Dr Shehzad Saleem | Women, Islam & Worrying Interpretations | MindTrap#67 | Mufti Abu Layth

and youtube so right okay it's seems to be seems to have gone live okay let's check the and we are live okay and the sound is i could see clear commenting the sound is fine okay much appreciated chicken

foreign to another mine trap all right and we've got some incredible and very and absolutely necessary discussions to take underway today bringing up on the screen before you our beloved guest once again you can see dr shazad saleem uh who we've had on the show before um much loved and absolutely sought after i'm

our guest from who's currently in the united states from pakistan associated with institute and a specialist in quran studies so salaam alaikum dr sab welcome back and thank you for uh taking the time to be with us welcome it's always a pleasure and an honor to be with you and on your show shukran um once i get people i'd just like to say that we have an incredible

discussion before us insha allah ah i thought right i can see some of you just tuning in shukran i appreciate it do you spread the love dr sab um for our guests tonight uh we've we've you've chosen and i'm really deeply grateful that you've chosen the topic of the umbrella topic of women and islam and all the the kind of subsidiary issues that that follow from that that sometimes are so problematized or challenging in the face of

of muslims today so yeah i mean talk to us a bit about this i mean this is obviously such an important topic women and islam um but your perspective on it i know you're in the states right now and you're presenting on this topic as well and you're you're lecturing and really dedicating your time to it so yeah i mean how is it just the fact that there's there's a need or are there other reasons that have led to this election oh well first of all i think that there are a number of misconceptions amongst muslims i would say and of course

non-muslims as well about the view of uh women or the view of the quran about women and one of the reasons or maybe more than one reason that i can point out here is that at times uh culture and religion have been mixed up in in many cases in some other instances uh the interpretation of certain quranic verses are questionable and in still some other cases we find certain hadees or ahadis which have a role to play of course but in the same time uh many of them have been interpreted in a way that needs to be re-examined and re-evaluated because

as you can see that ahadees and the quran they are texts and basically every text needs needs an interpretation and needs an understanding and at times these understandings are not consistent with the text themselves and they need to be revised and refreshed but as i said one of the major things also is that in our background culture religion history a lot of folklore a lot of personal preferences they do go into our perceptions and over the years women have been not only i mean viewed in this way uh in the quranic perspective or in the islamic perspective uh even the world over so

this in the the whole movement of feminism actually as you would know had started because of these rights not being granted to women a lot of those rights have are still i mean under discussion but uh mary wilson croft as famously said when she in the 18th century started off this movement of feminism it was more of a result of the oppression that they were suffering at the hands of the society in general so in certain circumstances i have seen that what uh what exactly what the the views that have been presented have uh been reinforced by some of our notions of culture and in particular i would talk about the

indo-pakistan culture the eastern culture in which i mean it seems as if it reinforces some of the understandings of our scholars in which if i use this rather harsh term uh that women are sick and great human beings so it does seem that the way women have been presented it is as if they are second grade human beings and they are i mean they have been created to serve men or to rare the next generation they don't have any life of their own their own professional life their own ability to do something is always compromised or not even discussed their own intellect is also brought to

question so i think that it's this understanding that women are secondary human beings or maybe uh i mean not as equal in rights as well as in uh as human dignity as as men are which has caused a lot of confusion and this confusion is extended into islamic literacy literature as well yeah do you find that a lot of your students your female students your female listeners these are things that they often are troubled by is this something of recurring um [Music] i don't know if a challenge that people present is indeed it is indeed it is and that i

mean there are issues like for example we have narratives which speak about the fact that women are naked for example or that the fact that women cannot refuse intimacy to once the husband asks them or they cannot fast without his permission of fasting something which is a very personal thing or things like wife beating and then things like slavery concubinage things like marrying more than one wife and then of course the issue of hijab whether their role is in the house or outside the house uh can they be professionals or not uh child rights another issue

and the edge of aisha's also called into question as a result of that and i mean there are so many things which have in our in our own area we have honor killings uh and they are there the most disgusting and heinous thing that can happen against women and uh the discontinues then we have objections at times on the lives life of the prophet himself for example his wives he married mo of course more than four wives he had nine uh wives and then the fact that he also had a slave maiden and then that he married one of his wife was the the uh wife of his uh adopted child as i had been harissa

and the fact that uh i mean so you see these are uh i mean think things come in in in a lot of clusters in which at times the life of the prophet is is brought to question at times certain injunctions from the quran are brought into question and time certain ahadi's interpretation is brought into question but all in all it does seem that i mean there has been something amiss and i could i can identify that with the misunderstandings cultural leanings and a lot of things to do with one's own mental perceptions and those preconceived notions and mental perceptions have like in being inserted like you read them in the book of god

you have whatever you have in your mind you start reading uh your own mind uh in the quran yeah so many just wow as you were listing out the um the sub topics each one is so it's kind of attention grabbing and it brings us straight to because it's wow this is so you know this is so important to talk about and then you've raised another wow that's so important to talk about that let's navigate through some of these where would you somebody who's now dealing with these current issues who's being asked and you're presenting also

speaking on them where would you like to begin this journey tonight what discussion should we i think let's open let's open up with one and navigate through some of these uh maybe one that's being brought up often to your attention or something that's uh more pressing than others i think that one very common perception uh is that women are inferior in intellect to men and although this is not at all hinted anywhere in the quran directly but there is a very strong narrative from the

prophet and that narrative actually has been interpreted to mean that women are deficient in intellect and they are less intellectually capable uh with regard to men and i think that particular narrative has uh resounded with a lot of men who think that they can use this narrative to tell women that look there was not a single prophet of god who was a woman uh you don't find many women who are outstanding uh achievers in in in science maybe or in other areas and then look what the prophet himself has said that women are naked

as the narrative goes which which translated typically would mean that they are deficient in their religion when they are i mean the two are coupled together i mean there were four for the viewers uh in case you're not familiar with that there's a hadith which is popularized and it is uh um it is in the books that is transmitted from i think um four at least four companions

um and so it it mentions that the it's to do with an aid incident although there's not not much clarity what either is and and the prophet then seems to go towards in this narration allegedly he he goes to speak to the women and one popular narration i think which is in this in the sahih it's uh from bilal it's just about charity asking for sadaqah stuff but in these narrations it it goes on to say that the the prophet says that you women should give charity

you should do these things because i've seen you to be the the most of the inhabitants of the hellfire and they say well you know why is that and so the prophet says allegedly in this hadith that because you s you curse and swear a lot and you uh you take furniture and you'd you know you're ungrateful to your husbands and and then it goes on to say that that uh that your naked

and apparently in the narration some woman says you know and what is this son why are we lacking and the hadith mentions the prophet saying well when one of you menstruates they don't pray so that's a lacking in their deen allegedly and when one of you if there's a testimony a witness testimony two of you is equated to one man and that is a lack in your intellect so this is the narration there's obviously a lot of problems the the chains have also been problematized and these other things but yeah just for people in case you weren't familiar with the the hadith that's what

is actually i think once again as i said that uh had the term would be i mean had the expression would be just to the fact that you would have maybe translated as that yet there is some defect or deficiency and intellect but you see what the the the compound expression is which means if translated equally would mean that there is some deficiency in your intellect and there is some deficiency in your religion as well yeah exactly and that would not make sense that what exactly is uh are we talking about when you talk

about deficiency in religion so i think we are faced here with a scenario in which you see uh in arabic there are certain words which uh when used in a certain meaning that meaning becomes popular and at times we don't realize that the word also has different connotations so the word nakasa uh which is of course the the inflection of nakasa nakasad uh actually not only means deficiency or something which is reduced it also means to give concession to reduce something to to to have that mitigating effect on someone so and you can see from the narrative

itself that the word is not talking about any sort of deficiency it's talking about the relief that is being given so when women are not asked to pray or to fast in ramadan or when they are fasting it's not that they are deficient in their religion it is because they have been giving relief in this matter so basically what is being said here is that you when it is said that nakasa akal wadeen it's mean that you are being given relief in religion and when the word religion is coupled with the word akul it is this is common arabic i mean in common arabic literature you'll find being copulated with deen to connote worldly affairs uh

as opposed to religious affairs so deen when comes with occul it actually when there's a conjugation uh it's like two opposites so one is talking about religious affairs and the uncle is talking about your your worldly affairs so basically what the narrative is talking about is that you are being given relief in your worldly affairs and you also been given relief in your religious affairs and the word relief actually has been erroneously you know translated as as deficiency because yes one of the meanings of the word nakasa is to reduce something and when you reduce something you make it deficient as well yeah but and there is

i was going to say and there is a narration i believe from ibn mas where this is from him it's not murphy and so he's saying this obviously so this is a narrative also there is also a part of this narrative which is does not go up to the prophet himself it is basically something which abdullah masood is reported to have said uh but because as i said that uh i mean the narration of a sahabi is i mean is given the same weight as the narration of the prophet himself because uh obviously technically they're not equal but because at times uh people think that this is something which is reported by a sahabi from the prophet himself that it makes uh i mean

it makes it gives that narration a little more importance than just being an opinion of the of sahabi so yes you're absolutely right that there is a makuf element or the element in which it's not the opinion of the prophet but nonetheless because our religious scholars use this narrative and in in belittling uh women so therefore it's essential that uh whatever the description whether it's the sahabi or the prophet the meaning of the narrative should also be uh i mean delineated and brought up properly and as i said that there are arabic words which have which have a certain meaning in certain aspects but it's not that they have the

same meaning in all aspects and the context also shows this you see when it says that what is the i mean if i translate it in in a in the conventional way i would translate it as what is the deficiency in our religion right this would not make sense but if i translate it by by using the words what is the relief that we are given in our religion or what is the reduction of of responsibility so it's basically reduction of responsibility relief concession that has been talked about another thing that i'd like to point out here is that uh in in the subcontinent because the word in in in the language the word nux

is used as defect also it's not just deficiency it's also defective to have a defective intellect so what has happened here is that the urdu meaning of the arabic word has also played its role although this cannot be said of the arab world because of course they are not conversant with urdu but uh in the in the in the in the in india and pakistan in that background because of the fact that the word has an overlapping in the urdu language and in the urdu language it's not just reduction or deficiency as i said it's it's like it's it's a word which is has a has a connotation in which something is amiss something is at loss it's like having a deficient intellect or deficiency in

somewhere and even if we take apart the uh the components of this hadith um this it appears that this um so this is so here's where i'm at this is how this had the these narrations appear to me they appear that somebody along the way is is kind of whether i whether it's from the companions era the taberine era the ataba tab era that they are back projecting a message and it's an interpretation that seems to have evolved there some way because if

you take this hadith apart just looking at the very components within this hadith it begins by because the the narration inside in sahih bukhari by bilal is that the prophet asked them to give sadaqah and they gave sadaqah and the women took off the earrings and they gave it and they did all these so and that's a very gracious hadith and so in these narrations that that are slightly different in in these uh first of all if the prophet is telling this to the women according to the narration he went off to the women's section then none of the companions went with him so this is obviously being transmitted later on through someone who is not

being mentioned in the chain the other issue is if you take these components apart it begins by saying well you are the most inhabitants of the hellfire now we when we take it apart and we just oppose it with the quran now the quran just addresses insane and nast as for hellfire not women like the first thing right the other thing that uh it says well why are you the most inhabitants because you swear the most now now just saying factually from a normal you know just an observational perspective men generally

swear far more than women i mean that's pretty much always been the case it's not ladylike like people you know you see a woman swearing people oh it's not ladylike so okay this first thing of swearing even from the time of the arabs from prejahilia up until the world now men often if not equal are more and this okay in gratitude you're ungrateful to your husbands but the quran discourse is insane is you know kafura you know this is insane it's very grateful ungrateful insane is like this and and then we bring to this this thing of salah well the nox or the

tanakus but the salah thing is once again in sahih bukhari the the prophet is saying that the hate the menstruation in namazaka um allah has prescribed this for you there's no evil in this you know this is not a dirty thing this is not some of the people thinking men's menstruation is a curse and no it's not he said you know this is a natural thing so and they taught us that islam taught them not to pray so so that can't like if i say to you that look oh don't do this you know you don't do this you just sit here and then you say okay you're sitting there and then i come in and say you're bloody lazy ain't

you you just sit here and uh but you'll say but i just i'm just doing what you told me you know you told me could you say here so if i tell you don't pray at this time and then i say well oh that's a nooks or that's a lacking yeah defect it it takes so the whole thing i feel that maybe like whatever was said at that time maybe some people it's very understandable that people may have had some people may have had an understanding in society that some people may feel women maybe they're not as articulate historically they may have felt that maybe that some people felt they weren't equal right and this gets

religionized in this way because some person thinks well maybe the prophet said something and it was in different words and somebody's saying it like this paraphrasing putting it back this is just my thoughts on it because when you take it apart it seems to go against the everything in the quran which is about insane and not nissa another important thing here is that even if it is uh i mean considered that the prophet did address women then we need to understand that he was perhaps addressing a specific lot of women about whom he might have received complaints or about whom he might have observed

something so you see uh another important thing is that as far as hadees is concerned it is always situational it is not generalizing women of every era it's talking about the women who were right in front of of the prophet at that time he was addressing them a group of women who might have been swearing a lot maybe or who might have been showing in gratitude to their husbands i mean this is something this is can also be interpreted to mean that he was speaking to a specific group of uh women who were guilty of this the problem is that we have generalized this uh to the to the rest of women as well so another important thing to understand hades is that it is always situational it is not

that the prophet is going to stand like delivering the quran and he's going to speak and explain the quran in a way that people people think that as if he is delivering a lecture on hadees or his own in his words it is generally something which has come up it is always situational either an incident happens or someone asks a question and it relates to that to that particular background in which he is speaking and so i think that uh if we stretch this even to mean that women are being addressed i mean this is always the specific case of women at that time otherwise look at aisha's i mean if you asked me i would i would perhaps say that uh the greatest single scholar of our ummah of the prophet

after the prophet of course is aisha's has articulated so many i mean so many issues the way she debates with the prophet at times the way she discusses things with the prophet at times and the way she has handed down a lot of material from the prophet's life so i think that uh isn't there a narration about take almost half the deen from yeah or take so such a large portion of that or something something along these like these words yeah i think that it's also belies uh facts and but the major thing is is linguistic so you see uh i mean hadees has not been transmitted verbatim

i mean it's not that these literature is something like the quran which we should translate words verbatim it's like the understanding of the narrator and the word nakasa as i said i mean it has to be understood uh in its proper connotation even if we regard this to be an editor of the prophet and even if we regard it to be something that is soundly ascribed it cannot refer to deficiency at the word nakasa i mean you look at the famous narration from the from one of the bedouins who said that uh please prophet tell me something uh if you if you just tell me something which i follow and i am i'm able to enter paradise and the prophet told him that you do this and you fast

and you pray and etc etc and at the end of the narration that bedouin says i will neither increase anything in this what you have said nor reduce anything so you see the word unquest in arabic is not something which means a defect or a deficiency as i mean is always the case and at times but it also has the meaning of reduction relief concession so i do think that this narrative does make sense and it makes sense in the way that it it's just delineating the relief which has been given to to women it's not i mean i mean anything wrong in on their part it's the relief part i think

somebody somebody might ask uh that what in that context where this in this hadith where the prophet is allegedly uh warning them about being in hell and because of ingratitude and swearing and cursing but then following by saying let's let's say reduced if we're saying the word narcissa being reduced being and reduced responsibility of let's say reduced worldly and religious responsibility how even if like let's say we use those words how does that tie in to

the first part of the hadith of saying well that is the football i mean you see there there's different parts of which have been juxtaposed together it's not necessary that they were given at the same time in fact i do think that the part which was delivered on eid was the one that we are just talking about and the the other one which says was a different sort of occasion which has been juxtaposed together because it is interesting that the narrators keep changing this turbulence in which aid it is right so some of them say abha and some say it was this and uh

so there's a bit of confusion on what eid it was and where but yeah that's um so shukran i mean that's uh you know that's really interesting to hear speaking of um diminished or reduced um whether it's perspectives when it comes to women something that ties or follows really aptly with this discussion is is that of the the value of woman because of a woman because if we're speaking of her intellectual value and houdini value her existential value

which is a huge masala as well that that people have made the claim that a woman her life in case of accidental death is worth half the life of a man now that ties i'm just saying this this presentation of this saying knocks out to be totally separate but it kind of mirrors itself that this this challenge in this hadith this uh issue issue uh there ain't any sahih hadith on that but this issue that a lot of people have given fatawa for and i know um in pakistan i

think uh dr tahir khadri sab as well challenged this and i know hamid challenged it as well but i think with the doctor he got a lot of slack for it i think from people when he challenged it yeah so i'd love some thoughts on that because people there they're saying well okay you accidentally you're driving you killed someone okay in the past they weren't driving they were on a horse now you accidentally you only pay half of what you'd pay simply because he just has the male genitalia that's right simply yeah that's it again you see this is a question that has been grossly i would

say misunderstood this issue uh and cultural things have impacted it you see this technically what you've just said relates to what we call the law of dia the death is something which is uh a penalty which is imposed on people who uh i mean who have accidentally killed someone then they are required to give that that penalty and if it is said that generally if women are people who are accidentally killed then the penalty that is opposed impose on you uh would be half that the penalty which you imposed on uh you had you've been had you killed a man so you see uh the quran tells us that this death is according to the maroof and custom of a society in

the arab society this was the case that generally the the custom that was followed was that women if they would be accidentally killed then the theater would be half that of a man and this this maru for this convention is something which goes along with the society it does change it can be legislated it could be do uh i mean it could be changed as well what was happened is that we have adopted the roof of the arab society so in the times of the prophet this was the convention this was the roof but the quran tells us that the roof is something which is to be taken of the of of your own society it's not a society of the

prophet himself when it is said that uh that you have to give it to the to their people and it doesn't you see in the quran when it mentions that a person who kills somebody accidentally that this giving this to the family it doesn't that would have been the point to say well oh by the way if it's uh you know zakar it would be this if it's unsaid would be this the quran leaves it as just a singular thing as the muslim and and also just juxtaposing the quran uh doctors are that

also the quran says that um that whoever kills enough a nerfs and it makes no distinction about whether it was a male or a female yeah absolutely so so you see well again what has happened here is the the custom it was prevalent in arabia because we know from history that this was the custom in arabia that when women would be killed uh they would be given half the deer to the family and when a man would be killed he would they would pay a full deal because of the fact that this was the arab custom in those times uh people think that i mean we have to adopt the

same custom so we have to understand that there is something is a law which has been left to the conventions and the custom of a society which can be legislated uh in by a parliament or of every era of every age keeping in view that particular uh i mean it could be twice it could be the reverse i mean in certain societies we can just say that okay the the between men and women are equal or we can even go and say that women have twice i mean you will be imposed a twice penalty because of the fact that they occupy such importance as we can give them so the bottom line here is that the itself i mean half the death is something which was the arab custom and we are not required to follow the

arab custom what we are required to do is to follow the custom of our own society and if it does not exist so to speak then all we can do is we can legislate uh and specify that but the problem here has arisen because we think that it is something which is an eternal law without realizing that i mean it was talking about the arab custom and just to just put in the in the uh sure as well just for the viewers that there is not a single not a single sahih hadith to do with the diya not even one and what's interesting

is that when we look at the quranic um the quranic rulings they seem to be generic like it mentions enough nafs and there is when we look at certain hadith we do find there is a hadith i believe it may be in nassari but there is a hadith that the prophet said that he said in enough believing enough this is the dear without differentiating and there is another hadith that is once again in many books uh it's in several books that the prophet said

uh al-muslim al-munu that the believers are united against people against a common enemy that may come against them that yet they are one force in solidarity that the believer's blood is equal and so if we are to look at the evidence it it seems that it's very clear really if we're just looking at evidence not the opinions of certain scholars that came and if just the evidence there is not a single sahih hadith to say there is a hadith i think it's in beihaki that says

it um sorry i think it's a transmission from i think ibn almat or someone saying that a woman it's only half of the deer but it's a weak transmission uh but there's nothing sahih so just in case people are wondering that you know like you mentioned it was there in the arab society and people may say well okay but what about islam if we're looking at just the islamic literature there is nothing that says that that that can be brought sahih nothing but it has then become unfortunately popularized along the way as as tradition got formed which was shaped by culture yes and i

said that any important thing is that again having recourse to the quran in cases of intentional murder where the quran discusses that it says that if there is if the family of i mean if the person who has murdered someone is to be forgiven so the quranic words are seen something very important if you have some i mean if you have to be given forgiven that murder then in that case you will have to pay that penalty money which is the death money and for that maru follow the conventions of your society and give it in a very goodly way

so you see even in cases of intentional murder where people murder people intentionally the quran says that if the victim's family forgives the the person the perpetrator uh and in that case it charges penalty which is called digit then as i said the words are foreign follow the conventions of your society so the arab society had this convention in which the head of of the women of women was half in that time in those times but today i mean it's not the same case so i would once again stress that aside from hadees the quran is absolutely uh i mean emphatic that

the maroof has to be followed and whatever the maharoof is it's just not the arab maru it's the maru of your own society that has to be followed and a quick question here if you wouldn't mind sure that's we've had a question here by uh arabian princess it was just to do with the hadith you were just discussing just before this about the women being in the hellfire and she she's written for sahil bukhari muhammad

[Music] oh so if it's if the prophet hasn't yet passed away how did he see that the majority of the inhabitants of the hellfire were women um i think this is something which is very common in hadith literature in which the prophet has shown vision there he's shown visions of the future i mean he's shown dreams and dreams are one of the way to instruct him and this particular narrative does seem that he was shown this vision in his dreams that women are more any uh they're more in hell

and as i said again this is something that has to be understood that he was talking to a specific group of people so the answer to her would be that uh this is uh i mean it's not that the prophet had passed away and that therefore you have to imagine all those things but because we know from the quran and from hadees literature that a lot of instructions which were given to the prophet were in the form of visions in order to educate him and this is a vision that was shown to him and and that is precisely the reason i think that this part is different from the part that we were discussing before regarding so that was a real time incident and this is something which happened elsewhere and this is something which we're going to see it also

it qualifies equally to be uh said when someone is shown a dream so it's not that prophet is i mean seeing this happening in front of him it's like a vision being shown to him yeah and but and just to to kind of just seal that with uh once again when when we're reading the quranic discourse um the the kind of depiction or the uh the imagery that is brought before us of the people inhabitants of the hellfire the quran does not draw towards anything about women being the majority absolutely not it doesn't does it

it's very it's just addressing mankind it never says anything like women will be this and women in fact women are not at all in any way like that targeted in the quran regardless of gender that the fate in the heart offer of disbelievers or people who are wrong to us is disgust and as i said it's like a situational thing so you see there are a lot of on the spot questions uh for which people come to the prophet or with the prophet would address and that too indirectly in order to rectify certain situations and what generally has happened is that a narrative which was belong which belonged to a certain situation uh it has been generalized and therefore

thought to be something of a universal and these are ultimately we can't these are narrations that one person has heard from one person from one person and most a hadith according to the majority of mahathir i mean in the books of hadith they will tell you that most hadith are paraphrased through the generations so they are not they call in in the books of hadith they call him so it's not verbatim they i've taught you you will say in your words and you teach him and even though some ulama were against that like imam malik but the majority accepted revival right

so just always keeping that in mind it isn't um yeah and you'll find that about 99 of the narrations are are revived will be the understanding only one percent and that too may be the supplication of the prophet himself the duas and the prayers that he taught is one area which is verbatim mostly but in most cases it is royal marana and revival mana of course incorporates the understanding of the narrator a lot and in spite of all honesty in spite of being very sincere in spite of being very competent every human being can make mistakes yeah or misunderstand things

and it's it's interesting just on that note that there's a there's a very popular hadith which is uh in sahih bukhari i believe as well that it's from huraira that he says that a bad omen and i guess it's linked to this topic because it says that the bad omen is in three things that in a like a horse or a beast that you have in an abode a home but in a woman he mentions in a woman right and what's fascinating is there is a hadith i believe also in bukhari by aisha where she says

that may allah have mercy on abu huraira he completely missed this hadith yeah because she says the prophet said made the jewish rabbis be damned who say that asham is in three things that that they said that there's in three things and he transmits just the last part so maybe he just walked in and heard the last part but it just goes to show how these uh generations right yeah link up and they they sort of reinforce the same concept

that women are secondary or less in in station and yes absolutely correct that this was a this this is so common that narrators they at times paraphrase they at times miss out the original uh statements and as they walk in they catch whatever information they get and then start transmitting it and look at the one that you just quoted it's a very nice example of how uh the net the sentences they get severed away they just are dropped from the list and a companion is aisha had to correct that and she had to say that well the prophet never said these words he was quoting some other people and the part of that quoting i mean the way she

was quoting it was just left out and it looked as if the prophet is saying something yeah and and you could see look at look at the the utter stark differences in the narration because on one hand you're saying you know oh my god women could be bad luck and women could be like a bad omen in them and women could be like this and and in the other narration no actually the prophet was condemning somebody who believed something like that and look at you've ended up in a 180 uh what was it and it doesn't have to be by bad intention you see somebody could have a sincere intention but they've mis-narrated something

because and that's a i think an amazing example um but yes so we were yeah we were saying um oh just a quick note on that if i may dr zabis just to add to to what you were saying is that and to her question that several scholars had problematized this point as well about uh how could the narration mention more women in the hell fire because they didn't see this as making sense and quality he he says that oh this is just to show i'm not saying you have to agree with his interpretation but this is to show that

how they because they they were unsettled with this so they his interpretation was oh this is simply not saying that women are the the most it's representational of people because the hadith indicate to them that towards the end of time women will far outnumber men so therefore just as a proportion i'm just giving an exam this was what he said not saying you have to go with it but he was saying that this is on its own it's an issue this simply means it's a democratic representation because women at that

time will be so much more than men so therefore it's natural there will be more that mess up but yeah so that's uh wow so this dear thing out of curiosity how is this a a thing in pakistan today or no is it it doesn't yes it is i mean uh the earth is something we've legislated and it has been it has different values so we have we have a theater which is calculated on the basis of the camels which the prophet uh in the time of the profit thus for example it is said that the death is equal to 100 camels which is of course a huge

amount in pakistan uh anywhere in the world i would believe yeah and then of course there is death according to gold i mean or to the currency or to some of some of the other assets and and commodities so there is a difference of the eth which has which has been in pakistan do they in the in the law do they make a difference between management bigger difference which makes a mockery of the law do they yeah they make a difference they do and that is why i mean this was what the draft which was presented uh to at the time of the approval of this law actually proposed a number of uh differences i mean a number of categories of the year but ultimately one was selected so what i'm saying is

that was it was a selection made selection of convenience maybe or something which was in the middle that was made from a number of uh narrations of the prophet which were depicting different uh i mean different uh categories of the earth or different amounts of the earth without realizing that they were basically predicting uh the yet in the era i mean of his own era which was which was of course changing with time yeah and this it would just you know the the the see this is it the the profound bizarreness of of this element because you could get let's say let's say you take an absolutely outstanding uh

female personality who's done so much she could be historical a few centuries ago or whenever a huge let's say a muslim personality and she's done so much and she's this amazing force for good and and legacy and you could take any random man any random unachieving non-accomplished man and by virtue of just simply the phallus you know the the genitalia yeah you would argue that oh accidental death of both would result in not even equal but less for i mean and you this could never be

the words of god and his messenger sallallahu alaihi islam this teaching could never it just couldn't it doesn't you know it just doesn't reflect that yeah right and i believe is written on this he has written in detail an article on there this was because uh many years ago almost three decades ago the issue of was brought up and was legislated upon and we had a lot of discussion and debate on this issue so he had to write and one of the reasons of his writing was also to explain the nature of the i mean what exactly does the yet mean because some scholars think that it is

the financial loss which is inflicted uh some others have a different opinion so uh he actually uh posited the fact that the word dear actually reflects the penalty imposed it's not the economic loss that you cause on other people or some other interpretation it's basically a penalty it's like it's a fine that you impose and it is also found not only in accidental murder but also in in i mean in intentional murder so in intentional murder where you are forgiving the person or the who has killed the victim look as i just quoted earlier on it says that if you want to forgive him then for allah for for someone who is there has

been some concession but the bomb will my roof then the maru should be followed and you can pay the death with asan so basically it's also found in intentional murder and as you said yes in cases of accidental murder as well so it's basically a penalty and the penalty in the times of the prophet the maru for the convention was that women are half the deity because of various circumstances and and various reasons but as i said that this ma roof has can be it has to be changed and can be changed of course in different societies and it could very well be that in some societies that it would be twice that of men or equal to that to the men so it all depends so

what what the bottom line is that this half the issue is something which relates to the ma roof of the arab society and we have not been asked to follow the maru of the arab society we have been follow asked to follow the maruf of our own society it's not it's called father bomb i mean follow your conventions so these conventions change and this is the uh i mean this is the elasticity which the almighty has left in our in our religion that in certain societies uh when the concepts change and when perceptions change you can change uh uh the maruf laws as well with them yeah and just to to to to really just gel with what

you're saying there for the viewers as well that many people sometimes ain't familiar that in the past uh not in the past in the profits time and pre-profits time and slightly after as well you see this whole thing of who is responsible when paying dir landed on the asaba it landed not just it not necessarily even on the person but on his male kind of like let's say his uncle his granddad is you know his cousin his and in a society like today that would be completely almost absurd to many people it's like let's say

my uncle's done something or my nephew's like and everybody comes and i have to i'm now legally liable not him but me so not the actual perpetrator he doesn't pay but the asaba pay now that that's once again rooted in the jahiliyyah kind of custom because they were meant to keep the person in check it was their tribe and this is once again just the the custom and convention which has changed i mean people today don't you know you your uncle is not responsible for you you are responsible for you and so yeah just just to give people an idea that this whole thing would call it the word exactly yeah that

would be the society the tribe and the tribe was i mean because of the tribal system the tribe was like a family and if the amount was huge for example uh 100 camels is a lot so then that would get distributed on the tribe as a help to the person who i mean who's so that he could come out of that that penalty so yes that is something which is again uh rooted in arab culture yeah yeah no shukran that you know that's very very helpful uh for that sure i mean linked to i mean to these topics um once again this whole thing of

women uh we've we've looked at death there i'm just wondering what are your thoughts on then um the the kind of the uh the bequest of the the earth the inheritance that is given this and i'm and i'm also wondering whether that has become a topic in pakistan i know in some arab countries it has become a topic of much discussion i think a good few years ago tunisia gave the official kind of fatwa and a few countries have kind of got into it is what this whole thing of lithua karim is

a male gets that of two females um what and and the inheritance yeah what are your thoughts so i think that this is another very important issue which relates to the fact that well women have been treated rather unjustly uh first that we need to understand first up is that the words which have been used here relates to to daughters and sons it is not a general word which says that uh women and men there's a difference between them and inheritance otherwise you can see that the parents uh who i mean of course one is the mother and one is the father for

them the inheritance is so each of them gets equal so each of them then gets a once one sixth which which of course would mean that there is no uh discrimination so first of all this man versus woman issue has to be negated it's not that women are given less inheritance uh it's the case of a daughter being given half that of a son and if you ask me i'll answer that question i mean uh presently but the fact is that it's not men and women because otherwise excellent point excellent sugar otherwise it was being said that the mother should be given the half of the farm

now as far as the question is concerned that why is it that the daughters have been given half the inheritance or what what exactly is the issue here then you see uh this is this would this would need a slight elaboration if i am allowed to start sort of a little elaborate uh in the background the the quran says that as far as inheritance is concerned this is something which we cannot decide so it says first of all it tells us that the shares of inheritance are based on manfred which means the the benefit of the deceased would have from a potential uh heir so it's

basically based on the benefit and this benefit about the benefit the quran says you just don't know how much benefit your daughter has your son has your sisters or brothers or your parents have god says only i know that and so therefore i'm going to tell you and this benefit in a family system i mean if you understand the family system in which the husband is the head of the family and he is i mean basically financially responsible for the needs of this of the family the quran says that in such cases the benefit of the daughter is half than the son in general i mean we're talking about general cases because in most

general cases where the the son is the head of the family or the man is the head of the family uh once a woman gets married her her benefit is transferred to her husband i mean initially before she's married her benefit remains with the parents but once she gets married that benefit also transfers to the husband it does remain for the parents as well but it's sort of divided between the parents and the husband but for the case of the man or the son himself this does not is not divided because he has the same responsibility in regarding his parents the parents feel more comfortable living with him and hence the fact that in in such cases it is twice that of the of the of the daughter

but having said that this is the share on the basis of familial relationship i mean on the basis of of being a relative to to to certain uh to a certain person there are other areas in the quran which tell us that you can make a will in favor of your heirs if it is not based on your familial relationship with that person for example not on the basis of being a daughter but on some of other bases so i can make a will in favor of a daughter for example who has served much more um i mean who has served me much more than my son or she has done some outstanding service to me or maybe she has been left behind in her in her quest for life or

in her own economic pursuits then i can make a will in her favor and this would not be a bill in the favor of an air as we have as we generally see that lava see i mean you just cannot love us here the levalis you cannot make a veil in favor of your virus or your air so that would mean that in certain cases where where a daughter has served more i mean she has been more beneficial to the to the uh to the deceased a will can be made in her favor and it could be much more than the and then the sun itself but this verse is talking about general circumstances it's talking about normal circumstances in which generally once a daughter gets married her manfroth or

her benefit it's transferred to the husband but in cases it is not i mean as i said there are there there are girls who would not marry uh because they would like to serve their parents or for many other reasons they would stay with their parents and also as i said it would be cases in which a particular a child has been behind in the pursuit of life in such cases for any service or for any need extra will can be made in favor of the daughter so i can sum up uh this whole issue by saying that yes in the family or the familial uh arrangement with the quran individuals envisages it is that the husband is the head of the family and once a daughter

gets married her benefit it does i mean get transferred to the husband as well it of course remains for the parents as well but it gets divided but it is not so in the case of the of the son because i mean he is there for the parents and he's there for his wife at the same time so if this is understood we can see why this differentiation has been made in the case of the son and the daughter and having said that if we think that there are daughters who have served more or who have who need more then a will can be made in that favor and this would not be making a villain the favor of a virus in accordance with lava than the virus because it's not being done on the basis

of that familiar relationship it's being done on the basis of of uh i mean of a need or a service that has been done so the seal part is still there and i'm not sure if i've been able to make sense no no no no absolutely absolutely you know i so so dr how would you so here's the thing that you see there's many verses in the quran that let's say they speak about for example slavery or they speak about something which like they tell you so it's indicating this is you know about slavery or this is about

or let's take the example they say about um um what's the famous verb [Music] so prepare your your kind of uh resources military resources for for aggressors against you and prepare it mentions establish these stables made of horses and these four tresses that you can use these barracks of horses now the quran clearly instructs people to set up these barracks of horses

but you see with time people will say yes but the quran meant that in that time that was the oath of the time but the orf has changed so there's no point having barracks of you know we've got 500 stallions if if the other army is going to be using drones and attacking from the sea so obviously you need to go with the age and if the quran they would understand that in today's age it would mean something different so this as well in that context where women were for the most part not always like hadith many people were fully independent financially and led businesses and

and were successful business women but let's say for the most part uh so you did have exceptionally independent leading strong women but you you also had a lot of women who were dependent in that society on the patriarchal kind of setup so yes so in that context saying that okay fine this is how it works so we're going to preserve all these uh the inheritance rights for the females as sisters it's going to be set this is going to be said and the boys are always left to take what's left but when it comes to the sons and daughters okay you'll give the son twice the daughter because he's going to have

to end up spending on all of them anyway and he's going to become like the head of the household with that having changed because this is what the lifter from they said that look the day and age has changed so that setup isn't this so in this day and age it would just be equality it would be equal wouldn't i don't know what your thoughts would be uh on this also being situational being ma roof according to the ta'ar of uh the moto um because that would make a lot of just to throw in there that they were malikia so

there's a very famous scholar by the name about 600 years ago in the 800s by the name of ibn ardun and he was the great grandson of abu kashma al-burzoli so he issued this fatwa in his time which became known as and what he said was that what he said was that in his day and age women her wives were were kind of really helping the man to make the money so they would take care of i'm sure they did in all societies but he noticed in

his society and he was a great chair he was a great maliki fatih and he he noticed that a man was kind of dependent on his wife to go and earn the money she had to do this and she helped in the fields as well so he said that the wife after death of the husband it's you know as the quran mentions well they can get either ortho or whatever depending on what the children and so on he said before anything gets split she gets 50 percent so this became known as masala because kad because the woman earned it he said

you know it's also called because they would work in the field and this till today is part of the moroccan kind of the cultural law but it was in maliki they said look we understand the quran was saying that but that's in that age and today because the time has changed the wise will inherit 50 if they worked with the husband in the fields so yeah sorry just putting that out for you for you i understand you see uh my humble understanding is that the laws which are left to the conventions of the society or the maharoof they have been specified by the quran thus for example

uh maher or the dowry we have been told that it has to be according to the maharoof there is something again which is according to the maha roof but as far as the other laws are concerned they are i mean uh i mean we cannot bring the ma roof here unless the quran itself tells us that there is a roof that you should follow or the society that you live in and what here we can do is that we can discover the illa or the the underlying reason of something and if that underlying reason changes then of course the directive will change but in my honest assessment i think that as far as this directive is concerned it's something which is uh i mean this is much more permanent it's not dependent on the conventions of the

society it tells us that the that the uh benefit of the of this of the daughter is transferred to the husband because you see uh in a society in which you are living which the quran envisages uh the husband is the head of the family and he is someone who is going to govern the family and therefore at times women have this clash between their own service to their husband or their their attention to the husband and the attention of the parents and this sort of bifurcates the benefit that they have so the important thing here in the law of inheritance is that it is not based on ma roof it is based on on benefit it says manfra the munfa has to change if that changes of

course then perhaps we can think about it but in the family system we can see it's so obvious that once a daughter gets married she's split between the husband and the parents and so it is because of this that the quran says that that ruling applies that she has to be given half but as i said for so many other continued circumstances in which you think that you can should give more to the daughter so on the basis of any service rendered or any basis on the basis of any need that she might have you can always make a will in her favor and give her more i mean even more than the son because you would not be giving her on the basis of our relationship which is a daughter but on the basis of

a need or a service and was something which the quran says that has to be discharged even before you give the inheritance so it says so before even giving inheritance you have to discharge the vasil or the will and any outstanding debt so will can be made on the basis of need or service which would exclude that familiar relationship or the or the daughter and the and the son and the father relationship so i think that the the basic thing that has to be understood is that this law is based on manphara and not on ma roof sure okay no i appreciate i appreciate your you know your thoughts on that

and the transparency on on this topic um speaking of the the husband uh portrayed as the head of the household this really ties into a uh uh you know it leaps across into this parallel of are allah i don't know how you you'd want to translate that as guardians or or the maintainers or the uh of of women

um yeah now this is is another a hot pot of of of uh shall we say criticism and just questioning that what does this mean and is this islamic is is it just you know is this something just descriptive that of the time or is this prescriptive that this is what islam is saying it must be what are your thoughts on that i think it's it's the initial part of the world a verse is descriptive which says that this is how it is happening and this is how things are are happening at the moment and if they continue to

happen the way they are then this is the next part is that women who are pious should be should be compliant to their husbands but coming back to the descriptive part uh the words are nissa and you as you said that what exactly should we translate this these these words to mean whether they are maintainers of their wives or their guardians so i uh generally translate it in a slightly different way and i say that men are the head of the family uh i mean it's like it's not an exact translation it's like a connotation of the translation that what is meant here is that when venn have been regarded as the husbands have been regarded as the head of the family and the worst goes on to

say that there are two things which make them this i mean appropriate for this choice and that which means because they are one of them is more uh superior in in in in this particular task to head the family this he is more geared towards it he is more [Music] and at the same time uh he has been become liable uh to earn for the family so the two things which make him the head of the family are one namely that he's more suitable uh temperamentally physiologically in general i mean there

are exceptions but in general mean that for this particular reason for this particular area he is more suited to become the head of the family and because of the fact that he has been given the responsibility to earn for the family so yes if women earn i mean if they their earnest out of their own sweet will i mean it's their own choice but they are not liable they may not it's not obligatory upon them to earn but for men it is i mean husbands it is obligatory it's mandatory upon them that they must earn a living not only for themselves but for the family so because of this extra responsibility which has been imposed as a as a mandate on them

that they are given the status of being heads of the family wow yeah i mean it just once again just showing that responsibility that the verse is and and i totally uh you know i find myself in sync with what you're saying about this being descriptive and i think it is for the most part if we're taking humanity as a whole right and historically up till today even and we're looking at the whole globe it is still the description for the most part that usually the what happens the men yeah this is what usually tends to happen especially

throughout history and even today if you're taking the whole globe and you're going to find okay maybe not if maybe not as common in europe and some parts of the west but generally the world as a whole asia africa everything you put it together you will get that the the husbands usually will have the responsibility to earn and provide and protect right the family right so that's uh and whether whether it's whether they believe in god or don't believe in god that's just how yeah they tend to be that and yeah so and and this verse is uh dealing with that and it does

exactly as you've highlighted mentioning that they have certain things that aid them in that by virtue of god which will maybe whether it's physical strength or whatever for protection or working even for having to work it's hard as well right labor or what they are prepared to spend from the as in not just each man for himself but i'm going to provide for you so i think yeah that is uh because sometimes i think this gets some unnecessary kind of criticism from people i feel that if people didn't want to follow it in a certain society it's not

prescriptive it's just describing this is how humanity tends to do this if a woman let's say was the uh you know she led the household you know as people may say i know it's i don't know if it's the right term that wore the pants so to speak or she would kind of like let's say in this house it's whatever she says you know mark what's that what's the prophet al-khwarmat

so if she um earns and does all of that then then it would be her in that case of course but in for the most part it turns out not yeah it doesn't happen to be that way yeah and i just feel sometimes people criticize the islamic thing here and i i feel it's kind of not right uh that their criticism isn't a fit for what it's actually saying it's not actually trying to put women down ironically it's telling the men that it's reinforcing the message that what you make and what you earn is not just you you you are a collective that like it or don't like it and the

woman could be earning and she's still just a huge like she could decide obviously i mean that would be a bit kind of like maybe self-centered but let's say she's just making she said well i'm not giving anybody anything of mine well islamically she's not mandated to there's no islamic understanding that's her thing but the man can't just do that he cannot it's like giving him much more responsibility and with responsibility comes the the privilege to be in a position to govern i mean and again the position of governance is something that has to be understood as well it doesn't mean that you have uh i mean you're always giving the final verdict in every in every

matter that arises basically you have to discuss things with your wife uh as a spouse you should i mean reason out with the things and it is only in matters of deadlock because at times you see deadlock does happen and both are equally correct because there's not a question of right and wrong it's a question of uh deciding that who should we follow i mean who is the person who's uh to have the ultimate the ultimate the the casting board so if there is a deadlock i mean the situation is not being able to resolve even after a lot of discussion even after a lot of argumentation and reasoning then i mean one one particular course has to be

adopted so the quran here says that the deciding what is in the favor of the husband not that this would mean that he is right but just to resolve the matter i mean this like a resolving this this site could have been given to the wife it could have been given to the husband and either of them could have decided the wrong thing but the thing is that you have to move on in life and accept this that is one person i mean i don't know i don't i don't not so sure this is the right word for it but just to to use it as a bad word that it's it's also a a curse so to speak not not not that it's actually a curse but

because you would not like to take the burden you would like to resolve the situation in a way that i mean either one of the spouses is able to convince the other spouse that well your reasoning is not correct and you should i mean you should follow the voice of reason that i'm telling you but as i said there are a lot of things which are i mean administrative sort of things in which both are equally right i mean both could be equally right but one has to be followed so just like in a democratic setup when you count votes and you favor the one in majority it's not because the majority is right it's just because i mean there and more people in favor of particular opinion that you go after it but but in this case of a family you you have an even number you just cannot have accounting

awards so there has to have had to be some other uh decision yeah and and and when it goes wrong there's also that guilt of burden of like well i should have handled it better i should have handled it i should have maybe given the other spouse the chance to follow so you see it's always that responsibility and that the and that tension that might come with it that the person would always think twice before casting a any i mean a casting vote or maybe a card blanche in this in this area so i would say that we need to understand this as well that the husband and wife relationship is basically a companionship it's not a

dictatorship so if you are companions to one another you would reason out you will discuss and you would follow on merit the advice of the other spouse which which would be more sound but as i said in cases of deadlock two things when they come up in the same i mean the same extent there has to be a way out so it's just like telling you that this is the way out it's not necessarily the correct way out it is one way out yeah and this is once again this is descriptive i uh and i even if it is that the most common it's not if there was a a relationship where the woman in a certain society they like in the west in certain households

let's say the woman is going to have the ultimate and she will be absolutely and that's the norm then that's fine they can do that it's not that islam is insane it's but it's describing this is how it generally works and it's giving that kind of guidance you know on this there was a little discussion i was having i wonder if you see i i was speaking with some friends and we were talking about um i guess an instinct and i was saying that uh so we got into this discussion and i and we're saying the way you have um some people may call a language instinct or you have certain instincts um could there be certain things that are also

like like a somewhat of a male instinct and a female instinct if we can use the terms and we ended up discussing this and so i did say and and this was what you know was in the discussion we said that i don't know whether this is a socialized issue then or we felt it may be more of if we could use the term instinct for it that let's say let's say that this thing of spending from a responsibility perspective on other people so we were saying this i guess it was a thought experiment that let's say

a woman we were saying now had four partners four husbands let's say all partners she had four partners intimate partners and and let's say she's well to do like she has you know money is not necessarily an issue now these partners are accommodated and expenses paid and they do let's say they do nothing like these four men just sit there in their flats in their nicely different homes and they just play computer games or they just do stuff uh just hang out with their mates and they do stuff now as a kind of just a thought experiment i said

i think it's it's very unlikely that women would support that that i'll support that that they would fund for men just for just being but there are many societies where men would do that you see like they would if it came to like if money wasn't an issue they would um and i wonder whether this comes to some kind of an inherent instinct to be prepared to kind of provide i think yeah i mean this does seem the case that the the this instinct as you rightly call it

it's like an inborn sort of a thing in which you have this urge to provide it's like something which is uh built in in a mail that he would like to provide the shelter the protection the finances and uh yes and perhaps that is why the almighty has said that that temperamentally physically psychologically they have this this edge uh if i if i can use the word edge not in the not in the form of any of any preference but because of the fact that this is more uh i mean it's more found in them so i think maybe it's like an instinct i mean yeah

psychological physiological uh and and the thing in which you have that particular bend of mind in which you like because i wonder if the the viewers that watch this that are women like as a thought experiment would they uh can't if they were in that position let's say money wasn't an issue and they were allowed let's say they had four male partners who have their own accommodation and they pay for everything and and the men do nothing all day let's say given in this hypothetical scenario and you have to just month on end pay for their living would they do it and i i found most people this is what what in our thought

experiment we found they wouldn't whereas men i'm not saying all men but many men still found themselves they would if money wasn't an issue they would do it so it's an interesting thought experiment i mean i'll leave that for the viewers uh following on from that uh uh dr and linked with that verse moving forward as a very uh contentious and critical discussion that comes up all the time um sort of nissa versus uh 134 is it what the the first the hitting verse that comes straight after

or just right after this um this is a huge point of contention um yeah i'd love to get your thoughts on this yeah please share your insights what we need to understand is that uh of fundamental importance to religion is the preservation of the institution of the family so you see the quran has made it sure that if the institution of the family can be preserved and if divorce is something which can be avoided then a certain powers have been invested in husbands

because you see we are not just living in urban societies we need to understand that the koran is an is a book for all mankind for all eras and when it was being revealed there were a lot of rural societies there were a lot of feudal societies there were a lot of tribal societies and even today there are countries like for example i mean afghanistan or some of the other areas which are still tribal in there in their outlook so in order to preserve certain societies and the the maori institution this right to beat women was invested i mean it's not as a obligation as an option in which when exercised you could save your marriage from getting

dismembered or i mean just not get letting divorce happen but if for example there is a there is this uh any an inkling of the fact that raising one's hand would immediately dismember the whole institution this is something that should not even be thought of because remember it's it's uh it's a means to avoid that that that uh that was to take place and the quran starts off by saying that uh basically this is the this is when this has to be exercised not in the case of any difference of opinion not in the case of any i mean you have another opinion your wife has another opinion you would like to impose that opinion it it says that no shoes no

shoes means that the woman stands up in rebellion and she says that now i'm going to the head of the family instead of you being the head of the family i am going to take up the job of the head of the family and you have to listen to me so it's like turning the topsy turvy the system which which the quran just mentioned in the previous verse it says that men have been invested or husbands have been invested uh with the status of being heads of the family but now suddenly women says

and then it says that i mean the whole the worst offering tells us if you fear any rebellion if you fear that she is going to take up the same task as you uh does this you know this because those that you fear uh is this just simply them challenging or is this could this i know some ulama said this could even be that they were maybe you know in that context affairs and it could be other things and uh but i mean i don't know what your thoughts so i think that is that is one of the

manifestations of the shoes that you start having affairs or you're having intimacy with other other men but it starts off with the fact that you're challenging the authority of the husband i mean it's like saying that well i'm going to be the head of the family or in other words if there is going to be a deadlock my my uh i mean opinion has to prevail remember in the previous verse we talked about the fact that as when there is a deadlock the opinion of the husband has to prevail because of the reason that the worst mentions but it says no shoes which means that she is now standing up in rebellion she is now saying that i am going to defy everything and now you have to listen to me although you are earning for me although

you're more suitable i mean for this decision making but now i'm not going to let you do that so the quran uses this word in a very specific context less than that even thinking of what the procedure has been laid out in the i mean in the coming verses cannot even be thought of so to start off it has to be in your shoes that you think that your wife is standing up against your authority and then there is a whole step of things that has been delayed uh then doctors somebody could just say that a moment ago you were saying that the authority thing was uh descriptive and you know it's it's better suited and it's more so just to question on certain things

why would that be no because what i said was that it was descriptive but once you adopt it it becomes prescriptive although the first part of our moon is descriptive but as soon as you enter the second part it now means that you have entered into a relationship and now you have accepted about those kind of societies right these are acceptors so when it becomes a norm uh before that it was not a norm but once you accept it it becomes a norm so therefore now it is essential that uh if the wife stands up against the husband's authority and and and i'm going to clarify and this isn't just talking about any this is talking about significant turbulence or kind of clash it's not

talking about things like you know should we make this for dinner or should we make that it's not it's not talking about anything it's a very serious thing that wife says that i'm going to behave as the head of the family now you have to listen to me there is a difference of opinion i my opinion has got to prevail it is in such circumstances that the husband says that well one of us can be the head and if you start doing this then faizon then the quran tells her tells the husband that you should i mean give nasiha good good advice and if that doesn't happen of course this should go on for a particular period of time i mean you should advise a counselor and the quran says that if it

doesn't happen then that you leave her alone in her in the bed and you don't have intimacy with her and this again is something which is a expression of distress from the husband that she's challenging her authority and again this should i mean a period should pass over this and the next thing the quran says is that when you think that this is something that you can exercise in order to uh in order to curb her tendency of no shoes then you can even beat her so this beating part is something which is like more of a corrective measure in which a teacher would be teaching her student that don't be unruly so it's like dealing with an unruly person and as i said it's also an option it's not an it's not an

obligation it's not a something which is uh i mean incumbent upon you and if the person wisely exercises authority would if you think that living in most urban areas or most urban societies of today hitting the wife would be counterproductive and it indeed it is and you might get hit in return or she might ask for divorce the rape the very reason the very reason for which you're not trying to do that so i think no prudent man would challenge it so remember my initial introduction to the topic when i said that you see we are living in an urban society in which uh i mean raising hand on the wife cannot even be thought of but remember it's not just the urban societies that we are used to they are still tribal societies and in the times of the koran they were

tribal societies in which this was an accepted norm this would reduce the person's uh i mean the wife's uh inclination towards the shoes yeah so yeah here's where yes so here's where i'm at with with this uh sure so i wonder what your thoughts are on it it's that this this verse uh is descriptive and it was oh it was naturally was for the community in which it was revealed and by extension people that come afterwards but they were the primary recipients right now in this verse no shoes as well does it's not it's speaking because no shoes

kind of roughly translates as a uh some kind of it's it's not the word normal word for rebellion but it's that kind of meaning something which is giving that kind of meaning now uh but it doesn't make clear what that is it doesn't mean that what what is that and and nobody uh from that time understood it to mean these day-to-day things like oh somebody's you know nagging and somebody's shouting and somebody nobody understood that kind of stuff now in this thing of okay

this hitting this was something in that society that was deemed normal not but not only normal it was something that people themselves they they were a very warrior society they were like the for people in the west that obviously don't have a frame of reference it's like saying the kind of viking society but before them they were from you know centuries before that but they were that kind of lifestyle try you know tribes that raid each other's tribes and they do all of this and everybody you know carries a sword and and women too were part of parcel of that society and you see that in those societies

people felt that when they had overstepped they expected a kind of discipline and this may sound bizarre to let's say many societies today since we've moved so far yeah exactly we're very different to those societies but in those societies the women too were a part of that that kind of worry thing that what kind of a man is he if i over stepped this and did all of this and he didn't even raise his hand on me now a few years ago i mentioned this in one of my talks a few years ago there was a controversy um it was uh

in morocco i believe that there was a um a female singer reasonably popular as in internally popular within morocco and not not necessarily religious or anything but just just a normal kind of singer and i think maybe like a model or something but she had made this statement in a it was like an interview where she was talking and she said so i think this was 2018 or 20 maybe 19 but it was it's not that long ago but she said well you know if i did this and she was saying something and she said well you know if i did this and my man didn't hit me then what kind of a man is he

now this caused the huge outrage because you know all these people said oh you're you know how dare you kind of promoting uh domestic violence so she had to give all these uh you know follow-up things by saying look i don't and she's a very you know very modern woman i mean she's not somebody like religious or anything and and she said look i'm i'm in no way kind of supporting any kind of domestic violence or anything but i'm just saying this is how i uh understand a man to be a real man that you know if i was with a man if i kind of wronged him i would expect him to put me in my place now this was in

a few years ago and obviously i can you know you can understand why he got a lot of criticism but if you go back 1400 years in a society that lived every on standby for war and men were seen as men that always carried swords and did things and they could defend the honor and and to the extent that even if you went into agriculture it was seen as oh my god this guy's moving away from a warrior lifestyle against the hadith in bukhari that any house that an al-atul that a farming plough enters comes into it because the person leaves

this fighting lifestyle that in that lifestyle this would have been this was the kind of norm it wasn't to uh to to tyrannize but it was a kind of discipline thing that people themselves expected but when society changed so there is a fatwa of the student of ibn abbas that he said hitting is haram because he felt in his society now the society has changed and whether it did in all societies or not but wherever it continues to have especially in this day and age to have changed uh this is also what ibn ashur writes in his tough see

that look yes there may be some tribal societies that still have that sentiment today where the woman also or people like students expect to be disciplined if they get something wrong but in all of the the cities where there's kind of tahadur and tamadun and people have settled urbanalized societies that this would not be permissible in those societies it would just be causing harm and it would be haram in islam but if the urf of a society where people accepted that as a norm all of the people not just the men the women included everybody accepted it then that

would be that society so he he saw this and a lot of these people as generally in this day and age it would be haram especially since most in most modern all these kind of societies it would just be mafsada it would cause harm but my understanding would be that if it is causing news maybe men are misusing this right then legislation can be done uh in favor of it and it could be stopped and men could be even punished for this but you see uh to to totally dis i mean to wipe it off i think uh that again was something which because if the is consistent with his philosophy of

makassar sharia is something that would expect him but uh personally and humbly i i would not agree with him uh regarding the makassar sharia because the sharia itself has done as a as a structure as well that has to be followed so i would say that if the authority is being misused then the husbands could be punished or they could be a ban clamped on this uh the whole directive because this is basically something which is uh corrective in measure and if the correction is not causing the desired effect then you could legislate again against that and men could be stopped or even penalized for that so i think that uh i mean doing away with the structure of the sharia instead of that which is generally the case with many scholars i think we

should remain within the structure and see that the structure itself has the robust i mean it has that robust nature in which things can be managed in a way that they don't cause that that extreme situation and speaking of uh governments legislating and i want to come to this whole topic of uh marrying minors or nika or marriage with minors underage marriages just one second before i do so i i saw a few comments here about the thought experiment i'd said and a few of them said so just to address that just so before

we move into this a few people said uh that look they know many women that uh do support their husbands and there's also an assumption in this that women sit around doing nothing i just wanted to clarify the thought experiment just so you understand that the thought experiment was meant to be absurd because you see what happens is to see a difference there's no point looking in the center of something you have to go to the periphery to see where things separate so you sometimes peripheralize things by making them absurd even in the hypothesis just to see the difference so in that hypothesis we weren't talking

about one we were talking about four so you have to have four and the four have to be doing nothing so this is in this hypothesis because it's absurd so they just sit around these four men just sit around they just play video games and they just have their friends come around and they just chill and yes you have you can have intimacy with them when you want but other than that you pay for the apartments you pay for the food you pay for everything and this is absurd but the hypothesis is meant to be absurd to show the so in that you have and there must be four they can't just be one four so four different people that you're paying for their cars

you're paying for their things their lifestyles they just chill and they do nothing for men now i i found in many people in that absurd hypothesis that women would refuse to do that and they generally speaking wouldn't they wouldn't be interested like that and in fact they would lose respect for men that become like that um whereas men so and even this is if money is not an issue but men many men would still do it so that's where you see at that absurd peripheralization you start to see a difference in what i may feel is the

instinct the male female instinct that's why the hypothesis was absurd i know somebody said that's absurd in that case they're doing nothing but that's to show that but yeah sorry to to to come back uh yeah so this this is a very serious topic this whole thing of marrying underage girls um you know legitimizing it through an islamic stamp um i know it's a huge topic but you know it's it's such a um it kind of it really throws unfortunately a stain on islam and it's become such a challenge

because people try to present the prophet sallallahu alaihi and and there you know i say that i feel that that in itself is i i would argue not to to kind of call to any kind but blasphemous that you're not allowed to you know to to justify your kind of lusts you're not allowed to call in on profits to to bring them down uh not that i believe this even happened with the prophet but just say if you did believe it that there's an there's an incident in uh mentioned in suti's hawi lil fatawi where

he has where there was in egypt a case where two people are arguing in the marketplace and one person he's cursing the other guy and he's insulting him and he's saying you know you know you're good for nothing you're a loser and he says to him you know you you're a and he said and he says to him that in you know why don't you just go look after your sheep your shepherd and he says in response that look um if i'm a shepherd so what even the prophet was a shepherd now when he says this he gets arrested and he gets arrested and he gets taken to the local adi who's a maliki

and the maliki says that you've insulted the prophet and you're on death row and this is obviously an extreme example but jalal dina suthi brings it and and then the people obviously panic and they say look why is he on death row and he said well you know why how how do you he says that look the person was insulting you but for you to climb out of the pit that he's thrown you in you decided to drag the prophet in there just so you can step up like by saying okay i'm i'm i'm a shepherd but the prophet was a shepherd in an insulting context so and then people got involved and then

they said look he's not a maliki and they took it to a shaffer judge and eventually he just he got in trouble but he wasn't you know he wasn't undone for blasphemy but the point is that uh jalala dina siyuti then also speaks about this topic saying look it's very important that if a person is ever justifying something you don't use the prophets and people to justify your own needs like you can teach you can teach that the prophet was a shepherd many prophets were shepherd this is great for sabor this is great for this but not as you know somebody's insulting you you say oh well you know so what if i'm a trump or i'm like this they you know you

can't do these kind but just putting that aside coming to this people yeah they they they try to bring the prophet salallahu sallam into this this becomes a topic what are your thoughts on this and what where does pakistan stand with this as well because this is legislation yeah so i think there are two aspects uh one of is of course the one that you brought in is the syria of the prophet and whether he married a child right or not but even more than that there is a verse in the quran which is actually used to reduce the fact that child or child rights are something which the quran has spoken of and it has sort of given permission so this is

worse worse than surat allah this is the 65th surah of the cross so it says that uh i mean if women have not menstruated then this is how if divorce arises and this is the period that you should give should give them three months because the words have been used are walnut hidden so they think that well these are under girls that have been talked about because they have not been they have not menstruated as yet and those who have not menstruated obviously are underage girls i mean there could be five or six or seven years old so thereby telling us that if you

divorce such children i mean such child rights then the idiot for such child rights is three months now the aspect that needs to be understood here which has been pointed out by many scholars is it that the arabic words are not mahis na i mean they have not menstruated i mean lamia hasn't which means they have in spite of reaching the age of menstruation they have not menstruated something like that so the lump is used for em emphatic techniques they do not uh they do not despite the fact yeah in spite of the fact that they have reached the age of menstruation and this does happen in yeah in many cases that i mean they mentioned in the for because of like some kind of

biological uh whether it's going to be mishappening or something women that don't have uh periods they don't have periods right they reach puberty but they don't have periods so regular irregular cycles as well because the whole just yes sorry just just for the listeners uh doctors okay so the verse is speaking about when you divorce your women and not to forget that the verse actually begins with nisa that is that the one is that when you divorce women but here it's then saying the verse that follows and then follows about okay when you divorce them so the question is how do you know that they're

not pregnant so this is what it's talking about the ether so well how you knew in the past was you'll wait for the period because once they have a period you'll know but islam took it a step further and said wait for three periods be absolutely certain because sometimes a woman could have spotting maybe she thinks it's a period but she's actually pregnant and there's a lot of rights and the husband he has to obviously cover he has to take care and costs and all of these things so you don't want there to in that day and age especially confusion about this so give it three menstrual cycles

now what about those who don't menstruate or in the sense that even if they did menstruate but they don't menstruate regularly like let's say they have a cycle every you know a few cycles in a year now in that case how would you know whether this woman was pregnant so it's saying well in that case three months give it three months you can see if there's a break right but sorry just coming back to you doctor thumb that was for the kids so as i said that basically uh this verse is talking about divorce and as you rightly explain that when divorce is given then at times the iddah is generally given as as three periods i mean or three uh cycles but in certain

cases cycles are not there always yeah and this particular verses speaking about the about girls or women uh who i mean have either irregular periods or in spite of reaching the age of menstruation they don't uh sort of have periods and the quran is saying that in such a case don't wait for the periods because they're not happening so wait for three months because in spite of the periods not happening she still could be pregnant so that pregnancy would be asserted uh by the passage of three months and what would be the point of waiting for a pregnancy for like a five-year-old or a six-year-old that would be stupid so why would you wait three months one of the unfortunate interpretations of

this verse which has led people to believe that yes because the quran is talking about uh children who have not menstruated so it is automatically talking about underage children i mean which would mean women women girls which are which are uh which have not menstruated and the second area from which this child uh or child right issue is derived is of course from the marriage of prophet or the alleged marriage of the prophet with aisha ritala who is thought to have been six to nine years of age and i think we just speak about this matter at length in our last session or talk and if you want we can one once again have an elaborate discussion otherwise i mean

not only is it against common sense that the prophet would have brought her at this age uh to to to take care of children who were already the age of aisha if she was nine or six years old but also there is historical evidence otherwise which tells us uh and there are scholars like hakeem nyaz and kandal we have shown historically that how we can know from the ages which are mentioned uh in in history books that aisha's around 19 years of age when she actually got married to the prophet and she in no way can be classified as a child bride exactly exactly oh shukran and and we yeah that's an excellent discussion as well and people

who haven't seen the last discussion we've had do check that out we do speak about this topic at quite some length so yeah and just for the viewers again those those names that you said people who'd uh i know you mentioned them last time as well yeah one of them is hakeem bundy so he's a dear bundy scholar i mean it's not coming from a modern scholar it's coming from somewhere who is educated there so hakeem

and he was he did this groundbreaking research this is maybe about seven or eight decades old and he brought up this issue that look how history has brought up this discussion and has clarified that she was 19 years old and also the fact that the words that have been used for her when the prophet proposed through holla the the lady that the word woman was used and not the word girl was used which would would be uh obviously wrong if she was six years or nine years of age and how that she was already married or at least given his engagement to motherboard son with whom she was she was set up uh before i mean this all thing happened so

but other than these the the most decisive thing that he has mentioned if you would like i can just repeat that is that she i was actually uh the the younger sister of of uh and about asma all sources say that she died in uh at 100 hijrah at the age of 173 hijrah yeah so one fact is that asma was 10 years old to aisha the other fact is that she was a hundred years old asthma was 100 years old when she died in 73 hijrah now this would mean that if she was 100 years old in 73 hijrah then at the time of migration which is zero

hijra she must have been 27 i mean it's a simple mathematics and if she was 27 then aisha was 10 years younger to her she would be 17. so at the time of hijra aisha was 17 and we know that the prophet married aisha before he migrated the nicaragua was done but the departure of the bride was did not take place and that departure took place in madina two years after migration so if she was 17 at the time of migration which we just calculated then obviously two years later would mean that she was 19 when she actually came to the house of the prophet so this is how hakeem nya's emma has shown that history when it has been

reported in in a historical books this is how it has i mean clearly told us that aisha was of this age and it is only because of a narrative in bukhari which says that she was six or nine years old and she used to play with dolls that it is understood that she was a girl and if the narrative of buhari was not there there's no indo there's no way in the world that i mean this could have been something that even muslims would have thought of yeah and there's so many you know and there's so many other narrations in bukhari just on a very quick note that are mentioned at length uh i believe you've you've got some videos on this as well i've got a video as well called the age of aisha where these things are mentioned that

you have narrations like first of all participating in the battlefields where the prophet tells clearly he tells omar if no more sorry if not um he sends him back because he's not 15 yet but aisha is there on the battlefield helping and and and people who said well if not was kind of going to the wounded and giving them water and seeing to them but then having a boy who was older running and giving water and bringing back maybe certain injured wounded people would be more helpful than having

a girl who's much if you're saying well aisha's only like 10 11. having a boy who's 14 doing that is much more apt and suitable so you have that you have narrations where aisha is speaking about very early maki surahs revealed saying oh i remember when that was revealed i used to akuntu you know i used to i was of good understanding when that was revealed and it was so early in in the makkan period and also the what you mentioned uh dr saab about the being engaged to um i think is it um yeah

yes so yes so being engaged previously and when that uh engagement was broken off the mother of the of the uh the of of the boy she says that she says that oh aksha she says you see we fear that she will convert him um and and what if if at that age because if by the time she gets married to profit let's say she's six then this is prior to that this is like at least a year before so what a five

six year old girl how could she convert you know some some guy so the point is it doesn't when you put all of these together um yeah so there's so many um it just becomes very clear and especially what you said for people looking for the calculation uh these calculations that have been done in relation to the age of asma and the age of aisha from all the books they've really uh show a lot of weight there so yeah

is this in countries like pakistan i mean it would be illegal isn't it to marry an underage girl well i mean i'm not exactly sure about the current law uh but i think there is this law which is being uh debated at least that there should be an age which it should be fixed and below that age we should not allow men to marry but i think it's still in under discussion and prior to this there is this custom which is which still goes on uh unchecked but as i said i'm not exactly sure the latest situation but this is it's something which is in under discussion sure okay okay somebody did ask that look what was the what did

the imam say about child marriages now generally you see the thing imam malik he says they they don't put back then they don't seem to be more imam malik said that a girl when she was uh nubile that she could be uh that they could be intimacy now they use that term nubile that they say is a attacker and she's of they mentioned that she's kind of developed and posed pubescent in that sense as in she has the the malarkey uh i mean so

you have that and you have now i know there is this discussion and i cover it in my video people say well imam malik has said in the past and some of these imams that a girl could be married off very young now but they say only the father could have done hernika now that was not they do not say because he very clearly says that's not intimacy that's an akhdun nika and the akdur nikah for then was simply about providing and this is why he says only the father that if they were in a state where and people did sometimes they were

that destitute that they would say okay i'll marry her off to this person he's got money he could take care of her you know when she grows up they can she can live with him as a as a wife and that did happen obviously people lived in greatly impoverished circumstances but it wasn't this kind of uh pedophilic kind of thing that it wasn't about at all yeah about this kind of stuff so that just just to be because somebody had had asked that a better question i'll tell you a better question and this is where you can get guidance is to look where do the ulama because they do speak about this

where do the ulamas be consider somebody to come of enough reason and discretion and they say well you see you become bali you you post puberty but they say what if the balloon isn't apparent like we can't tell like let's say the boy doesn't have he doesn't grow much here facial hair we can't tell by just looking at him is he of age or not does he have to is sallah wajib upon him or not if the balloon is not apparent what's interesting is all of them tend to say i know there's a difference in this one whole of um

i think it might be the sahib 15 but most of them say the money it's 18 and this is back then so before this modern age of 18 if you look at the books on bulu and you just have to you can even just do a google search on the ulama they say when does for example a person become salah and this if we can't tell about puberty and they actually give you a number and they will say 18.

so you'll find they'll say to ashar and there was a one fatwa i think it may have been imam abu hanifa's or the sahih bane who said hamsa tasha 15. so you can you get an idea that they wasn't you see there wasn't this mindset now what's happened is some people have read in with this kind of putting this pedophilia thing into the and saying well these people had it clearly there was nothing you don't get you do have in the past people married earlier than today like people did used to marry at about 13 14 this did happen but you wouldn't get so people might say

oh my great grandma married when she was 14 for example or 13 or 15 these things have always been happening especially in the past but you won't get you know you will not get these examples of them marrying like a seven-year-old girl little girl they generally didn't like in those society like a six-year-old girl like that that would be that was definitely not any kind of norm so when people say this sometimes they say oh well and to prove the norm they use this one hadith but the hadith is problematic um

yeah so and also one thing that might be of interest you see uh all our soon say that in judging a narrative you have to see whether it is against the quran the sunnah and also uh and it also says again if it is against sense and reason i mean if it is against common sense so remember the prophet already had children of her age so the age of aisha if she was six or nine the prophet already had those children with him and i mean common sense says that well he was looking for a companionship he was looking for someone to i mean look to be to be his companion and to look after the children as well so how on earth could he have married a six or

nine year old uh who could not have been his companion who was much more fit to be his child i mean he was of the same age and she could also have played no role in in in perhaps raising the children that he already has and what on earth was the um the reason that he could have married so i think this is again something which has to be understood in that is the most compelling argument on this whole discussion uh dr saab that this you see for people that don't know in husson in the year of sorrow for the prophet the a lot of tragedies befell the prophet so you had his social uh

protection and he's he had a the prophet had a lot of he had this social buffer zone around him because of his uncle he was holding that in place abu talib who had passed away his wife who had been there from the get-go and been a source of strength from you know the days of yahoo museum and mud there and from those days that the prophet is saying zammi luni zamilluni cover me i don't know what's happened khadijah had been that rock that was always there she passes away this is in the same year and then the rejection and this kind of very

horrible kind of yeah attack from and the prophet comes back it is at this time that hola and he has children at home the prophet and he he's the the provider the sole provider he has to earn a living he has to he has this message he has the whole of quraysh ganging up on him he's had people physically attack him and try to you know try to cause him immense harm he's lost all of these things he's without a companion at this time hola says to him that when he's sitting looking the prophet

is very sad yeah and she says to him that you know why don't you take a companion why do you get married and he says who do you suggest and she says how about soda into zama's who by the way was uh the similar age to the prophet uh and she said and the prophet says and who else and she says how about aisha and at the time the prophet tries for uh soda and i think she's already uh betrothed or she's engaged or it doesn't happen and then he tries with aisha but you look at this concept at this time how could have a wife help the prophet she could have helped him emotionally she could have

helped him through uh just being a companion of with intimacy she could have helped him with his message consolidating his message and giving him that kind of uh being that rock she could have helped him by being the the caregiver at home taking care of his children when the prophet goes out uh seeing to the home issues helping him give being like a support a child couldn't do any of these it would just be more of a burden it would be well i know why don't i just get more of a it makes so it's antithetical and this to me was the most compelling argument this

incident yeah from that topic just bringing neatly speaking of maharamia this whole thing of being a mahram the husband wife this whole thing there's a very pertinent issue the the and that's uh brought up actually there was uh once in the in i say once um a few years ago i think about five years ago there was an article in the uk done as well by the mainstream papers that certain muslims are teaching within

england are teaching their women that they cannot travel beyond a certain limit of be 48 miles or whatever and this had made headlines as a as i mean obviously was being done in an islamophobic manner but this topic of maharami having a mahram and a woman cannot travel if she does not have a mahram um yeah i mean this this this is is another uh one that really needs some insight your thoughts on this so you see once again uh the important thing is that hadees literature has to be understood in the light of the quran

the sunnah and established norms of common sense and and reason and as far as this this traveling with the mahram is concerned if you look at the arab society of those times and everyone would agree that it was a it was like a threat for a woman to to travel alone in that society uh she could have been looted she could have been molested and therefore in order to give that protection instinct uh this protection to her that the prophet said well uh if you're if you're going off for for a longer period of time so do remain protected and for this protection you should bring along with a relative so there any chances of molestation or any chances of being

looted or plundered they are done away with and so therefore it would automatically mean that the prophet in his capacity of a muslim ruler was advising women to adopt protective measures so it's so such such i mean it's such a mockery and we think that basically this was a law that had been passed by him as if in all circumstances women would be molested or they would be looted and in all circumstances they would be needing a marriage to protect them obviously the prophet was doing this in those circumstances but this was something that would have happened today we can see that traveling has become much easier it is much more

protective you don't need someone to protect you there's no chance of being threatened or maybe being molested or looted in general uh so this condition that you have to travel with the mehram is particularly something that has to be understood in the light of the circumstances of those times and once those circumstances change the directive would all automatically change so i think this directive has to be viewed in the light of these circumstances and the prophet as a as himself a person who would like to have protected the honor of women gave these directives and this becomes much more uh i mean questionable when we talk about hajj so you see the condition of maramin

hajj is something which is even more uh i mean it becomes pronounced because in normal uh travels i mean it it has its own effects but it's not that grave of a matter but in matters of hajj you can clearly see that if such a law is made that women cannot travel unless they have a mahiram then it deprives so many women uh who can do hajj in a safe environment or umura in a safe environment uh that they i mean they are literally deprived of god's house so to speak so i think it has to be realized that this particular directive was given by the prophet as a person who was the ruler of of a muslim state in which there was always this

chance of of women being looted and plundered and molested and once this these circumstances have been taken care of uh then of course this madam condition should no longer apply it should appliance in areas in which there's still such a possibility and again the protection could change as well i mean you could you could have needed a mum at that time today maybe it could have been in the form of a bodyguard or someone else who could protect you if at all it is needed but bottom line is that the need is something which has been done away with and this condition cannot be invoked in any manner because as they say that all directives they are based on reasoning and if the inlet or reasoning changes

the directive also changes yeah yeah and and for the uh viewers so so there's a um so there's a few hadith uh just in case you're not familiar with these hadith and they usually the main ones are transmitted by i believe you have uh ibn umar ibn abbas i believe now the hadith vary amongst themselves so all of these four that you've got they vary so you'll have uh some will say that any um any muslim yeah any person any woman who believes in allah and his messenger

should not travel three days and three nights or three days at the distance of masafa or uh or sorry just says uh yeah yeah i mean i don't think it says masafata but it says three days and three nights except with the maharam some say yo main two days some say yomun

there were a lot of hostile tribes now during the the prophet's prophetic mission and his lifetime there were many treaties being held with different tribes so a lot of the so the safety barriers would have been kind of expanding with time as well so they would have been you know at some point maybe a lot of neighboring or not so far tribes were also hostile maybe they're now in a treaty but the outer tribes you know maybe where you've got ratfan and hawazin and all these people maybe they're hostile but these closer ones are okay so the distance may be reflecting at the time the safety

of where women could go because obviously men were targets but women were softer targets they were easier targets and they were and you see the prophet taking that extra step um even in the saying that look if somebody comes to us we'll return them but when the women come to muhajira the prophet says oh but we never said you know we're speaking about men in general because women are much more of a target we won't send them back uh and the reason just like what you've said dr zhad that the uh there is an illa a cause to this because some people have refused to

acknowledge that that saying that no this is as though this is a buddhi kind of illa this is some kind of worship and yeah it doesn't make any sense does it there's in fact a hadith in bukhari where the where the prophet says uh i think is it to ma but he says to one of the companions that if you live long

you will see a woman the traveling woman come from uh come from hera all the way to do tawaf tattoo full bait while she will fear nobody nobody with her and she fears nobody but allah and says and i thought to myself oh but where are what about the tribes of and all these the bandits how would that he says i thought in my mind that oh that doesn't make sense and he says and and it came to pass that i saw in old age there was that much safety that a woman came on her own so it's it's it's very you know when we

put these hadith together right yeah and the hajj thing i think is so well articulated uh because it really shows you know when you peripheralize the issue you take it to the edge you see in hajj many people and i know the shafa is a woman can do hajj in a jamaat of women she doesn't need a mahram but imam malik's fatwa is that she can do it for roof

and they don't have to be mahram she just has to be safe yeah if she's in people and she's safe they do not need to be a mahram that she can go and do hajj with them because they said of course and abul walid alberti the great andalusi spanish muslim scholar within his commentary on the mata when covering this hadith he mentions he says that he says that this is to do with safety and he says that he uses he says

that great caravans or the pathways that many people go on these long routes where you have many travelers and they're safe he says he says these to me are like going to town like going to the shopping place a woman can just go to the shopping place she doesn't need a maharam uh so that you've got somebody a thousand years ago telling us yeah thinking like this uh and yeah i think that we have also to understand that the hajj fatwa has been uh imposed by the saudi authorities

because they follow imam ahmad been humble and to him actually uh i mean this is something which is what was the law and they have adopted his his law or his understanding so as you rightly said that other understandings have existed the the malekies and the hanapis but the saudis are following the humbly understanding and and i think that after years they have relaxed these these measures and to my knowledge they have now said that uh women who are uh above 40 i think they can they can come in the form of a caravan or in the form of a cluster of other women as well something something with that effect so

there has been some relaxation as well in the last couple of years wow and and just to add to that that this the hadith you know if people wanted to follow the hadith i'm just saying the hadith mentions the journey of three days and three nights that's the wording of the hadith now i know in the hanafi madhhab even and that's the fatwa by the way of imam abu hanifa that three days and three nights now in the in ibn abedin he does say he's a very later about two centuries ago for the views that don't know uh one

of the final kind of who who says it and stamps it within the hanafi mather in his fatah he says look we're going to disagree with imam abu hanifa and take the one day and one night and then we're going to convert it into the distance that one day and one night would take in his understanding would be whether it's going to be 48 miles or whatever it is and he says and we're going to go with that so this just so people understand where this ruling is coming from it's not actually it's definitely not coming from the quran and it's not

coming from the sunnah in that sense you know it's not even if you're taking it literally you're still saying three days and three and this is why you have strict even uh you know there's a few um salafi saudi scholars uh and these people who say no you can there's a remedy as well who's from saudi i don't know if you he's also ahmed i think yeah and his fatwa was like those of you that know the mauritanian very traditional maliki kind of scholar he also says about aeroplanes and all these things that of course

there's safety you know of going from airports to airports you're not going to get a you know safety was the concern so yeah i i i do feel it's the fact that um we see today in this day and age you know i used to you know i i remember once having a conversation with a very educated person and and he he was actually a doctor and um he was a it was a good friend as well and he said to me that oh i you know when i travel up north in england he said sometimes like like i'm there and my wife's about to

come or something or we're going to meet in a particular city let's say she was a professional as well i think she may have been a doctor as well so he he said oh what would do is he said to me like i'm in this place and i'm going to go to manchester and she's coming from so i'll tell her that from let's say birmingham don't come to manchester you drive to uh whether it's stoke or somewhere you drive to to this town and then i will drive to that town and then we'll drive to manchester or wherever it was and and i said well why is that and and he said well because you

know it doesn't make 48 miles and so she she could basically travel to this point and then i would travel down to that point and i remember thinking to myself like yes like that that doesn't make any sense by any any means yeah and and i feel that look i guess but i think you need to praise the person that he did what he thought was

yeah i was just going to say that you know people can do what they want and that devotion you've got to rate the devotion and the commitment it's like wow you know but but it's it's you know what you know it's it is a love for the deen which one must admire there is a devotion but it's a misplaced devotion that's that's all it is so it's that you know i get it in may allah forever increase these people in blessings that they do have an immense love for the deen and they want to carry it out to the letter i mean let's say that was the ruling let's say

it was in islam the prophet had said it like that most of us still would be like yeah who's going to do that just come straight to here and we'll but so you see that these people do go out of their way but it is a misplaced love right yeah because it just creates hardship and it's not even from islam in that sense it's just the opinion of some men along the way who'd given their interpretation yeah i i think that is really a cool thing to really bring this whole thing together and wrap it up on dr this that people really you know in a lot of this

uh what is deemed sometimes misogyny in these fatawa or these things and sometimes things may be like that i'm not saying there's never you know never has there been a bad apple or things like this but in a lot of the cases people it's not that they were evil it's that they were just trying to arrive at what they thought you know from a devotion perspective was the message of islam and and maybe they missed the mark on on many cases maybe they maybe they did but it's not to hate on the people is it dr saab it's not just kind of yeah this is a beautiful thing that you have said you

see people uh they do it out of devotion out of sincerity you could differ with them i mean they could differ with you and we could differ with them but the point is that they were doing it uh what did the thought was the right thing and they were i think very sincere and i think we should lord them for this and praise them for this and this is also one thing which brings us together as humankind that we can have differences of opinion uh but the thing that binds us together is the search for the truth is to seek the truth so any person who is seeking the truth in a sincere way is a person who has to be valued regardless of what he or she would do yeah and and i think that's the

the beauty is that you see i think it's the hallmark of a mature mind that we can on one hand we can appreciate a passion and a devotion and a sincerity but on the other hand we can also by that token we we can see not to necessarily blind follow but to say look our loyalties ultimately to allah and his messenger and you know sure you know you know there's a lot of passion and sincerity here and we admire that in its place but just because of that we're not going to necessarily blindly follow it we're going to look at

where allah his messenger and muslim and wealthy kind of lie just as emotions are important devotion is important understanding is also equally important so we would request people to understand what the prophet and the almighty is telling us and to reason out by i mean in that understanding otherwise if you just take whatever it comes to you uh you might end up i mean following not something which god never wanted to follow so it's like understanding first and then being devotional yeah well that's a very very important point yeah i mean we've taken up so much uh of

your time today doctor honestly i i love these conversations seriously they're so in it's you know so much enlightened from them so shukran is there something you'd like to bring today's discussion to a close with some words that you'd like to kind of wrap this with i think that the the quran at least on two occasions has said this uh uh these words we say that

and in both of which imply the fact that mankind has been created from from a single pair adam and eve and adam and eve are mentioned in a way in which they are at par with each other there's no discrimination so to speak with regard to their human construct so one important message is that as human beings although this is a sort of a cliche and all of us do think yes we are equal human beings but the fact is that we treat women or uh i mean they could be our sisters that they could be our women i mean they could be our mothers they could be our daughters uh they could be

our sisters they in a i mean in a slightly condescending way in uh at times in a very very way that we would think that they are secondary to us and that maybe they have been created to uh to serve the needs of men and i think this this notion is still at the back of our minds although it has been defined although we have traveled uh very far away from this but still this notion that man is or as a person is superior to a woman has its its underpinnings even today and we can find its reverberations so i think it's like a question of soul searching that if we do believe it in

our mind then it should reflect in our actions so what i think is that yes we do believe it in our minds but it does not fully translate into our actions so while accepting the fact that we are equal but we do behave at times that i mean we do tend to think that men are superior so it's like soul-searching it's like re-examining it's like revisiting our attitudes and trying to bring our attitudes in line with the concept that we all agree upon yeah wow that's so true uh sugar and uh doctors are for that and it is very true that we that people we as a collective we

carry so many biases and so many and so many blind spots that we're not necessarily thinking about right yeah and you know give us all the insight and it's a beautiful verse that you selected there because one of those verses actually we created you from what is the feminine yeah and it's it's it's interesting because you know what does that mean and so that's a whole discussion but in that verse which comes on several occasions that we created you from a

single soul but here the soul is feminine enough but yeah so may allah could you know shower us with his grace and enlighten our hearts from his knowledge i mean i just want to say firstly to you dr saab shukran for really taking your time out um it's it's an honor as always and i'll look forward to as many more of these as we can get from you inshallah and to the viewers i'll uh be leaving a description and also a the contact details for you doctors if that's okay i'll leave the same contact details so

you can i'll leave a whatsapp number um if you do want to get in touch with dr zaab and he does he has an incredible and a profound passion for poetry english poetry i i love the poems you do share them regularly very very profound so may allah keep you always blessed i mean i'll share that in the description if you if you do want to leave a comment in feel more then you're more than welcome to do so if you want to reach out to me you're more than welcome on either instagram or you can go to patreon.com forward slash and connect with me via that uh so

from me people and dr saab once again to zach thank you very much it was a pleasure and honor to be with you