and she is you know you know Shia without a doubt you have somebody like you know Stephanie as Senate right here in Chicago who is a professor of Islamic Studies and runs the Islamic chaplain C program at American Islamic college and you know she's been training young Muslim women across the country and chaplaincy you know is a good friend of mine and we've been thinking about like how do we really create

opportunities for other Muslim women but in order to do that like you can't have like four you know guys on a panel and then just stick one Muslim woman on it and say hamdulillah it's changing in the United States I don't know what up with the UK like its are way behind way behind I mean the United States is it's in these matters I feel might you know they I don't know about light years but they are years ahead of the UK in in matters of like this and I think that it does come back to a bit of what you're saying earlier on about the kind of sectarianism the depth of sectarianism that is found here the kind of bashing

that goes on between groups the intra-group kind of dynamics is a lot more malicious I feel here and therefore it kind of projects a stronger grip and control whereas in the u.s. I feel even when people disagree they it's not that if it appears it may be deep but it appears that it's not that deep like they'll still sit together they'll go to conferences together you know that it's so there's a lot more tolerance i I feel I feel I mean I'm sure that you know human beings are human beings but I'm just saying that it feels like a lot

more harmony it sounds like I'm gonna have to be a chaplain to you you're are you trying to tell me something like are you getting so much like you know that's it we've just kept there's nobody not the not the not the seller fees not the sufis not the deal Bundy's not table really nobody accepts me nobody except you you must be doing something right

well maja no you know right I wanted to you know on the the alum a Lamia thing as as a woman who's trained in that you did manage to font you did actually follow that through into a career like you've mentioned you know because this was a great concern as it is for many this is a great concern from regardless of gender that even men think well what you know what will I do once I become an island what am I going to do in fact in the u.s.

it is still much more prosperous they here I think it's worse than slavery but what they pay these kind of Imams and you know when you pay peanuts and that's what you get in return but for women I feel this there's you know there isn't even a blip on the radar for the kind of scope of what they like here like if you became a female Imam or a female share car let's say you master like what would you do apart from maybe you set up your own private classes but beyond that there's you know it's I feel it is an uphill struggle but you manage to to

kind of get through that and work forward into chaplaincy didn't you but that's that's correct isn't it and in addition to that you have participated on the Islamic platform you've attended conferences you know you've mentioned that you've gone to these kind of scholars meetings these board meetings how was that being because it is the theme even incoming in the u.s. the female worldwide the female participation is is you know miniscule so how was that was it like what the hell is this woman doing yell a woman are you here to take the lunch order

what's it like horses I think you know actually I want to say that the at least the Muslim chaplains in Chicago right and some of the Emma Janna Altima and the Imams of Chicago and maybe it's because where you're from and your native to that space people actually like know you they recognize you they know your strength they know your weaknesses I think when there is a matter that they know that this that I would specialize in or that someone else would have an expertise in there is this sense of like recognition of that and I want to you know I want to give again I've been doing all these shoutouts

while I'm here right absolutely some of this I think has to do with the amount of knowledge that a person has because true students of knowledge when you engage with them it's very literally like you know subhanAllah someone has trained in whatever it is right whichever Medusa whichever curricula that they follow every whether it's their says Nizami or you know from Edina there is a sense of humility in those people especially the men that I've come across that if they have studied the Deen truly they've took their time to understand you know be the vastness as

well as the depth right of of the Islamic tradition there's a sense of humility as well as a sense of kind of okay let me hear this person out right without you know trying to so in places and spaces do I think where that's hat like if if there's true people of knowledge yes I've not only been accepted but been referred to but in other places where people you know have you know this kind of kind of knowledge works like well my shift said this and I've read this text and they'll point to one text that in those spaces yeah of

course I've not only been dismissed but and that's why when I think about hardest man I think about you know subhanAllah how that's actually impacting the way in which a person is able to establish their own relationship with Allah Tala like when I think about spiritual wellness and the tie to being able to practice Islam fully you know this this is a really important aspect for Muslims Muslims all over the world right now because you have all this time and all the space to put effort in and people are asking all the time like what's a

good way to learn it some and what's a good you know what are some lectures I should listen to and it goes back to the question us about like well what do women how do women find each other or what a woman do when it comes to this type of end seeking and I would say that I think a good place to start is to own your own relationship with a lotta right like what if you if you start thinking understand as more of something you must do out of a book it's bound to close once Co bit is over right Germany absolutely so if it's something

that allows for you to really deeply think about okay what does this matter why is it there another is you know people are spending some time and this is to the sisters who are listening especially there's a lot of wellness in meditation and what we do for Salah which comes from the Arabic root word of sila right to connect same thing as yoga right so yoke something is to connect the form that we use as well as the Quran that we use there was actually a neuroscientist who came to Northwestern about three years ago and he talked about and he wasn't even Muslim but he talked about how different world traditions use like mantras or meditation and when your tongue moved

and how that can release like serotonin in your body how it calms you brings the temperature down all of that right so all of these things are tools for us and so Muslim women especially when they were like when we recite to put on I know a lot of people are like almost a woman shouldn't even be reciting and publicly I personally do it because that's my way of encouraging other most famous because you constantly only hear men right and again all of this goes back to this conversation of you know what are ways from Muslim women to feel like once they come into this field what are their opportunities well if you don't see all their women doing these things there is no sense of kind of direction right is that so that's

something you've been doing in these conferences you've been participating it's something which you know on stage recitation of the Quran it's a special ISM of yours on a platform with many other let's say mache I'm Imams male-dominated was that I mean I I've heard some stories that at time people have you know been upset to the extent maybe they've left you know refused to participate or things like this has is that true or not really or how have you found this experience because I'm thinking something like that in the UK

UK still is not ready for things like this unfortunately unfortunately what I feel I would like you to do a bit of tell our on here by the way but I mean this question that what do you share you know those haters are gonna hate you even more are they the Angels that just they both just write bad deeds and they've teamed up think oh well this guy doesn't really have any good deeds I'll just help you out bro but I mean have you faced you know doing something like that on stage against that's pure counterculture isn't

it I mean what's yeah that's happened once actually but it didn't happen with um so I don't know if you know in 2013 I believe I became the first Muslim woman to recite the Quran at the 50th anniversary of ISNA like I inaugurated the whole you know show so to speak and oh you know several ulema were on stage and no one like ran off the stage let me tell you that - it's not the first time they heard a voice of a woman because somebody had asked as well that is the voice of a woman or of course it isn't

I mean people what kind of a ridiculous but some scholars have said and this come back to your question but but yeah focusing on the isne 50th inauguration well anyway afterwards there was a whole you know conversation about it even NPR which is our national public you know radio broadcasting did a whole like show on it I was like what's going on likewise of concern in the Muslim community and you know I'm not a person who would in terms of my own seeking of knowledge like if somebody takes a position right like what you just said is the voice of a woman outlaw when it

comes to it a certain type of singing or even recitation a friend like that's there for the position they're taking right but if you go to like Malaysia Indonesia Iran and Oliver they're right there taking a different position on that right and women and men recite publicly right Morocco that's another you know space so and again you know if brothers are getting like turned on by a Muslim woman reciting for you got some other problems raw seriously you know like like I'm serious so I think one time though I was giving

a lecture at a university and I think it was like down south somewhere in the United States and you know I was referring to the and there were a lot of non-muslims in the audience and I was sharing the verses about Mary and Jesus right and Mary - and I'm in a sanyasin I'm and you know and the the people who memorized but I noticed that followed me know that sometimes you gotta like you know you got to read the verses in order to remember how you know how it went so I started doing that and the mic gets cut off okay jus in recitation midpoint I'm like and a lot of the older adults you know a lot of American older adults

were like you know non-muslims especially we're like what's going on they couldn't hear me so you know afterwards I asked you know the MSA president I'm like hey I noticed like the mic got cut off you know and he said yeah because you didn't tell us that you were going to be reciting Quran oh wow they intentionally cut you out yeah and I was like woah he's like yeah and you know he went off about you know soulful uh not irony like you know not just how it all like he went off on all this kind of stuff so I just kind of I I listened

to him you know tombola like respectfully because I think that you know that's a that's something I always do and my question back to him was like what are you studying he took I'm premed like all Dacey's right so I said do you have any female teachers he's like yeah of course I'm like - they were hey Jess and he's like no they're not Muslim like do they wear like clothes that are reveal their you know I would all cording systems like yeah of course like do you look down the entire time when you're in class or like do you pay attention like you look at her and he

just stopped me where I was going with it right and I was like what were like this whole like I get it but you want to make this everything you want to do it you want to like somehow like make it the pristine form but like you realize you know the hypocrisy and what you're doing and what you're saying right because on one hand you want to prevent me from sharing the Kalam of Allah tada but on the other hand you have somehow found a you know I don't suffer your own self right so people make excuses for their the time they want to use soft Islam but somehow hold up everybody else

to the hardline right and that's that's what I have a problem with you know and again for your own life you want to do certain things okay but like you have to remember that when you're in a public understanding of Islam like there's this is what when I was talking about the private maximum and the public minimum idea yeah no absolutely I mean you have here the concept that women are participate in all social spaces they have access to every every place except the masajid except mosques I mean in fact to the extent that there was a joke about you know what's the difference

between I I think one of the those pages she did that what's the difference between women and covet that all covet can still get into the mush kids and it was because that's the level especially within the UK that the kind of segregation and prevention of women and prohibition of them entering the masajid so first of all I just want to say is that you know so you are an absolute role model and I think it's awesome that you've persisted on that track and remain steadfast and not being deterred by by this because it cuz that's all it simply takes some person I'm shocked to

hear that they actually cut out the mic I mean that is taking few apps that's taken a mick in another literal sense but that's just despicable behavior I mean I couldn't if they refused to invite you that you know it's just their biases and prejudices from the offset but whilst you're on stage to cut off the mic and say this is now Haram since you're gonna read the Quran all but you can do other things and you can listen to other people it's it's a ridiculous and I agree a perverted kind of perspective on the Dean no so I mean first of all so you

know absolute kudos to you for persisting with that you know particle of feek and I hope many people by the way miss especially many women that do ask do kind of take inspiration and if you are struggling on these matters do reach out to or starter on these on these issues so before there's other questions would you like to do some recitation I mean if you bargain you ain't gonna cut out the mic as soon as as soon as she starts people we're gonna cut out the mic and we're gonna go bah bah bah bah right so no I mean

absolutely absolutely if you'd well something short I guess um yeah by the time the recitation finishes the lockdown will be over as you see something just to show the and and out of curiosity before you begin is it something I know there's a lot of technicalities in that weed and is it something that is there a particular style that you're drawn to or is it just

generally your own kind of style or I know some people prefer that that we the tarteel the how about that kind of stuff is it some some your thoughts on that yeah I mean I'm sure some of the folks out there who are listening or some of the followers may have heard of something called Mohammed right so like our n is recited in different poems I actually when I recite I try my best to recite in a way that the average person can listen and so and not you know it's

hard to mimic something that's like if I go all out and do a shot of the lhasa style usually a little bit difficult for people to try to like sit there and apply to their daily life so you know I I mean I love like Helens I like it off you know I I tried not for my own self to try to change it up a little bit just so that like I'm enjoying there in cetacean but yeah for your viewers I could I mean I could just recite something short I think on today was Friday and you know in terms of Muslim wellness and in terms of mindfulness as

Muslims I think taking time out on Fridays and maybe this is too Sufi for you okay beliefs but you know they keep said being a lie you know I'm talking about the kind of much of subway speed more like real warriors you know so as you know and hadith solecism told us that when a Muslim or a believer sent followers which is a long so Allah says and Muhammad and the prophets of forum that there is an angel that delivers that to learn to him and then he responds to that salon except on your melodrama the Prophet said I myself

respond to that now without getting into the details of like well what does that actually mean I think what's profound is you know people ask all the time this is the question I always get like why do we do follow us and I always say you know when you want to ask somebody to make the offer you like you ask your mother or you ask your friends whoever why because you hope that their die is accepted with allah tala so every time we send follow us on this little law system he actually is making dassera and this is why for centuries many of the ulema like the regardless of what you know the background is their agreement this is phenomenal I think that I've never found a group of anima

disagree about the significance and importance of sending salawats unrest little also sunfish and the edge of the edge above making job is to start with silhouettes why because you are receiving the direct jaw of a fiddle law for you right that's that's profound that's amazing so the verse that I'd like to recite is the verse that commands us to do that ruben la mina sh-shaytani r-rajim

bismillahi r-rahmani r-rahim la manna it gets of who you faloona be yeah you and

levena are my new Luana he was ten Lima Lima [Music] [Music]

he was any milena welcome all who are being wrongfully honestly don't omit wanna see them try Middlebury good sent him so that was actually two different recitation styles out on a few um caught it century to the ear you could kind of kind of understand that but uh no that was amazing subhanAllah shouldn't for that I mean I think it is something that I I definitely want to encourage and I know this is your message as well as other that Jen to to build a

relationship with the Quran and it may be a different relationship for you know for each and all and it is an individual journey like like you're mentioning earlier on that look we're all on our own journey it's not you know I'm not walking your path you're not walking somebody else's path so I that's something we can't really stress enough so I mean children for that right coming to you you were speaking earlier on about your mentioning about I mean building on from your experiences about

how hard Islam soft Islam and we've we've seen some of the kind of difficulties you've you've experienced the well so that what do you feel is kind of more prevailing do you feel that there is a kind of prevalence of one over the other or is it kind of I don't know is it kind of seasonal or is it or is it does it vary between continent to continent are you seeing like maybe what are your thoughts on that well honestly you follow sit off in the stuffing you know I think ours is a middle path right like but I'm idle strains

you're seeing in the dynamics in the United States are you seeing people lean more in towards a kind of hard path or not really or that's a good question I mean the United States is you have to think like you know as a person in the UK maybe this is a little bit like you're gonna have to exercise this a little bit with me it's like think of like you know the UK and then think of like another 50 more like countries right literally like literally right or states that your provinces right so it's

hard for me to say well I only see soft the Sun or Lucy Hardison a lot of UK folks tell me my friends say oh are you Americans are very liberal compared to us and so liberal is often associated with this idea of like soft Sun right that many Americans are you know kind of they give in and they like kind of assimilate or that they don't really fight for their kind of Muslim identity which I don't believe it's true you know I think there are many Muslims who are really devout in their you know practice of Islam at least the ritual aspect

service thon um they may engage cynically in a way where some people believe all you shouldn't go into politics for example right like that that for some people is part of Sufism or whatnot so my ratings of it is that you'll find both you'll find kind of these circles of both but my friends from the UK and again maybe you know when they're the third eye looking in you know maybe they're so I could be biased and maybe they're they're more objective and that's uncertain that could be their experiences that they say well Americans tend to be or American Muslims tend to take more liberal

liberal positions on things but I wouldn't I wouldn't call it that I think that people American Muslims here are building institutions they're absolutely thinking about we know what does it mean to be Muslim you know trying to put that as part of their priority and how we engage even when we do so civically I mean isn't live liberal generally is a bit of a kind of like a dirty word in the United States I I don't think the UK necessarily sees liberal as the general broader UK and Europe I don't think we

perceive the term liberal to to be negative necessarily I know in in America liberal is like even in a political sense they can't stand this you know people that are liberals generally I mean is that does that also factor in because when people are saying soft or liberal Islam there's already a backdrop narrative that seems to have a disdain a dislike towards liberalism do you feel that or is that just our perspective as Brits I think it's specific to you all to be honest like I don't

yeah I mean the UK is again like I'm still I'm always still trying to figure it out like you know somehow no lies it's a very interesting place I mean you know I found that you know you have like certain groups that only like associate only with themselves as well right where it's like I would say in the United States many of our massages are built based on ethnic backgrounds which I think it's true somewhat of the UK as well but there is a lot of ideological Institute institutionalization in the UK whereas I think in the United States

it's more on like your ethnic background so you have Bangladeshis making their Masjid in the south suburbs of Chicago you have you know a lot of people from the Gulf so you have like the Arab community you have like more no they make kind of based but there is something that we here in the UK used to write we used to picture when it came to American Muslim societies and that was there was this kind of veneer this kind of like a shiny glossy I don't know like an appearance to it and allure to it I

feel that in the last few years you know a lot more or maybe such become apparent but a lot more kind of politics and and kind of nastiness all there's been scandals there's been many things there's been infighting that has kind of surfaced maybe not to the extent that people are calling each other cafes and stuff like they do in the UK but it's kind of being sorry I'm just hearing a kind of interference thing so do do you I mean

do you feel this as well or is this something we're sensing here in the UK so I'm thinking what your viewers are probably thinking right now like he's trying to like dance around the actual question so you want to ask rose go ahead you don't have to keep like you know toying around whatever it is it when I like what I'm trying to say there

was this okay if we backtracked let's say a decade there was this veneer the disappearance that the American Islam had to the UK people that look one it's very presentable which it still is but if that people are they generally nice they don't do much raj meet the amongst themselves these kind of like backstabbing or digs or or if they do it's very low-key under the radar recently I feel in the last few years there's been many kind of they have been many scandals there's been people distancing themselves from other people publicly there's been a lot of the kind

of dirty laundry has come out people have been kind of openly boycotting making posts against a lot of that British kind of nastiness that we used to see here you know it's only a matter of time she'll even okay well here is the car battery well you know we you know respect for for all but I think that there has been you're right you have to put it into context of what's also happening and if you kind of alluded to this earlier is that as a society what are some of the other conversations and nothing emerges as

Muslims but think of the larger context of society you know like if you have conversations around women's rights you have to hashtag me to movement the movement and so so I think that that's absolutely impacts and I mean my opinion it's actually pushed forward conversations that really do need to happen which you know I think some of the brothers especially who are viewing this need to like again you know we can go off on the conversation of like feminism or not or no whatever about I was doing follow-through to that but I want you're saying now you know I really

want some some people to understand that look part of the conversation you know is that you have to understand that many women you know feel that because there's a group of men whom ever it has been that have not where their voices have been continuously negated right these when when when women feel that way for a long time when they do get that opportunity and they're putting it forward some may disagree and say well what about this should the should are you right so this person what about you know the ability to be able to for this

person to the guilt you know they're that they're innocent before proven guilty on all of that conversation right and like is it okay to put a post against a person when you don't really even know what actually happened although those were things were coming out I think on one hand you had you know many Muslim women who felt like wow if we're talking about it like whether it was a particular scandal right or whether it was about you know there's no relation did did did you feel that these things were actually happening people were preying on victims they were like women you know the usual because in America a lot of it was to do with women and see

marriages and this kind of stuff now did did you feel that this was an issue generally or was this an anomaly was this something that is a one-off or this is actually a serious cause for concern that you know certain let's say people in positions of power or trust may be preying on vulnerable women do you feel that that is the case or as a chaplain I will tell you that yes right and this is not again you know specific to Northwestern but I cannot tell you right abou like bee or musty stead abou lace

the the number of women that I have personally very given pastoral care to who have been devastated by this and what this in turn does to them is there when their trust is broken over and over again they are unable then to have a proper relationship with another man right and so one man's destruction is now impairing another man from being able to have a long kind of longevity or in terms of relationship with with this woman so keep that in mind as well that this is like you know this is this was going to impact people so going back to your question of was this something disliked as a one-off thing or is this

something that's very prevalent absolutely I think the reason why you saw the kind of response that you saw from people of being like okay hold on I got to be real careful because you know this this is actually a tipping point for some people right if if they don't take a stand and say hey this cannot happen this should not happen then it's going to continue to cause on other issues in society that really shouldn't happen and you know I I want to push back on those people who say oh yeah those scholars who took a hard line you know against these other scholars we're just doing it because they don't want to lose their following that I want to lose

our female base I'd like to believe that that's not true I'd like to believe that I want to just put something in there I mean obviously we're in the UK here sometimes we don't get all of the facts and I like you know just real talk yeah like so I know there was a case recently this whole thing with a little back with Osama stars of sama Canon now with that leaf now obviously we're in the UK but from what I was hearing that there was a few women had come forward and said look during his when he was well now well star that star this obviously in

very poor health with the whole ALS thing and may Allah make things easy for his family and anybody who's suffering from any kind of illness I mean but in this particular case they had said well you know he exploited a position of power a position of can of trust that he had because he was married and obviously women that were coming to the mosque kind of saw him he was you know nice a handsome stud kind of guy good-looking so and he kind of used that to alert them but I mean there's a counter-argument here that did they not know I mean was that not something that they genuinely just found attractive and

were attracted to what was the actual I mean was he I mean what cuz the counter-argument is that these women willfully were doing what they were doing I mean and many of them even knew that he had a wife and children because he lived in the community or something so I was really curious about about this that I know the me to thing was overarching and a very powerful kind of current and anybody who questioned something they just kind of slammed to the side but as a distant remote viewer observer of all of this I felt that wait a minute these women were coming to that Masjid and I I heard

some of them weren't even must-have attendees they were never people that used to come to his classes they said well what are your thoughts on all of these so to be honest I don't know any of them personally I've never had a conversation so it's hard for me to comment on like what those details are but what I want to you know pause us and to start thinking about it while everyone has you know it's you know I what you're suggesting is that everyone has self responsibility right especially in a phlegm in terms of a bad if or a bad of a person right so um so while while I absolutely agree that every single person has self responsibility over their own actions

you have to remember that these cases of spiritual sexual predatory behavior are you you can't treat them in the same manner like okay you know somebody who's like seeking you know even like a second marriage or you know it's talking to their wife about this idea and you know there's the conversations happening and there's you know if you want to talk about doing it [ __ ] on it's not it's not the same thing like they're basically grooming these women right I'm taking it down that Avenue I'm saying that let's

say these Imams they're in it for sex that's all they are not interested in any kind of legitimate established family unit they're not thinking long-term they're not thinking we're gonna have loads of children and live together but so so you know some women that come across them think oh yeah but how does that what I'm trying to say is but men generally will be you know on they will be my question back to you is should we hold people of knowledge and people who are supposed to have a moral

compass of integrity should we hold them to a higher standard or not you see now I I would say that personally I would feel that yes in certain matters but I would ask what those matters were because I felt in some of these cases this is another thing this is what I'm talking about I felt that there was what what was happening was it was actually I mean this is an interpretation and I could be absolutely wrong here I'm sure people will think I am that it wasn't more than abuse it was actually a sense of rejection and rejection was then being translated as abuse because

rejection doesn't fly but abuse does fly so people are saying well actually I don't know if you trying to get me on like I'm going no no no no I mean you know but I would you know I don't know what you're trying to do here be trying to round me up and real talk like is it not the sense of rejection and it's not to say that guy isn't wrong you see what I'm trying to say is he is wrong for

what he is doing but I don't see like so for example right now I think I do acknowledge that so there's many of these people of positions Imams that will see some women I think oh yeah I'd love to kind of get on with her so they'll stop messaging or they'll stop communicating now but what I don't buy is this the counter part is so naive and vulnerable and like has no idea turns up at 2:00 a.m.

to a hotel room thinks I know we're just here maybe we're gonna go over Sahih al-bukhari or you know good to be or I know I know you're saying that but you have to remember that be so on one hand you know if if you recognize that when somebody is a sexual spiritual predator they literally grooming you over time and like you know it's when I what does that mean what does that mean women

these women who are but in a very vulnerable place taking women it's just a wedding I'm sorry why are they in a vulnerable place I'm just asking it's a it's a must do it why are they no no I please know so I'm not talking much a second like an actual physical space I'm talking about you know as in their lives it's bright so if a woman is in a and and this is a discipline so this not just the situation in any situation right and it could go even sometimes both ways right I want to recognize that too right so when you are in a position

that makes money as well as you know lots of what you're Gaming right from this idea of being that moral grounding for other people but at the same time you are now absolutely hypocritical and and destroying us you recognize that that that's wrong criteria but if you're asking but if you're asking well shouldn't these women you know if that's what your question is like well shouldn't these women also be held accountable or you know where is the sensibility of women in all of this I mean part of it is first recognizing that when as soon as you say that's all

you have to remember that so many women don't even come out and say anything because that's exactly the rhetoric that they hear it literally bars them from actually ever saying anything because it's what we call victim shaming or blaming right so it's like I'm not trying to say that critical thinking shouldn't it be applied in a conversation so that you can avoid things other couples in the future but you have to remember that certain language when you're when you've been through a traumatic experience or you've been through something where someone you believe personally has taken advantage of you soon as you start hearing things like oh but well I want to offer like what is that advantage that they've

taken what is that advantage like you say when somebody's taking advantage of you now I could understand if it was like let's say for example somebody comes to me you don't know what promises were made for these people you don't know what kind of oh yeah you know like ideas of what's gonna happen and the UH know you mainly study so so from a male from from your perspective hey it was all about you know just getting together well you don't know that for sure you don't know what else was shared with her I mean for a woman to put her in an emotional place like that right and we don't know the details of exactly what else happened you all are putting it from the perspective of especially I

think a lot of the you know things I've seen online like a lot of the bros are like ah what oh it's pretty sex like why couldn't you just know okay with that know what I do there must there and I don't know the cases particularly about the one we're talking about so ones I but generally it's not just about you know her you know it's just for fun right like a lot of the brothers who are dismissing these women are saying oh it was for fun so what did you lose you actually you know why are you crying well I guess what no that's not necessarily true I'm not saying you see what I'm trying to say is I'm definitely saying there was hurt I met I've never said and I've not said they were right in what they're doing

but I feel that people are translating hurt as abuse you see because when I feel hurt I feel wronged now I translate rond as a wrong but it's not always so so for example if my friend said to me look I don't want to hang out I don't want to be your friend he starts blanking me now I feel wronged now because I feel wronged I think he is wrong but objectively speaking it's his choice it's it's a free world you know he's not like wrong in any kind of sense like that what I'm trying to say is I do agree that a lot of these women that they do they are they find that

attractive so they embark on these things knowing that but when there's a sense of rejection and I'm saying the whole enterprise is wrong but when there's a sense of rejection do they not just say well it's easier to look if I say oh I was rejected people are gonna say well you were a fool if I say I was abused and groomed I'm gonna get the world of sympathy I mean is this not I mean I'm just being real just real oh you're already I mean look you're already assumed a whole bunch of things though like if you hear yourself out you literally assumed a bunch of things about these women right which again I think that's like how male psychology projects this stuff on women before they even have the

conversation it's like oh well you know some women they must really like that and so like when they put themselves in it and why are they crying about it later like you just literally projected how men or whoever it is that you'll be hanging out with brah is thinking about this and putting it on these women right that's not that's not cool I mean again I'm not by the way I'm not trying to say just to be clear I'm not trying to say there are no abuse cases I'm not trying to say that these people are right for trying to want to have sex with women these imams and whatever that you know that is not the platform it is utterly unacceptable I am clearly on point with

that what I'm trying to say is we know come let's face it human beings are much more complex and and conniving then then we appear to be sometimes now so just because a person says oh you know what I was so vulnerable because you know wow I had no idea that this like so I want to know what was the the advantage that they actually took like did they I could understand if he said if she said look I needed money as an example I needed money I went to this person he said I'll give you this if you perform this sexual act that's clearly understood everybody

can see how advantage is being taken how does it be taken here I want to understand this so again I don't when you're asking specifically about the situation I don't know who these know I don't know yeah well part of the problem with this is that the you know when you approach a situation with this idea that oh well you know this woman just wants attention or this woman is just doing this first of all I'll tell you right now the women it's upon a law that I have grown up with that I know and majority of the Muslims we're speaking specifically some of the women aren't

honor and our dignity are is that is something that we value like it is part of like schools our heritage it is part of our tradition and so you know and I thought calling these when really I'm not knowing it's actually quite you know when Muslim men when I hear this from Muslim men that all well you know these women they're just kind of you know the questions around these women I'll give you the example of the case wears on them under stuff that I was talking about earlier without naming you know the institution but instantly you know people started to blame the first woman that came out and they were like well

why was she in that place with him what was she doing with him and you know like all of these questions and they don't what there is a but there is a distinction there is a distinction I'm just sayin one with obviously where children are involved that's clearly on accepting their is no way that could ever be justified the other thing is there is a distinction in a proper a vertical scenario where a person for example you are in my Institute I've got you here you have to come here to do something I've got a lot of control here and you kind of intimidated because of factors but in a lot of in those situations it's very understandable at night they all see you as a chaplain that majority of the cases

that I have seen yes women have been compromised they are in that runner well position they are being taken advantage of and what is you have to remember just to expand what is this advantage that's being taken well as an example what is that that's being taken like how are they taking advantage like like because they're not forced to be in that space they can just leave and go home that's what you think we'll see that that's where all of your your misconceptions are is that oh well why shouldn't you just you know run out the door flee out the door like literally psychologically right psycho psycho law psychologists

have studied this you when you're in trauma mode like you sometimes just shut down even right you're not even able to respond right away and then some of the critique of these victims is oh well how come she couldn't you know remember or respond well actually your brain in these situations actually shuts down to the point where you're not even sometimes able to recollect the story and in just being in yeah none of these situations are that kind of brutal rape or even rape scenarios none of them are that so yeah that's like secret you know what subhanAllah you know when men say this I want them

to think about their own like and again I don't want to get all like you know this is tell me just about like how Street are women right like our daughters could be in this and you know subhanAllah like when our own family or god forbid our own you know sisters and brother or particularly mothers and sisters or wives are involved in it all these other kind of critical questions seem you know seem to not apply all of a sudden everyone's like you know what's the final wallet I want to find her the best process of healing and the process of healing all I'm trying to say is it doesn't start

with critique to the victim right we're taking look it's not about I'm not here to critique and in that sense I'm not trying to do victim blame I'm trying to be objective in saying that look with the certain scenarios we clearly understand like if I said look this is clearly abuse there's physical abuse you contact corporal like you've hit someone this verbal abuse ice-water the person there's things like in this case there would be rape or contact physical contact but these cases where they use words I took advantage what they're referring to is I came across this

person and he built a relationship with me this is what they're talking to I'm my correct what are they know oh so it's not just so you have to remember you're defining abuse and it depends on how you and art you're actually defining abuse as well right so part of this conversation and you know it's great because you're a Mufti and like I know you guys like especially Melody's loves dis definitions right so some of this has to do with actually like what is it what are we talking about right bottom line though I'm a definitely an advocate for absolutely the healing process right for women and I really believe that I

believe that but you have to remember that some of these things that you're saying could be very triggering for women who have experienced this or but it's a weird freedom of speech I wouldn't be alone know so it's not about like critical thinking and rational thought talking about as a spiritual caregiver as a pastor right I know that is your specialist and my and and and somebody who believes that in order to really resolve something because you're you're thinking from the perspective of

like fears right as a Musti I'm thinking from the perspective of I am a chaplain I need to be present and a presence of healing for this person and I know I'm telling you that one of the you may the worst thing they could do is to critique of and their time of need because what it does to them is actually really creates a further fear of even voicing what it is that they need to in order to prevent this from happening to other people right I agree 100% that look this is the

danger and this is why this is a very Oh what just happened there we've just I'm just connecting further back I hope no I may have been that her mobile phone that she was on as disconnected

hmm I hope we can still connect no I'll

stop hasn't done a runner it's right I think what may have happened is perhaps the mobile phone may have actually shut down let me just see if I can message

else right uh no no Oh hahaha you're back I thought it was your mobile battery can yes yes I can

no yeah no no no because I know you were on your mobile phone so yeah sorry I was trying to swipe the other issues that I was having but um see here yeah I can I can yep yep sorry about the some people that wouldn't run away from something and this isn't this is just do you know what they say this is just real talk it's not about being offensive it's just about I'm trying to echo the thoughts of

certain people who equally ask them in a mode of sincerity and genuineness like they're not trying to be malicious when they say these things like when I'm these kind of messages why don't what what the issue was is that when somebody claims victimhood when somebody says now that is a very sensitive issue because on one hand you don't want to you know you don't want to kind of scare away the victim or add insult to injury but on the other hand just like a claim does it have to be looked at that what is like

just feeling hurt because I accept hurt is wrong and bad they've been wronged but we are hurt in many ways like I'm hurt because my friend doesn't want to be my friend anymore but nobody would take that as a clay as a case of you know abuse like if my friend said you know I don't want to be your friend anymore so I refuse to take my calls and I would be hurt but that's not a case of abuse now I'm just saying that I feel that the people you know like you said so you have to remember that abuse is defined by who is a defined by is it assigned by you or the person who's facing the abuse right like that's part

of the concept to you it's objective experience is that what was well so if you know it's part of this is to try to say well so so let me ask you a question right um I've heard this like kind of conversation happening many times and I'm curious and especially for some of your followers is it because you know like what's the reason for this insistence questioning or like wanting to question the victims like I'm curious to write like social um what is it like I'm not interested I'm not interested in

questioning the victim I'm interested in the definition of what is constituting abuse the victim i I've got no interest in questioning of victims narrative what I'm saying is what is it this is why I was asking what is the thing that has been taken advantage of what is it like because if you're gonna say what it is is they are false promises like and wrong but I mean we're talking about we're talking about you know groping touching women in the way better not and then saying well you know what you are

you know not a minor and you came here and the other idea around this is like well what if consent right um and I know that you know the folks who are constantly you know in the victim blaming and shaming like world are constantly saying well you know was there consent was there not concerned and in the United States we have at a larger scale in terms of policy we're really clear about that right just to be clear that consent can be stopped at any point right now I'm not Department like months will start that just to be clear

in these cases the abuse being alleged is not about physicality the abuse being alleged is that I was taken advantage of over this primarily those clear you and I were not quote yeah they were so here is one of the issues I we'll say and maybe that's the only place I'll agree with you is a transparency part is that um we don't have a lot of information about these situations to be honest and a lot of time like a lot of these people who did say something like an institution came out and will they'll say they said whatever they said but then they weren't really transparent about like well what actually happened and to be honest

general public was actually I would say whichever side they were honest were more concerned about the fact that like okay well what is this actually all mean I will say that what I think really needs to happen when are so-called like you know the Mendez scholars of the Muslim world is there is and I don't know how many of your viewers will agree with me or not is that it's not just about these situations with public figures the yes they do have I believe they have a greater responsibility especially if they are claiming to have a certain level of offering a moral

compass for others and especially if they are religious or spiritual leaders but we don't have rules of engagement or interaction for the general Muslim population so a lot of young people you know who are whether they're doing online dating whether they're seeing each other whether they're you know like our staffs of the United States say something along the lines of like 60% of American Muslim women have you know sex in college or in premarital sex about 70 percent almost some men so and these numbers you know may range you know go

up and down but but but the fact is that it's out there right like people can hide from it and say oh the Muslims are not impacted by this so when there is when there when their relationships that are happening in in which there is more chance of that kind of abuse to happen the real question I had is like well where are those guidelines right for Muslim Muslims in general and and III agree I think these things nobody would disagree with and I think also that you know the physical touch molesting or groping I don't anybody would disagree in their right

mind maybe some people work just nutcases but I don't think anybody in their right mind would disagree with that being abuse so if a woman was here and somebody just groped her that is clear abuse uh the situations that were being discussed on social media and it's not about individuals but the situations that were being discussed was about spiritual abuse and what it was saying it was not about physical abuse it was saying that because these people have positions of trust that the public flocks to them and is drawn to them and

if they willfully engage both parties willfully engage in some kind of courtship like they start kind of texting and meeting up and having flirting and having a sexual dynamic and tension or whatever it doesn't matter how much really because the woman is necessarily being groomed and I just struggle to believe that because she's an adult there's no coercion there's no groping wasn't the issue the issue was because that's because your understanding of coercion right that's your understanding of what it means to

bring somebody into a place where you you know there's a certain level of Oh under ability all women all people because because I have I have seen cases where the scholar will justify whatever he's doing by saying oh well you know there's my table but you know there's different opinions on this and oh well you know like using their knowledge even to try to like say oh this is justified and misusing their very well positions of power not attractive to people they

certainly are are they not so I mean that doesn't mean that it should be taken for know what I mean by advantage of it no it's but once again what does taking advantage like if what I'm trying to say is its equal like it's equal it's understandable that these women in these cases or certain women in certain cases would be drawn to a perfect person in a position of power because power by its very nature is attractive yeah but how is that the woman's it's not just the men

would be drawn to beauty I mean is the man being groomed because the woman is beautiful I'm just saying that is it not just the issue with this that argument a belief is that when you say that in itself you're already saying that well a woman should you know a man shouldn't be blamed because I'm saying there should be equal responsibility because they see this is my point I'm saying both are wrong I'm said I'm not saying the man is okay I'm saying yes I in fact on the other day just yesterday we were speaking about men and I said I agree that men by nature this is all they they

were hardwired to chase now I agree the Imam was wrong or these kind of people in these positions of power they know that women will be drawn to them because of their position but I refuse to accept that just because they have a position of power the women become like the cognitive faculties shut off and they become these naive vulnerable people that I can't really think properly I can't think straight because oh my god you're so powerful come on I mean isn't that stretching the nerve so I think you're also painting it and like a completely you know I look dr.

Ingrid Manson has a really amazing program that she called she started it's called the haunama project I don't know if you've heard of it right it's focusing on this idea that you know why is it that we you have we have to protect women who have been according to them abused and as much as you can argue that if a person will feel like what is considered their you know their willful position into the

space you can you know you can sit there and critique these women but the truth is that you and I don't know exactly what happened in those particular situations number one right what I can we don't know why must the woman always be right just just asking why can't like if we don't know the facts why is it we automatically lean you know it's like in public if a man slaps a woman or a woman slaps a man everybody assumes the woman must have been right for slapping the man just basic social psychology whereas the man must have been an abuser for slapping a

woman now this is our basic kind of backdrop it's like a social narrative but well I call it understand okay so okay so if you're asking in general like what you know there there may be multiple right you know on reasons for that but I want you to understand that you may be perceiving right now that oh a woman is always like you know people are always gonna believe the woman actually that's not true the fact that you and I are even having this conversation is this constant push against the fact that when women who are expressing whatever it is that's

happened to them immediately immediately there's constant like oh well what were you doing there oh well how did that happen there's so but it's not a genuine equivalent like I'm in a hotel room shame people I don't know about what situation you're talking about right like I you keep going back to this like 2 a.m. hotel room somewhere I don't know what you know about what was what was going on I don't know why they keep telling me these but I get what you're trying to say that if flan said that every individual has a

responsibility right quickly qumran every single one every single person has the responsibility what I'm trying to express is that in the situations that you have asked me about in terms of some of these kind of like glorified people on you know these pedestals who had these women kind of you know coming for their circles and overtime and there are these like you know what I would call like spiritual predators like they literally would justify write whatever they were doing that was aesthetically not okay and I do believe that the women in these clay

cases were vulnerable right in terms of their knowledge base in terms of their understanding of what was actually happening and then also there's a psychological element really to consider in all of this now and in the end of it right by the way I don't know how we like sister to the topic very fast but this is very fast and the reason why I'm asking you these things of star there is because I can ask you and you know we can be just real and have this conversation and I feel these kind of conversations need to be hard because people are thinking them on all kinds on all sides of spectrums and this is genuine thought on the ground it's not this isn't something to kind of it's

nothing pretty sure so it's nothing obviously it's not like let's target somebody you-let's it's just real talk that these things do a group and I agree with you like what I push back on is that you have to remember that I know you're thinking oh it's it's like you know a hashtag world now and uh you know every time a case happens a woman's always right that's not the case that's why I'm telling you right no I don't I'm not saying that you know when I only actually like like there's always an equal response right so you have to remember when you devastate like even the heavy set up sort of system like so

if you keep devastating a people right you're gonna get a complete like almost like a you know a response that says absolute like I'm gonna stand here my stand firm and I'm not gonna back down and why and and the people on the front lines have to do that we're fighting and advocating for women's rights amount of the negligence as well as um you know I look absolutely and I feel first of all you know me a lot any woman any person any victim who's going to anything male law you know make things easy for them and their family but I easy I want her you mentioned something about spiritual abuse and I want to say that look

there's a certain vignette there's a certain uh narrative that we clearly recognized like let's say the B sub scenario that happens in the East India Pakistan you'll get certain beer subs that will sit there most of the people that come are women and the very kind of ignorant village folk or the uneducated and what they will do is say ok this is a magic thing come in my room I'm gonna get this better you know what to do this what you have to do for this spell to work is you have to kind of take your top off you have to do this you have to do this sometimes they've got all basically manipulating them abusing them because abusing their ignorance to this and just

really taking advantage now if you ask me what is being taken advantage of here I would say advantage of the actual naivety the ignorance they've gone there to get at RVs let's say some this kind of amulet and this person now I just want to contrast this let me just let me just present the scenario so this everybody can recognize and I we all agree that's wrong on the other scenario I also agree this Imam sub or these leaders are wrong but what's happening here is like people are on social media they are girls are chatting to them they're chatting girls people come to them so in some of these things people who hold talks for example girls come

they kind of like hey man whatever and these guys are chatting back and they've got phone numbers and they start flirting and they start getting on and the girl also finds that oh wow you know he's an imam and this is so amazing and maybe in her mind she's got a vision we could get married and you know we're gonna have a beautiful family and maybe he plays along with that thought maybe he does maybe doesn't I don't know now what happens is usually there's some intimacy there's probably you know it's a sexual thing at some point and then later on he's probably moved on to someone else now she says you know are thinking back about it I think I was abused now the question is well okay

what was the abuse so she says well he took advantage of me just simply being there I'm not quite sure like how like I see them as distinct like on one hand I see where you have these beer subs just touching women as they come into their rooms and doing things like as clear abuse on this hand where this flirtation and it's bi-directional it's both ways I feel both are culpable both are responsible so the reason I disagree with you is because one is promoting and has a stage of it like hey I am a compass of you know morality and he's

he's gaining his red brother butter his livelihood from that right and he's supposed to be somebody who is promoting ethical behavior but then he's actually not so I don't think that they're equal that's so that's that's one point the other is that some of these situations that you're talking about and we keep going back to you know those specific ones that that you said about like in the United States that have happened again I don't know the details of those situations but like the mother said that I went to like yeah even though the

girls were technically Islamic we should are invaluable right or she you know the wrong what packing them when you know doing Dalia with oil you know in utterly unacceptable I mean that is it is a crime and these people should be punished by law nobody that you know that this is my point just to clarify that didn't even enter the parameter of my discussion my discussion was this being a lot of scenarios a lot of cases we know you're saying give the path to the guy the Imam no no no no I'm talking

about the scenario just gaming right look the little flirtation going on whatever and whatever it led to right you're saying give the path you know to the Imam because no he's wrong what it he's wrong no but she's also wrong you see I don't buy this thing that she was like a lamb or a sheep just because she you know like lamb to a slaughter because he was this vicious person who played his magical number because it's it's unethical because they're in a position of supervision right so for example when when whenever you like as a chaplain right

I have find it right that a contract which says that I will never be able to have any kind of relationship with anyone who is considered under supervision you know who that is everyone that's like anyone and everyone at Northwestern okay why because anyone can come to me anyone can hold tests oral care hours with me that goes from the president down to like you know any student right like in terms of the the the hierarchy so to speak on to be administration so but all of these conditions these bylaws all honesty I

know they are developing these kind of what because where are those ethical guidelines maybe that's my just I know I just wanted to add this caveat that you see companies have these corporate world has these that you're not allowed to have relationships with people within that corporate realm but really this is an issue of productivity it's not an issue of ethics it's not that it's unethical it's because you're taking the boss's time he's paying you for it is time now you in essence is this not

about productivity and labor this is actually an unethical issue no they've made it they've made it about ethics but it's actually the is this not because in work there's nothing on it like if I worked in this department and I happen to have a girlfriend in that department ethically speaking that's not immoral the reason it's against the bylaws is because why would the boss be paying me to be messing about well I mean there's your reading of it that's your reading of it right I mean I don't know like that's your understanding of

it but I'm saying what I'm sharing with you is that many institutions are lining themselves like we have title 9 for example in this country we have many other kind of policies that are shared across the country and they're under the guidelines of social ethics their underlying we have many things in ethics which are today claimed to be ethical but the underlying factors are really just commercial it's because it makes money it's because in essence I look a lot of capitalism the freedoms that have come have just come as a reaction to Marx's

ok how does that not still apply then too so so what I'm trying to say is that many of the Muslim institutions like the Imams who are running it you know many of these centers oh you know they're literally even like the basic guidelines shed on that there should be you know a man and a woman shouldn't be alone completely right even those right rules are not being followed and he's supposed to be so person of knowledge right he's supposed to be the person who actually practices that more so that's absolutely I would hold him

more responsible okay and I agree with you by the by the way on that I think the Imam it is utterly unacceptable to be using your position where you meant to be teaching about Islam to be kind of trying to pull women I represent agree with that my only disagreement was in saying that those women that he did engage with or they did engage with and this is a become I mean there's been cases in the UK obviously big celebrity cases in the u.s.

everything you guys do everything at large you see you go out like so but I felt that a lot of those cases the women were just willfully participating but later on on the back of the me to kind of project they also started to claim abuse and say well actually you know when I think about it I was actually being groomed any think well you're a grown adult I mean how do you know you're you're you're you're assuming that you don't know if that happened at what point that happened right you're assuming that right there's a lot of but you're gonna see Vader not they're not G but you're equally assume that they know we're all assuming I'm

just saying so so when when we talk about this topic right and really actually you know it would be a good idea to talk to you know someone who specializes in the area of consent particularly in the United States and maybe even in the UK and truck and actually hone in on that concept right I feel like what you're what you're actually talking about is even [ __ ] on like what is consent at what point is content on shared in that relationship and so what I'm telling you is that in the United States consent stop the

minute she says or he says it's no right and so when but if the other person continues right that is a view that is define agree with that I think all of these say well why is she crying about it now right like that actually on you know I think it's like I understand that you're in agreement with that in most of these cases that I've seen the woman went let's say this hypothetical person when asked would not say during the courting process like when we were in a kind of

informal relationship that I was being forced and I at some point said no they wouldn't say this what they would say is in hindsight I feel now he had me brainwashed this is what they say so the groomed is like for an adult who casually walks into a center and cancer so you have to remember that there are experts of different kinds the psychologists tell us we got a respected psychologists right we're studying this right I'm from psychology I mean my backgrounds in psychology as well but I mean I told you you know that so when a

person takes a pause and needs to reflect because of whatever trauma that they suffered can't blame them for taking that night right it's actually part of the trauma right it's the impact of the trauma on the brain of like trying to reassess what actually happened and process what actually happened and what your thing is well look you just came out and you think that you just got you know abused well how did you think of that now and how did you like no just going to be there's a difference between let's say a woman was drunk or she was slightly under the influence of something or she

was let's say a woman was completely emotionally just like crying and doing all these things and somebody came and just it just kind of took advantage of that situation that's understandable and she said look in the morning let's say or a few hours later she said you know what what the hell this person just took advantage of a category and you can admit all right yeah I'm not dismissing that I'm saying in these scenarios these women do not claim that do ring that lets say this courting process lasted for six months or a year they do not claim during that process I used to say no one used to force itself in most of these things that I've come across they

don't claim that what they claim is at the end of it when he moved on to somebody yes not not not in the case of acting all right in the cases that I have seen that's not true right they don't claim they don't you know I'm a Canon or there was no stars of Simon Cameron oh there was a few cases I mean even here in the UK and I'm done condemning their action at what you're talking about nominally Hahn for example right wanna leak on the same thing I'm condemning his actions I'm condemning

these people for doing that but what I'm saying is that you know what's being said about I was brainwashed I just fought don't you think that's a bit of a far-fetched like will you really brainwashed like that's a bit like come on that's so you have to okay when a person is expressing themselves right validating their feelings is because that's where they're coming from you can't dictate what the other person is going to say they're gonna share with you what they believe have it happened to them and I think that to honor that

is part of the healing process as much as you as much as you're saying well you know how could you behave how could you have been bearing watched all of that like it you're not in that situation so your brain is not actually going to respond in a similar way like my assumption here that there's an assumption that the man's brain is a hundred percent in control and the woman's brain is not in control how do we objectively various so in this particular cases that you're talking about where there was a flirtation but

there was no there was actually no rape right the point I'm in all of this you know in cases here by the way as well in the UK there's been several cases of the and I agree that this has become a bit of a universal phenomenon so it's not it's not just restricted to let's say nominally harness ossama hassanein and and by the way I'm being very clear I'm not justifying their actions and I think I agree with you that if a person is on the pulpit then he should honor the pulpit of the prophet sallallaahu alayhi assalam and he shouldn't miss use that to kind of I mean I you know when like if a person thinks look I want to

do something he should just do that off his own back you shouldn't use Islam as a tool to love people or let's say to be that kind of oh well I agree with that that's why I do hold him to blame but I simul taneous ly find it difficult to this disclaim that and many people that look the magical charm was so powerful that I was incapable of seeing it's not it's not just it's not that that's all that they're saying right there is a lot there's a lot that goes into this in terms of the the perpetual lies the

insistence feed the you know you know trying to miss Luxx cue there the knowledge fate piece about this there's a lot more that goes into this and at the at the end of it right all I'm trying to say is what would be like what what is the overall community need to learn from all of this right so it's one cases of the people who are in the pulpit so to speak right which I think you we all agree with it's like like stop diffusing that right I think we agree with opposite but I think the bigger question that I even you know I'm curious like if if yours are also thinking about this which

is what are what is the ethical or what are the ethical guidelines for relationships within the Islamic tradition right and or are we you know using a Western model where like nobody owes each other anything really right like where you can engage with someone in some kind of even physical you know like if you're applying those if that's the construct that you're working in then you have to kind of like back up and recognize that within the Islamic tradition we have parameters right put in place goals and and when

when those parameters that those parameters actually apply to everyone not just you know somebody who's like so if a brother and you know like an average Muslim guy and an average of some girl are having a relationship the heart is still attached right like you put yourself into that place but many are you know people who go through these relationships where there's a breakup it's like oh the other person will say I don't owe you anything you know at the end of it and you know what I actually have a problem with is the UM the way in which so many young

Muslims are not able to truly like find meaning and love like in a relationship because of the way in which it kind of been reduced right through this idea of like even like casual sex right and so I think what for me what comes out of all of this is starting to think about like okay like how do we talk top in general about sex and relationship because we don't write like every time huge to me every time these things happen I think part of the reason why everyone's like

oh my gosh like hashtag this hashtag that why because or you know they're talking about all these people you know cases I think people need to like reflect that number one we need to give victims whatever you know healing that they need and this is again you could differ with me mostly a bullet my opinion on this is that when someone who is going through whatever trauma that they are or whatever crisis that they are like my responsibility of the chaplain is to be present and I just want to be clear as well for the listeners because somebody had said something as there was a comment as well about look the conversation being

amazing although they feel that this kind of a conversation for for me is just something that would get me into trouble now I personally just to be clear that look I I don't really care what kind of controversies my discussions bring me I'm already as controversial as they get it as anybody can tell I'm sure even a star that was probably warned a hundred times before coming online with me but my point here was not in any way and I cannot keep saying these it's not to take away from the suffering of those who claim trauma or anything like that but it's to realign objectivity to an a claim of

criminality that's all what I'm trying to say is criminality when we make claims of morality and not about feeling hurt look like for example I could go to the shop and I can't get like right now there was panic buying and everything I could be feeling incredibly hurt feeling hurt is true it's genuine I'm going through I'm experiencing it and you can't deny me that right that's true but at the same time does that mean that there is an element of for example immorality or where does the responsibility lies sometimes we take actions which cause us hurt as well and

I just feel that the problem is we're in a society where you see if we ask genuine questions we you know like earlier one you said about victim shaming I feel that men it's so difficult for them in this current Western culture to kind of be able to ask these questions in a in just a genuine conversation because they will be shamed as like oh you know how do you kind of like you know this is the this is toxic kalenna t-that's what it is and this kind of stuff so I feel that what this is doing is it's leading a lot of men because they can't ask them they're

internalizing and this then turns unfortunately either into a kind of imploding depression or into a rage and I feel the best way is dialog you know it's just to be able to ask and and this is why I do believe you know amongst many people father yes you are an excellent person to be having this dialogue with because one you deal with trauma to your your specialism is spirituality and three you are also involved in the religious scene you're you're actually you network posit you've got an amazing kind of like a working relationship with many of these Imams you know I know I think mostly Kimani

you work very well with them and so many other people who we both know that you work very well with and and there's so many so this is the ideal place to really have these these kind of talks and it's not to I know some people if they watch this and they feel you know is mostly just going in harsh against I'm not I'm just trying to ask the questions that many people are too afraid to ask and I just want just trying to be real that's all with them but I I do and I I feel that any person who is suffering you know they what you're doing is that that is a gem of a service really because what somebody is

it subjectively experiencing they need a healing process but I just the issue was of culpability and responsibility that's all that yeah so you know this is also systemic right like I mean part of the the conversation where people so I get what you're saying that there are genuine you know men who have these like questions that they want to ask and they want to have this conversation and they want to dialogue about this but I what I often hear from men is a very like you

know just an immediate critique of like oh well why couldn't she leave the room why couldn't she do this or what could and it's and what I'm trying to say is that literally you know if they're genuinely interested I think it's important to first trying to understand like you know how do you support a person who is going through that trauma first right and one of those things is deeply understanding their situation in many of these cases we have not had that opportunity so I want to recognize that you know there's lots of cases that were broadcasted on social media but there was no transparency so in essence people were left with a lot of questions right of

like okay so cuz you like you said like you know many Muslim men who would hear about this would say yeah that's not okay like you know if there was abuse that's not okay like it's not only is a common sense it would it raises a sense of urgency that this is absolutely not okay you know when when when you see somebody who's poor on the street right and they're asking for money and you say well here like most people you know would not question like why is this person here I mean if you're if you're a

genuine person right you give them money unless of course you know that there is a systemic you know you know somebody's actually putting them on you know there's parts of the world that it's actually better to like over fulsome said like give the person an axe right so that they can make a living for themselves and not just you know the fish for the day so to speak but you have to remember that some of this is you know systemic so like when a person when a person is seeking help you know it's trying to tell them and shame them and saying like you know why do you want why do you want this money right now is I mean I'm just trying to give you one

possible example of trying to put this into some kind of even though I mean I think they're kind of you know they're not exactly parallels but it's this idea that a person who is vulnerable has you know even like their psychological capacity to be able to share what's actually happened in the way in which even like some physicians are looking in New York surgeons who are looking at brain patterns right of women who have been in a relationship where she no longer consented but there was a push for it from you know the male side like what does that do to her ability to then like

even recollect herself right so all of that I think needs to be taken care you know taken into consideration as you're having this conversation I mean I was so I think okay no I know that like I don't know who else's has joined us I want to be able to you know I was just going to make a suggestion that I actually think one of the future the waste a kind of remedy to this solution is to get much more a greater female participation in these sacred spaces is to have more women in positions of power to balance L

so I think like if we had more people like you study if we had more if we had more women that sat on the board of masajid that sat in first of all from the very least they participated in the Masjid space to every dimension to the teaching if they want to teach I mean there's men and women available that if they want to do counseling this should be men and women available to deliver that if in the board even the president of a Masjid you know they alternate what why can't a woman be a president of a Masjid and I feel that that would at least liberate it would at least because I do agree with you the problem is you

do have a lot of this kind of these culturalism we especially from back home you know like to safeguard the man people will just do you know like I'll just shut up you know it's the man is the man at the end of the day and it's kind of that approach especially in certain parts of the world so I I feel ensure like if this is promoted if more women do kind of qualify they do and then space is provided for them as well not they're not just shunned like you know they could be training but then nobody's probably giving them a space I mean if they if they are allowed onto these committees they are allowed then hopefully insha'Allah you know less and

less of this kind of the you know these kind of catastrophes can happen in Shambala I mean that's I hope I hope I mean what's in the future but that's the hope I have I don't know what it's like in the UK but like here humbly like it's definitely more you know growing more Muslim women are masha'Allah involved they're actually at leadership positions and many of these organizations and getting things done you know at al-madinah I mean you know much more functional are getting things done I feel that yeah I mean I mean I don't know about you know the panel law the

rest of the UK lays you know there are sort of people watching this but you know like you guys are like you know like vampires you guys come out and like the night time you know I'm alive we do all this we rise they say we alive in the in the night time that's what my experience has gonna have a lot of the the Muslims in the UK come out it but you know in the dark really out of curiosity I mean we'll wrap this up I know you've been on we've taken up so much of your time I know you've got a you've got probably million other things to get on with and probably so many people try to reach you as well especially since this is on your phone I

mean just as a curiosity I know some people were asking so what what is since I'm somebody so deemed as controversial anyway what were some of the key concerns that people had when you told them you're coming on online with me was there any or not really there was none or what I'm curious to learn well I mean I'll be honest like you know I think you know someone said like oh he's gonna get it's gonna get controversial you know you're aware of that and I was like you know what comes Idina like you

know I I believe that we have to continue to be in conversation right like even if it's a topic that may be of discomfort you know and so I agree with you on that part that like we have to be able to also listen because that like when you start to shut the other person right completely you lose the ability to understand like what's actually brewing under even if you even if you believe that it's wrong it's something that's you know you know something that's but I don't believe I would want to promote

that but at the same time I think it's important to kind of continue to gauge like what's actually happening with what are people thinking what are people feeling right I think that's important so yeah that was one that you know may be controversial I think another the controversial he's not single and I was like I mean but to be fair you guys haven't got it that bad the whole sectarianism thing hunter delight hasn't brewed to that level in the US I hope he

kind of dies a death in the UK as well because it is it's nothing but nastiness all this kind of sectarianism and people you know not oh my god that person's a deviant you know don't talk to that person and don't talk to this person and then you know for God's sake I mean if we can't talk to people as grown adults what can we do but people here have definitely benefited from you they've enjoyed your company I have I mean I it's been incredible having this conversation because I you know I feel that it's difficult finding real genuine people that you can be real with and at the same time you know even if something

you know there's a pickle you know something is a bit controversial but you you know you can just discuss it like like grown adults so I'm I really appreciate you having this conversation with us or star that if anybody does want to reach out to us whether she is on Facebook you're on Facebook as Pajaro ahmed are you what are the platforms or would you advise people to reach out to you wanna yeah I I'm on Facebook social media and Instagram as the tawheed akhmad because there's a bunch of other apparently pop back meds on but yeah on only people yeah so you could totally

reach out to me again this was an interesting conversation I really appreciate it and I know that especially during kovin 19 I'm sure many conversations have been specifically about this viral war or the war against the virus so this was kind of you know something that took a break from that conversation to be able to talk about something that I think it has been on the minds of a lot of people I definitely want to you know I mean there is a lot more the whole thing about you know women wishing to study and then what should they do your experiences what kind of career paths they could

take the importance of the Quran of Halawa the spiritual journey I mean and then obviously these things as well of what does what what does this mean what was this pallava but it's been amazing shukran once again people you guys have been awesome hanging out all this time right really waiting up till being vampires like me so guys much no it's gonna be 5 a.m.

guys I'm gonna put up my I'm gonna put up my page do you remember to Like share subscribe if you've got any issues questions to reach out to me likewise to those that take very good care of yourselves Salaam alaikum what Ahmed Al Leiter ila what better care to people