Shaykh AbdulRahman Ghauri | Seminaries, Shrines & Sunni-ism | MindTrap#66 | Mufti Abu Layth

[Music] [Music] assalamualaikum let me just we welcome back with another episode of mind trap i'm just going to check that we are live and the sound is coming through i'm just i can see that it seems to be blasting its way through let me just adjust that so i'm not deafening anyone right um let me just bring up your

comments and make sure that we can that you guys can can hear me is the volume coming through okay i take it it is an esteemed guest that you saw abdul rahman gauri all the way from germany a young esteemed scholar we're going to get into

some incredible conversation with so let me just bring on to assalamu alaikum all right [Music] finally i apologize for the delay for anybody that was waiting as always there's technical issues these technical issues follow us around now it's an honor to to be here it's an honor to be here thank you very much how are you most welcome as as the viewers can see look a young

dashing scholar all the way from germany we have to add the super the dashing looks no matter what time of day it is day or night look at the yeah they're used to this because of you so all right you laid the foundation so people scholars like us get respect with these ears

so right sure uh right i just said uh does it sound okay like yeah i yeah this sounds fine i'm just let me just check that uh um right that people can hear if there's any issues with the sound from shaykh abdul rahman do let us know otherwise it seems uh fine and shukran those of you tuning in clicking like clicking share and sending your your love much appreciated people uh right so abdul rahman if we can i'd love to get a brief kind

of uh navigation of your journey um so you're uh you're you're from frankfurt germany um that's where you're you're raised and then you go off to study in a mother's if you could just briefly navigate us through that journey of yours into the islamic sciences yeah sure um for inviting me and uh and everyone who listens of course uh it's an honor so um yeah of course it's important to know where someone comes from and what the journey has been you know especially

academically so of course that's important you know i i grew up in frankfurt i mean raised in frankfurt my parents are immigrants um which came to frankfurt and like my dad has been here for like 50 years so he's been from from the very early very early workers and stuff so um yeah so i grew up here and when i was about i think uh eight years old i started doing heath that means memorizing the quran and i used to go to the local mosque you know and start you know doing memorizing quran and

stuff it took me about about two and a half years so i was 11 when i finished memorizing the quran okay yeah so after that um of course you know no arabic or stuff or anything of that sort of that time so i didn't know what i understood but it is like that of most of those most of the kids don't know what they actually read you know in that age so uh it was normal so um i memorized the quran alhamdulillah and then at the age of 14 i left um to the ulum yeah 1415.

so that basically i shifted myself to london my dad sent me there and it was like a private school a private institution where i did school schooling and you know the some of you might be familiar with the madrasa system in england so i started here um you know and i i studied there uh for like about five years five five years um and uh for my last and from for my for the last year i actually after that i finished and um went to makkah and i did you know i tried to get into the

union alhamdulillah i got in there and then you know my teachers advised me over there you know you should because you have a foundation you should basically go to the private scholars and you know do the private courses of which we offer some of the some of the scholars which are in the uni also offer private courses you know for people who are advanced in their studies so um i did that so yeah alhamdulillah so i um after that there was no stopping there were a lot of scholars from south

africa and different other countries which i had a good connection with and i started studying with them so uh yeah that's how the journey has been now if you don't mind mind me asking how old are you now now i'm 29 20 29. embarrassing us we feel we feel senile now up yes um i feel like i should just apply for my pension and get it over and done with it's you know the thing is i started giving talks um because you have to

understand one thing in germany uh the islamic um the whole islamic system the islamic infrastructure yeah the whole islamic environment has not been as maybe successful you would call it as england and united states of america you know it's been very different so like in germany they're quite um you know they're very lenient and they're not as advanced in having islamic centers islamic kindergartens or these kind of things they don't have that so what we had is uh we had the need of having someone giving

talks in germany and that's why i came into confrontation of giving talks when i was 15 years old already so i had to give talks when i wasn't even a scholar so yeah so so the pressure was immense like because a lot of people do give talks but they're not scholars so you know there is no uh even right now if you like a lot of people in germany still don't know what a real islamic scholar would be so for them everyone who's done a year maybe in mecca they'll be like okay he's a sheikh

and you're like what you know because the the word sheikh or the word islamic scholar isn't hasn't got any kind of patent or you know any nothing which actually you know secures its meaning so everyone can be a scholar an islamic scholar in that sense so uh that makes a big problem and of course then i started giving talks very early in mosques and everything then i was a khatib for the friday prayer in german you know so people can you know so that's how the journey started and i've been you know blessed up and down always so yeah um

i was going right and for your your areas of interest as you were studying the islamic sciences uh so your islamic studies sorry just to is probably it spans over a decade it goes from i mean excluding the hif the the army and then following your kind of travels as you went abroad okay wow so i would say 12 years now 12 years and the areas that you found yourself gravitating towards were hadith studies you know that was something which i

really really because again um if you if you're put in a position like fatwa was one thing which i didn't have a choice to like for example when i was 15 people used to come to me because they knew he was one year in madrasa they used to come and they're like oh how do you do this and that and i was like i'm i'm a kid and i didn't know but i was expected to know and that's the reason alhamdulillah i'm very well trained in all

yeah because people you have to imagine american guy comes and he wants to know the maliki masala now i i don't know the money was like i don't know even at that time so i was i had to know what the malik could say i had to know what the things say um and uh always i remember in madrasa uh there was a lot of like if there were like classes islamic jewish buddhist classes for everyone i remember the of course because it was a hanafi uh leaned on madrasa they used to talk about the hanafi fight and i used to say about what does imam shafe you say and he's like he says that's this and that and i'm

like but what does he mathematics say and he's like what's your problem you know and i was like and i was like and i was like yeah because i'm you don't understand when i go back they ask me they do ask me and i have to know because in england it's hanafi dominant somewhere yeah it is yeah yeah yeah but over here it's not so i'm like i need to know and they used to be like oh you just you know they're just asking too much you just want to ask too much and you don't have you have a bad habit of asking the teacher is disrespecting the teacher but you know i used to ask uh in that time i used to ask a lot of stuff about different madahip but um yeah

because people expected me to know so the fatwa interest came because i had to know so after a point of time when i you know finished and for me i didn't really finish until now so the research keeps going um but i fatwa was one thing i had to learn how to give a fatwa how to write a fatwa so even if no one would come to me i would have learnt it anyway because people come all the time and ask masada you know sure uh right a bit of a random one that english i'm really is this just something because everybody speaks

generally english this well in in germany or is this something you picked up if you have realized i have a british accent but that is because when i came to england i didn't know english i didn't even know i didn't know english at all so when i came in i actually absorbed the english like they used to call me freshy in that room used to be like you german hitler freshy i used to like be i used to be you know because we were kids of course you know kids are kids it doesn't matter if it's an islamic school or a western school or like normal school or state school or boarding school kids are kids so of course i was

the new guy and i was from germany and i didn't know english so they were like oh you don't know english you're fresh back and this and that so of course my english actually um developed whilst in the uk developed in the uk but then again i have to say i had a really bad slang being in uk because you speak slang you know okay and when i went for further studies to different countries to italy and to um to uh hungary i did went to budapest as well to university yeah you know to do a normal degree and stuff so when i went there my english became kind of international but i still have a british accent on me so you picked up you picked

it up no i just thought wow you know all this this conversation is in english and your english is very good and i thought well okay maybe is this because everybody in germany speaks english as well actually they don't they don't okay wow because because what in a in a culture if you um i analyzed it a few times um a society speaks english if it's a non-speaking non-english speaking society then the only reason a society could speak english is because that society has entertainment in english like for example holland and the

netherlands are really really good um example like uh my sisters live over there and they speak extremely good english because um when they grew up all of the series of fresh prince of king of queens they were all in english with dutch subtitles yes small so they pick up english really really fast yeah english to be fair uh i mean it's it's because of of the kind of status that it holds and you know it's the international language language of the internet and the language of so people in many countries

do speak in europe unlike in england where they only speak it's interesting that you know you couldn't get by in england with french uh but you could get by in france with english and so yeah so that's that's these are interesting uh or in other uh ex yeah you could pick another countries like countries like france or maybe also germany yeah i would have thought to be fair germany they speak less english compared to netherlands because the entertainment in germany is completely in german every film is completely dubbed in german that's why they're so good in uh um

like that's why the synchron uh synchronization business and dubbing business in germany is one of the best in the world in dubbing they're really good like for example just give you a small example like if you hear if a german normal guy in my my age would hear just if you give him headphones and he would hear the voice the dubbed voice the dubbed voice of leonardo dicaprio he would recognize it like this okay because he's been hearing that dubbed voice his whole life but he doesn't know his original voice so they're very like dubbed uh centric and that's why the english suffers a bit but they do still speak epic it's epic

nevertheless so coming to this right so you've uh i want to come uh uh back to you in in a moment your studies your in your kind of um let's just say your exploration and the journey and the experience while studying but but we'll come to that in a moment after studying you've um gone back you know you've graduated you've pursued further studies you've traveled to saudi arabia you've kind of done a bit you've learned you enrolled in um in makkah you were there for a little while you met you know did some private studies

and you've come back to uh frankfurt germany are you out of curiosity are you pursuing any uh secular studies there or or no or what's just to get an idea yeah i did i did i did a business degree uh but i didn't finish it to be fair uh because after six semesters i um basically after after like two years i left that i started again online but then i left that as well because i was i was making i was making i was living good for myself with some businesses that i had um which then you know yeah what's what's a business degree if you can just

do business i i do regret it to be honest i do regret not to have finished it off you know and i might who knows i might be because these days you just have to enroll yourself online and then just give an exam and that's i might still do that i mean you're very young yet i mean you haven't even reached 30 so you know you've got so much of the path ahead of you yet there's many things to do so okay so talk to us since you know this whole um because you've you've spent an incredible

portion of your life in the is if you know in this islamic platform of of learning engaging with islam behind the scenes in in the sense of learning it and developing and this whole journey arguably since your fifth you know so almost two decades now right for mo you you've come back you know you don't appear as uh not in a judgmental way but i'm just saying as people would notice that look oh you know somebody said in the comments oh he doesn't appear like somebody from tarzan is army uh you know you've got the the hairstyle style

you know style you got the uh you know the slick haircut the stylish kind of beard going on the the cool dress scent as we can see that super slick shirt right there so right now this how has this uh two things i mean i'll come back to the second part of uh other people but for now how has this been for you because has it has it kind of been very difficult as a scholar coming back not fitting a a kind of a profile an anticipated profile or is it

pretty easy in in in germany because i know over here in the uk you'd get a bit of a hard time i did like uh if i you know i remember you shared that picture how did i change from that look to that look remember that yes yes same with me i could do a video same as you with a picture and people won't recognize me and when i came back i was i used to look extremely different my hairstyle was different like i was different me as a person i was different you know the way i used to dress was different uh i always wanted to had a had a niche for like being stylish but at that time i was just i think too

overwhelmed because of course in madrasa you do get isolated you know you're completely alone you're complete uh completely in a zone where you like you don't have that much contact to people outside you don't get a lot of you know especially your phones but you know you can sneak in phones and stuff of course but you are very isolated of course from the community so um when i came back i was looking extremely different and to be fair i have to say that i think people would know that but again to um rectify of course my my state of mind has changed immensely in

those in the even when i graduated or when i finished from the darshan azami part and then when i went to uh you know and after the five years i did there and then i went to further my studies to you know uh to makkah and then from there i did the online studies and went to a few other scholars and stuff so everything i did i went i really stepped up my game or maybe people would say i stepped down but in my understanding i you know some people

[Laughter] i didn't go there yeah that's an insider inshallah but whatever okay so so what so what i was saying is i did evolve in my understanding alhamdulillah to something very different like for example i give you an example i used to actually believe in the mother mother i didn't believe it from my heart but i believed a lot sorry i used to actually think or believe that when they used to tell us okay if you don't have one fist of a beard

you are actually a faster so basically you are an openly open sinner which sins 24 7. and i used to actually think that is something which is true although my the back of my mind always used to tell me someone be be a sinner 24 7. if there are so many scholars and other people like in turkey or egypt who don't have beards you know and then they used to come with some ridiculous were you aware of the ichthala from the philippines in the beginning in the beginning in the studies i remember they never used to tell us you know of course they didn't you know but then again i remember when i asked a teacher with all due respect i asked him what does the you know the

different madhyab say and he said um imam he actually said he said that and i was like why would you do that why would you not say it and he because he was afraid that people did he say it's because it's a secret no because he actually said that so i was i was quite think but of course some teachers would would say that alhamdulillah it's not like that but you know it was it was it was very of course because it was uh it was compulsory to keep a beard in that school so if you had if you cut your beard you're going to be expelled so it was very hot would

they if you trimmed your beard and you because you because you were in the madrasah here in the uk in london was it yeah strict was it a strict okay it was like it was strict if you compare it if you if you compare it to some others i i've heard uh not i don't want to take any name but i've heard there's some other rooms in england were even more strict than ours sure but um it was strict enough so if you if you trimmed your beard like let's say how you've got it now you'd be expelled

you you should know that no i thought maybe as a foreigner they might give you a bit of leniency they might be like it's not like pakistan or something it's uh they were quite strict with that you know it's like in these kind of things they were strict people used to try to still do it somehow so no one uh and then they say darin nicole you know it doesn't come so i'm sorry i have some hair growing problems and that's that's my one you know i said i said to the so in pakistan they were a bit lenient with the foreigners section in karachi and you know they'd let us like it was one of those uh la safe you

know this kind of thing like okay they won't ask us any questions we just but what they would do is when the exam time would come if they would inspect all the beards and if your beards are trimmed they wouldn't let you sit the exams so then you can't move to the next year until you you kind of flop and fail so i remember at that time even though i did have a beard and but many not many but some of the foreigners would just slightly they would trim and just neaten up the beard and keep it to a certain length um actually to be fair it was probably about this kind of length just probably a bit more around the size now i've got it around the sides as well but so uh we

just neaten it up and and they could tell now that's definitely been trimmed you know so i i so i said i said oh i did a laser operation on my bed and then i had to come up with all this science to explain it i said uh you know you have these hair follicles and because i'd gone on a because what it was was i went to the uk on a summer break or something i came back and i said oh you know when i went i did the surgery [Laughter] so they were like and i was like yeah like what they do is they map it out and i was explaining how the follicles work and i go what they do

is i go there's a portion of the follicle that keeps the hair alive there's another portion that makes it grow and they just i go they kill with the laser the part that makes it grow [Laughter] so they were like hmm [Laughter] and you know what they said they said we we want so one of the teachers accepted it and the other said no i want proof that this can happen what so what it was check this out what it was a friend of mine from from london so

something i don't know like he had some issues so he had to go to the hospital so in karachi he had this big hospital called hospital or something and so we're in the and he had to go for something so when he's there he wanted to speak to a you want to ask about like in that day and age the hair transplant thing was quite new and and he was losing a bit of it and he's just curious he just wanted to since he's in hospital he just thought you know i'll just ask a consultant and it's quite easy in pakistan so he went there and he kind of like got this appointment and i went with him so this guy the doctor the consultant happened to have lived in england for a little while in birmingham and he's pakistani but he stayed here for a

little while so he's like oh you guys are from the uk i lived in birmingham and i was like oh well i'm from birmingham and so anyway we connect and he tells whatever details and i said oh doctor i said could you do me a little favor i said uh if i could take your number and provide it to one of our mothers and this is the theory of ran past them on the freezing the hair follicles so i go if they call you could you just say that yeah that's yeah yeah in the uk they have stuff like that so so he did and they actually called him i couldn't believe it

[Laughter] it was smart you know what what the funny thing is i get you but you know people must be thinking what the hell where where did they study what was that you know i don't know if i've told you i've told that story like i actually about the beard part i was invited to a vet wedding of uh very wet mashallah good move this up and uh you know oh another another mufti not birmingham i thought i was going to say which which one of my weddings did i invite you to [Laughter] yeah i keep forgetting i need to improve my memory

so i went to london all the way from germany and at that time i didn't have this kind of beard i had my beard was quite short it was like because it was after madrassa so it was like how do i put it it was like like very i get it like i'm kind of kidding yeah it was like it was like it's not like it wasn't like a three-day beard or something it was more but it wasn't like this so you could tell that i don't have that much you know so what i actually did yeah now check my state of mind out at that time this must be like eight years ago or something so what happened then i actually i was so terrified that everyone's gonna say look

at his face he doesn't have a that one fist beard anymore so what i did what's up i'm not i'm only saying this because your story was also ridiculous at least you said it on my face so i actually went to a shop in england okay in london and to a makeup shop i like they were like experts in you know for like masks and stuff okay and i bought a beard a fake beard a fake beard like for 150 pound or something wow okay so they

sticked it on so i but not like this one like it was just here like a goatee you know and over here i had here so what they did they put this on so i went to this wedding with the and i felt so embarrassed but i was like this is better did it look legit though did it look legit i don't think at all but but for me it was the best option to go now imagine myself was it did they just stick on like a blonde beard and it's like everything else

but it was like now i look back and i'm like how stupid was i that i actually did this to think that i have a one-piece beard what why would i do that because people would think well he's gone he's gone gumrah he's gone on the dark side of the power but weren't you still a student at the madras at the time no no no i wasn't oh you'd left madrasah oh right i thought you meant you were still there in the final year like two years after i left so i was like okay people would think that people would think that so i would never do that anymore of course but i was like look that's what i'm trying to do you were you know you were young and

you're still young but you you were young not about coming to your original question i have evolved a lot in the times that i have you know gained alhamdulillah the last 10 years and coming back to the original question also of course in germany people do judge you as well like they do say why is his hair like that like for example i was there was this one mosque i went to and they said things like believe in islam how can he start giving you that word to islam he actually said why why are his eyebrows so perfect or like eyebrows yeah now now that you say

yeah but they they do say that they do now that you draw our attention to it it's like [Laughter] you know people do say that kind of stuff a lot they do they because they say it's okay for us but why are you doing it they say that they're like you're meant to be a role model you're not allowed to be like that it's like i don't want to compare myself with allah but of course

[Laughter] but then you give an example of the prophets no no no but you know what day and age are we have we reached no i'm joking no you're giving a you're giving a good noble example yeah you know what i mean no but you know that's how people are they um they do that they of course they judge you upon your appearance of course so right okay do you so in fact the madrasa thing yes since we're speaking about it what are some highlights that really

stand out for you because you spent you know a bunch of years in a madrasa living there lodging the whole thing what kind of stands out for you the the this journey that part of the journey you know there is there is pros and contras everywhere you know i have to first of all i would like to say that pros and cons with every institution and everything i am very very very thankful to the to my assassin through my teachers because at the end of the day the of course after that i pursued my own studies and alhamdulillah no one uh know what my the the state of mind i have now i have alhamdulillah got to it but but at the end of the day these

people laid the foundation of knowledge the tools of knowledge to me of course arabic grammar you know and other things and some of the things the the teachers said you know i i'm highly and they were highly educated teachers like we have a lot of teachers we had which we had they were extremely educated and you know they were alhamdulillah very well read now of course they are now i got to understand they are an institution they can't go out of it so they are bound on some extent of course but i've been blessed in that sense but of course there are contrasts as

well like um like this is probably the best example like a lot of times people come to me after talks or a session and they say where did you study again you studied in london can you tell us the name of the madrasa i want to send my kid there as well now because i know the contras and i don't speak about them in public because i don't want to disgrace ever an islamic institution in a bad way but i also want them to know what they're getting into because it's a kid for god's sake um it's very tricky for me that's probably the hardest thing to answer because on

one hand i respect the institution and the the love and the good intentions behind it and the knowledge behind it but on the other hand there are a lot of contrast which you and i know which we won't do publicly to disgrace an institution of course but you have to address them you have to address them and that's when i address them with some people and of course sometimes it's really really really hard because sometimes you have parents which are very moderate and so moderate that if i tell them they expect me and the mother assad and the institution and islamic institution rightly so to be

extremely orthodox now because they expect us to be orthodox and very pure and uh let's when you're saying they expect you to be orthodox i mean what does that mean what do you mean by that i'm coming to it i'm coming to it like um they expect the mother assad to be a certain way the high standard of moral oh like very pious and piety and virtuous now when i tell them about the contrast of a madrasa sometimes there is a fear that these people will go of islam if they're very moderate of course i'm not talking about normal muslim who's like but but they do get shocked because

they're they're like oh my god what this happens in the madrasa suffer allah and how can this be right so they get very and i don't want that as well i don't want that i want their belief to be taken away from them so it's it's very hard but to answer your question is like um because alhamdulillah your audience is very mature i believe in that sense very much spectacularly mature you have shocked

so what i would say is of course the prowess the knowledge the teachers the environment is a good environment in the sense of that you do get to focus on things but then again do i believe it's good that people are completely on their own a lot of men alone with their soul what's that love [Laughter] what what this one yeah but i just said a bunch of men together and you just like so because it is an environment where a

lot of there are a lot of men okay a lot of men and uh they're together and it's like a boy's hostel or whatever and they won't see the the light they they don't see a lot of the world outside so when they i do believe that when they do go outside they do get it's not easy for them to handle sexuality i'm not talking about everyone i'm not okay there are cases of course but that's even in the you know even a lot of it's been there have been a lot of studies not just madrasa it's the same with church schools or like different if

you're like bound like enclosed in an environment segregation extreme segregation can lead to some perversion exactly because it's it's a very very long time and it's not easy so it's it is that is kind of one thing which i believe is a big country should be a bit more open so you are so you're free to talk to a woman and you know how to talk to a woman you know it's not like the first thing you think about a woman is like oh my god a woman that that thought makes you crazy or something you should be able to to be you know to live in a society you know you live in england so you you know you should be able to live

in a society where there is a mixed kind of gender because you find that don't you that with many religious people and this doesn't have to be madrasa people it could just be people who uh define themselves let's say as they are religious as in practicing or however they want to say now you find that many of them no i'm not saying all of them but there's many amongst them that the moment they interact with the opposite gender especially men towards women maybe women towards men as well but it's especially salient when men towards women

they seem to almost not know how to act like so they get really awkward they get really nervous uh and they make the other person nervous they you know like they'll be so let's say they're speaking to i've seen people at universities let's say they will speak to sometimes uh non-muslims fine but the moment they approach uh some won't even speak to non-muslim women fine but some may like maybe they're a bit used to okay this is a receptionist this is this this but the moment they speak to other women especially muslim they get all kind of

tense and awkward and it just it's like it's so awkward to just watch what's actually going on yeah and it's a very it's a very the conversation is it's just just very ordinary it could be something very formal even it's uh it's it's not of a sexual nature yeah yeah it is it is i'm completely with you and that is one thing which of course i i i believe is not right and the other thing i do the one that's one thing the sexuality part i believe that is something in madras which which i i would like to reform of course but it's not going to happen but whatever like i would like to see that in my lifetime but the other thing i

believe is um the doctrine part you know to to to be so narrow-minded in one kind of belief system to say whatever we say is right and everything else is wrong you know that it's this kind of doctrine is very isn't that's really just dogma isn't it yeah it's just it's actually that that is one thing which is also really not nice you know to to and again i i one thing i would i would um what they don't do is tell the students what you could do when you go outside what could you do with your knowledge

how can you execute it how can you give a benefit to the communities you're in so when they go out they're like okay let's just teach mukhtar five to seven because they don't know anything else to do or they become imam muslim and that's it so because they don't know how to handle the outside world and i think there should be maybe there are i don't know now about the situation in uk right now there should be classes how to execute because you've learned something for like so many years you should know how to execute it and the motherless has the responsibility to make sure how to integrate meaningfully what you've done but

on a trajectory you know yeah on on a path where you could possibly branch out so it doesn't have to so for example career options this is what yeah like a career option thing yeah because when that's something they don't do and uh you know islam in the the the execution of teaching people what to do with you and execution you keep saying you might freak out some of the people they might go yeah why does he want mother cells to have executions

you know and i remember it was the whole dressing part that was one thing which i i remember they were so strict i don't know i i don't know if i've ever you know there was this guy in our mother sir and i'll i'll never forget that that is true these are stories that i actually have literally i'm like like i still think back and i'm like you tell us what what's the story yeah what happened is what happened is i was because so for so people you would know that but people outside who don't know were watching what happens in madrasa if you're there you get off like every two weeks you get

one day off and every four weeks you get like the weekend off you know that is how it goes so every two weeks you get the you can go on saturday and come back on sunday every two weeks and every four weeks you can leave on a friday and come back on a sunday that is okay because i was from germany it didn't make sense to go home of course you know so people who are from other countries they used to stay or even people who were from cardiff at that time or some people who were from bristol they never used to go home so some people were from you know so people from pharaoh wouldn't do that because it was just too much of a hassle so what happened is there was this one one week and me and a friend of from norway

we went to play football or something and we went outside we were invited and we went to this you know very much and famous street in london's green street you know so we went yeah so in east london and we went there we had like football clothes on and we had like trousers and like a football jersey and we had our jupiter so the arab kind of you know rabies uh the shirts those long arab kind of yeah so we had them over our shoulder because we just came in at born in our hand now we're walking and there was this one guy who like was you know who saw us i think he was just pressing

his own or something but whatever um we didn't know who it was and we just went with it on monday when we you know when when the class starts there was this guy who came into my class and he said um you know my teacher wants to see her i nearly said his name but my teacher wants to see you and i was like okay so i went there because i was surprised because this guy wasn't my teacher because he used to teach his class the memorizing the quran class and i was in the alimia class i was in the because i already done the hips i already memorized the quran back in germany i was in the scholar islamic scholar classes so i was like why is he calling me so when i went there

the other guy from norway i think he wasn't there he was as well so he said he said berto and he just and his whole class was full because his his class was there and he's like i didn't expect this from you and i'm like what he was dead serious he was like a big guy you know like strict guy he was known to like beating up kids and stuff also so he was like very strict and he's like i didn't expect this of you i didn't know you have two faces and i'm like the hell is going on and you don't have to imagine me as a 15 year old guy i was like i was like terrified i was like what the hell did i do man and i was like i

don't know you know and he was like i saw you don't think i didn't see a man what happened and he's like i saw you on green street and he's like over here you have like uh uh sober and everything on and you have a dopey and you know you are a hat over there you didn't have a thobon you were acting western and he's like a hypocrite hypocrite and i was like what of the hypocrite is hypocrite of the quranic standard

of the quran you're a hypocrite of the quranic standard allah yes i was like what and he said yeah because you have two faces and how dare you coming here and showing two faces and going outside and being modern and uh you know how this and you you're supposed to be a go i feel good of you you're supposed to be a role model for people and you act western and this and that and i was like i said i was seriously i just stayed quiet and i was so terrified and i went and i was like at that time i was like i wish i could answer him right now but

i couldn't of course you know and now i'm like i swear there's some people who can't take them offset you know that some guys they don't have the stamina to take stamina no but you know they don't have the courage to take that it's kind of hasty and still stay in the same school and study they would just call their parents to say i don't want to be here i know a lot of guys who couldn't handle it that's tough stuff i don't think to be honest i think most people you know with the day and age having moved on as well we are in an age of a very sh a much shorter attention span now people require much more um

distraction they require to be engaged often like they they can't just sit there and it's too much now for the younger generation so this is also a rise in adhd which is probably uh another discussion but so people now the kind of madrasa lifestyle that you went through or and before you i mean i'm you know much older than you went that i went through these things that that's of a uh a very that's like almost a military-grade training it's not people it's very difficult we did get some parts a bit easier than others when we

were abroad because we were foreigners they did uh sometimes they give you a bit of they're not they're not still happy with it but they um you know that you you kind of get away with it still because you're referring to freedom to go out for example oh yeah oh yeah we could go out because one thing i didn't have i stayed like it was we had to it was like uh you know you see the difference there was because in pakistan in karachi as a foreigner you are deemed with a certain privilege like you know you're from these people are from america these people are from canada they're from the

uk there's there's like a privileged status to that so because of that you can you know you can get away with stuff you can go out even if you got caught with certain things but if you were a local uh you could still go out but they would be you know if you got caught let's say doing certain i don't know going to watch a movie for example you would be in serious trouble if you were a national local if you're a foreigner you'd probably just get told off and the you know you'd be they'd be like so disappointed in you and and then you

just have to say okay i'm never going to do it again and then they're just kind of letting you go but um that was a really really you know at that time like the story i just said that for example stay with me until today and i'm like how how dare you doing that to kids and how dare you saying these things what kind of islam do you pray and it's not even like if he would say something which is really a sin there is nothing absolutely nothing he could get that from you know it was like with the beard you can actually say at least some fukaha

you could say something at least with the beard of one but this stuff isn't really and so confining people to the the walls of an of an institute this is nothing from an actual islamic sense this is just an insecurity if perhaps people feel that look if they mix maybe they'll turn away from this and you know a huge part of this is as well institutionalization i don't know if you got it right i don't know because the the the what i was saying is he he was you know he was telling us off because of the clothes yeah yeah yeah

sorry yeah yeah you're right yeah he was like why are you wearing that why would you no clothes we you know in our ins uh madrasa once in dora hadith i mentioned this before write this story that there was uh we were in class and in our class i think there were almost 90 students so they're about 85 to about 90 i can't remember the exact number now but they um now um this one time that the kind of uh um what was he like the the deputy of the entire madrasa he was one of our hadith used to teach us bukhari so and he was in charge of the foreigners section he was the nazim you

know the uh so the actual head of the entire local national section so he came in and he goes right he goes oh and he's really annoyed and he goes we he goes that's their students here but he and he's really strict and he goes i mean his his voice is you know they're they are they're not really students they are devils and we have now caught them because that we caught their disgusting

act and we've found and everybody's thinking what's happened and who have they caught and what were they doing and and we're thinking the worst of the worst we're thinking what's bloody happen here because the way the build up the drum roll is you know now we caught these shape ons they were shayateen just trying to deceive us that they are talaba and blah blah blah and this now we're going to watch the consequences are going to be so severe and and it happened to be this uh sri lankan kid

i say kid i mean they they were probably about you know about 20. uh there are these two sri lankan guys and and and he's asking for one of them the other one had one gum or something go where i get up and they that you know the guy's up and we're thinking what the hell you know he must have god knows what did he do what did he do what did he do and it turns out that on his day off which was just jummah over there we get friday off after jumai in the uh towards the evening he'd gone and he um sat in some cafe that had a tv and he was just wearing jeans and he was just watching i think he was actually

watching football or something and they were talking about the jeans this was the so i was thinking what was the what what was the act they go it's wearing jeans and they you know what they did they shaved his head as a punishment and they um they obviously i think i can't remember whether they actually because he was now quite grown up so i can't remember whether they actually hit him but i think they with him they shaved his head and you know he had to beg for whatever and then they eventually let him stay but um

i was like whoa okay you know there are a lot of what's up this is i was thinking this is fun wearing jeans people would if normal you know uh people would know what kind of mindset some of sometimes is so embarrassing for me like for example we had this now we now we're talking about after my studies and stuff like we're talking about like six years ago or something there was this massive and you probably know his name but i'm not going to take his name because he's massively pop like especially in the islamic world which is like for ulama he's massively known for normal people he might not be because he's like a doctrine he's uh he's a sheikh ladies from south africa

and he's a massive guy like he's he's got his mother probably one of the probably the biggest in south africa so he is extremely um well read in bukhari and [Music] so as i said very respectful he came to germany and i received him uh with my father because alhamdulillah my father has a lot of respect in that sense uh you know my father received him and stuff and we hosted him and everything so there was this guy we were sitting there and my you know there was a lot of food and he was there and he came from the airport everyone was sitting there and there was this guy who was like helping out you know

washing everyone's hands and you know these kind of things like very beautiful give me your hands let me wash your hands this is so beautiful this is the bridge would it be like yeah this is getting a bit is it just me or is this slightly weird at this stage [Laughter] so it's like basically he was you know it's like this i'm just going to show you for everyone so you don't it's just

pouring water they're washing their hands here so basically he imagine he's just pouring no no i get i get i'm just joking i'm joking i'm joking i'm thinking for the audience because you led them to a wrong track so basically um he was doing that and he was bringing the food and everything and helping out so he you know and i was he was talking to the guy and and he was talking to our some other imam sub which was our local imams up uh the local imam of the masjid and he was talking to the local imam of the mosque this big sheikh and he's talking he's like uh yeah i once met this guy and this and this happened and

then he said and no no the other guy the imam of the mosque was telling him i once this guy came to me in germany and he asked me this question and the sheikh he is leaning back and he's like oh masha'allah but he's like oh such a question he's like how was he was he like a religious person or was it like uh um was he like a guy who didn't know anything about religious like someone who hasn't appeared he's like well dini

and now the guy who is you know do putting the water on his hands didn't have a beard and i looked at him and i was like you made it extra awkward you went no no no no i did it and then everybody in the room goes just stop moving freeze and you know the guy i swim i felt so bad because he got red and he was and he's brown it's hard to get red when you're brown and he just got red you know and i was feeling so embarrassed like what must he be thinking that am i you know how can you say someone who doesn't know some who's not pissed at all like a guy

who doesn't have a beard yeah it's a very superficial way of looking at something it's unbelievable i want to ask here that look is because look okay there is look naturally a huge amount of the knowledge you learned uh the whether it's information the environment even the the you know there must have been people that were profoundly um you know profoundly virtuous as well now this madrasa phenomena it obviously has that there are

incredibly uh i mean numero i mean there's so many good things as well that are nested or or unrested in the madrasa phenomenon so from whether it's going to be the actual what is being taught to the breadth of the um you know the top not the topics but the the subjects like very vast to exactly so so as an example for people that don't know um many parts of the arab world when um when i visited certain mahads and different they do have subjects as well

obviously they have a branch you know they have certain things but let's say islamic institutes aren't as common now therefore people may study islam in a university or they may study islam in in like a college or something and you really cannot get the breadth the vastness of the curriculum in these places the curriculum they do give you it's very vast like i remember they were like okay two years it's only arabic first okay and after those two years you have to decide in which kind of way you want to go well you do want to go into sharia exactly and then you just get that or

you go into hadith people do two years in that study and they think in that sense the darshan is army which has been from the indo-pak you know kind of the ubuntu uh system they it is you know very vast it is very vast and and you will also and there are people like we when we were there for example i mean there's there are several but let's say to name them uh somebody coming straight to mind i've spoken about him before uh aziz rahman was a great scholar he is on some i think so he's some people have recorded him on a few youtube events as

well he was a he taught us he taught me privately the mata he taught of imam malik he used to teach bukhari in in in a girl's institution incredibly you know it's not even right to say pious he was just this all striking figure that just warranted respect and he he just you know from the moment he would walk into the class to how he would teach hadith with the kind of love the passion and the care for the students

and he was somebody very humble and very you know he didn't uh he wasn't fussed about things he wasn't you know he he just being in his company was something like wow okay i've met people like this in my life that have studied and they have knowledge they weren't just he wasn't just a you know like a mulvi saab in the sense he he he the you know the man knew the sheikh knew ayla tarmidi like this he knew the much of rajal he would speak of the italian he used to teach tarmithi which has in it

he had a passion for what he was doing and a piety which is like wow so you do see these you know you're amongst these people as well and you you are amongst the other things as well you know you're seeing other things and it's like we had we had this one scholar maybe you've heard of him he's uh i i believe he's underrated because he's not that fame because he doesn't want to be fame as well if he had a lot of opportunities but he doesn't want to be that famous there was scholar in our mother hadith there was muftiya and i don't know if you've heard of him he is like i had uh unfortunately i didn't

have the privilege to study under him uh because i went for further studies then but then i you know him he was the shaykh holidays and the way he taught bukhari i don't think i have not met any i'm not talking about just about knowledge also the knowledge but the way he taught him if i tell you you'll be like no one does that because what he did he used what did he do you've got us curious now exactly the regular time starts at eight what he used to do he used to start after fajr okay and used to tell the students is com don't not compulsory if you want you

can come but because he wanted not you know he didn't want that you know a lot of people just just read because they don't have the time and they they don't elaborate and he didn't want so so for people that don't know that what it is is that in the final year dora hadith it is uh an incredibly profound year if somebody that knows islam and studied islam can get dota hadith um you know on the what can we say on in the resources of experience if they can have that it's basically a whole year where you

study the major books of hadith mostly cover to cover and what sheikh is saying here is that because some of them the teachers get pressed for time that they they need to finish the syllabus and so then they start just you know just they start like really just you know whizzing through a certain amount zooming through just really ripping through it and and that then compromises the quality of what's being done because they don't have a choice they have to do i also

because it gives you more so what he used to do is to stop before fajr and then he used to start and then after the class finished he used to start the afternoon again like by phone and then in the evening again so the buhari students or the for they were like occupied with him and he used to like this guy he and that is one guy who used to say every hole like from ahmedabad humble to thing to that he used to say every call and that is one thing which i actually used to admire about him in that sense uh unfortunately that was one thing i missed out but but i have to say that people like him he's like

i remember he used to write letters to mufi usmani that if he had made a mistake and stuff you know so he he was extremely knowledgeable so people like that you just we did you know in our hadith when we did it there was this there was a period um so i i i don't know whether it was it was definitely by the last semester but uh i can't remember whether it was in the second batch or not but where it became like a full day event so you had class anyway class time let's say classes began at something like i think normally i think they used to begin at about half

eight or something now and you would study till up till after time then you'd have a break and then it was revision after muslim but then it became that after maghrib you had a class uh you had food then after food you had a class up until midnight and then class a class would begin in the morning not at quarter to seven that would go on and so there was this non-stop and it was that that part was just exhausting like i would we were just because your time spent off the brain yeah and you're physically exhausted like i just remember just sitting sitting and you're reading and you're listening and and then it's like

the next class next class and you're like ah i need to get up and i did i did i did regret is uh that they what i don't like is they don't teach the mother that you know they don't they don't uh mate malik is not pushed very you know i if if i do the syllabus i would put it in front of everything you know and uh no of course there is no there is no question about the uh or authenticity and you know you see the mata when we were doing dora they they did read it they read it really kind of swiftly because they it was more

a rasam a kind of like a you know it's just that the ritual of it but that teacher uh uh who we uh had he would teach us termiti and he was really good how you mentioned like he would always mention i mean termed the in in the book mentioned anyway but he would expand on that and give all these evidences and um now i asked him to actually teach me privately uh i would like to you know do the mata with and this is not see this is not a custom in pakistan it's not like it's really weird that you go to a

shirt and say you know i'd like to read this book with you in the arab world this is very normal and for people who are interested in fact it's the norm that's why i said they told me to go privately to them you know ah right yes yes and here in in the indo-pak world it's incredibly it's almost borderline weird like why why would you want to do that yeah like why do you want to do that so i said i want to do this and i said to him look i'd come to your house you know when you're off i'll come in my kind of break time like with the the ass of time would have and i'll just read it to you there and and he he did he he kind of like uh you

know he he agreed and and i was really grateful so we we do get these wow you know there is this commitment there is a passion i've spoken in the past about a teacher uh i had um and he just had this passion that and he kind of brought the place to life and and the small question sheikh did you have the honor or to study abu dhabi and uh oh he was he was from binodi town and he used to teach there so so right so you you have um

so you have binori town which is in karachi which is uh kind of attributed to maulana yusuf binori and then you have jamia binoria which is like a 15-minute drive from the so binori town was in karachi in this place i forgot the the actual name but they used to call it guru mander that the place was called that but we were in jamaica's in an industrial estate called site s-i-t-e and so um ah madras has a separate mother although it's it's only the name is the

affiliation it's not really affiliated to the other madrasa it's just mufti naim who was the who set this up was a graduate from the but he just set up his song yeah so we weren't uh ambinoria where we were jamming it had a lot more accommodation for foreigners and they were a lot more you know it's better if you're a foreigner you would enjoy it far more oh no he was in the town he was there he was there i was going to say that look there's a question here yeah sure that you see this question is of institutionalization because don't you feel you know some

i got into a discussion a little while back as well and people sometimes say they say to me that you know why don't you open an institute like i'd say they they say to me that oh why didn't you open an institute and and i've had this discussion with several people and i've just said that look there is something you know institutes i get it that they are sure like maybe on a madrasa level uh like maybe in countries like let's say in pakistan in a certain era certain parts of the world they work differently but institutions the thing about them

is that they you know a person they they almost take a person's life and soul you know like they you have to give it your whole they completely consume you and it almost in a uh if i can you know as it were a darwinian sense almost they become an organism in unto themselves that then you see its survival becomes paramount and even precedes the objectives for why it was set up so it's

it's like if you bear with like what i'm trying to say is let's say you set up a madrasah because you want to teach because you have this passion i want to teach people i want to kind of i want to kindle this flame this love for learning in the hearts of people but what happens is you set up an institute now no sooner do you know it that the institution institutionalization has kicked in that you need for example you have a syllabi you have uh curriculum you know you have things that need to be met there's bureaucracy all of a sudden there needs to be results

the whole thing starts then there needs to be funding how do you how do you keep these things alive so you need to now somehow let's say you know source funding for this now you're preoccupied with that expenses go up the there's competitions there's now before you know it let's say 10 years into it five years five to ten years into it the institution has almost a life of its own as an institute that it needs to survive you are now subservient to the institution

of course in keeping it alive yeah of course it's it's almost as a as though it is a living entity as though it is an organism that is that needs to to to kind of you know battle of the survival of the fittest and it will it what it will do is your very purpose while you set it up will be sacrificed for the for the organism now yeah of course because at the end of the day you have to look you what they don't realize they just don't i don't know why they never ask them themselves that question

when let's say uh he was the guy who uh you know founded uh that at that time so like 150 years ago so he started they say the famous story he started under a tree and then you know it started with one tale but one student and one teacher and you know became this massive kind of institution around the world and same goes with berealism you know when they started and stuff it's everywhere in the world they have branches and institutions and everywhere now the thing is what they don't realize is

they did that but they the the point of it was they just wanted to teach deen whatever they believed in okay sunni islam so the thing is what they don't realize by doing what they did and keeping people institutionalized they are actually going against the very thing they started of free thinking if you think about it that way no of course of course yeah but but yeah but what they also do is they make you bound they they they like like i remember this

this shaykh and he's like um you know the same shirt i was talking about from that brexit hadith i remember my dad was sitting there and he's like you know i told him and he said about me and he's like masha'allah you know i am really proud of you sunday gives talks in german and stuff over here so really proud masha allah and he said you know i always tell them don't be afraid of anyone you can talk whatever my dad said that to the sheikh he said i'd always tell him just say whatever you want you know no one's here to you know to cut off your tongue in the sense of that you're not allowed to say these kinds of that that thing so just say whatever you want just say what is hack

what is true so the guy was like and my dad said he just said like for a second he's like forget believism or forget being at the ubuntu or something just say hak and he just say the truth and the guy was like yeah but what are you trying to say of course you know so he got triggered like that because someone was speaking he wasn't even speaking against the institution but for just a second he was like how can you say speak for hack and not for the obanism it's the same that there is no way around it no yeah i you see when i'm when i'm saying institute said when i'm saying institute

i'm transcending even madrasas you see any institution this this is the issue with institutionalization regardless of whether it could be a university it could be a college it could be a mahad it could be a madrasa it could be other institutions what happens is this this almost like a you see symbolically or metaphorically it's like you breathe life into it now that it becomes culturally alive like there's this really interesting book as well called darwin's cathedral and it's speaking about

social uh organisms like this like culture for example or different things which are that they as they they behave as though it is a living organism except it's it's something else so the institute becomes like a living organism that needs to to be fed to be alive and i don't just mean fed by money obviously money is a part of it but it will then the person themself will be expendable at so so for example you could spend your whole life setting up an institution and at the end of it

you see the institution is you will ex you know you it will it will consume your whole life and then somebody will just come and pick it up and carry on with it it's not like uh you see it is it becomes bigger than you now now that may seem in a good way like people may think well oh that's because you know that's a good thing but in the other way it it's not just bigger than you it's bigger than the purpose for which it was set up its survival becomes integral as opposed to it's uh obviously they're going to say well the the reason this institution exists is for a b and c

but it's survival it's like saying a person is a doctor sure and he wants to help people but first and foremost there is a survival instinct of staying alive of course because because he is he is bound to the institute he's in like to a hospital or whatever like that's why a lot of these scholars some of course a lot of scholars don't like to come back to the islamic perspective of a lot of these scholars don't know the stuff to be honest that you tell you you say or i say i'm not saying they're stupid but they just don't get told

[Laughter] they um no you know what they what they always do is they don't maybe they don't get told or whatever and those ones who do know that hadith or whatever which they don't tell the public they know it but they can't tell anyone because they're afraid to lose like for example we had this discussion uh i think once that you know about uh dr yasudi um and uh dr zakir naik that they they came out now and said you know about earrings and masturbation wait wait wait i didn't know about the earrings what did they

say about earrings no no but they don't i think doctor yesterday were like he was like i cook i can't it's not haram you can't say it's haram oh has he said that about earrings he said that and he wow did people know this i did i didn't know that yeah it's not it's it's it's not haram [Laughter] was this after i got my ear oh i wore an earring he said it's not ah so you took it off he's like oh after i took it off i i don't have it on look he actually he

actually said that and then doctors and remember you saying that what what kind of angers you or like puts you a bit off is you don't buy that they didn't know that before you i i know your argument you say okay of course because i said it it takes courage for for them to have their kind of audience and then say these things because their audience is not as as well evolved as your audience you know in that sense but you don't of course came with the right argument what stage of evolution are they at if what stage

of evolution let's not get into that but you know you said you don't buy but your argument is re right as well you said you don't buy that they didn't know that before so why you know why were they not hiding i mean i i yeah and i think let me just oh sorry yeah like dr zakin likes up he even said in the beginning of the video he said i think since years he said that he's like i think since years this question comes up five times a day which question which question about masturbation oh he said this question comes up every single day and i was no no pun intended and he even said i was trying

to avoid it he said that openly and he said that but now i i i can't avoid it you know because at the end of the day not the action the question you need to you can't use vague language we don't know you said now by the way this is this is iced tea terrifying yeah everyone no no but nobody would doubt you sure about drinking iced tea you're discussing more pertinent and important topics so eventually uh sorry dr zakir and i said i no longer

can avoid it what does the pronoun go back to wow [Laughter] [Music] the thing is he he did say it then you know and then of course then uh in the they they bring in ibrahim and stuff but before that they don't even mention it at all it is interesting that um it's interesting how these topics become

so um you know such irritants for people like these topics are really um [Music] what you think in a way that what i don't get what the like these are like you know like defining points for people and you you think that i i don't get where this kind of religiosity has come from in that perspective the this is a very pure this is puritanism yeah it is it is the ultra orthodox way of kind of you know that they have created for themselves

which has backfired on them like for example the problem is every institution had had that that is my perspective every institution has its lifespan you know and from i didn't analysis and official analysis and i believe the ubunti ism brillianism has has had the lifespan they had for like 150 years and now people are waking up you know i mean the internet the internet's changed exactly like for example i always you know some people always a guy came to me and he's

like oh you know he he was extremely against engineer muhammad ali mirza and he was like oh this guy is not even a scholar why doesn't he talk he's just an engineer what the hell and this and that i don't care what he says he's not allowed to talk about islam and i said to him i'm like okay let's put it that way let's say he's not okay he's not a scholar okay let's let's just give him okay he is he is a scholar yes let's just assume he's not a scholar okay because he's not like he says himself my mother says i haven't studied so let's say he's not and he says that is that that's why i don't put my uh maulana or something in front of myself

okay let's say he's not a sweater for one second so how has the day and age changed and how here you can see exactly how the lifespan of the ubandhism and institutionalization in pakistan has shrinked that a non-scholar an engineer can come and literally just break the institution foundations in in these countries that he's getting so popular that young people are saying [Music]

muslims become so popular that people are like you know show me the the whole thing because he came with something in a country which people were waiting for you know that's that's a quick went to the right time on that quick point on that that you see part of that is the you see we're speaking of institutionalization it's the unwillingness to adapt you see part of and a survival mechanism is that an organism must adapt to its environment so i remember this um this video

online with i don't know if you know do you know uh you garyvee the the one who speaks about the is he's huge he speaks about business entrepreneurship all the time he's always he's really popular anyway every you definitely must know him by face he's he's online you know everywhere he speaks about how to kind of get into business always encouraging people but there's a clip of his quite uh re you know uh uh slightly old where he's addressing the the store the the kind of sharp if you like or did the company toys r us there was a huge company in the uk i don't know if you remember it

in germany as well yeah right but it's i'm pretty sure it's extinct it's it's it's finished now in the uk i'm pretty sure it is but he's got this uh video on he's just sitting in a car and he's giving this explanation and he says well why did he go bust and he says well because when it came they refused to go online and he said when in the early 2000s when you know when things were going online and everybody was and sorry not the early the kind of late 2000s when everybody was going online and doing stuff and they weren't because they were saying you know we this is our thing you come into the store but then they just became a dinosaur of course and that's obviously in in the corporate

world but it's with everything that with the day and age with the internet if you do not adapt to it you will just become extinct it just it you know for the most part i mean maybe some people won't but yeah there will be a huge yeah like for example like let's take there's the ubuntu ism there is this relevism but then after that you might have noticed of course in the late 90s there was this there was this big impact of wahhabism you know salafism wahhabism before that they weren't that popular amongst youngsters

but in the beginning of the 2000s when the war struck started to happen in afghanistan in iraq they came in and they started the salafis people's yeah exactly they that's that was their prime that was their selfies were you know in the uk they were so sung in germany as well it was selfies in the late 90s had risen massively like this meteoric rise they came out of nowhere and they they they had people converting and they were speaking about bukhari and muslim and people hadn't heard of this

and nobody had at that you know in the 90s the prophet said and always ask for the lead do you want to follow imam or the prophet and these kind of arguments they really resonated with a lot of people because even at that time the whole dilbandhism and beliavism and institutionalization was a lot of for for people it was they were getting sick of it so people in my age they were actually i think it wasn't really active on the english-speaking front it wasn't really as in madrasas existed but there weren't any i remember in the uk uh when i was a teenager so when i began to get interested in let's say

trying to learn something more about islam i must have been about 16 now uh at that time in english in birmingham we had uh sheikh ryad al-haq and so when when i was about 17 i think i i went to some of his uh i can't remember 16 17. yeah yeah he used to in in central mass already yeah yeah so he he was giving them or i think he must have been about 25 26 or something so he must i'm assuming he must have been

about um because yeah he has good arabic yes so or he must i'm pretty sure unless i'm getting his age wrong or unless he was in his but he was a shaykh already so whether i'm assuming he was about 25 at least maybe right he's fighting from curry yeah so he was a graduate from bury and his english speeches were just so almost revolutionary because there was nothing there was nothing like that available and his english is it's it's really good especially his english is good but you see in that time it was

exceptionally good i mean it was just whoa it was incomparable to anything because now okay you can find people who can speak english but if you go to i don't know 96 97 you're not going to get many scholars you will get certain this has a very posh kind of accent yeah and he's more beautiful however i was approached in the supermarket he does with perfection that is my theory what is that why people love to listen to him he has this posh english but his tajweed is really good so he switches in a millisecond

it is undeniable he had a captivating charm he was he was you know back then he he was something like like like a sh he was just so captivating because one you you couldn't believe that wow there's there's a maulana because you're you're you're still your only understanding of mawlana was some imam in a masjid who'd come from pakistan or india and and they were a maulana and they did they spoke even if they spoke english it was with an accent and it wasn't some kind of profound english it was just enough to get by for

and maulana to be young to be inc to be very eloquent in english to be kind of captivating to have this presence about him it was just something else it was like whoa what's going on here and so he he emerges at that time there were one two other people that emerged as well at the time i don't know if you remember sher faisal he was a from the kind of salafi thing faisal jamaican

yeah i think is from the salafi thing with the long beard um do you remember him he's he's i've heard of him but you have to imagine what's up his videos in the like in the mid 2000s his videos went viral in europe germany and other countries the netherlands he had like a lot of people knew him although he was uh from like it was unbelievable do you remember what hamsa hamza yusuf kind of blew up but the problem but the problem is sheikh hamza yusuf big it blew up like in an international way yeah salafis

always had had this you know this uh i remember you won't believe they didn't like sheikh hamza you say no of course i remember in madrasah they told us not to listen to him and i regretted it so much that i started listening to him so late in my you know but same with dr um professor has just in the last few years kind of with online kind of blown up because of germany sorry in pakistan he was always well known because he used to appear on the tv all the time okay i don't know about it always always like i only

heard of uh in the last i think it's been four or five years that's it and you know when his you know when his small clips started to get um circulated on youtube no no no in the urdu language was extremely well known since the last 20 years because no no no it wasn't it was it was i don't think it i i'm not saying he wasn't known to people who knew him but he wasn't fame you know there's there's a video of his i tell you why it's his own video where he's saying he himself is saying that i uh have only in the last two years

gained kind of worldwide recognition worldwide recognition is something else but if in in pakistan on uh i think hum tv and even on he used to appear every week with some lectures so he had this because if you're on tv everyone knows you're like how old would hum tv be i don't even think these channels are that old what i can tell you he used to appear on tv in 2005 already everyone

no but no but not even heard of him as like we heard of other names that they would hate on so for example they would hate on certain names they would say such and such is uh gumrah such and such as like this never heard of him i never see a lot of discussions for example if you type on youtube the old discussions no i'm not saying i'm not saying he didn't exist but i mean we like i when i lived in karachi like six years in the madrasa scene i never heard of him at all and i'd never nobody ever mentioned him what time are we talking about so i was

there till about 2005 i think about that kind of time so i thought about after 2005 so now i'm not saying he wasn't maybe he i'm not saying he didn't exist but and i'm not saying he didn't write stuff and he didn't speak like maybe he did speak but he didn't like i think the attention has only gone to him in the last probably you know in the last five maybe six years like may i don't think six years like for example speaking about myself i was told not to listen to this man and i started i started listening about like five years ago probably because i'm telling you his

thing just there's a clip of his where he's discussing this he says and the clip is quite the clip is about i think about three years old or something or about four years old where he's saying that wow i didn't think he says i never expected uh that at this late in life i would suddenly kind of blow up like he says that i thought because he's an old man he says like i did all my life and i said all my things i wrote books i lectured and nobody you know few people listen and others didn't and he says but now for some reason he says i've you know i find this this that i've

kind of blown up and people have uh have kind of have come across me you know on this up is another guy where i say like of course with you as well um where i literally i had to take a really a few breath where i said alhamdulillah there are people who have my opinions and i'm not alone and i i don't have to be scared to say my opinion because there are people there are people who copy your opinions no no

masturbation is allowed you know did you say that yeah and people wrote in the comments of the old video people are writing now buddha so mean stuff like you know he is you know people people like uh uh ramadisa because of his urdu he is such a kind of godsend for people who because they don't you see otherwise they don't have any access to um islamic knowledge apart from the the other means and because his urdu is

so eloquent it's like wow and he has a lot of respect like i was watching the video of mufti tariq masood a few days ago and i think it was a new video and he said he was speaking about he hates ramdisab in the sense of the guy yeah yeah guns you know he has some weird he always talks about marriages and always

so he's like he's he's another one that's kind of he's become a sensation in the last but then a bunch of years with just clips and being yeah just with clips and he said for example he says a lot of mean stuff about hamdi sab and then he said okay there's no respect from my side for a human and then he said one one thing he said just a few days ago i watched his video and he said uh you know the problem with hamdi sabbas you can say whatever you want to him you can gun him down and the man just doesn't get angry ram this up is never angry and it it makes me more

angry that he doesn't get angry and i was like you sing yourself good and you're like can you just praise him yeah i'm just like praise him for once he's see i think you see it's it's it the the the synchronicity of events is so wow as well because in a way you see ramadi saab um it's one his obviously his his his kind of elocution his his eloquence his his his vast his kind of comprehensive perspective on things but then also his age yeah you see it's it's an interesting

factor because he's at an age of also wisdom and and composure and his life where he's he's got life threats he's lost there is this emotional uh moment where he where he shares then he said he was in malaysia and someone sung the the national anthem in the embassy or something and he said i started crying all over because i was missing my home and then going to the to america you know of life death threats of his family because of views like saying aisha isn't six and what the

hell what kind of intolerant kind of you know yeah i heard the story story that him him saying that um that the masjid he used to go to um where he was living in pakistan asked him to stop coming to the mosque because they said look with all due respect they said we respect you but we fear that to target you they may target the mosque and so innocent people may get kind of caught up in this and shot and killed or whatever like for example do you know the late rahmatullahi doctor is no i didn't know about this any incident with him now yeah don't don't just snap but you know no of course of course

every everybody knows about that another guy who will used to get it's so funny you know mecca you know he they you they've got him they're like you know him you're not this you're not that god of get off the screen get off doing that but then he killed it with his the seed in the sense of of course i don't agree with a lot of stuff which he has with the khalafar and stuff but you can't deny that he does good tafsir you know he does the tafsir any person who is working to help people on their journey of faith is is an asset he's not part of the institution you understand yeah

they attack them because they're not from the institution and they don't they don't say i'm part of this and i'm not part of this they act individually that's why someone like dr zakir naik in the beginning they used to hate him a lot normally was hated extremely in the beginning to be fair uh he namana khan had done i mean he got obviously the the envy and these issues because people said well they said he wasn't an harlem you know you shouldn't call himself cher and he didn't used to call himself chef but they would say don't call him cher don't call him this uh but he

because he focused and in many ways this is the same thing with doctor israel and i know i think may have met dr israel as well so yes and and kind of uh taken some classes with him and stuff i fee if i recall correctly but you see what they both centered on and especially nak no man alican was that was the quran and it's interesting that nobody really focuses entirely on the quran and so because he did and he did an excellent job like let's let's be honest

there was nothing that could meet in the english language english language there is no one no more like now after all these years that i have met someone they were like and now because they can't hate him anymore they're like because you can't deny that i mean yeah now obviously because of you know the other matches but the but the thing was that he really he was somebody you know i said to nak once we were years ago he was in the uk he was doing a tour so this is probably going back to something like 2016 2015 it's going back to that kind of time so about seven years ago

and he we we were going somewhere and i said to him you know i said uh well that's it he was he had this tour in uh scotland so i was driving him there and i said to him that you know i said that i said that from the engl this is the english-speaking world yeah there isn't a single uh let's say ustad or a islamic figure yeah there isn't a single figure that has um global if i can use global for the sectarian sense yeah that has universal acceptance

that i can't think that i said i can the only people that ever come to mind like you can mention the biggest of names like sheikh hamza yusuf he's huge he doesn't like let's say salafis will not like him uh certain other groups will not like him i mean now maybe more so other groups before when he was liked by let's say the majority of people sheikh hamza but you still get so many certain factions that don't like him now i said i can just think of just two names only i said that that one is imam siraj wahaj i don't know if you know imam said

i know from that he he he was an imam that i saw he was just like just spoke about good motivation stuff islamic stuff he kept it kind of down to earth he wasn't kind of he wasn't speaking about complex issues and i've i've seen people who were salafi listen to him people who were sufi listened to him people who this group listened to him people who there was this universality about his about his message and the second i said is you to noman ali khan i said that you know you i've heard people from all denominations listening to you and that is wow like you don't really

get that in the uh you don't get it anyway let alone in the west the the only thing i can think close of those two people is probably a guy like uh maura tariq jamil you know who who has in the urdu speaking world no but the the but the railways wouldn't listen to him no the barilla is do but the salafis don't they like they're like you know because mourinho jimmy has this even she has no are you talking about now or before well now okay so now because maulana tariq jamil saab now is different to malnatarik uh let's say 10 years ago not that he was a bad person then but he was

so big that even his own you see because in the last i don't know whatever it is let's say uh whether it's going to be five seven years whatever it is um has come on to this unitive mission of trying to unite people and bring them together on one path and uh and and that where he's trying to say it doesn't matter what your denomination is every this has really you know it's a different mission and he's been on that for a few years now you know when i heard when i heard you know we i'll just ask you a question that i want your perspective on that you know but we will i have to ask you this

question but um just to be fair you know when i heard about i was appreciating the uni you know the unity uh work that he's doing and everything but when i heard sheikh that he went to um this is what was it okay when i heard that he went to this area of prostitutes and actually went there

why why are you setting a scandal for the chef is such a noble innocent sweet and you start your discussion by saying he went to this area oh okay so here's how the story goes right so there's this area full of prostitutes [Laughter] no no keep going keep going you can't stop here

how can you put it on me i'm trying to go marry cat humpty attack so yeah sorry you're saying he yeah so when i heard that he went to this uh you know the street i think he was hiramandi where there were prostitutes this area and he did he took them off their whole the jobs and everything and he made them i think financially oh i thought you're going to say unemployed i was going to say that's not a nice way to word it that you made them unemployed

i was gonna say come on it's sheriff's doing such a good thing you can't use words like unemployed that's just like uh when he got them of the prostitution he got them off and he made them you know he they did they did i think they were in a jamaa or something and then they you know did tabiri work and he got them made them you know financially a bit stable so that don't have to do this kind of work and leave the whole

prostitution business and it was when i heard that oh he went to the transgender you know transgender community and he's done a lot of work with the transgender community you know no one even talks to them they do their own janazah's no one goes there it's unbelievable discriminated these muslim transgenders are and he goes there and he made them you know brought them into the jamaat gave them shelter and everything it's unbelievable when he what about these kind of things i was like you know it just it is the things he does the man is look let's be honest you know the man is is a saint in what

he does you know he you know and the criticism he gets from other ulama i remember that um oh right but you know but he suddenly wouldn't really spare he was so and he said and he said

he said at least don't cuss my no don't swear on my parents and stuff and then he actually said he rectified he's like let me just clarify this is my lineage and i'm like why are you even why are you even saying that you know you don't have to get going to and when died the first tweet was from our authority and he said i you know i may allah wish him and that is something very big in this day and age between and then you know people yeah that is true you know i i i was gonna say i've seen as which are maybe not authentic and a lot of stories

you know but then again what's up that is you can do this you can do it with respect no of course of course i was going to say this it's interesting because this phenomenon this unitive collective effort there was a similar um effort by i believe is it i mean one i think did i was going i believe did mufti rafi also get a bit into that and secondly maulana saeed assad from the brilliant community community did a lot of that as well to the extent that he's also

if i re if i'm recalled correctly he's also championed the stance of the age of aisha as well and he's a very notable respectable kind of uh uh scholar from the bravery community so but this this whole thing of the unity that's something that he's really that i was aware of especially a few years ago i take it his efforts are still ongoing i don't know about with kovid and what happened but he would he was making this huge effort to try to bring different groups together to speak about unity to speak about he did have uh he did have a

discussion with this diobandy he had this and i remember him you know him gunning him and he is going to was like you have to write that our we're going to sit with you write it sign it and he's like i'm saying isn't that enough he's like sign it it was just like i'm not i have i really respect that you know because it takes look listen this thing yeah you know when you

get fame like these any scholars that have this level of following like you mentioned early on earlier on dr zakir naik you said uh these people people who get a certain amount of following now what happens is for them to not tow a line or in this case with it's not just about okay there you were speaking about they uh let's say uh turned on certain you know on certain fatawa uh here you're talking about they're going complete out on methodology and saying look let everybody you know let's let's

harmonize it's not about let's we're not going to call people careful we're not going to and i'm going to go there and try to visit people i'm going to try to this it takes so much courage because at that stage of life you will now start getting boycotted by the people who've who've made you and followed you like mufti like one thing i really liked about mufti munibur rahman who is i think he he died right did he die i think he's just sure now you you say it like that and he is he's biggest if he hasn't passed away it's gonna make us just sound really cruel now

you keep embarrassing us because now i need to make sure we're not i'm misleading people you're getting me into trouble here when i was like are you just googling if you died i gotta find out so right so obviously i've gotta i've got now that you've brought it up okay um check it out uh right it says mufti of pakistan um

right let's see is or was that's the holy just that's that's a good point it just right so this is this is hardly helpful it just seems to um inshallah no it doesn't yeah it doesn't say that he's uh passed away in this so okay he's alive so basically i remember him writing something in some newspaper or something he has this column where he writes still writes i think and he actually said about eid milan the the birthday of the prophet yeah he is alive he is alive

you're making people pass away you're trying to ease up the the workload of the angel of death may allah bless these people bless their lives grant them very long lives i mean but what he said in accord i think he wrote in the column and he was talking about nabi and at this stage of his life he actually said that i accept that is not proven from quran and sunnah after all these years he did that and i respect him for it i respect him but he did save the vida

argument of course you know he had to but then he did say it's not proven from quran and sunnah and him saying that um is not a small thing it is a big thing on that stage and i admire people like that that can actually have the courage the position that he is on on in brilliantism his whole following is to say that it's not an easy easy thing at all it's like and and that's why i do admire people like that as well and uh you know there is this famous thing of monatar jamil quote saying he said um

um they um sufi say they they maybe they are wrong shia say suni zakafor sunnis shiazaka and then then he said who's going to go into jannah by the way you know and that is so right if you think about it who's going to go into jannah if everyone is kafir who is if there is a place called jannah who is it created for then if everyone is just gunning each other down you know no i do i think that there is you know there is a growing need and a growing pressure as well from you know from from bottom up where

you're getting from the masses the common people up for a unitive expression that they want more harmony they want and to see then certain figureheads uh at a certain stage of their life just start to say well you know what it doesn't matter or i'm going to say risk all of this and i'm going to say look let's spread love and harmony and i i that's honestly it's wonderful there's uh i've mentioned um i've mentioned on a few of my talks since you've mentioned you know the the greater kind of uh brilliant

that i've uh this year come across i listen to him every single day by the way i you know i i try if not every day every other day to hear a little you know at the very least a little kind of beyond uh unless something i'm totally preoccupied with certain work or something but i find it's just wow like seriously speaking but just just to like maybe add to your message i think would say the same thing to the viewers as well it's not what

most i was talking about it's not about the doctrine or the doctor no no no it's all about that every single belief he has mufti but me have the same belief especially when it comes to i don't even think it's about belief it in the sense it's not about dogma not about when he but you know you know he says it a lot you know when he talks sometimes he says so he says we do believe that this can happen so of course this that what we what when i listened to him for me he's his voice allah has given him a voice allah has given them a way to express himself that is so hard that

she plucks at the heart strings doesn't it and he i tell you something he's he's always in in how the clips i've watched he's always smiling and he's always calling towards love and he never calls to i mean i i think maybe you know generally speaking he never calls towards um you know a demonization he's more interested in positivity

like for example he was talking about the prophet and he was like he was talking about when you go to madinah don't pick up your phone and this and why are you doing that and he said you know of course that now that's his belief but we're okay with it he says um you know when i go to lahore every second day i go to lahore mira allah [Music] in lahore in pakistan there is the shrine which is called data and it is it is um

a well known i believe a guy who was very pious and he was probably you you hear good things about the guy who knows of course but very very historical figure centuries very very old like a shrine and it's like they actually there are some people who actually literally go there and believe that they can most of the people that go there believe he can see them talk to them and you know all this kind of stuff which is of course something uh we don't know i yeah but you know i feel he was saying in the talk that you know i don't even go there

because um i believe that he will see me and now the intention he's saying is this respect there's nothing wrong with saying look i have to if we go to medina we have to behave in an appropriate manner he's saying something good but of course my ears are like okay that is his belief of course i can blind that out you know but the intention is beautiful yeah and i i feel it so here's where i'm at with this you see i don't like maybe this is more an age thing and um something that maybe if let's say i was to respond to this very thing a few

years ago i would respond very differently but i've it's like i see these statements or these interactions um these dynamics i understand them slightly differently like i've recognized that that i get it like you see when people have this thing many of them i don't know i can't say maybe some people you know people say oh my god they're committing by doing this or they're doing that or they uh maybe some people are like that and are thinking this is like a god or something but i think many if not most people

this is really just a devotional interaction is uh intro interaction that they have a dynamic that was kind of thing yeah and and it's also you see it's also something which it's in it's like a life yeah but but what i mean is it's alive in their minds it's not you see it's like they apply i think they actually believe it no they do but it's it's i think it's different it's like a they they do believe it but like an interaction like they believe it in a way that

you see it's a bit like saying this is what i think it's a bit like saying how people today i guess because let's say how social media has made things uh all like we could um we we understand things in a way oh well all these you know i'm i'm interacting with all these people here they are they're on this uh now okay this is slightly different because okay we may be interacting with them let's say that we actually maybe because there's there's technology involved and it's doing things but there's a whole world by which we accept so let me yeah let me give this example instead

the the way we were speaking about this uh we had a guest the other day and he was explaining to us about artificial intelligence and he was explaining um how it is already running right now and artificial intelligence how scary it is when you think about it and he gave the example like a group of us were had met together so there was about let's say six of us now he said we come from different places some you know somebody had come from london somebody had come from cardiff and somebody had come from the midlands and i was from the midlands and now he was saying look well right now to give you an example he said okay people say well your phone's kind

of spying on you and stuff and that's something else he said the fact that we are right now in this place our phones have communicated like they would have picked up we're in close proximity and we've been here for a while the ai would recognize that a person is stationary and they are meeting they are with each other in this it's not just a passing thing and it would recognize certain things like let's say now you are in because you're here you let's say have a particular shampoo at home or you have a particular

deodorant or you have a particular thing your the ai would know that about you now because of that the way ai would interact with each other that my phone would start giving me adverts as i walk away about your stuff because it's had a communication whilst we've sat there because it's recognized these people are not only in proximity they are here and it seems that they are obviously friends or communicating maybe it's recognized through social media we're connected now you see when i say these things the reason i'm saying this when i say this

this now it's like ah okay because we have a narrative that this stuff in our mind it's kind of like a live hypothesis it works but let's say we're trying to explain this to someone who doesn't have a narrative like that in their mind it just wouldn't make because in their hypo in the it's not a live hypothesis for them it's a dead hypothesis if they didn't if they weren't familiar with this kind of stuff or they lived in a part of the world where there wasn't that they didn't have this wasn't normalized this ai and technology and so now

even if this was wrong what i'm saying let's say it turns out this is wrong now when i said it to when i say to you or when he was explaining it to me i accept it why do i accept it because we have this kind of framework this kind of hypothesis within our mind this structure psychosocial structure that allows for it so these people they have a devotional psychosocial structure that it's like well people are alive so let's say you take away let's say you remove the devotional aspect let's say you live with a friend or with a partner or

husband wife whatever now they're not there let's say they're not there you're at home on your own let's say they've gone abroad or they've gone somewhere else and they're not going to be here for a few weeks you might some people sometimes may kind of talk or think or act as though the other person is still there but now that's a that's a psychosocial they may even address them like they may even say like let's say here's a photo they may even say you know what you've got no idea what and in that moment they don't consider they actually feel that the person can hear them but most about what i would

but i would i would slightly disagree but the thing is more like with respect of course no of course of course of course no no no no that's a good thing i i'd want you to yeah i slightly disagree because yeah the thing is we agree on so many things that is refreshing no it's no i'd like you to to disagree if you're going to do this look the thing is what's this up what you're saying is absolutely right now the thing is when we take what you say for normal things in in world but we see but normal according to who no no it is i mean it's okay for worldly matters but when you why do you

how do you say how do you draw that line how do you draw that line no no but when you say that when you say that about things with religion like from islamic perspectives and say that's also okay for them because they might interact with them and the thing what happens is i'm still with you no i i get it i get it but i'm just saying opens it opens the door and that door leads to sheik and you know that you know right that reason right so but you don't have pictures

right so okay but right it's not i right okay so it's not about whether this is the proper medium or improper medium so people would you see because from a from a proper medium you would have let's say religion proper now religion proper would teach you that okay this is how it works it works that you ask god and this is the whole personal versus transcendent god kind of dilemma now okay that's fine nobody's denying that you know even these people no

but even these people christians no but even these people don't deny that you know even the the christians are the biggest example like they didn't have a uh stretch of jesus a few hundreds of years and then after that some people tried to have it and they a lot of priests removed it because they said we've got people are going to start you know no no no no because in christians because in christianity it's different because in christianity very shortly after the whole godhead uh philosophy is the that they believed in the in in the kind of three godheads but they disagree in how much power is given

exactly but even with the whole thing i think but they but they agree in the godheads yeah but even even there was a lot of i remember reading that as well from some priests and then it stabilizes on they gave them equal they kind of recognize it as in their way of their own face and the body in every church to have a jesus it wasn't it wasn't a unanimous decision sure i mean there was iconoclastic movements that took it out but i think not on god but regardless of the statue statues are irrelevant because if you believe jesus is god himself regardless of whether you have a statue of him or not and his statue does

support that same with buddha like you can't find something uh telling buddha that he is you know he's got but then again having a statue of buddha of course glorifies and that's i believe you know the reason sure you know also because you you know people would have started going there and looking at him and it would have been easier to worship the prophet i don't i don't believe any do you believe that any of these do you believe any of these people that let's say go to shrines i'm not saying look this is not religion proper that said

i i struggle to believe that most people who do that worship those people they don't work like they believe like if you're to ask them they would say we only worship god okay i get okay i'm with you but then again we go to the point back again i with respect i have to disagree on that because what was shirk at the time of you know they had allah also and they did didn't say everyone is equal a lot of people said okay there is this one god which is above everyone same as the hindus for them ishwar is above everyone else you know in the mythology but again having a lot of gods even if they are

under gods or saying an intercession the prophet sallallahu islam would you believe that they so would you believe that i i get what you're saying and i agree with that principle would you feel that these people think these saints are like they not just behaviors though but they actually believe they are demigods i believe i believe that what happens is when once they actually start believing and it starts but this is a bit of an imposition here because you're soon as soon as you say their life that means you can talk to them as soon as you say

talk to them yeah okay as soon as you say you can talk to them okay nothing all right i'm okay with you yeah no i'm just saying yeah as soon as you say you can talk to them i believe then it goes into having a conversation as soon as it goes into conversation it goes into they can hear me and help me as soon as they go into help me it is as if for example okay let's let's let's wind this back bend my point this up ascend so i took the bullets up yeah so if i go to him and say please do dua for me i'll say that to you please don't draw for me you're like

okay insha'allah i'll do after you who do you go to and say please do dura for me a lot if you go to a wise and saintly person or alimore you go to them and says please do dua for me please pray for me because you believe they pray for you and inshallah allah will accept that but even if you said help me let's say you said help me you're using those words and if you say help me and you start relying on them telling you to help you with god now that's the intercession that's just that's wasilla and there are a lot of you know about the whole thing look i'm not speaking like but let's go let's look let's let's wind back to those steps that you said

right now look in in reality you said now you speak to someone now how do you differentiate that from the photograph example like for example so is that a person you'd be surprised how many people behave and they're totally normal people in that way that they interact with inanimate let's say representations of people so whether they speak to a photo they speak to religion that is worldly matters no there is a line between religion how how how how is their line as soon as you go into religion you mean

that it has got something to do with your spirituality so wait wait wait wait a minute so is is it so so these people that do this let's say yeah uh are they like are they delusional people it's not about delusion it's about them actually believing okay but in the in the moment when they do it do they think in the moment when they do it doing that interaction they drift into a um a dynamic where they do believe in the moment even though out of that moment they don't believe it so in the moment

they believe it like they actually think they talk into the photo the moment they step out of that moment the next moment they recognize oh but that's just a photograph so so but in the moment they actually do it but people talk to themselves for example when they're talking to themselves when the people go to these shrines and ask them for help they actually them believing that someone who is dead can resolve their problem give their daughter a baby can make some problems so is it when you say dead what what's dead got to do with it like because if they were alive what difference would it make it does because at the end of the

day if for me it's like um woman what was it because let's say let's say you're talking to a photograph and the person is alive what difference does it make if he's dead just being but being accurate those verses are speaking about idols and deities of course so it's not so i'm just saying there's a bit of a leap here that you're taking verses that are speaking about deities and people who worship they actually worship them and they call them a god to let's say somebody you speak into a photograph and he says

but you i think when you go to the photo you shift from the shrine because the shrine is really destroying what photos what makes it you see but if you can do that in your mind and consider it normal what makes you think that the boundaries are so clear in where you how do you set rules of where you can and cannot do this action because because muslim as soon as you make as because the whole sh that i'm not drawing the line the line is itself because as soon as it goes into let's say somebody can't can somebody let's say somebody's sitting in their car and they're talking to their car this is very normal yeah like people

will say let's say i got let's let's say let's say one second let's say a person's yeah like let's say the person says to his car the car's almost stalling says come on come on you got to do this come on don't let me down now don't let me down now he's talking to the car but he doesn't actually believe in that in that moment is he lying is he lying what is it like he doesn't actually believe he's talking to the car he does believe he's talking to the car he knows he's talking to the car you're getting my poi he doesn't believe that the has the power or the ability so to actually help so so in a supernatural way so

so no rest right no you gotta you gotta stop it there because we gotta answer that when he says that to the car yeah he's explain that action no what is he doing what is it is he is he lying is he is he in a state of insanity is he in a state of what is this person doing he has a for me in that perspective is he does he think he's lying to himself when he's is he what is he doing what is he doing same person knows that the car can't talk so of course but in that moment but is he tricking himself come on you know

he just wants the car to go on so so but he's talking to the car yeah of course he is but he has got and he's telling the car to help him he said come on come on go you got to start you got to stop but but again you you always leave my butt alone [Laughter] i do that from choice [Laughter] that's never been of an appeal to me you know but the reason i'm saying i'm i'm just tackling the point that no person believes that the car has the ability or supernatural ability to

actually help him so so people who go to shrines but you can't stop there you have to explain that look because if the reason i'm saying you have to explain because if this is perfectly normal you're saying that a person in that moment has a dynamic interaction with an object that is inanimate essentially it has a motor but it can't

yes because look in essence what you're doing is you're saying in this moment this uh this interaction is okay even though we all we all know that look it doesn't work that way but you say it's okay because this person in the in their mind they occupy a world in that moment in which it's okay to do that so you think if there's no contradiction it says so a guy goes to just to be specific a guy goes to a shrine and says but people don't say that though people don't say that let's let's be real

people well people say you'll be surprised they don't okay so look people do ask for things but do they okay so uh right okay if a person went and said i want you to forgive my sins this is what you're saying exactly just tell me they say they they say that as in i want you to forgive my sins exactly no they don't normally okay i've not come across this ever okay let's say he says that okay let's say he even says that well okay what what what is the the understanding as is he it's okay no so right okay so look there's two there's two things here there's two things here

yeah one is is this religion proper this is not religion proper in the sense that this is not how the religion is taught uh generally through its teachings this is not religion proper however however however however this now may be a a a reality i say a reality this may be a kind of psychosocial uh realized hypothesis for certain people now in that hypothesis in that moment just as you said you know that the car can't do anything but in that moment despite

knowing that you say certain things which are absolutely contradictory but they but they're okay to say it so now how can you hold that dysmorphia uh how can you hold that there in the real world under crises and stress and say well these people who mostly are not educated people need to draw a the fact that let's say we let's say we critically chastise them because they fail to draw the line when it comes to let's say now sacred issues okay but

these people i don't think it's easy for them to draw lines i'm not saying this is religion proper this is not religion proper this is not how but i i struggle to accept that it's shirk i i it's not shirk in my understanding sure it is ignorance if people believe like for me what's up there i have to i have to say that if i if someone says to another person and believes that he can forgive his sins although we know the only one okay that's sure against the whole perspective i've not heard that one to be honest but okay we can use that as an extreme example i

i normally hear that they ask for things so they'll say you know like the thing is help me get this just some to some this just this topic up it's just i believe we both are on in some things on the same page the only difference is that i am maybe saying i wouldn't open that door too much no it's not about opening it because look people it's not it's not about opening it because people are already doing these things they're not doing them because some people are saying you can do them or some people are saying you can't do them they're doing them anyway so the question is you see this is where i'm saying that what i've started to

understand is the complexity of the issue with age like i've started to see okay you know like maybe five years ago i would have replied just like you or but i see now that wait a minute how can we in several things consider it normal and acceptable to behave in a way that is totally insane like it's it's totally insane by our logical standards like i gave the example of talking to inanimate objects it's it it makes zero sense we would be categorized as like mentally insane if we were to be audited on that

but but we normalize it and we wouldn't bat an eyelid like if you even though we ourselves know in another moment let's say by default like we have we have this understanding that these things can't do this for me but all of a sudden my phone is freezing i'm like come on god dammit you load load what's wrong with you now i'm now i'm speaking to my phone as in a way and i'm interacting meaningfully as though i as though this is in that moment gonna work now we would excuse that as well that's just human behavior to interact irrationally

with a certain expression because that's our manifestation of the emotion given that moment then we have to extend some compassion in understanding that when people go to let's say sacred sides which are moments of emotion and they express things that they it's it's not religion proper this is not the teaching of islam to say well you should go to this it's not the teachings and that the teaching you're right is to say look but when people do it just to have an understanding right okay i see what they're doing

i don't think they worshipping uh let's say uh as in you are a god like la illaha except allah and you no one is saying exactly they don't believe that and god were existing at the beginning of creation and they don't believe that and but but it's like it's like for me uh giving him powers of like you know uh doing that and this and that that that is the only thing otherwise i'm with you like again i listen to you doctor solimani every single day and i joyful this is just an interesting conversation this is why i thought look it's really good to

just unpack these uh it's it's not about obviously it's good that we can disagree and kind of explain because in the disagreement we're seeing sides to it yeah of course because of this i think and we all agree that look this is not i'm using the word religion proper this is not the way this is not the teachings of as highlighted in the faith they don't say it by the way when you go past a grave start doing this no no nobody says that it's like you know the whole conference this is rurality rural mindsets just behavioral position about karamat you know do

muftisa and me believe that someone can just do supernatural things you know um you know we don't we don't but if someone like dr sullivan misbaha um gives these stories i see the benefit yeah that people have right so this this so here's here's where i'm at with those stories like uh maulana misbahasa gives these stories of saints and they and they do all these let's say amazing miracles and i see that's i see incredibly valuable the story and i love the stories when he tells them and i feel

that you see i engage and interact with those stories as one would with the i guess maybe with art or with they evoke emotion it's not to me it's not about history data it's not like i'm sitting there like a reporter saying i have to stop you there but do you believe that everyone who has not who is not a highly intelligent person like you or something on that stage of knowledge flattering me like with these words [Laughter] do you believe that everyone who has not

maybe the level of knowledge as you who can say this is not history data because the the guy who's telling them the story is presenting it as a true story now that's where i sometimes but again with dr suman is why my heart just melts yeah so i never you know but i do believe if people believe this is a historical fact something i see because i think okay so here's where i'm at i think that one of the greatest skills that us as a human species have is the the the the skill to tell a story that's beautiful this

this is true isn't it and this is what yuval harari's whole book is kind of beamed on sapiens and the monkeys and the the humans on uh oh in the experiment but his whole book sapiens kind of rests on this thing that our really our skill our super powers one of the keys is the power to be able to tell a story now because we can put messages in there we can put emotions in there we can put you know morals in there we can fit it with values we can do you know we could tell our legacy in the now you see when people tell these this is why to be fair i prefer

that the story this is me now i prefer that these stories are about saints let's say because they're gonna be magical or they're gonna have like extra miracles in there as opposed to being about profits because i feel that it's right okay so people you see when you start telling people so much about profits and let's say these stories and you know you've read it in some random book and you've read it here and and then people may take it as data whereas let's say it's about a and the name of some sheikh which people don't really most people in the audience probably won't even remember the sheikh's name they just have this story of uh let's say that like there's a

story that let's say um gives the example of now most people would never have you know they've probably never heard of him but he gives this story of this saint and this is you know something miraculous so now what it does is the listener who most of whom are there for that sacred experience the holy experience they have these emotions it evokes this you know this kind of like whoa okay like wow and they want to be a better pers a bit like somebody looking at art and they're getting all emotional they're getting all kind of they have

these so i agree with you the problem can be when people it's not about the skill or the power of being able to tell a story it's it starts becoming like reporting like i'm reporting an event and you're recording data so this is so it becomes a way it's like you've gone away from art into a textbook for an exam like i'm learning math so i can sit an exam now this here you're right because then you learn all these things and in the real world it doesn't happen like that exactly and you actually believe that and that that's when it happens that you know and then you might feel that why doesn't

god do this for me exactly and you might actually be heartbroken if once you believe and that is my problem with these whole things once you believe actually that this is historical data you start believing in facts and when you think that is a fact you actually start believing that there are humans who have these kind of powers once you start believing that you believe in you know people come to you and they say you need this and this i'll write you a tabi's and this will go away i'll write you this and i'll just give me 200 pounds and you know that without it oh right well you know i remember you be i remember you said

like by why 19 pence and but i do feel that we as humans can engage in what appears to be contradictory uh elements in an equation so we so for example we can sit and watch a movie right now there's a side of us before going in that knows this is a movie it's been enacted there's a rational side knows you know camera crew got together directors producers and i'm sitting here watching this movie but in the movie i could for example a person could get scared if it's horror

they could go oh watch out they could a person we could cry let's say let's say we could laugh we we kind of live it but then when the movie finishes we so we take the experience the human experience we harness it we empower ourselves with it but we don't consider it at the same time we don't walk away and think well it was a documentary you know you know we know that oh but it was a movie and i think that is the the kind of fine line the sweet spot between you hear these wonderful kind of empowering stories in a way that they are very they they inspire the in from the sense that they

put a spirit into you that you feel whoa okay you you know somebody he did this and like he gave he like he gives this story where um i mean this is just one example let's say that um i don't i can't remember which it was which whether it was baba uh foreign [Music] [Laughter]

but he gives the story of where he's going and he's um you know he's really thirsty and he denies himself water says i'm not going to give myself water it doesn't matter i'll do what i have to do but then it gets to a point where he can't take he gets to a well eventually and there's no um you know the water is too low and he doesn't have the the uh any the the uh you know apparatus to kind of lift it so he he just sits there and then whilst he's sitting there like a deer comes or some animal and as they come the water rises and so this saint is this person is watching that and then he thinks ah okay so he goes to it and the water sinks

and and he thinks like what's this but when the animal goes it kind of comes up and and then he he kind of says to god that what's this like you know am i worse than these animals or what's going on and and allah tells him that you see the animals came there on on my tawakkul that i will raise the water you went there thinking the water itself will raise you know this like you see the the issue was about belief like they had iman in beautiful story it's beautiful it's like so and when he says it for example with his words and his charisma it brings you to tears like you

think wow and you go away thinking you know what i should have more trust in god yeah you know you know ramdisab said something really nice about it he said about quran he said the thing is if you're talking about supernatural stuff karamat and stuff and he said about some awliya allah you know and godly people doing uh supernatural stuff he's like you can't say that we'll listen to you but you have to accept that i could show you buddhists or hindu kind of saints who will tell even double and triple of those kalamat and claim they can do that or they their

their elders can do that and then you'll have to accept that as well and then he said but we will listen to you but once you go and that's what i liked about his approach he said once you go into religion once you make this religion once you say it's from god and allah and the quran and once you go into that he said then we'll execute you then we'll will actually see okay it's not factual what are you saying you know so i like that approach you know what i all really really find uh funny is when it's still so stupid when dale bundy say

our saints can do that but they believe guys they're just chatting how can that even be but when the brilliance say yeah that you know but that's just double face well how can you say that how can you say it's i remember they used to tell us that there when people say they used to they used to say that's wrong but then again when they used to have jalsa of bukhari they used to say let's do this

the prophet in his dream and then they say doctor tyrol qatar is lying that he saw him in his dream that can't be seen you see one of the things that with all this right one of the things that i i'm coming more and more to appreciate is that you see the wonderful thing about islam you know this is an amazing thing that with all these it's kind it's uh representations or i don't know multi-faceted approaches let's say it's attitudes it's personalities if you want to see it in that way that it's how it harmonizes with people

that for different people it it so it is there to gel like these dynamics that are so different are for each for its own like you will get you know like in arabic they say look that each you will get people who for example need a very rational kind approach to islam and that is there for them and you will need some people for example that may want a very just a practical and that is the and maybe some people

are very devotional and that is the and maybe for some people are very mystical and that is the and maybe there's some people look there's some people who need rigidity in life like they need uh you know you get some people they very there's a lot of ocd scrupulosity and not that that's healthy but some people are like that they they have i need so much structure like i need rules all the time it's almost like they are um you know slightly on a spectrum let's say they they have that i need a lot of do's and don'ts and i need this and

and that's there for people that want that and there's people who feel that no i don't you know this there should be a lot more spirit a lot more and and that's the so people that's what i come came to appreciate because like right now i alex i i came to appreciate at this stage right now of my knowledge like sufism and stuff is uh is something which really i do have a different perspective now on it you know i've seriously i i so

yeah like i've so started to appreciate the you know the the mystics for example of islam why is it called uh one of those guys who is misunderstood extremely as well you know like you know there are some figures i always say in islamic history you don't have a middle path people either hate them and call them kafir or they say they are nonplus ultra you know and people are like for example ibritemia you know there is one fraction which this is him you know maybe also on some extent some people dismiss

him some people yeah i would say now in in later times imam abu hanif for centuries now he's he's generally kind of dignified he's revered he's very kind of respect maybe in very early times yeah he was just after him yeah but people like like especially oh yeah they were people that both sides they just one says sheikh akbar and one says he's a catholic yeah so i came to i mean abner himself is is condemning yeah

no so you know but then again there are some people who say this thing of flavors for everyone yeah it is it's so colorful and i feel that you see because that's by the way that everyone you know there's no one who actually dares to like uh of course there was this with uh what is it called but he is very respected you know yeah yeah but malik is very respected unanimously of course of course i mean he had these views but then uh they didn't dare to you know yeah they there was this because of his you know his

whole amir menina phil hadith and then also his makam of medina it was really have you noticed that they do a lot of people don't call him hadith imam malik yeah now have you noticed that they did they tend to give that thing more to imam buhari like you know after the time uh passed like in in the day and age but he was he was always more known for no because he's he's in you see so he's in that a different era of so obviously imam bukhari is in the era of of tadwin and you know when books are

being uh you know manifold they're being written and all this but really the uh so obviously i mean they i'm sure they could say obviously imam bukhari but he's not from the see imam bukhari is from the people who are documenting hadith and reporting them but he's not a key uh player within the data he is he's a person who gathers the data memorizes it and and and documents it and passes you know and the book can be passed on imam malik

is from the era where these are the the the core players of hadith so the kind of particip you know the participants of hadith so in his age really is some of the amir [Music] i don't think i've heard that he was uh sharper was really he you know he was so strict about um

he's really strict on this whole tattlist thing and he was so uh so you know you know the famous uh mahatma misharib nakadam uh he's one of the rawies one of the the participants in in the actual um hadith data itself so he it's really interesting actually because he gets shobber as a young lad uh becomes in a positive way fixated with him uh trying to learn from him and he's so keen and he's following him around and he attends all his classes and shopper is at that stage his father's

passed away so he's just a single child with his mom so misar marries his mom and so he marries his mom and kind of adopts him and misato seems to be quite wealthy and so this obviously changes the whole fear you know the landscape for shot by and chopper really gets into hadith and he's so harsh that he he said about at least that he he would consider it haram that he has the statement he would say things like uh if that zina is more acceptable than tadlis he would say that as in he would

the attitudes are so surprising they're like whoa the world's apart you've got like shabbat on one end who's like this is haram you know uh this is much it's it's you know it's it's it's easier for oh it's better for a person that they're committing zina then they're committing at least and it's like whoa okay and he would say all these kind of things like that he would say like these really out there statements condemning to the least you know on on the topic of hadith there's one question that i had i wanted to know your view on this because as we said both of us you know we changed our views with time and this and that

be more forgiving and you know more broad-minded in that sense but what i would like to know from you is you know say a book like a extremely popular book like for the amman you know okay which is a book which is uh for the people who don't know you know that is a book which is used by the tabli jamaat uh which um is one of the largest probably working around jamas in the world right now like there's every country that there is a debate of jamaat even i remember in germany we had some debris from like arabs from saudi arabia coming as a

table in jamaat here like okay yeah from medina i was like what you know so so they're they're everywhere everywhere so um they have this book called so what happens is now of course the author um and he is of course he told bukhari his whole life so he himself

um he himself of course knew a lot of hadith yeah but buhari isn't a you see isn't going to be what i want to get to what i want to get to is now he writes this book or compiles this book whatever did you know by the way it i think was in the book of father he he wrote he wrote himself

is not percent he said that something i wrote that yeah something like that so what i'm asking is do you see a benefit of right of weak hadith of we like because now i'm thinking i i i do in the sense of uh you know how i mentioned in the devotional uh kind of aspect that it comes back to the same thing like it's that same phenomenon i feel these things if they can serve the role as

akin to art in its expression then i would say that's you know to me that's more about the sacred and the sacred is ineffable so it's not something which can be put into words and really i do agree that the holy and the sacred is at the heart of religion religion is really not built on something right i mean it's it may be nested in reason but it's not about reason so religion is really about the sacred isn't it so religion is like if somebody used to ask you what is religion about like obviously you're going to say well it's about people worshiping but that's it like what is that

it's if you're to reduce it you keep reducing it you would reduce it to it is about the sacred now you could say well what is sacred or god or worship and this and so it's about the holy and what is holy god is holy and you worship god and so ultimately religion is about the holy or the sacred or however you want to express it now in that sense certain things if they help in a certain way sure the the problem is if it switches from that to um to a kind of data imperative where

people become all okay this is now reporting and it's now a textbook it's not art it's a textbook which must be learned for an of itself that becomes a problem and then it becomes you know if it's being taught as dogma that's another problem you throw in there and yeah so i so really i mean the the discussion um certain people like i would arabi for example is of the understanding that uh as was i believe imam bukhari as well as was i think um there were a few uh muhammad i think

ibna say the nurse and a few people that were of the understanding that uh weak ahadis can not be [Music] that weak hadith can not be in used in any category of islam so they were really harsh about this yeah really harsh so but with time and there was a point where i cited that and i firmly accepted it and i used to express it um you know and i believed in it passionately but i think with age you come to realize right okay

it's i think much more complex than that that's a very simplistic way of looking you agree with my argument if i would say it is okay to do it for virtue of a good thing for for thy but it's not right to give it as a delete in arguing in a discussion in a pivotal kind of discussion uh who's that the the the weaker the weaker these in in a discussion for to make to make rules no no yeah it's okay to give it as a motivation virtue of something good which is proven like salah or which is proven like sadaqat and it's okay to do

that because there is no harm of course in it yeah only motivation but um to do it you know to bring it in an argument and and give it as a as a substantial kind of hadith and that would be wrong that is my assumption what do you think is that okay with you or like would you say that is okay right that's that's yeah that's interesting because i feel that um you see i'm not so sure um i i feel that

yeah because it's you see because if a person if a person mentions a weak hadith as a point of argument well you could always immediately respond with well that's a weak hadith of course so it it's you know it carries within it that function that you could respond with that it's not you know a person could say well this hadith is weak the only thing is that sometimes some weak hadith can be interesting to develop arguments

uh like maybe greater arguments or maybe a person is trying example they say about um the [Music] the argument has always been you know you know that they say there is no sahih hadith but they are like 17 or 20 weak hadith and that makes i think as many as i wrote down his book that he wrote because there's so many weak hadith i can at least say there is a facility okay i wasn't meaning that when i was saying it but i see what you're saying i meant it more no i would i didn't mean that personally

like that example i meant you see to me that is the just a devotional thing that people are doing which they're going to do anyway um so it goes back to that other discussion that we're having before to me i mean more like let's say like for greater things like um huh it's it's like i'm trying to think of i'm trying to think of some examples like let's say you um like you're trying to establish a greater point for something you're trying to state um

[Music] trying to think of certain examples where this could happen so let's say you're trying to show that the makasid of islam and the objectives of islam now what you show is that well according in a line with the makasid of islam the hadood are also uh kind of parameterized by their day and age and therefore as the dna changes the hadoo change this is let's say the the the demand of the makasid of the sharia

so this is this is the claim being made let's say now so this obviously several maliki's have done and this is why abu qasim al-buruli and all these people in the 7th century and 8th century said that the uh that the sharia dictates that the change and they changed them into other kind of financial stuff and penalties and things now let's say to establish that that they to establish this they are then leaning in on multiple now makasid is already established through it's induced by multiple readings of the

sources makassid that the uh objectives of the sharia muslim but okay but now you want to also demonstrate where certain punishments are being averted let's say or in the name of muslim forget that they're being averted but that there is some uh leeway with sanctions as well it's not categorical so let's say there is now a hadith in uh there's a hadith in bukhari but it has a greater explanation of the hadith in another book but even mentions it in fat alberti so you have the had the hadith in bukhari mentions

that a person came to the prophet and he said that look oh i've sinned and the prophet said well have you prayed your salah and he says yes he says well the salah is a forgiveness for the prayer uh sorry the salah is a forgiveness for the sin now uh so the person says oh okay now sorry this person doesn't say okay so this is the but that's the so okay so that that's the but in a greater explanation of this hadith as ibn hajjar will mention in fatal body and you'll get other may not have the same validity as the reward in bukhari but they are an ex they more expansive they elaborate so

they mentioned that the person comes and he says to the prophet that i've committed sinner and the prophet says have you prayed and he says yes and he says well the prayer you know it expiates sins forgive sins so now what or now let's say you take another hadith so okay you've got that one now you take another example which is in the muslims that some people were trying to establish the hat on maes aleslami so for the head of zina or of adultery sorry and so they're trying to establish this and he tries to run away

so they chase after him and they catch him now there's a reward in the muslims that says that the prophet appears to rebuke them and says why didn't you let him go he says you know if you'd let him go then he would have turned to god and god would have turned to him now well you may say well okay but this rewire you know it has some problem in it but so you take a collective of these things by the way that that is in the muslim environment it is also one of the

rewards of the uh humbly method that so now what you're doing is you are you have a principle but to instantiate it you're you're looking for certain incidents that may show a different manifestation of this principle and what you're finding sometimes to show may not match the rigor of let's say the certain mahadevin criteria of the island but to you that's momentarily irrelevant

let me ask you this like if you go by this principle in hadith now the problem is if you go by this principle it is i do understand it but for me the problem comes when some someone like me says okay the the coming of a mahdi in this day and age and the way we portray and tell our children listen this is how you know how it is and then i ask the question very simple okay is in the quran it's one of the biggest events of the history of the future and it's not in the quran and then again i ask is it is it malik and they say no and then again is in bukhari with that dope with that

story it's not it is is it muslim there is the the mahdi mentioned but it's not on that level you know muslim is the mahdi isn't mentioned there will be one imam that will come in it says that uh is speaking it says

but it says and in the other reward it says and he led you in prayer but and they say he's talking about jesus and in the other one he says what imam mukum so he's speaking about nazilan and then uh minkum and he either led you in prayer or somebody as what because the the alif whether the alif is there or not and that your imam is no but but let's say as i said clearly it's not mentioned in bukhari it's not mentioned in muslim it's not the mahdi thing yeah yeah exactly it's not mentioned in the motta

and it's not now when they bring a lot of maybe uh weak a hadith as a matter and then back up their story that's something right okay so that's that's a good that's a good point you see so right okay so there's a difference here you understand they don't if they use yourself no no because there's a difference here you see the difference is that on one uh but it's a very good question that is there a double standard

here then because on one exam one instant you're saying well okay we could rely on certain habits even if they're weak to let's say lend credence to a particular issue at hand on another case you're saying well look there is no single sahih in this matter because because especially so people like just so just to expand on that exactly just like people like you and me we don't even leave buhari alone because this is not better than that sticking to this topic because it's a very good it's a very good question now there is a primary difference what's happening here the difference is

here on one on one hand you're talking about let's say a an from the usual of sharia which is uh which is established through multiple evidences of the quran and sunnah so the usual of the sharia usually are established generally according to most of sulin some may say okay there's only but they are those who believe in them believe in them to be qatari they are based on several verses of the quran so uh the fact that islam has come for you is is an agreed upon general understanding amongst muslims that islam has come for your wealthy now based on

this right there is a principle known as sure not everybody accepts that the shariah has maqasid and islam has come with makkah and islam has come from muslim what they disagree on is that they accept that islam brought a toolbox and set up these things what they disagree is did it inherit you the toolbox to continue doing it this they disagree okay so those who accept it as an usual now you're talking about them speaking about particular rulings with the change of the day and age

this is about the applied and applied usual of islam this is very different very different because wherever you apply there will be a disagreement so let's say you apply analogy some scholars will say your chaos was clear you know even if they accept analogy they may say this instant this is instantiation of chaos was wrong was false so okay now so people will always disagree with your actual what they call take or not where you actually apply things

the other instant is not about uh usual applied or fatawa or it's about creed we're establishing a belief system within islam we're establishing it from scratch so it's not so we're not talking about we're not talking about what people end up doing you know a moment ago we spoke about people going to shrines and people doing things that's not a belief that's not a creedal institutionalized belief system that's just people acting rural people that you know that behave in certain ways we're talking about establishing from ground zero building up a belief system

so we're saying okay what we're going to do is we're going to add a belief system to islam and we want everybody to believe this this thing a this is an abstract theoretical belief system it is not about a rule like if somebody said look can we will do over nail polish nail varnish i say well okay let's look at you know in this day and age and let's look at this and now there's this little hadith here the hadith might be weak but we're start extracting this islam has come from muslim now you see this is about the applicability applied islam applied fit now some scholars may say no that that fatwa that this ruling given is wrong

others may say no actually i think it holds validity even if some of these hadith that you kind of use to extend credence to it are weak but there's a you know there's a meaning that's sure and that is nothing like establishing ground up a belief system so i say look okay you know what like let's say we set something up we say okay so what we're going to believe is that on saturn there is a particular angel that always rests on saturn that sits there and this angel's name is let's say we come up with a particular name now so we say this you know

we make something up this this angel is called this okay now it lives on the planet saturn and towards the end of time this angel will fly from saturn or it will bring saturn in to collide with the planet earth and say well where are you getting this from say well you know i've heard this or i'm basing this on this kind of interpretation of this verse where the the the cosmic bodies will collide and i'm basing it on this that there will be angels and i'm basically it's like you're giving people a belief system not based on the on on very clear

instruction from scripture you're just it's like this loose wishy-washy thing and you're setting up a entire belief system that is very different so here i would say no like why are you setting up a belief system i don't care if you believe in it but really to set it up uh where it isn't really in in the scripture yeah like like me as well i i always say to people who criticize me for it as well i always say i don't have a problem with people saying um you know there are weak hadith about the mahdi or whatever i don't have a

problem if it would be just that it would have been okay what the problem is if in every muslim family unanimously people talk about the mahdi as if it is the non-plus ultra which will happen and that is my problem the importance you give it is so big but he is not in the quran or in these three scriptures but are you with me in seeing the difference about hadith deployment to my point in the beginning

so that is kind of correct if i did say that for virtues no but it's not virtue it's not virtue you see we're using it for we're using it you can use a hadith which which is weak for something which has been already established but it hasn't been established but it hasn't been established in those cases you see like let's say i use the example of nail polish or i use the example of that this hasn't been established or if i use the example of uh not needing an alarm clock to wake up for prayer now let's say a person bases certain things on

now this is a ruling that they are giving and they may be using you see there is a difference between islam and iman okay now a person when used on their own they may be synonymous and when used together they definitely uh are individual so one is faith and the other is a system of worship and how you interact and buy and sell and how you deal all your kind of interactions so

in this uh can we base certain rulings based on things and can we generate rulings and get can we get guidance from the spirit of something like let's say we're trying to gauge the spirit of the attitude towards flexibility in something now what we do is we find five different instances which are talking about different things but they're showing an attitude of flexibility towards something now we induce that understanding that there is flexibility although and now we refer to let's say scenario six these were talking about

five things and this is now a totally different thing but it's speaking about flexibility with that same matter so we have acted we have induced a a kind of like a raider by which we've acted on something now sure the qaeda may be what they call montaria so you see this is different this is about rules and it's about how you kind of help people navigate through their day-to-day lives within islam the other one is to do with a faith a belief system a faith structure yeah

it's abstract it's not about you don't like it so for example if i told you there is an angel or there are angels that do something you there's nothing to act on i do i do like you don't you can't now say well okay now that i know this let's say i tell you know there's 50 000 angels which have these names there's nothing to act it's just information no it is a fair part i was just i was you know i was just like sometimes me as well like you know the problem is i do as i said i do accept it that i and i'm very lenient with it in this day and age that if someone says it and it has a good point like for salah or something i'm like okay like if it helps

with something here it helps it helps it helps but of course you know sometimes you have this i say the hadith critical glasses on and then of course we sure you know you and me we don't even leave as i said even bukhari is not above critique for us so we look at those hadith or other hadith from uh uh ahmad yasser about you know which a lot of people use in sahih muslim that they say okay muhammad is uh from the jamaa of jahannam so they use that hadith i even look at that so critically and i literally take it apart that element that part of the hadith is not sahih category exactly there's some people who are even saying

that yeah it was not yeah yeah and abdul haq half of the ishmaeli speaks on that and other people speak on it as well but there wasn't even one kind of you know so and just to be clear here look you know this bukhari thing as well it's not you know like you said it's not above it's not technically it's never been above critique for anyone uh starting with in imam bukhari's time and imam yeah then there's been a uh a canonicity a kind of canonization of sahihan and then it's become somewhat like beyond reproach but let's say we we have

presented certain critiques let's say of certain hadith even if they are in bukhari it's not about um it's not about a you know this is not about a kind of rebellion without a court this is not like a rebel without a cause kind of thing that people are like hey let's go criticize bukhari for the sake of bukhari the distinction is that we are showing like you spoke about the motto of imam malik earlier on imam malik is showing in the mother and the mother arguably by many people is above people people don't don't get it because you know but you know it is because it's because according to imam bukhari the

strongest chain on earth is imam malik's chain his golden chain and says look here's the hadith it is there the son of this sound but however we don't believe it is the sunnah yeah you see there's a distinction between hadith and sunnah now malik brings in the mother several ahadith and rejects them he says this hadith he says yeah like the dog for example he says that how can although that's in the

mother that's in in the madonna and other things but in the mata he brings several hadith and he says look here's the hadith but he says we in madinah do not accept this hadith like we do not practice this sure we can transmit it but it's not something that is practiced by in islam people get upset they say well how can imam ali bring the hadith narrate it and then say oh you know hadith you know in our uh in our city of medina we don't accept this hadith to practice by so and in the the dog one where that you mentioned that he says well how can the dogs

how can the dog saliva be impure if allah says when it goes hunting for you it's prey he says is halal he says he says but we've got no idea what what is this hadith meant to be like what is it meant to be we it doesn't make any sense because it goes against the quran so so this understanding of saying well just because a hadith it's sahih does not automatically translate

according to imam malik's mother and according to the hanafi mother at least imam abu hanifa if not all of his mother later on it does not translate to the sunnah that they will be a hadith they are not the sunnah they will be the sunnah which is not the hadith like imam alex was a the greatest argument for this hadith versus sunnah paradigm because yeah because the the amal is something which was the living tradition he was like of course his time frame was so tight that he

uh he could argue that he could argue he was in the position to argue it because time was on its side you know and you know the problem is a lot of these things i was having an argument with the with a very uh good friend of mine he's a discussion i hope an argument discussion and he's very well read mashallah but he is right now uh interestingly he's a convert and he he's he is right now in this position where he's doubting sunni islam because of some shia kind of um you know revelations that came to him and stuff and you know uh they sent him

this link of uh of this message oh imam shafer he said about that masala with the daughters and stuff you know what i mean you know so they like look they say this and they say that whatever so i spoke to him and i'm like so what even like even if there is a laugh in the shopping mess up so what it's ridiculous you know what what uh what are they trying to say so what happened is what happens with this whole hadith thing is if we take you know people and just like moralize them in the sense of they can't make mistakes and all these great imams and this and that what happens is

a lot of these sheer beliefs are in some sunni books which is not sahih as a hadith but we in ibn imagine there was this hadith you know and all these things so they come and then they say oh there you see hasita right just check out this hadith in your own book even this term the authoritative six i mean this this is not a you know this is a much later invention if i'm correct is i i think it's the ceos some people don't even put them in the sahasrara no they don't they in the house isn't the sahasit the coined why is it

or no i mean no i mean who comes up with this this classification i think it's uh i mean these are much later scholars much after all so it's not uh it's it's really just chef scholars that kind of come up with this and obviously they don't include him would you say what would you say to someone like him the convert uh like if he if he says okay there is this whole problem of which narrative to believe now of course we have a hadith on this

side which are all from sunni imams but then we have a hadees on that side now for someone saying of course sunnis will support the sun doctrine and the other side will support the other doctrine so how can i be sure he's like in this you know and everything you say he's like a full glass of water everything you say to him just pours around and you know it's uh it's it's really hard to get into into into uh a discussion where he where he may be fruitful you know you see the thing is that

right the sunni shia kind of polemics are much greater than just a hadith here or they rule you know it's really all centered around a uh historical political issue after about who should succeed no of course in leadership after the prophet alaihi should it be in a royal bloodline or should it be in the companion that is really just the crux of this issue that the sunni shia divide is just that matter and then everything else is like an extrapolation and something

built upon it so i wouldn't even you know these other little issues person saying this saying that it doesn't it's neither here neither there it doesn't really mean much because if you're gonna say well look oh there's a crazy fatwa in some of the sunni schools sure i mean there's crazy fatwas everywhere you're going to find in the shia school like abu bakr for him it was i think more about these things about abu bakr umar and saying

tried to kill the prophet and they did kill the prophet at the end and in the whole the whole thing then so he's like what if it is okay so so this okay so he he so here's where i'm at look you know with these things i i feel that look here's here's how i would this is my thing on this look how i see it the prophet sallam these are his people yeah like i don't mean i don't mean the greater uh landscape i mean i mean like the with with some reasonable proximity okay within the the parameters

of reason proximity like closeness so if i was to say to you or if i'll give my own example you know forget that like who do i consider my family and my friends like actual friends like let's say people i hang out with people i eat with people i talk to let's say every single week people i chill out with i discuss problems with people i like and then there will be people that i know like let's say you've got facebook friends like 5 000 friends there like they're not they most of them i wouldn't even know them they're just facebook friends so there are layers to this thing but i

mean given reasonable proximity those people who really have some meaningful interaction with your life and they are your people quote unquote yeah and the wives of the prophet are the prophet's wives like they're his intimate his his the people that give him uh they not only share that intimacy with him they share a sense of peace and solace and and this this very private moment and emotionality with the prophet sallallahu alaihi now and considering considering so right if these people

so this is this is you know where i'm at with this and how i see it if these people were conspiring to plot and kill the prophet and they were really greedy and they were really malicious and malignant kind of souls and they had very cancerous entities that surround that the prophet had surrounded himself with yeah what kind of gender i then i would say that that you see if i was to say that to me that is then a poor reflection

of the prophet salallahu because if i'm to say well i spent my life surrounding myself with people who were really always plotting against me and i somehow these are the people not only do i surround myself i marry them and so i just marry people who really all are plotting against me what kind of judgment does that show about me like what you know if that that that's to say well oh you know well this person didn't you know is this this person's judgment of people that he surrounds himself makes friends with people who are just toxic and uh so that's how i

see this that to me obviously this is not how the shia see it but to me if i saying something like this is akin to saying that well that's that the prophet then it's a bad it's a reflection of his poor judgment well i have to be like god forbid and to me that's like how could that be so that's exactly you know it's just the point where we came at the end we came to that and i said that exactly what you said word for where i said at the end of the day if we leave everything i trust the judgment of the prophet sallallahu alaihi exactly and we have makes a wife if he

has a friend he if abu bakr is his father-in-law his best friend like you can't deny their connection and even deny it yeah like and i think it's to me yeah so that's the thing that said look so that's how i exactly that's exactly how i say and people look friends amongst themselves the friends amongst with the friends may have disagreements and it's very normal like i could look at my life and think well oh yeah this friend of mine disagrees with that friend sometimes and he disagrees with this you say the hadith you know to say that the hadith about umar which is also in our books you know that he the the the the you know where he said to the prophets on the quran is

sufficient of us for us you know and uh when he was you know a few days before he and he wanted to say something and you know write it uh let it written down on stuff so when they give that argument i think it was even a hazom who wrote didn't he write that in that sense we'll have to say omar was wrong we wrote um because that hadi is it's like would you say that it is because of course they say in the hadith it says um then they it would it became very loud and the prophets also said okay you know

both of now of course she has said that you know see omar they will say look to me this thing like like in all honesty these things are you know that this is irrelevant like it's immaterial because it's not what regardless of what people say it's not what the argument is about the argument is simply one thing that does succession lie with a bloodline or does it lie based on a meritocracy you mean generally generally now that is it these things are irrelevant like let's say that hadith didn't even exist

the shia argument is still there like they're still like whether that incident exists or doesn't exist to me look this is just okay a person could say oh look oh this supports our cause oh this supports our cause oh this supports our cause the point is a simple argument that look does islamic leadership lie in a holy bloodline or does it lie on does is everybody capable anybody capable they know now most muslims believe that there was no sacred bloodline they respect the bloodline of the prophet sallallahu alaihi islam but it wasn't uh this it wasn't sacred in the sense that

leadership is contained within it within islam that they felt that no like people rise based on their merits that they could be a person who's from the family of the prophet and he could be a disbeliever of could be a non-muslim abu lahab right so it's not about being related to the prophet sure if a person is pious and virtuous and from the family of the prophet that wow you know that could be like but just being from a bloodline uh does not offer anybody anything special like saying you know if a person didn't believe in islam didn't do anything that

says oh i'm from the offspring of uh it doesn't it doesn't mean anything you know it doesn't give them any special value according to most muslims so according to the the other argument now within the holy bloodline it must this is how there must be succession it cannot so this is it really it doesn't now the data some people say well this it's to me it's immaterial it doesn't because you could say we could take a hadith and you could say well oh this hadith has a point over there and you could even remove it all together and they still stand you know they don't patch up so

and and then i do feel look i feel that when it comes to these things sunnishi are things they already set in their ways and they're established and it's never gonna change it's never gonna change there's no point i don't see a point in debating it i don't see a point in trying to say people become these people become that let people be you know if people are ashy are they shiite people need this sunni sure you might get a one-off person he goes from sunni to shia you might get a one-off person he goes from shia to sunni but for the most part they just stay you know it's like if you're considering numbers at large

it doesn't it stagnates it doesn't really change tiny numbers here and there on a greater platform are insignificant you know they don't make a difference this isn't a member's club look everybody ultimately is trying to be true to islam trying to have their devotion to god and i think we have much more we can establish as some commonality of course common grounds and move forward with the kind of you know a bridge of harmony and inshallah compassion and love your take on that that's why i just he came to me and he was you know and that's why i

just asked you you take yeah yeah so but yeah wow you know what it has i know we've taken up so much of your time as well one personal question i have a very small personal question i would have just just the last one um you know you you have a very um you know you have a mashallah a really big journey and stuff and i admire your journey as well but one question which i have is you know you have probably put up with so much i'd say i would say hate or maybe comments or

maybe about your about your appearance about what you say about that you're on the wrong path how do you how when you tackled it did you have help from your family or where because you know i connect with you in a big way you know because because i've had that i've had a lot of things because of course because of my own sins as well you know be being having you know being people expect you to be perfect people expect you to be if you do something it's it's like for example if you date a girl it's if i do that it's much worse

than someone my age would do maybe when it was 22 if i go to into a cafe why are you sitting there with friends who are maybe you know mixed and stuff it's much worse for me and people people are not that forgiving or if if someone if someone is taking a loan from someone and has not paid it back they'll say oh his problems but if i do it it's like oh my god he's using his position to maybe do that to people so it's a lot of things in every way which how have you dealt how how did did your family support you i would i would that's a personal

question i sure i mean i right i hmm it's not that my family wouldn't support me but i don't think i um necessarily leaned in on family um i think i tell you to go to a different path because there was this sorry did they tell me to take it differently no i no my my family have really just not been um you know they've not been uh involved in my kind of religious journey that much really they've done they've not i mean when i grew up we

weren't really from a religious uh kind of upbringing or family i mean we're obviously all muslim but we weren't really inclined to some kind of like a fervor of practicing islam we're just culturally like you know people just cultural my choice to study islam was my own choice and initially it was actually frowned upon by my family because they saw it as not that they were against islam but they saw it as kind of useless and redundant to why would a person want to study islam and spend years well you know it doesn't make any sense you know because to them islam meant like if you want to pray pray that's a

good thing but what's this about going away for years and wanting to study something what do you need to study just be really good be a good human being it's as simple as that you know you don't need to so my journey was like that then with time obviously as i kind of committed to it and i learned and i studied and did have then did ireland course did multi-course and i guess they came to recognize that okay he's done these things and you know these things hold a certain value obviously they know what the things are but i think each person to like let's say my parents and stuff like like i would just be i'm just i suppose maybe now a bit different

because i'm older now i'm 43 but let's say when i finished studying i was just 25 i guess to them i was just a kid still so that's pretty much stayed for most of the part to them i'll just be a kid like they wouldn't really refer to me on anything religious they wouldn't say oh we've got a religious issue let's ask him they wouldn't ask me ever like because it would just be it's that thing i mean not that kind of times what would you that that's what i think the core of my yes so these hard times so they weren't really involved so i don't even think they were so aware of my it's just it was just different paths

like they weren't on the path to be like they weren't like my parents are not going to be on facebook or not going to be on so they don't really know like let's say oh they they'll know oh yeah he teaches online does stuff online but what does he do what is it they're not really aware obviously they see me let's say okay i've got a goatee i've got this i've got that they see it but they they don't really they didn't interfere in the sense like say why don't you do this why don't you do that they didn't really do that and and i'm grateful because it allowed me the kind of freedom to be who i wanted to be and to what i felt was right as to dealing with criticism yeah i think i've always you know since

uh i think since childhood certain people you know we developed um just because of the the kind of lifestyle we were exposed to we developed a very uh um like a tough resilience to a lot of things like you know i had an incredibly tough upbringing uh so i was very very just resilient to things in the sense that when i see people sometimes you only realize it when you see other people without it then you realize ah okay so a person obviously i'm much older than you as well so we're going back

and the environment was different people were different the upbringing was different it was really you know really difficult so when you go through stuff like that you're very you kind of create your own world and you can you have to you have no choice but to kind of to get up and keep going moving forward you have to kind of soldier on in the face of things you can't let things get you down otherwise you know as a kid i would have ceased to exist it wouldn't have so now when you have when you when you have that within you you you and then i guess certain aspects of maybe like i had a

personality as well that that liked humor that saw the funny side to things and so that helps incredibly and then i definitely have a very good network of friends that i would uh always kind of lean in on and and you know that's really important to have your own little world of people that you entirely trust but that's like for example that is one thing i literally did when i trusted people with if you know when you when you're very close friends you trust people with your sins as well right like you don't just tell them the

the sunny side of yourself you you tell them the ugly side of yourself you tell them what you maybe did which you regret in life you know and the problem is when when when i did that to some extent what i saw is a lot of people said oh that's absolutely okay because you're a human like us just because you're a scholar it doesn't mean that you're perfect you're the same age as us you know we do do these things so it's okay but when when they don't like you to some extent in some part of their life they actually use it against you to expose you and then you're like sure and then

i mean a person yeah 100 look you need a good network of solid friends now to me look my friends yeah like we we have an invaluable network of friends here now to us now it's it's not sure we speak about religious stuff as well a lot we actually do speak about that stuff a lot but out of interest not out of um so it's because we legitimately have an interest in these things but it's not about you see i guess if you have true genuine friends

uh you don't really fear this kind of stuff like obviously people are all mature maybe it's an age thing as well like obviously we're we're a lot older so uh you know you don't have this like we don't like i wouldn't like if a person was like that like let's say they were oh people out that kind of hold some maliciousness against you they would not be in my circle of friends full stop like i think you'd have a certain amount of intuition to know and people like that may just be friendly with but they would not be my friend friend like they wouldn't be within an inner circle or even people that i would hang out with if i felt they're just people who

hold some kind of toxicity before right no but sometimes you can you know that there there is intuition you know you can usually tell that such and such people you know they're okay with me but they you know they sometimes i get this vibe from them so i alhamdulillah that's so yes friends are very important your own well-being and i think you have to there's there's a considerable portion where you have to not let people's words and opinions get to you look the world would never be happy with you it doesn't it doesn't matter like you have to sometimes

you have to go with what you you know you are on your path your journey you have to go with what what you're striving for people will mock you people will laugh at you exactly and tk happens all the time you know like when you if you're going to listen to each person that's going to come about criticizing you then but i do think what happens is look we all you know it's it's a journey i do think that sometimes um you know it's growth you know like you live you learn you grow you know what's life without growth there's no life it's it's it's actually a key component of life is growth so if something isn't growing in some way whether it's cellular whatever it is

there's no life it would be dead so i do look back at my own journey and i think like from from this perspective where i am now i think look that this uh you know there's been a lot of this you know it's been interesting but there's been uh there's a lot of things that i think that were which i could have done a lot better and i think well you know i was also equally i think sometimes even with like you say you know you you get some of the uh antagonism and i think you'll get some antagonism because you'll just get that because some people are just bitter people like you could just come out today and say something really nice like you say you know people

smile it's a great day you know may allah bless you you may say something nice you know i'm making dua for everyone here and somebody will probably come on and say you know what an idiot what a plonker you know you'll get some hateful people just because they are miserable people and they extend their misery onto other people but some antagonism you may get as because of how you are behaving how you what you are doing maybe some people weren't going to be antagonistic but you antagonized them and you know and that's maybe part of your development your own journey that you haven't reached the problem is when you do that when you do that like for

example me i do realize that i've done a lot of things wrong in my life you know i've uh you know you you have a personal uh yeah i i don't mean about i'm not talking about like personal stuff in the sense of holding standing holding true to the values of islam with me for example i have i i regret a lot of stuff like everyone probably in their life everybody regrets everybody but then what holds me back is that i think oh my god because i have sinned now if i go like in in public and start talking about islam again maybe

people who know about my sins will try to expose me and that holds me back from giving um i mean you know and then i look at someone like you and i i'm like subhanallah and you think well he's seen so much no no no no no you can take criticism and it's it's like like yeah like i don't like the you know i don't like the uh i abhor the the kind of um you know this this culture that you're saying tries to uh shame people and expose them and because what they say is everyone makes mistakes but look at you you're a you're a guy you're a i don't you see to me my world isn't

like i don't i'm not you see i don't view the world with this lens of things like sins and like i recognize what you're saying obviously i understand it but to me that this is i think people need to work on their relationship with god like to me my relationship of with god is not through this lens of oh how many it's not like a bank balance like how many sins have i committed and how many has this like it's not like that it doesn't that's just my my way that's my way it's not that way so it's it's a very different like i don't see god as like an accountant i see allah as the the source of infinite

transcendental love that he is so it's very different and so so but i agree with you people sure if people are constantly on your back and they're trying to harass you or they're trying to let's say this cancel culture like oh if you start doing something good now and people say oh you know i know sheikh abdul rahman gori from five years ago and you know he used to go to a club hahaha and so now when he does this lesson about fair or hadith i'm going to i think look you know this council culture thing this is it's just so

you know so abhorrent but it happened to naman ali khan even of course of course of course i mean obviously it was the the whole thing that but the the the point is that look i i don't know what to what extent somebody and what they have on people and what they're going to share but i would say that look you just if you can it depends look maybe some of this culture like you do think to yourself even this being public and doing this stuff sometimes you think to yourself there is this question you think is this even worth it like you know what is the

the point of this like the i think every critical person will question themselves at some point think that look okay what am i doing you know like why am i even doing this and and sure like maybe you think well you know alhamdulillah like maybe there's so many people i've helped along the way and maybe it's part of my journey to to help me and to help me to help people as well and to and fine maybe to some people they'll think you know what what is the point of this headache like why even go online why not just live your life and do your thing but if you are committed to this cause especially if you're a share like if you've done all these studies and you

think i want to teach then you know what what why not do some hate and some goodness if you're going to spread some love and you're going to spread some teachings some teachings with love then look people are going to criticize you they're going to honestly like i think sometimes you just have to soldier through it like you a lot look allah will shine his grace you know it's not look if we're just going to think well you know five years ago or this person was in a club or three years ago this person was on this thing doing this and oh my god he's teaching hadith now or he's teaching and

let's cancel him and if we we have to just i think a person just gets over it and worst case look worst case if the if that that is the case a person look either just ignore it or a person addresses it and if they want to they don't need to address it but they if they feel look yeah it was what it was and here i am i'm trying to do something good you know if you don't if you don't want to listen to it don't listen to it but it's you know that it's really hard to to you know with these thoughts i think like i think sometimes i i personally think that you don't focus on the distraction

you focus on your goal okay this is this is how i see things and this is the way of the world if you want to get something done in life you don't focus on the distraction so if people are going to distract i personally wouldn't focus on it but some people do some people and that works for them some people do say look okay i want to explain all of these things and i want to do all of this and maybe it works for them and so people in my life which i have to say is uh my older sisters you know they uh from abroad from belgium and netherlands they were the only ones who actually told me always you know do you think forget the criticism and even you know

you yourself they used to say when i used to tell them that i you know they used to say look you know mufti bulith and stuff they used to say look uh he does himself so you know you can you can do it just just stay above the criticism so i have to give them a shout out you know of course no may allah bless them i mean there you go all right much much respect to you keep supporting him yeah all of you keep supporting him yeah and so i and look this just look if you can do some goodness and if you feel you know what look if you feel this is your calling yeah

then you know this that verse that allah says that look at us yeah to ibrahim ali salam that but he's saying but i can't see anyone at them look you build it they shall come you know they will come like you can't see it emotional no but it's it's true though it's you know you you do it and you know something i tell you there is a there is something to be grateful about not having the greater responsibility of having so of being so you know stay humble you know like i was speaking

to someone um a month ago and they said look um you know they were telling me oh you know if only i'm trying to work to get you in this other platform and to you know may allah bless him is really you know such a kind heart and so sincere heart and i said look i said that you know where i am today i said honestly i'm saying this with with with from my heart yeah maybe you know people i don't know if let's say two years ago if you're to say this where i am today i said i feel that you know what just let me be you know you say like i let's say i have a few people

that listen to me i'm happy with that i don't want like i fear the fact that when a person has so much attention that it enslaves them like i feel that i like will i just become a slave to to the to the fuse to the oh my god i have to do this and and it's not that people are weak it's that this thing of the view of the glance is so powerful even the strongest will crumble succumb to its pressure so so i in a way it's such a blessing that i feel you know we're saying

earlier on like you mentioned you mentioned these people that have changed it's this is the reason why it's so tough for them because they have you know millions of people now when you have that it's so tough and you think to yourself that look you know there's that um um what is it he says you know we'll just set up our little nest on some low uh hanging twigs you know it's okay that our nest won't be so high but neither will it

fall you know it's it's okay we're on this world we'll say our things we'll smile maybe we'll kind of uh kindle a few hearts with the passion and we'll we'll kind of move on and it's you know it's it's enough yeah i think honestly this this is something that uh i've i've i'm just starting to appreciate more and and feel so that's my that said i am telling all the viewers that watch this that whatever your pages or your channel do uh i'll put it up send it to me and i'll put it up in the description and guys if

you do follow it and uh and do you support motivation to all of uh the people who are watching you know and we'll watch this in the future maybe i'll have to say you are a big you know they're not of a lot of people like i know what i'm talking about you know this guy is one of a kind i have to say that you know he is one of kind with his humor of course as well sacred humor but with his alhamdulillah with his views and the way he approaches things and the way he's open to criticism and you know due to new theories and stuff this is one of a kind and uh

um you should inshallah in in the near future it will grow and grow and grow but is it is really you guys are lucky to have this man uh teaching you about religion 100 percent allah bless you man you motivated me a lot because you know when i saw you i was like there is a guy in you know like me out there who has these similar views and of course was there but i i we res and resonate more with you because of you because of the way you are you know and because of the way people criticize you so alhamdulillah you know keep up the

good work that's allah bless you allah bless you you know what keep you smiling for that i appreciate it man i appreciate your words uh we'll wrap up we really we went on i think we spoke about so many things from the journey of madrasa to the critique of and the study of hadith books to what is the definition of shirk and you know to to how people psychologize and coming right to concepts like mahdi and and then hadith discussions and now this and i think so you know how to face quite a lot so much that let's see what the viewers say people do leave a comment when you do

watch this and we'll wrap this up so shukran for you guys really you know being patient and and really just joining in this journey uh with us much love to you may allah always keep you guys blessed do uh you know spread your love show your love if you i will uh get a link as well in the description for sure abdul rahman gori's pages or his sites or channels if if they're available and do like follow and express that support if you do want to reach out if they want to reach out to you where should they reach out

i honestly like i i'm completely off uh instagram pages and stuff but my i might you know uh just um okay so okay um so if you want to reach out to sheikh for now you can just send a pigeon just let it go wherever you know what i'll do what i'll do on a serious note because you said it i will set up a instagram account and uh you can just link it for any questions especially for people in germany if they have any questions related in german or

maybe absolutely english of course he's available there is right so people i'll get banned [Laughter] is more in some ways it's more powerful that look how the water varies whether it's wadu or russell or what the ammon remains how it is it encompasses everything [Laughter] so people there you are i will uh do that i will share it and if you want to reach out to me you're more than welcome to uh

shout give me uh drop me a message on instagram uh you're more than messy you're more than welcome to actually for more in-depth interactions and one-to-one discussions reach out to me on patreon uh on just patreon forward slash malm and you can subscribe and you can get one-to-one sessions you can join uh a discord server you can you have different options do you you don't do you have patreon share no i don't okay sure so that may be something in the future but right guys much love take care of yourselves so share you as well first and foremost we've really taken so much of your time

people salaam alaikum is