Jake Brancatella | Reflections & Reasons for Rejecting Quran-Only-movement | Mindtrap with Mufti #29

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all right so I've shifted it to this audio that's just the standard audio it's nothing special but at least it shouldn't be rattling just get on with it Mufti turn that button off okay we should you know any buttons there are refer to me there's like so many buttons right so and God knows why he's been doing that he wasn't doing it for Monday nights this one's a bit clearer yeah but

okay people let's get this show on the road all right so let me just bring up let me take that off because I can see myself playing Bach to me she's confusing itself people let me bring before you these deemed guests tonight this picture you seen right there the eyes our esteemed guests tonight look at that chillin out right there none other than Jake Branca tell our people the man the myth let me bring him right before you the Italian stallion this is in Jake

assalamu alaikom and sugar and for coming on my trap with Mufti Harley Camus salon thanks for bringing me on Harley we we think we cracked the code here we I think we eventually didn't I've had to resort to a more a secondary class of of a microphone I don't understand what this is do it must be then something to do with the number 19 I think right people those of you that are not familiar with Jake Branca teller

he's from America born and raised New Jersey somebody who converted to Islam he's been on a journey of Islam ever since some of that initially took him through the poor and only moved more recently through more mainstream Orthodox Islam in addition to studying Islamic things at an academic level as well but Jake in your words tell us a bit about yourself right so I'm from New Jersey at about 21 years old I converted to Islam through one of my friends in high school actually introduced me and I started

reading up on the Quran and basically I converted because I was a lot more comfortable with the theology in the court on as opposed to the Bible and for rejecting the Trinity and incarnation and things like that and initially I was into the Quran only movement which is a certain sect if we could call it that that adheres to following only the court on in in regards to guidance and anything for the Dean as opposed to traditional Sunni Islam which accepts

the Sun now so I was into that for about seven years and only about about a year or so ago I converted I guess you can say to a traditional sunny orthodox understanding Wow so really just very fresh so okay so right this whole appealed to the movement that you had as you converted to Islam I mean white

white white not only why was that so appealing so when I first started reading the Quran of course I was totally ignorant about the Deen and just by reading it I didn't notice pointing to the Sunnah or anything like that so I started to roll in discussions with one of my friends he kept mentioning things to me and he would say well the court arms this plan on says there but I would look and I would say well man that's that's not in there I don't see that he said oh well maybe it's in the hadith I said well what's the hadith what is that about

so I looked it up and I started doing some research and I'm saying well I don't know this doesn't make sense to me so I said well are there any other Muslims out there that believe just like me the only that put on and I came across relief is just just to get an idea how many years ago we talking at this stage we're talking eight years ago eight years yeah so I started researching I came across Rashad Khalifa's work online and then through him I found eat at excells work and we

heard news professor on the show as well so yeah right yeah and I've met him and I've been in communication with him for several years now I would consider him a friend although right now we have a disagreement and dispute going on with Quran only versus Quran and Sunnah but I have not nothing against him and yeah so I came across those works and I was into that for about seven years heavily into it I had my own YouTube channel which I promoted this sort of put on only

ideology and eventually through doing more research over the past year or so I felt that there were certain holes in the narrative that couldn't be I could no longer defend the position and that's when I eventually became traditional Sunni Muslim I'm seeing okay out of curiosity as well what was the initial the initial interest in Islam was Christianity yeah well so I was raised a Roman Catholic but there were several doctrines in Catholicism that

didn't make sense mainly one at you to talk about the doctrines that related to God that God is a Trinity Riaan Wong and the incarnation that a human being could both be all-knowing and get ignorant at the same time this led me to so many contradictions and problems that Islam to me with the oneness of God offered a solution okay

you know this whole kind of going on

between you between the two

yeah felt what I have come across devastating arguments against a put-on only position I might want to say a little bit more about what the foot on only position is yeah before I was actually critique it yes what wonder the one of the fundamental pillars if you could say that regarding the Quran only position is that they believe that the messenger sallallahu aleyhi will send him only received the Quran okay so the only why he that he received a revelation that he

received was only the Quran and so because of that they feel that his authority was restricted to the core top if that makes sense now the traditional Sunday narrative is that no look he did receive the Quran but he receives something else other than a put-on there was other revelations that he received and that is part of the Sun now that we come across okay so the the fundamental verse that the court honest use or one of them at least is in the court on chapter 6 verse 19 and I'm

gonna read from rashad Khalifa's translation what he has only because the footnote that he puts in his book is relevant and people can look it up for themselves but he actually has a subheading right before the verse and it says the court armed the whole Quran and nothing but the foot hop he says say whose testimony is the greatest say God's he is the witness between me and you that this Court arm has been inspired to me to preach it to you and whomever it reaches indeed you bear witness that there are other gods

besides God say I do not testify as you do there is only one God and I disown your idolatry and then in the footnote in regard to this verse he says this verse proclaims the Quran as the only source of religious guidance those who uphold additional sources such as hadith and Sunna lies attributed to the Prophet he has in parentheses are defined as idolaters so not only is he advocating a different perspective from the traditional narratives he's saying anyone who upholds another source

besides the Quran is a mushrik and you can find this in EDA puke Souls works as well and another popular court on only person who I studied with for at least five years many years Hamza Abdul Malik he also has said similar things so fundamentally the idea is that the messenger only received the Quran okay so my my goal in this discussion is to prove that that is not the case and if I prove that

he received other revelation apart from the court on that would disprove that Quran only position okay so just to be clear what we you see it what what you're saying is that or on only the tourists they it's not that they are just saying that we you know we only gonna follow these because we're certain this came to us in Islam but they're taking a very harsh stance against those people who follow something other than that seeing it almost as idolatry right

that they're there of the mushrikeen and they're bound for hell fire which is quite for me a really radical and bold statement to make and I mean I where where do you see a law's mercy in in this sort of view because for people who aren't familiar the court honest sect if we can call it that is I mean I don't know how much you would say a tenth of a percent of the entire Ummah or the world at that so yeah you would have the the

afterlife would look rather grim for most of us what do you feel that this is this is just hyperbole you know when people say so for example when I did two years ago I did my kind of project called behind gate with a lot of the issues found inside Mojave some of at that time I also referred to many current academics in the Arab world who were doing a similar project and there was somebody a doctor or a Rashid eval I

believe his name was but he has something on Behati and I referred to his book in my research as well but he calls he speaks of bihari that this was that this is now was become the idols of new the gods of knees and we need to kind of smash these idols but he doesn't he's not a or an only person and this is just speech you know like what people are talking they kind of exaggerating a point and is this not the same thing that or honest are just doing or do you feel that why do you feel it's so literal no it is quite

literal and I'll read from a footnote on this a commentary which Edom yüksel has in his court on on which you had on your show he has a comment on the same first he says accepting other authorities besides the Quran to define God's system is considered polytheism and then he lists a bunch of verses chapter 6 verse 112 and onwards he lists like five verses so from my experience and I've had seven about seven years in in that camp I know very clearly from them and

they're prominent figures that they believe that anyone who accepts a religious authority besides the Quran is a mushrik in the harshest sense of the word and you know maybe it wasn't so clear with Professor Eid upon the last discussion but I guarantee you that if if we had a discussion between the two of us he would make that abundantly clear and he in fact goes even further that not only if anybody else accepts another source besides the court on but

if you reject his mathematical nineteen so-called miracle you are in the same boat so that makes the the field even more narrow that simply rejecting nineteen makes you a calf it so on the one hand and I mentioned this previously on the one hand they present themselves as very liberal and open-minded but on the other hand when you don't agree with their understanding of what it means to be liberal and open-minded kind of like the radical they dropped the hammer down on you and say you're you're a mushrik and you're

going to hell so that's and you were also willing I mean I don't know whether this will happen in the future but you were willing to take on a debate enter into a dialogue or a stroke debate with Professor Edith yes I've been in communication with him since his appearance on your channel and your show and I mentioned it's him I'm more than happy to have a discussion with him or also a former teacher of mine or one of

my companions hams are a bloom addict I'm opening a friendly challenge to both of these individuals to come on here or any platform that they wish and have a debate or discussion on this topic because I feel that they cannot answer the problems that I'm presenting so okay let me let's kind of zoom out for a moment let me present you because you've been through this whole or honest journey for many years now that's in seven years of your life right so let me let me ask you something now just the

common questions as a devil's advocate that look hadith have doubt in them there's many hadith that are absurd that have been that I would say you know that I have said that that hadith is absurd there's no way you can you know the denigrate prophets the prophet Moses running around showing people his testicles and things like this inside of a party how these kind of hadith are absurd and by no means could ever be sound and if they are sound then Islam has a problem if you know it's either/or

now how how can you have trust in hadith this is a a common question so I mean as somebody who's been through that journey what what is your response how can you have yeah it's a good question and you were getting that when you asked me before is it that these people just have doubt in the the idea that the Sunnah was preserved in this vehicle of hobby or

are they rejecting the concept of Sunnah as a whole and from my personal experience they are rejecting the concept of Sunnah as a whole and I'm getting to your question but the way that this is known is if you simply ask them if the if you were alive at the time of the messenger peace be upon him and he said to you something he gave you a command and you asked him is this in the Quran and he said no they would say that they would not be obligated to follow his command if it was something

outside of the court on you see just just occur so they would not be obligated to what to follow to the prophets come on we are saying in his lifetime I'll be saying after his lifetime we're saying in it so the Companions around him yeah yeah if they asked the Prophet but it's not in the Quran they don't need to follow it yes that's what that's their position that's what their position is so it's not only saying that the vehicle that was attempted to be used the hadith to preserve the Sunnah there's so much doubt in it that we can't accept it

no their position is even further that the Cole idea and concept of some not in general is an idol besides a law and that if they were alive say me and you were alive at the time of the Prophet and he gave us a command and it was not in the Quran itself they feel they would not be obligated to follow what the Prophet said okay that's very fascinating because I was assuming that this issue is an epistle logical people of histological right so this was more to do with how do we know

the Prophet said this so because we can't be certain of the medium therefore we're gonna take it we can't take it you know in stout phille I guess I'm assuming that but wait this is opening a whole new layer of things this is saying okay revelation itself yeah because as I read from that verse in chapter 619 they are using that and in my observation incorrectly they're using that verse to say that the messenger the only thing that was revealed to him that he had that was why

he from a law was the Quran and because of that they're restricting his authority to the Quran only you see and so that's why when you when you mentioned oh well how do we know about the hadith can you bring up a good point I just want to kind of move back a couple steps when I first became Muslim no was a problem take back all the steps yeah so when I first became Muslim one of the problems that I had was that when I found out about this whole idea of hadith I purchased a whole Bukhari and Muslim collection and I still have them

and I started reading through them and I said what there's so many things in here that either make no sense or contradict the Quran itself I said wow if I'm gonna get into this stuff I have to accept all this now because I was being told by the some knees in my area that if you reject even one hadith from Bukhari and Muslim that you become a catheter or a deviant or or some some name tag that you're gonna apply to you I said well the hell with it then I'm throwing the whole baby out with the bathwater I'm not accepting some of this nonsense like in Bukhari

you have a hadith that talks about when the Prophet Musa I guess there was his time according to the hadith that the the Angel of Death came to him and he turned around and he's I'm not going anywhere he punched the angel of death in the face I would think that Musa as a prophet would know that like the Quran says the Angels only do what they're commanded they cannot commit a sin in that sense

so Musa is gonna reject the command of the angel of death and somehow he's gonna overpower him to remain on earth he didn't want to meet Allah I mean this whole thing makes no sense so I said if I have to accept these kind of things well then I'm just gonna reject everything you see because I wasn't aware of a possible other solution which is something that you have presented which is known at you've turned it as hadith absolutism you see we have we have what's called the hadith absolutist the ones who say that we have to believe

in every single hadith in Bukhari and Muslim and on the other hand we have the Quran only is to say we have to reject every single hadith in them you have presented an alternative which is what you have described is hadith relativism which means we judge each single hadith on its own merits merits based on certain principles that you've outline and first starting obviously that it can't contradict the Quran so when I came across this and said wow this this is a something that I can deal with that

makes more sense so yeah I see that these are the three options that were left with and my contention is that both extremes of the absolutism accepting all of them or rejecting all of them are are just as problematic as each other and it's this middle ground that we have to take in in this discussion right okay I mean that because right this is very I mean this is quite it's very interesting for me because like I said I didn't I was understand thing that this whole thing is to do

with epistemology man it's not to do with the constant the ontological nature of revelation then can why he come from other than Allah I I would say but that obviously the scholars have discussed this and they have disagreed but the Maliki method is amongst those very clear on saying that the Prophet also legislates but I suppose they wouldn't take do they take scholars as as authoritative within the within the

whole tradition but let me just clarify clarify as a side point I'm not saying and as you're saying that the messenger could be an independent legislator apart from Allah that's what you're saying I'm trying to have a more modest claim to show them that what they're saying is incorrect what I'm saying is that the source of the why is still from a law but it is something that is not caught on and maybe when I give examples of that from the put on itself that will

make more sense to just clearly explain what phenomenon I'm actually describing okay so if we take and we can do that now if we take a look at chapter 2 verses 143 and 144 in in verse 143 it talks about the messenger himself being on a kid left okay and then it it mentions that there's a shift from whatever that Qibla was because it's not clearly defined in that verse and that's

part of the problem that I'm going to present that whatever that first Qibla was that the messenger was on in verse 143 it shifts to a new table in verse 144 which is clearly identified as al-masjid al-haram hokum shuttle mustard huh right we're talking about just so people know we're talking about the shift of the pitlor in surah Baqarah this is what we're talking about you right so there was a shift from one Qibla in 143 to a new peddler in 144 which is Masjid al-haram the problem is

that in the quran itself and in that verse of chapter of chapter 2 there's 143 there is no description of what that first Qibla actually was there's nothing in the quran that actually tells us and clearly tells us what that first peddler was that the messenger was on now I don't know what your take is on it I have my own take what God is really that's up your take without interesting

go for it say my my answer to what that peddler was to make my point is actually totally irrelevant to my contention against the poor aren't only my point to them is if that they restrict themselves only to the court arm and they say as in 619 that the messenger only received the Quran well the question is how did the messenger himself know what that first pit law was in the first verse if it is not clearly explained in the Quran you see because if he if there was no

command in the Quran for him to follow that first pit law and it wasn't clearly identified to him what that was then how in the world did he know what it was and why was he following something if he himself was to be restricted to only the Quran my answer to that is that he received revelation apart from the foot on that clear made that clear to him you know other real City before we get to that just many of our viewers may be thinking as well you know the kind of verses like LOD can Allah confused on

like swattin husana that you have a great example in the Prophet all walmart out Suzu and what the messenger gives you them take it how can all the verses like Abdullah what your assault because in how do they explain these things that obey Allah and obey His Messenger because if it is the same thing then yeah well they have an answer to all of those things you know there's that verse what I'm trying to think of what the verse is there's the verse that says obey Allah and obey the messenger and obey the the authorities and what women

what women come right right now they say that the scholars and they used a tradition against the Sunnis in this case they say that the the command to obey is not present in front of of the the authorities amongst you in that third part of this statement so they say based on the TAF seers that you can look at they say because it's conditional upon the previous two things that maketh or ities are obeying now so they take that principle actually fit that principle is also set by Sunni scholars

like we because the verses that Allah willing Amram income and those of authority for in esta left them if you disagree follow allah also then go back to allah his messenger right right and i'm saying that they take that understanding from the sunnis and they bring it to another verse that says obey Allah and obey the messenger now there's many verses that use both obey in front of Allah and the messenger but there are some verses that don't have obey in

front of the messenger it says obey Allah and the messenger so they say because you they take that principle from the other verse and import it to that one and say therefore obeying the messenger is conditional upon him obeying the law you see and because they were so what they what they saying is that so if I understood correctly the argument is that when it says I'll do lava at the rasool' or a duel of water so let's say yes saying in essence that obey Allah

and the teachings of Allah as expressed by the Prophet o beta which is basically just realizing the first point in obey God is this what we're saying right exactly it's basically a way of repeating themselves yeah also another way that they try to explain it is they say did this command was this command to obey Allah and obey the messenger did Muhammad himself have to obey that command fascinating

philosophical thought what they would say is does the messenger himself have that have to obey that their way is the answer in the affirmative yes that he does now we're saying well then does he just obey himself no they say in that case the messenger refre refers to Jabril you say because they it is

mentioned in the Quran that Jabril is the one who brings that up put on to the mouth of the Prophet Rasul is gibreel so RT o Rasul for the Prophet is obey jibreel is as a messenger in the Quran that that wording is used so that's their way of getting around it now of course from our perspective we don't understand the verse that way but

because of their gymnastics around this verse and other ones I feel that my approach in the argument that I'm going to present is much more forceful because it attacks the very thing that is holding their whole put on only thing together and that is that the messenger only received a Quran and that he did not receive anything else so I mean by this understanding and guys sugar and much love for your support in super chat Ori and there was Elijah before as well shukran and we will come to later on some will take questions as

well but just after this discussion has unfolded right so just to be clear here that are they saying and many Sunnis say this as well but I mean I personally don't adhere to this but people do say are they saying that the Sharia itself these are comets these Commandments were they are the ultimate divine thing because to say well the Prophet can't add to the legislation and keeps these legislations a whole new level and a whole new aura because it's saying well even the Prophet contacted them they

like so but then each prophet has had different Commandments so I don't you give this example when you speak about I think it's in Bukhari gate what I want to say now is that there's a different position that is held by some Sunnis that I think is equally as absurd and now explain what that is that is the idea that because you framed it in hadith absolutism versus hadith relativism I've put it in other terms I've taken it a step back okay and that

is why absolutism or ye relativism and what do I mean by that that's because you have a serpent and I don't know how much of the scholars have said this but I know that it exists in some tough seers is that on I think it's in chapter 53 verses 2 to 4 it mentions I wish my mind worked like that like when you say a chapter I would be like I mean I am watching that TV series right now called humans with his since they kind of robot but yeah so what is he saying with yes and I'm trying to figure

it out says that it is nothing but a revelation that is revealed and they take the it to refer to the messenger speech so they say that anything that he said old ones my love you you ha right in way they interpret this verse to say they're on the total opposite side of the spectrum the core honest are saying the only why he that the messenger received was the court on these guys are saying no he received that not only did he receive to put on but every single thing that he said and did was why he from Allah this

is now some dogmatic kind of some needs that say this isn't yes yes some scholars have said this I'm saying that both positions are equally as absurd why because when you when you see that there's several examples and I started giving the first one in the court on that there's things that the messenger could not have known unless Allah told him himself besides the Quran so there's there's mentions of for example the first Qibla how did he know what it was how did he

know how to follow it and so on now with the people who are saying it'll just likewise the people who are saying that every single every single thing that the messenger said and did was why he from Allah it makes no sense in light of certain Quranic ayat and also hadith even you have given in the past the hadith that speaks about when the messenger and the Companions were in a particular battle I think it was the Battle of bed there correct me if I'm wrong yeah and they were trying to strategize look where are we going to set up camp and the profit came out with some kind

of plan and one of the companion said to him well you know what a rule of law is this why he is this revelation and he said no and he said okay and then he went on to try to say look here's maybe a better way that we can we can do this right so what does that tell you one thing it tells you that the companion and this is using the hadith but I'm showing it to correct the the people who believe in hadith not to quote honest it shows you that the companion recognized that there was an authority with the messenger outside of the court on because notice he didn't say is this

court on he said is this revelation you see so he assumed that there could be revelation besides the Quran but he also rightly assumed that not every single thing was revelation from Allah you see the distinction now we also have likewise in the court on several times where the Prophet himself was corrected in chapter nine verse 43 it is mentioned that the Prophet gave permission to a group of people to remain in hind remain behind in battle and it says he it says

Allah pardoned you for doing this and he says why did you do this when you didn't know who were the truthful from who were the liars you weren't able to distinguish that you gave premature permission to people to remain behind in battle when you shouldn't have so the question is if and and there's several other examples of this you know when he founds and walks away from the blind man several examples of this in the put on that people know if every single thing was walking from Allah then why would there be these we're not saying sins but

these mistakes that the messenger made in the Quran that would it make sense that would be like saying well Allah you told me to give permission then I did and now you're questioning me about why he gave permission it would just be totally absurd why would he be you know being chided for doing something if this was why it wouldn't make any sense so do you get the angle that I'm coming up here mm-hmm no I do too out of curiosity just so we don't miss it out as well you know you mentioned your point you had a different point on the first good luck what was

what was that just so I know we but we'll come back to this just as a side note I didn't want to mm-hmm I'm still lose track of that yeah I'm still doing research on what exactly the first peddler was maybe you can offer your perspective but what what I what I think that it is is let me just go to the verse because it sheds some light on it in the second verse and that's to 143 and 144 in the second verse and I'm just reading out of the English translation

because that's what I have in front of me it says Qibla restored to Mecca this is we have seen you turning your face about the sky searching for the right direction we now assign a pillar that is pleasing to you henceforth you shall turn your face towards the sacred Masjid and you know and this might be a little just a virtual a side note just sorry not you take just the view is just to ensure that you see for some reason the the Facebook thing seems to have disappeared from in front of me but I can still see the comments moving so if

you're having an issue with you if the Facebook viewers are can't see it or anything let me know and what I'll do is I'll have to just refresh the entire thing but I can see the comments are still moving but the Facebook page seems to have disappeared he referred to me so I don't know what's with that but yeah carry on sorry Jake yeah so so in that verse and this may be a little bit controversial from a sunny perspective but when when you talked about Masjid al-aqsa is mentioned in the Quran and the the Shia perspective is that they believe it was somewhere in the

heavens then yes above now this verse to me gives me that impression why because it says we have seen you turning your face about the sky now we are turning you to a qibla al-masjid al-haram so this is my understanding right now that the messenger was his high blow was towards the sky and and and that's what it's referring to and Allah then positioned him towards the Kaaba so like I said I have to do more research on but just huge just to kind of when you say two words the sky

you mean what they would pray so like what do we mean the Qibla was towards the sky just - yeah well here's the problem because the traditional narrative as far as I can tell is that it was referring to the the mosque in Jerusalem is that correct I mean how do you understand it but so I guess oh you're right I feel that the you see there's two things going on here there's

one the discussion of what is the robe on Mirage okay so there's that discussion and then there's the discussion of the Tingler now I don't necessarily put them but I keep them separate so to me the Masjid al-aqsa which is being mentioned in the Quran about Allah saying that all we took the Prophet to the Masjid al-aqsa the most farthest point of a Masjid of a place of sujood the other thing is at that I don't consider that word Masjid to mean

Masjid like a building but rather because in that early stage in Mecca Masjid the concept of a must-read didn't exist because they weren't almost genes you know but even substitute even worse we know that the Masjid in Jerusalem didn't exactly we didn't so to me Masjid al-aqsa is some of the the point of sujood in the farthest part of the vision the Prophet had which was in the other day I mentioned some way he wasn't talking about this world and he definitely wasn't talking about recently

so that's in my understanding that Jerusalem was not at all but put that on one side the discussion of the tibula I feel saying I'm saying I feel that it's related okay I've seen in in the sense that in in this verse when it's mentioning the qibla that he was originally on it's telling him to now turn towards al-masjid-al-haram and like I said I have to do meat more research on it yeah but I know that that first peddler could not have been Jerusalem because of that Masjid was not there and

even as you're saying the concept of a physical Masjid in that sense was not present at that time yeah so it can't be that and it's not even just the that it's not just a physical must change the institution of a Masjid did not exist so when a why saying machine al Haram and harem at that time was a pagan territory it was not a Masjid and it was just what it means is a sacred spot that way people kind of devote themselves in

worship so it's it's not just the building but it's also the concept of a Masjid when we think of a mosque today we think of a building in which we offer five prayers in which this concept did not exist as a mosque ATM right yeah but I would I would say that it there is a verse it's in chapter 22 somewhere I think I don't have that one off the top of my head but there is a verse in English it says that if a law were not to check some people by other people

yeah these people would have destroyed Church in us about the facility salamé police monasteries and churches word the word Masjid I believe is used in that verse so that tells us that in in the one sense I'm agreeing with you but on the other hand this verse is giving the indication that no mastered is being put in the same category as these physical buildings that people went to go and worship that see what I'm saying actually right that's a good point

well that's actually a very good point but what I would say to that is in that sense Masjid you're right but it would not be it would it would it doesn't necessarily go against my point because it wouldn't mean Masjid in the institutionalized sense of money today it would mean like the word in English like temple yeah works I mean if we said a place that people consider sacred and we they would kind of you know they would devote they kind of worship or whatever it is to God just all gods or pagans because Masjid al-haram was a

pagan site so even though it is called Masjid al-haram in in the quran at that time but it was not referring to a masjid as we understand dude yeah even the word sujood itself in the court on it it mentions that everything that exists makes a jewel to Allah says that the birds do everything does so we know in that even the shadows so we know that the word can have a more but somebody might say with all this stuff of what are you trying to prove with all of

these with the Masjid what's the people say what's the point with all these yeah the point is that the question for the and and see I'm a philosopher which we didn't you should have introduced this up let's reintroduce Jake okay University and see the way that I construct all of my arguments I tried to format them into deductive arguments why

because they're much clearer and easier for people to understand so this is my argument based on what we're just talking about with this peddler it would be like this premise one if the messenger received why he apart from the court arm then the court on only position is false premise two the messenger did receive wha he apart from the foot on therefore the Quran only position is false now I obviously need to provide evidence to prove that first of all why would the court on only position be false if the messenger

received why he apart from the put on it would be because as I clearly quoted for them that's what their whole foundation is built on that the messenger only received the Quran so if I can prove couldn't Dave could they say that the Prophet received some kinds of revelation that were not that were not verses of the Quran yes but if they said that they would have to reject their fundamental principle from which is built on then the conversation would shift rather from an ontological perspective of rejection to an epistemological where then they would

have to say yes he did receive these other things but we can't trust the vehicle and now that shifts to a different conversation now see I'm attacking the ontological grounds that they're standing on first I see I see no no go for it attack away Italian stallion yes so I'm saying that if I prove he received something else besides the court all now they have to get away from hiding behind this ontological argument and then we could have a discussion about the reliability of the of the Sun not being transmitted to us

okay I feel that that's a secondary issue because what's really at stake is the first part and so what I'm trying to show with chapter 2 verse 143 is not that oh I'm Jake I have I'm a genius I know right Jake the genius necessarily and this is what it is and I have all the proof no it's not about that it's putting the question to them to say if the messenger only received the Quran then how did he know what the Qibla was because in that verse itself and in the

entire Quran nowhere does explain just to be for our viewers because some of them have asked in the question Jake is a Sunni he is a mainstream Muslim coming from the Sunni position this is although he spent many years or honest only I think some people are getting confused they're thinking you're trying to argue the Quran his position you're actually trying to debunk he's trying to debunk the puranas position so you're sorry for interrupting you you have carry on yeah yeah so as I was saying if the messenger only received the Quran and the question comes where

was the command in the Quran itself for him to follow that first Quibbler forget about what the pitlor was where was he told to follow that first peddler and how in the world did he know what it was if there's no identification of it in the entire Quran what if they say that the Big Love was just arbitrary oh here's a there's a good point see people I'm always making good points I

anticipated and if people enjoy you sent me up I'm just gonna give myself a quick plug here don't hurt my own my own youtube channel which was part of the cry the criterion which I'll include a link in the in the description afterwards in inshallah so I have my own channel the criterion and I haven't been active for some time maybe six months or so but my video that I put out when I made the switch to becoming a traditional son name was on this very topic and it's headlined did the

messenger only receive the Quran or something like that and in that video I explained the various possibilities of how somebody could answer this question and one of them is one that you mentioned and I debunk all of them it's about a thirty minute video so people can go there and check it out but I'll do the best I can here the point is that another thing you have to realize about the Quran only people is they make a distinction between the messenger and the Prophet they say that obedience to the messenger is necessary but not the Prophet because

the Prophet refers to him in his human capacity when he's a messenger he's completely perfect and that they flip that don't they because normal Sunnis tend to say not that this is a doctrinal issue but just I commonly seen scholars say Rasul is the messenger maybe he's the prophet but they professor edict when he was on the show said no we see the other way around we would say nuh B is the messenger and rasool' is a prophet no they would use those terms but they they would refer to them in the opposite sense okay you know in other words the messenger is restricted

to the court on the Prophet is not and they give examples in the Quran where the where the Prophet is corrected like in chapter 66 verse 1 it says o prophet why did you make hut on what Allah has made allowed for you you see so they say that every time he's corrected he's always corrected at with an MB not of a fool so they make that distinction now when you say that it could have been arbitrary this goes against their point that the messenger is perfect why because in chapter 2 verse 140 three the verse that I read it calls him

the messenger I believe let's see one to two times I'm seeing that it calls him the messenger so if it was completely arbitrary then why did Allah call him the messenger because they're saying that Minh his capacity as a messenger was restricted to the Quran not only that a law ports the fact of this peddler let me just read the verse he supports it he says that he's the one who established him a law himself established this Qibla and it was not

arbitrary okay it says we've we Allah thus made you an impartial community that you may serve as witnesses among the people and the messenger serves as a witness amongst you we changed the direction of your original Qibla only to distinguish those among you who readily follow the messenger from those who turn back on their heels it was a difficult test but not for those who are a guard guided by God so in fact Allah is saying that he is the one who made that Qibla

and he says that he made the Qibla at the switch in the change of the Qibla as a test to see who was gonna follow the Rasul from one peddler to the next so this is not arbitrary this is a plan by a law himself and he tells you what his purpose was in doing this so that's not gonna fly in this case hmm okay right you see okay I see you a point because even the Sunni tradition is not to you

know it's not too clear on what was the Qibla before the people that became the Kappa I mean they understand it was because some descriptions say was the camera already some say the Prophet made like the hadith employees be confused it says in the profit he'd kind of it seems to allude that he'd made more ha I'm sorry made the capybara first then Jerusalem then the cat birth in Jerusalem or something there seems to be a lot of shift some suggest that what the Prophet used to do was he would point to Jerusalem but he would have the Kaaba in the middle so he would stand

like if this direction was Jerusalem so the Prophet would stand with the kaepa in front of him in that direction that Jerusalem would be behind the camera so that's one of the the kind of the understandings the Sunni scholars have from that was no it's melted no no of course it's not so the question is then you're back to saying either the messenger himself did this arbitrarily which from my perspective would be wrong for him to do that or was this was he

instructed to do this by Allah Himself now the verse when he real out of curiosity that it would be wrong it would be well not only would it be wrong it doesn't go in line with the verse because the verse suggests that a law himself made this Qibla and he says that we switched from one to the other to distinguish who was going to be falling so are we saying that the messenger was totally unaware of this plan until the verse come down I mean okay but one would assume that these verses about say hakuna so for her that you know mal were

local what turned you away from your Qiblah the foolish people will say is that all right suggests but this was happening in Medina the thirteen years prior to that in Makkah that wasn't really an issue so yeah but those verses that are saying what has turned you away from your clay block now what was that peddler that they're talking about that see what I'm saying now I'm I can go on to give other examples sure but what I'm saying is that you have you have two options right now you're either have to say that it was arbitrary the messenger just made

this up which doesn't seem to be in line with what the verse is saying because Allah saying that he made the Qibla and then says what his purpose was for switching from one to the other so I don't see how that could be a proper test if the messenger just arbitrarily came up with this because then why would they be obligated to follow that I mean it's it doesn't seem to add up okay so I mean in addition to the Qibla yeah are there any other points that you you feel are solid cases against this always the main one no that's one of

them okay but another one is in first actually we can stick on the table for a second with al-masjid-al-haram let's transition from the first tablet to the second one I'm actually okay does the court on itself clearly identify what al-masjid al-haram is if you stuck to a court on only perspective what would you say does it specify what is emotional honk yeah I mean I think is much to do around the camera is this the question just to be

clear just then the question would be if Masjid al-haram is the Kaaba which it is there's a verse that says that I think it's in chapter 5 verse 92 the question would be what is the Kaaba because generally you're right the Quran by its very nature although it addresses matters but they seem to be kind of assumed they seem to be a almost a temporal and a spatial almost like you could just take this verse and fit it somewhere talk hence the the petrel question which has

kind of taken the master question they've managed to you know take the verses of of the emotional heart the fibula I just fit them in Petra so yeah because yeah yeah because there's no verse in the entire court on that makes clear what the location of Masjid al-haram is yeah I'm just bringing them up here as well so yeah yeah I mean I I've done what we would call in the put on only community a test reef which is you take it take to where a certain word in the put on and you look at all the times that excuse

okay so just to be clear the verse that you were speaking about okay I see some are the verses I just want to bring it up because I know we're referring to it quite a bit that we it says little it acutally men men young colleague wala RTB so we did not make the table at which you were upon except that we can use it to know who will follow the Prophet from humans and away from the

heel right okay I see right I see your point I see your point does that you see that verse doesn't sound that sounds like it's it's being done as a test as a kind of but that said that said it could leave space for saying well you see because my understanding my understanding of the people a shoe is that the Prophet was originally pointing towards much the Kaaba in Mecca because that was the holy sanctuary so that is where you would pray however I do feel

in the early modern period the prophet salaallah alayhi wasalam started to align himself in line with judeo-christian traditions to kind of demarcate between the Abrahamic people and the other decree the other became the pagans of Makkah and to create this other nests he aligned himself with so he started to kind of even his hairstyle they mentioned some books that he started to come is here like the people like the Jewish people he started to almost modify his

style his dress he started to so I would feel at this stage him also pointing to Jerusalem but I can by the fact that it was done in a way we he was still pointing at the Kaaba but from the angle that Jerusalem was in that direction behind it was just tube align himself more with the Jewish people but would you would you feel that let's just say for the sake of argument that you're what you've just explained is correct how it actually historically happened would you feel that that was something

arbitrary that the messenger did or that this was plant a part of a plan as the verse to me suggests that a law was had this in mind when he was when he was doing this you see the way I understand things is that there is a kind of a legislative license and that is granted to the prophet but that said Makkah was a period where it was pretty much a blank canvas you know there was they were no outcome of Sharia there was no you know that there was no for the most

part there was no mandatory Salah there was no I mean so these things I feel that there was a lot of creative license there that the Prophet could have but what I'm saying that works under your paradigm well your put your Quran only hat on think about it from their perspective you cannot say that to say because I mean that license thing doesn't work we explain that doesn't work with them so for them to say it's arbitrary is problematic from their own perspective do you see what I mean because they don't think somebody put a

scare that what about more secular things like saying how do you pray Salah and stuff like this is are these not we'll get to that eventually but the point is let's say let's say it was arbitrary let's say the messenger came up with this because he wanted to connect ties with the Jews and so on let's say this is the case could the court on onliest accept that framework no they couldn't use it because they're restricting their saying that they're saying we only follow the con why because the messenger only followed the

court on so this narrative is not consistent with that because you're saying that he arbitrarily came up with this or maybe not completely arbitrary it was by some wisdom that he wanted to connect ties with the Jews but anyway that's not in the court on it's not it's not a strict following of the court on itself so either way you take it the whole point is that whatever he did in following that first pit law it's not mentioned in the Quran so I thought was from a law or was arbitrary from himself but either route you take it's a problem from their perspective do you feel

though worldwide I don't know if you know if this is something you've been for me do you feel the Quran movement is like this worldwide or I would have felt that the people maybe the majority of people who inclined to are honest only they just caught up on an epistemological angle of trying to say no we can't prove a deed so you know check them away no not at all what they

actually will do they might hide it under the guise of an epistemological problem but really the problem is the ontology and the only way you can really see this is you get a qur'an only person who said listen if you were in front of the Prophet himself and he gave you a command and it wasn't from the court on you asked him just as that companion did when they were setting up and he said is this is this revelation and he said no would you then this was the court on in their case would you accept his command they will tell you no

I know firsthand from Edom yüksel and from Tom's Abdul Malik who was I studied with for like five years that their position is not their position is in I'll give you another verse maybe make it clearer in chapter 6 verse 106 let's see it says follow what is revealed to you from your Lord there is no God except he and disregard the idol worshippers they link this verse to the previous one that I mentioned 619

and they say there's two things follow what is revealed to you from your Lord the question is what is revealed to you from there your Lord they use 619 to restrict that and say only the Quran was revealed to the messenger there is no God except he and disregard the mushrikeen so they say if you don't fall in line with those two Commandments as they understand it you are of the mushrikeen yeah and I have I mean I can read if no longer yeah I mean yeah I have okay I have a quote here from Homs

Abdul Malik himself where he has a video on YouTube called source of guidance he taught they frequently talk about what is the source of guidance their source of guidance is the court on not the messenger the messenger is only the mailman or the vehicle that presents this is really this is really kind of a revelatory to me I know now that you see

see I you see because I definitely hear now that you say this I do see this in the way people speak about the profit certain academics and things like this but to me that kind of an Islam obviously it's it's qualitatively different because to me the Sharia is not you see what I have argued in fact I've got a video called the Sharia Sharia the kintsugi hypothesis in which I argue that the Sharia itself is not

sacred in Islam it's only the vehicle in which it's come like because it's been revealed while the Quran that is holy and and sacred but the the rulings per se or just they just reflect the norms of that society they weren't something which so when a whining mentions Oh cut the hand of the thief this was just something the Arabs were doing anyway it wasn't something which came as a you know this was since time immemorial God had this planned that when seventh century comes I want you to start chopping hands it doesn't so to me the

Sharia is and I give the kinsuka a hypothesis of the the Japanese art way they take broke broken pottery but they majestically bring it together with a kind of golden weaving up to fix it and what the Sharia is doing is taking a broken human society but kind of fixing it so it is a very it is a social solution it is our solutions to problems that we have to our own problems it's not so in that sense this tool of doing

that is then inherited in through the Sharia by its scholars to do the same so I suppose my you know my understanding of Islam obviously oceans apart from that understanding and saying no that whatever just came but then you know I want to ask a question are they yes in right earnest man Jake take a teacher so do they say things like cut chop you know like chopping the hand off the thief is still equally valid today oh

man yeah so they are very literalistic in interpreting the foot on and this is another problem I mean we could talk about but since they since they only have recourse to the Quran they really don't have any rule or principles or thing a clear system for how they interpret the Quranic text you see because we have these things through the tradition you see they don't have any I mean if if they don't have a recourse to

things outside of the foot on how do they even understand the Arabic in the Quran itself how do they know for example certain words that are only mentioned one time in the Quran because they'll they'll say things like this like when you had eat it on he told you when you talked about the hitting verse right and he said the word data is used many different ways in the Quran which is true so you have a wide you have a wide range where you can look at it and then based on the context interpret it a certain way but what about the words that Arabic words that are only used one time in the court on how do you know

what they mean you don't have a hitting verse the chopping of the hands first he interprets that if I recall correctly because I did look at his read his error you know the introduction in his Quran of Syria and it mentions errors in translation so the means so to prevent the means of so not to cut the physical hand but this is allegorical usage of

the language if professor EDA is watching this then you know Jake was you know you better watch out Jake yeah so the hitting verse is in Chapter five yep chapter five verse 30 it says another I'm reading from Professor Edith's translation just giving them a shout out

because I'm gonna show you what happens here in chapter 5 verse 38 he says penalty for the thieves the male thief and the female thief you shall mark cut or cut off their hands slash meat slash means as a punishment for their crime and to serve as a deterrent from God God is noble wise so notice that he puts hands and he puts a - means in the translation now look at this if you want to go by their principle of of looking at how a word is used in the court on

why not just go five verses before that move T in Chapter five let's do it five verses before he has a different subheading what does it say live by the sword die by the sword now what is this verse a it says the recompense for those who fight God and His Messenger and seek to corrupt the land is that they will be killed o or crucified or that their hands and

feet be cut off on alternative sides and then he puts or that they be banished from the land that is a disgrace from this them in this world in in the hereafter they will have a Greek retribution so this is in the context of now when five verses later the punishment for the thief comes up and this can clearly not be interpreted in the way look easy what's the ink interpretation for lashing let's get off let's get the other folk involved with their keen interests

what slashing I mean in the in the same translation for you know surah Noor for latch the fornicate what's the what are they transit is that literal they say lashing or they say yeah they would say it's literal lashing but that it they reject the idea of stoning of course but what they today say we should still lash people I think so yes okay that would be interesting to know what this verse is that you can't interpret it in the way that he interpreted it five verses later

why because the context is clear it says killed crucified or that there that's a very good point to have be cut off on alternative sides so now I'm saying why are you translating it this way five verses later the word is used in the exact same way in the Arabic and now you want to translate it as something else there's no system Jake what's this thing about the number nineteen months this is on everybody's mind here they've is it did you see any mystery in the number nineteen did you see the sign of the

divine or did you what's going on what did you just see as but then you saw down I need to eat take those mushrooms again this business of the nineteen again you know with no disrespective professor Edith yeah taking things Paul yeah I'd be happy to discuss that with

him and I have his book here yeah nineteen whoa God signature in nature in Scripture so I've read this whole five hundred or whatever pain oh yeah I might take you to any month are you going to read things like that you think that you are gonna deal with the Jersey boy talk to us about 19 month

apart from it is that the age of the hoodies in German are we gonna have 19 year old Juliette in Germany professor Edith explained was supposedly discovered by Raja Khalifa in 1974 yeah I'm just gonna try to keep this as simple as possible no for 19 year olds can understand what you're saying

basically you actually mentioned briefly in your discussion that they reject chapter 9 verses 1 28 and 29 the final two verses and they're get this look at the hypocrisy I'm sorry to say now their justification for rejecting these verses is first why because they say that these two verses were the only two verses that

had one witness for them in the entire Quran but it's about talk to us through some hadith did you just know what's the time we're starting to think of like it's good right - thinking is thinking so this is clear hypocrisy you're using a hadith to justify rejecting a verse in the Quran when in fact you've been trying to tell us all along it's the

opposite we should be using caught on to reject hadith I mean it's just absurd the second thing that they try to do is they say that because the messenger is called Rahim in one of these verses this is an attribute that is to be for God only yeah I found that part very confusing actually because we might dialogue with Professor Edith he said that look this attribute is exclusive to God but obviously the purpose of my show is not to start arguing with people it's to allow me

hope you of course of course we will not much to argue over anyway I mean Wells that don't know Jake is a Maliki as well he's rockin Massa you know so but III wonder kind of especially where people have very different ideas and want them to express their ideas but when he said about Rahim is restricted for God but then I was going to say that look but what about things like Karim which is all Aziz you know like Aziz of Missa when in the Quran that he says and you know always sarcastically when Allah is

saying in the Quran look in the can tell as ezel carrying you know taking this punishment and you thee as ezel kidding and I find a very weak point to say nobody could be called compassionate or generous or whatever just because God is known as generous but yeah what is your comeback on this Jake what's your what was the killer move that the wrestler jake the snake' used to have back in the days it was the DDT used to go what's

your DDT on this man justification by using hadith this complete hypocrisy and secondly with this Rahim business is in chapter 48 verse 29 in and I'm reading from am i reading okay let me bring up let me bring up EDA Bewkes of translation I don't want him to feel like I'm leaving him out here you know if I'm gonna refute him I might as well do it with himself this is this is not by the way of a refutation of Professor

Eevee why not that's not the purpose of this but seems to be no in honesty I'm using his translation because we're talking about nine you know you know he personally don't you in chapter 48 verse 29 in his translation he says Muhammad The Messenger of God and those who are with him are severe against the ingrates

but merciful between themselves so now the same word merciful bahamas not all is not only being applied to the messenger it's being applied to the collective the Companions as well because with him are severe against the ingrates but merciful between themselves so now we have to say I'm sorry brother eat it you got to go here and and look it's amazing it's the last verse I mean this looks like I mean also words like ulema in the horn in my F Solomon hybrid

animal which is pure love Ali but unless they are to say that all of mine is not that unless the only argument I'm thinking might be to say that well this plural father is not from file it's from file or something else which is hey it isn't the systematic grammatical thing we're taught in Arabic grammar but just think I'm just saying that in this case in chapter 9 whatever it was verse 128 it's saying that the messenger is merciful to the believers in this one it's repeating the same thing but now

including the others and saying they're merciful to me for this is a very this is a very weak government anyway this argument that you know that we can't have any kind of adjectives of compassion or things like I feel that anybody that you present that argument you won't really buy anyway it's a very weak oh well I feel of course that was good thinking though because the verses that came to my mind but I didn't think of these for somebody's you're doing it mind your own point you're like you're

kind of like you've gotta use the word that they're actually using to put more emphasis on likewise is there anything on this nineteen that because that's a really big thing that they've got is there anything from the top of your head coming straight about nineteen that you like you're like listen to this get this yeah they say and let me let me read for you why I'm bringing it up these two verses because this is Rishabh the

leafless translation you see academic and reach try that straight out of the book here for you guys let me read for you what what Lisa said about these the importance of rejecting these two verses look what he says in the foot night notes he first of all he doesn't even include these verses in the translation he puts a footnote and puts nine 128 and 129 he said it demonstrates one of the functions of God's mathematical code in the Quran namely to guard the Quran against any alteration it provides

additional miraculous features of the codons code due to their extraordinary importance the details are given in appendices 24 and 29 now quote and watch this he says one immediate observation is that the number of occurrences of the word God at the end of surah 9 is 1273 19 times 67 but if you included this verse a laws name is mentioned one time there it would throw off the count so here's what he says if this is conditional

if the to false verses 128 and 129 are included this phenomenon and many more will vanish so they have to from the from the discovery Discoverer himself admits that if we include these two verses the entire system of 19 is thrown out of the water you see it becomes because now the the very mention of a laws name is not a multiple of 19 no no to be fair I had heard that the reason

they rejected those verses I had read that that it wasn't actually to do with Rahimi mentioned it was more to do with the calculations would then come out for 19 yes they couldn't use that as a justification because that would be a circular argument they try to use they try to use hadith and then they try to use Rahim which is just bogus I mean it's it's a nonsense but anyway leaving that aside yet the concept of 19 in general is completely arbitrary why do I say that first of all if you study mathematics

you will you will understand anybody knows who basically you have a numerator and a denominator if I'm if somebody who's a skeptic and they're saying hey Rashad or Edith tell me about this 19 somebody's gonna want to know what are the total possible scenarios in which 19 could be applied in the court on again how many times does it actually occur in the court on and then look at that probability and say wow that's like 65% that is way above just making it by chance okay now this is very

what you're saying now yeah absolutely yeah however we don't have that if you ask a Dubuque so that question he cannot answer why because he doesn't actually have a set criteria for looking at how we determine whether or not something comes to 19 whether or not happen it's even worthy of our investigation he cherry picks things like 19 or 18 different attributes why not this other attribute of God why not this other word usage in the Quran so the whole thing is one of the number 40 for example that's

mentioned in the Quran as well right but even if even if you take the number 19 yeah why are we only looking at and for example even with the word Allah it's interesting that they don't include they include a law and they include certain other derivatives of a laws name but they do not include allahumma when it comes to allahumma they do not include those and it's mentioned I believe two or four times something like that but whatever it is it throws off the count but yet there's other derivatives of a laws main that they do include so what's

the justification for including this set but not Allah Allah and they have no answer it's all just number games that they're playing and you will begin to see this more and more when you study for example indeed up UCLES 19 book he shows many different we will be prepared Jake this is like brings up many different ways that you can arrive at 19 for example he simply takes the number

of Flores 114 divided by 19 it's a multiple of 19 he takes certain words and says you divide it by 19 and it comes out how does that happen with a prime number it's more see to be fit I've said to my opinion on these has been and I said it to Professor and I said to other people is that they maybe I feel that there may be some kind of some mystery about the number 19 in the cosmos that from a mathematical

perspective they may be and we may have you know within our comfortable subconsciously that we these things resin not just the number 19 other numbers as well then may be and therefore it manifests itself through our words through our expression it may be like in poetry why did in English for example they select the pentameter why the fine you know like what is it like heavy lies the head that wears the crown that why in that pattern why in Arabic have they got these behold on these

particular numbers I leptin leptin a Latin why like that it may be because we do as human beings resonate with certain patterns which ultimately can be reduced to numbers but that may just be a result of our evolutionary past or it may be a result there may be other things I was so I was I was not trying to throw the number 19 out of the you know window together but I was just saying that the way it's being presented is just like it's just seems like this is way too much like you know if you divide this by 19 if you add one here I if you list all

the swirls 1 2 3 4 5 114 and each one you add these 519 and you divide it by 90 come on this is this is just way too much more for normal people to appreciate well it's my main contention is that there's no consistent methodology for your writing 19 for example I have here on the hundred page 158 of his book he lists that the laws mentioned is 2698 x that's 19 x 142 he mentions that rahman is mentioned 57 times as my

eighteen times three Rahim is mentioned 19 times 6 that's 114 that's great but why not the other attributes what is special about certain attributes rather than others why do you just take oh you show that Oh Rahim is mentioned in a derivative of 19 but why not I mean Oh bossy Oh Jake shall we take some questions people are guys if you've

got some questions I know quite a few have been throwing up questions all the way through in the charts and but they may have scrolled quite a bit up so if you've got some questions I'll present them to our esteemed guest tonight the Honorable Jake Jake a lot of people including you know certain family members can't even pronounce my name correctly

seriously Jake my family my dad Saad is from Italy his parents are straight off the boat from house a Jeff they can't say Jake they say Jack and and I feel that that happens with Arabic speaking people as well so yeah so all right people let's take some questions

somebody had asked here that what about some gerron's quran centric Jusuf is studious and thorough okay question funny but what about some Gerrans general Garren's is jeremy I'm not sure but either way I would say that I'm not impressed okay he has his own translation of the Quran and he's very much first of all Mufti with all respect I mean you mentioned it in your last video about the Flat Earth what do you think about people who believe in the Flat Earth I actually

think it's it's as dumb as it gets in from the Flat Earth conspiracy okay you know for the record I've messaged some Germans right so I messaged him I introduced myself and I said that look at like to get you one because people have after having professor a tip on here quite a few people message saying why don't you get a different granny's perspective from somebody like some

Germans so I've never I don't know he was so I googled him and I saw his website and I found him on I think I think Instagram and I messaged him so he did say to me he's gonna check out my channel he's gonna check stuff out and then he'll let me know but yes okay so he's a flat is a flat earther knows very much of the conspiratorial type of mindset he also believes in a sort of global elite ISM that the elites are against us and trying to keep us all down and me personally and I don't take you as that kind of person either I'm

not much into conspiracy so even when I was into the quarter on only stuff I was never really into his material yeah so okay so okay that's that speaks volumes somebody has asked what do you think of doctor shall be the Ali's presentation of number 19 now I will just say before just letting you take that away I will just say I have message doctor shall be Riley I did ask him this was recently that do you because I saw some videos of him with the number 19 on YouTube I didn't ask him so I messaged him

in the last week's few weeks saying that chef do you out of curiosity is this something you're still very passionate about the video is a good few years old so it could be that you've moved on he did say to me in his response but I don't wanna I'm just summing it up so I could be you know he wasn't his exact words but he said that he is still with it but it's not I got the impression he's not with it the way like professor a tip is with it but he does see some wonder to it and he said he would be happy to discuss it on my show in you know as he frees up from his preoccupations but yet take it away

yeah I've seen his presentation on it also I don't know if you know but I can indeed that back-in-the-day he's one of the first people that supported the so-called miracle of 19 and I think dr. shibir picked it up from there somewhere along the way and yeah what I would say is I would offer the same criticisms that I just did about 19 to dr.

shibir and I'd like to hear his responses to those things I've never communicated with him on it so I don't know how he would answer those things I mean this is just an assumption on my part but I would assume that dr. Shabbir Ali would be more kind of like balanced towards this whole topic like he would I don't think to him it's I'm assuming by his how I've known him has a very kind of like a reason based person not so caught up in Dogma but I mean somebody's asked a question here that what is your our

rights moving it Joseph aka Quran centric somebody asked what is my what is my opinion on him yes so what do you think yeah okay yeah so he's also popular let me tell you something this guy I have communications with him because he's out in California when I started speaking to this guy I haven't straightened him out on a few things actually a perfect time to

introduce this topic broadly speaking in the court on only movement you have two broad camps that I've classified as you have the ritualists and the non-virtue lists the ritualists are the ones who believe in salah hajj CM and in the same sort of traditional understanding as a sunni would you have the non Ritualist camp who says no all of those things are not what you think they mean so law is not actually a ritual prayer cm is not it's more like a state of mind or something yeah and did you see one you

had the discussion with Professor edith he insinuated that but he said that's the bigger picture of what it's mainly about but he said there is this ritualistic aspect of Salah they go a step further to say that's the only aspect there is no ritualistic aspect whatsoever you see so there's a split in the soul so this joseph quran centric person he's sweet nam Ritualist easy yes okay okay I used to be an EDA puke so scammed then here's what their main

problem is Mufti they believed that the Quran is fully detailed that it is yeah it's fully detailed so the conundrum that they're in is if it's fully detailed which you hinted at before where are the details for these rituals in the Quran they are not there there are some minor details but all details from A to Z are not there we know them so because of that they only have two options they either have to reinterpret those words radically to mean something else to get rid of the rituals more they have to do what either

puke so tries to do and that is to Cobb up some minor details in the Cortana and say here's this so long but then if you poke and prod you say ask one simple question where is where does the court on tell you how to begin the prayer to raise your hands and say Allahu Akbar it's not there where does the Quran tell you how to end the prayer it's not there in fact Edith mutual uses a verse in chapter 10 verse 10 to justify how he ends the prayer which is I believe let me just read it out here I believe it's you've been you've been

stalking you know everything that he says and I just justify to the people as well that this is not that's actually the reason behind this passion that Jake is coming forth with that he when he embarked into Islam when he became Muslim this is all he knew for the majority of his life as a Muslim that's why you know you feel this there's this passion to kind of get it because some people may be thinking you know you know what's going on here why are you constantly so that there's a huge

there's a backdrop to them yeah and I'm trying I'm trying to meet I'm trying to match professor a tips intensity it says their prayer in it is glory be to our God and their greeting in it is peace and the end of their prayer is praise be to God the Lord of

the world in the ulema costea you got confused because why o the word that he's translating as prayer is you are not so much salat to whom in the base all know this is a different verse oh right okay the point that I was gonna make is he's grasping there's a reason why though

confused he's using this bird to say that this is how we end the Salah but the word Salah is not even in the verse and so how he ends his prayer is by saying praise be to God the Lord of the Worlds and handling that he'll be lying to me but this is totally different and in fact the words the law is not in the verse so my point is that when you go down the route of saying that the law is actually a ritual prayer or at least in certain aspect of it is ritualistic then

you have the burden from a Quran only perspective of showing all the details of your prayer in the Quran and you can't do so so you wind up with these kind of problems now in regards to Joseph's bring it back to the question when I first met Joseph online he was of this mindset and I showed him the problem I said look bro if you want to be caught on only and you say it's fully detailed where are the details for the prayer that you're doing he eventually said well I can't find him so he switched his position to a non ritualistic camp and now he's in that now the refutation of these people is

that with eat which eat up said and I can give several verses that clearly show that at least some aspects of Salah are ritualistic that some aspects of Hajj are ritualistic cm and so on so their problem is that they have to radically reinterpret these terms that things become unknowable in a sense because for example I have one person who I'm discussing this Masjid al-haram stuff with I asked him what is Masjid al-haram and this is going back to our point from a purely Quranic perspective unless you resort to something outside

you can't answer that question if there's no details as to what it is so no and I'm saying that's what you get for showboating of the that's what I get this is the story of my life right so all my days can you do show the salaah you just want it to be something more than it is you think about I don't know I think that's just a statement not a question yes Simo is it similar or scientist Simon but with Annie Simone I think Simone is very passion has been writing a lot I take it coming from the I think the poor honest I

think you've yep you're gonna get some some stalkers after this as well I'll just send them your way they're always welcome here anybody can join this Caravan most eg Walker one well we're taking Q&A that's what's going down lasagna is great Alex Alex you do in it he said he's also he recognized the name was Italian said that earlier on and Fred shukran shukran for your support you're doing it right Jake all their diverse views of profits rolled status

in Quran only movements okay yeah there are there is a difference of opinion what I want to say is some people may come come from the angle of what you're saying in a piston illogical sense not in the full-on sense that they believe that the messenger himself was an independent legislator but they would say like Eden yüksel would say because he was a leader and a sort of ruler at that time that if he were to give a command in battle or a general command

to the people that would be adhere to but it would have a qualitative difference between that and an actual Dini matter so they would just say it's kind of like an and it's it's just basically the Prophet being a person and telling somebody it's not religious kind of right was the profit itself what they wouldn't view it in the same way that it was the cop I see I see okay right cool what's going on what's going on Claire said she's and also that's Simone it must be a she then I was

thinking is it Simon OC Shh is it Simone but all right so we've got some Lucas okay everybody's welcome people everybody's welcome madam kore honest is offensive not nausea not honest is offensive as it's a sick name Sony's give to those who read the Quran on its own we are Muslim simple sure look my I said I said - I said - professor a tip as well when you we were discussing on my shoulder look at the end of the day

it's not I don't feel in Islam God has truly given us Muslims the right or the the kind of license to say who is not Muslim and who is that we do this as same like we not meet but I'm saying we as as Muslims do this but I think it's not really something that Islam came about I would say that look this is my understanding I can define that look this is what mainstream or this is what generally for the most part Muslims believe somebody could come along and say I don't believe that fine I mean to me I'm not gonna I know I'm not gonna

call that person a Coffield I'm just gonna say well okay this person believes this but for the sake of discussion here we are using labels and say you have a she a person is saying this a Sunni a humbly a Maliki at the Obon Salafi it's not about sectarianism I'm against sectarianism it's just for the sake of dialogue that's all to make it clear who exactly in any pejorative way nausea nausea says Jake Jake is a hypocrite yeah do you know that you

come on now yeah why don't you like Jake look come on he's a likable guy mine since send some of those cute emojis on here come on spread the love what I would say in response to that with all respect as I said in the beginning of the conversation it's presented as if to put honest sorr sorry Muslims are and but referring to the people he referred adhere to the Quran only as slowly like you wouldn't get there calling everybody else in the

tradition most routine yeah so you know it's a little bit offensive to me to sit up here and say well you called me a quitter honest when you're calling me a mushrik for god's you know i see see this is it runs deep people it runs deep so someone guys your questions feel free to to post a can of course you know how we distinguished between the ontological versus epistemological rejection the

other angle that I would criticize the people who follow only the Quran would be from a historical perspective are you aware of any groups in the past that rejected the notion of the Sunnah from an ontological perspective now I know that there have been some that took an epistemological twist on it that said maybe hey there's some doubt in this and in that aspect but from an ontological perspective have there been groups prior to this recent quote on only phenomenon

that rejected them dissimilar that's a very interesting question Jake I would argue that with all the sectarianism that we've had between between the some knees does she as the hotter geez all of these different sects they all united on the cinema now they may have had a different understanding of it but they all agreed with the ontological concept of the Sun and to me that is problematic for them to provide accident

I think they I think this some from my understanding there's some kind of proto argument points that may be scattered amongst diverse people but I'm not obviously let's say holding this particular so you've got this core honest theory that we've spoken off this ontological perspective of saying the Prophet does not drink he does not have a license to bring anything to Islam it is only the this position may have some

crazies in speaking about within the broader Sunni tradition even so this but it's not the same thing I'm just showing you some fossil traces that may be some slightly overlapping so there is a discussion on can the Prophet Helena be Sharia or is the Sharia only for Allah exclusively so you see in the assault books like general Chihuahua and other books they discuss this the Helena be Huck and usury that can the nabi himself like they all the sunnis agree that

there is more legislation than what is in the Quran so they agree but there is a sooner the difference is the ontological nature of the Sunnah they feel that some sunnis visit split amongst them so some feel that that Sunnah is also kind of divinely inspired so the proper he so for example let's say the Hajj all these other things the Salah the prophets say subhanAllah they would this is divinely in Hawaii what you knew

had that this is coming to the Prophet intuitively but divinely inspired others like some of the minor keys and there's been others as well they have argued that the Prophet could just like HD hardened just make a decision and some have gotten the extent so in German Germany they will argue that there's a position that he'll the the Nabi whatever he says here could were Salaam so that they are tied to luck that there is this multiplicity of truths of

objective truths now whatever the Prophet commands like let's say arbitrarily like let's say the Prophet was to say that they asked the Prophet can we do this he says yes it would that is now going to become identified as Allah the truth but it's arbitrary so for example they use the hadith that the Prophet is asked when he's talking about Hajj and he says one of the Companions says f equal F equally I mean Yahoo so Allah is it every year that we now should we do Hajj and the Prophet says to him also now know what happens if I was to say yes it would have then become

obligatory so I am in line with that view as well that the Prophet did have the license to legislate but there is a split within Sunni Islam they all agree that there is more than just there is no sooner in addition to the Quran they disagree on the nature of where the Sun is coming from is it just coming from part of it is is it just coming from the Prophet saying it because it makes sense to him so when a bus asks when the Prophet is saying don't do this for the Haram you're not allowed to uproot prongs you're not trees you know that

you and then Abbas says Allah was a ll also know about this particular kind of cloth we need that one and the process ok except that one so he's made it's in real-time he's interacting and changing it so I don't know if they tap into these grannies tap into some of that discourse if they do fine yeah but I would say in either way they couldn't tap into it why because both positions although they disagree about whether it is revelation divine revelation from

Allah or it is the messenger himself arbitrarily making things up they both agree that the result of either one of those things becomes an authority in the deed and the court honest is rejecting that notion they're saying that the only thing he has Authority in is caught on no I'm not saying I'm just trying to you said I'm just trying to find some markers identifiable markers in in our heritage just trying to think I there have been some philosophers who have

deemed you know they've kind of if I can use the word maybe downplayed the stages of prophets like they still said prophets were amazing people but they've kind of said that they felt maybe there's been some who felt that you know this is it's basically anybody that reached such amacom could have become then chosen by God and they didn't see them but this argument I don't see it like that in our history I could be wrong could be my limited reading but I don't see it like that I mean just just

referencing quickly back to the qibla incident people are going to say what is this fixation on the qibla that's because the Qibla is fixed with those with those two options that you mentioned the court honest can't use are there one of those yeah either has two says it was arbitrary that the messenger did it in which case why would it be being mentioned in the Quran or that it was wahi from a law in either case it clashes with him assertion that the only thing he was authoritative in was the Quran because

the question comes then how in the world did he know what the Qibla was if he was restricted to the Quran and no I totally agree with you on that and I think that now as ya have said one of your very keen followers Jake naazia I can't see the full names here I left you nausea sure sure she has mentioned nausea you do a lot of passion here she said Jake I've been wanting your lying backside but I can't I can't put a stop

the food stop what they let me finish the sentence because that might that offer might just be immediately taken up by Jake you might just go oh okay here is I'll send you my number it's it says MOT you're lying backside on a platform so make sure while you give me a time and a date and I will organize a live debate for us to talk about your misguiding backside yes not yet you've gone in deeply this seems to

be some some fashion whoring out there you're doing it nice here you doing it that's so let's say right so people I could see this you know quite a few people I think I've been following you Jake for a little while listen the court on along community they know me do they okay Wow realize how you're probably

Satan incarnate amongst them but you've got here Alejandro Solomon is saying mostly I knew Jake from high school shout me out you know a right or a link at love he is still my friend to this day and he's the one who originally introduced me to Islam so problem he's been on this journey with me I converted him from a son me to caught on alone and then he converted him back to be something and I

can draw you doing it mind you doing it right somebody right so Jake about his views on the hadith or Omar fighting operator for changing hadith and what's his problems with alle da WA ok so there's two questions there one is if you know of the hadith of Allah criticizing operator if you have an opinion on that and two if you have apparently you have you I don't know if you've been vocal on

Ali da wah I never met the guy I never spoke to him okay so that poem is all in regards to the hadith I'm not sure what the context of that is maybe do you know exactly what because that's so yes I mean there is a hadith which speaks about this quite a few descriptions we are marble yellow on criticized Abu Huraira for his excessive hadith narrations and I kind of agree with that sentiment I do

feel that in that in that culture of excess transmission it's inevitable whether from the transmitter or the recipient mistakes become inevitable and what you do is you that these things there's a great likelihood of false narrative proliferation to take place because if you're constantly just sitting down saying he said this he said this these these and these you know if you hear 50 things from me today there's there's a great likelihood that you might go away you know maybe even with three of them five of them mixing them

up with other things I said so all from other people so I feel that sentiment is true there's truth to it Ray's telling you're doing the super chair this is a straw man fallacy giving the Khurana sole authority does not mean one is unable to then use linguistics history and yes hadith as needed the key difference is not giving equal religious authority to both sources because that's the opinion because I Raistlin I totally agree with you and that is my view that is I would feel for the most part the view of the self of this OMA people like

Imam Malik other people they bring sahi hadith in the Mokpo in my mind and says by the way we don't accept this elite here it is with the golden chain but still you know we're not accepting it is going against the Quran is going against this so I totally agree with what you're saying right erase Lee and it makes a valid I mean both of us I don't think neither of us they're saying that the hadith is somehow equal or above what that has been my very problem with the status of Baha'i why I did behind gate I explained in the intro it's because I say the Hardy are three things that to

me bodies one the demon who I respect and admire for his great contribution and efforts in Islam to is the book and three is this myth and legend that has emerged this kind of entity which now Islam has become Bihari centric so this was my entire problem with them I totally agree with with you right me and somebody said views on LSD oh you're doing it mind you're doing it so right I don't know if you do you speak on LSD is

that just a random question right so yeah I mean my responses are that these are an issue of legality but I feel that beyond that I don't feel that they Islam is at odds or at loggerheads with things like psychedelics in fact they can help if done properly to explore a deeper dimension but yeah guys any I mean yeah

yeah I just want to make clear for the for the viewers I am NOT a scholar at all I am just somebody who has been involved with the put on only movement for seven years obviously dedicated a lot of time to it I mean you know I mean I mean I have I'm somebody who has experience with their argument it's the ins and outs of it I have all the verses memorized that they use and that's why I'm here to offer an alternative perspective to what

Professor eat up and the other quarter on only people have presented that's that's all right yep somebody has asked why hasn't he challenged a professor he did he has Jake must extended a friendly invitation and it may even be taken up any may even take place on my track people we may have the only thing is I don't want to turn into like and then hands go across the screens for

clarification since move T has contact with Edith and I also do we we both know him I have no problem coming on here on a different session and having Mufti as a moderator maybe he can ask some prodding questions to both of us and have us respond and have some exchanges and keep it academic and cordial and wrong with that yeah no absolutely I will extend you have really extended it to Professor you dip I will extend it to him I'm happy to do that the only thing is it's like that I obviously do respect

people no I do respect professor you did I have a very oh yeah you know and I see him as somebody you know dedicated a huge portion of his life to Islam even if it's different to my understanding and he's very passionate about what he does and he's senior to me an age and and in fact after the last show he was even saying to me he said you know I mostly I felt that you know I was just kind of I was being a bit too abrupt with you and I was being a bit too harsh with some of the things you know you should have kind of set me straight and I said to him that no that's not my something my style and - out of respect for you as a you know for your age and things like this I wouldn't do that but

yeah so I'm happy to facilitate that if it takes place let's see somebody is asked oh the thoughts on what is the meaning of ya'juj and ma'juj I don't know if you've had any theories on things like that have you done right so why don't you challenge Christian Prince Jake Brown katella Christian Prince I mean that guy is I'm sorry to say he's a

joker no he's very manipulative he missed quotes to put on hadith I don't take him seriously and I feel bad for anyone who does you know because I've been asked this as well that look Musti can you speak to Christian Prince now I initially didn't know he was I did check out some of his things on YouTube he had some kind of recorded sessions now you see somebody like that is just like in my impression I could be wrong but my impression of the few clips that I saw of him speaking to other people was he wasn't really interested in the dialogue

and it was just like I'm just out to bash bash bash Muslims and Islam and I don't care what you have to say because it doesn't really matter you can say that no and it is this way and so I don't really value is that kind of a discourse so I this is why I didn't I've not engaged Christian Prince I don't really see of much value to engage him because I don't see him as from what I've seen unless he is different in other places him being dialogical that's been a huge part I've seen him more as just he just wants like it's just passionately confrontational

so maybe people like who are equally like that on the Muslim side like people like I see Muhammad hijab for example I seem very passionately confrontational I see I see him as more knowledgeable than people like somebody and asked about Ali Dawa but even a Nadal wa who is I seen as a very passionately confrontational on Muslim side towards the kind of opponents many people like that would serve as a much equal kind of okay call

it that and with respect to Muhammad his job I mean I can see what you're saying about him but I wouldn't put them on the same level and listen no no no I wouldn't make us to me Mohammed II job is he's very he's I mean he's not an Islamic kind of like and share Hollywood but he's very knowledgeable he's not like and he's very articulate he's very he will listen the other person he's not like I'd watched some of his things but I feel that his approach is like he himself in one of his clip says look I when I go against certain people who are against Islam I am purpose will be very

aggressive in my thing to them so that's what I was just not on his Christian Prince I don't even see him as intelligent like that I don't see him as an intellectual whereas I would see Muhammad hijab as an intellectual although I you know will disagree with him massively on things yes now move tea have you seen some of Christian Prince's videos of like some of the filthy and disgusting things so the things I've seen is just on YouTube way he's doing all this this is what I'm saying he says it's not like I mean I'll just give an example because some of the viewers might not know them

and this is restricted so for example he brings people on his life random people call in he brings them on and then he just beats him down this one poor girl called up and she had to be about 16 years old or something I don't know but she was a young girl and she calls up and she's he's questioning her about a hadith that has to do with breastfeeding or something like that and he starts saying to the girl oh you know what are you are you gonna give me your breaths so I can get milk and all this kind of thing I mean this this is the kind of stuff like this that I saw

when I checked him out on YouTube I saw somebody who was just very offensive but his only purpose was to be offensive and he wasn't he wasn't an intellectual he wasn't you see I don't even mind being offended but I I want like proper intelligence like I want somebody with like intellectual to discuss with I just saw somebody just very angry and hateful of Muslims and I can't be bothered with something like that I've even seen other people who are sometimes you know it's they might be X Muslims for example but they still like I've been asked them why do you speak to such and such and I've

seen that this so for example I was asked there's somebody if you've come across him he may be more UK his name's ace and I've had some exchanges with him on Instagram Pleasant exchanges iMessage and he's an ex-muslim yet but so I initially saw like yeast I don't know if he still does if he's very active but somebody had sent me a lot of his insta stories ways very you know the Prophet is a pedophile the Prophet sex with a little kid what's wrong with you people how can you you know this is like this and this so I somebody asked me mostly can you reach out to him and he as a

person as a person views as a person comes across as somebody like like a cool person like some things that I saw you know it comes across as a decent kind of like somebody who's very streetwise and you know is clued up with what's going on and an intelligent as well he doesn't come across as dumb so I did message him and I said to him look you know this is and I just from the the the the kind of humanity side of things I not as a kind of I just said to him that look if there are any questions you can always reach out to me but I told him look ignore the hate as well because

he does get I could see a lot of Muslims are like oh you need to be killed you need to be this and this just makes it even worse then because he's a you know he's obviously getting really wound up now I saw recently he came on a podcast with Vida Vince and I did watch that but I could still see he was still hurting man you know because he said things like look Arabic is just a donkey's land region these are just donkeys and these are the and when I was asked why don't you get him on your show I did say that look I will but I feel he still needs to heal that he's hurting that I feel

sometimes some people are hurting so much that let that heal with time and and it will heal like I've spoken to other X Muslims who you know they went through a phase where they were really anti their hateful towards Islam but then it subsides you know and then they start thinking more it becomes less emotional and more rational and that's a good time to talk to people I feel real yeah so I mean the same thing I I mean even though I don't think Christian Prince was he an ex Muslim by any chance he wasn't an ex-muslim sure so that's a yes I would these kind of people I

wouldn't really give them the time of day like Christian Prince because or anybody that just comes on and he's just about the Profis of these the Profis blah blah blah blah blah it's not I don't want to engage that this is even worse than criticizing the religion is one thing but making it personal with with people who call on like this girl I mean there's one thing to say oh the Prophet was whatever we want to say he was but saying it to the girl and trying to say say these things I mean to me is just disgusting you know it's absolute you're

right actually I now that you said it I do remember some video I don't know he may have actually maybe that video with Annie now well actually yes I think I did see that I forgot all about it and this seems to be where he calls into I think alley that were all Mohammed but will their show and he does mention a lot of this stuff about all they cave there and he says about their boobs they gave them years to to you know the prophets wives gave their boobs with you were your mother's give their boobs to and it's us any starts personally

insulting yeah Oh will you give me your boobs if I tell you this will you give me your boobs and I'm like really mad you have some screwed up mine absolutely right so any of the questions people we've is he a professor 19e is a professor I don't know well that's a question to you is it to somebody else yeah I think you're training to someday

in the future yeah I'm doing some research actually speaking of Christian Prince I'm doing some research on the Christian doctrine of the Incarnation I'm working on a PhD on it and yeah so inshallah if I when I complete that I hope to be a professor in philosophy cool right so people we're gonna have to start wrapping this up I know we've taken up so much of Jake's time as well and this has been going on for quite a while are there any final if there's any rapid round questions we can throw them out

Jake who's on fire right now he's he's in his element right so I mean Jake I say as a quick question just any tree you as a person putting this aside I mean you're in New Jersey I mean know your relationship generally with other Imams or other things or the Muslim community tell us a bit just a bit about tea how is that going yeah it's good now since I became Sonny I'm attending the local mosque I used to not attend

Sajid before for these reasons and I'm studying Maliki thick with dr. shadi and Mary Oh dr. Sheffield must be if you'd come onto my try I have my differences with dr. shadow Masri but if he does come on it will be very respectful it will be very I would never you know any guests I bring on I would never be rude to any guests just body is not who I am so if he's willing yeah i actually

appeared on his podcast to have a similar discussion about the court honest sand 19 and all that stuff so and his Sofia Safina society yes nope so doctor share the podcast people checking us he giving him a shelter right there plug right there doctor shoddy soul of Makkah Habibi come on yeah yeah yeah yeah but move the if I could trouble you just to give one more verse on the sofa at mine Jake trouble me mine problem II got so with the same phenomenon that I spoke

about with the pitlor in chapter 66 verse 3 and I'm reading from EDA buxus translation it says when the Prophet disclosed a hadith to some of his wives then one of them spread it and God revealed it to him he recognized part of it and denied part so when he informed her she said and this is the key part who informed you of this he said I was informed by the knowledgeable the ever aware so this is a clear example of where the messenger was given information from a law that is not part

of the code on but is referenced in the Quran itself yeah no that is a very good point tension so so people may have been confused a little bit with the Qibla but this is a more oh that's a very good point you're doing it Jake when you're in your element today this is erasing you're doing it with the support mind you know what race Lee we're gonna have to I take it you're in another country we're gonna have to at some point fly you in you know what are you some of these movements a result of traditional

Islam's unwillingness or inability to meet modern challenges that is a very valuable question yeah yeah I would say the beginning when I first came across this taking the hadith the example is you know the cell if the sort of celephaïs Dawa in the UK and the u.s. is so prominent that I was unaware of the possibility of even rejecting a single hadith in Bukhari then I started studying more come across some of your videos and other people started studying

Malachy Fick and I realized that Imam Malik himself did not accept several hadith in Bukhari and you you've given the example before about the the dog licking the bowl and cleaning at nine times and all of that so I think that it is due to a lot of ignorance and I don't mean that in a bad way the laymen are not aware of this perspective I would feel there's even being I would feel there's been a systematic yes kind of cover-up all this I was gonna say that

we think yeah strong Wi-Fi going in one sense the laymen have to do the work to go in and seek out these diverse opinions on the other side the scholars have to stop hiding this and present it as this this is what Islam is and you have to accept every single hadith in Bukhari and if you don't you're a deviant or a catheter this is we have to get rid of this kind of presentation now I agree with you I

feel that sometimes so much of Islam suffers not because of the challenges external but because of the stubborn nature of those who profess it which is you know on many occasions and always on many occasions some of the clergy I was gonna make a comment here this somebody a I didn't delete the comment but there wasn't a comment here by somebody called Iran along Muslim now he said and I didn't delete this on purpose because I just thought look I'd rather make a comment on it he said look the school of

Zim dick Imam Malik who promoted shook but you know I just wanted to say that look in all honesty if you know you can say anything about your mama you could say anything about anybody I'm not going to get all you know we're not going to get like 10 years old and you insulting my dad it's not but in all honesty is this kind of behavior what how do you expect your argument to be won by just like insulting let's say symbols of within a particular orthodoxy to say well I know you know you're wrong so you're this Imam who just promote his in

be careful Imam Malik was a perfect nobody was perfect in that sense beyond so but I wanted to point that out rather than delete that in saying look this kind of hatred is not the message of Islam Hollywood I've even said like it when I spoke to Professor II did that look despite us disagreeing so much I wouldn't call you a I wouldn't even say it's I actually said it's not my job to say who is a deviant I'm just because people would say I'm a deviant is my job in just

saying that look this is what let's say so many Muslims follow this is what this school believes this is what main Muslims today for the most part seem to follow and that is your view so I'm not even see to me you're not a cat field to me you're not I'm not here it's not about me trying to call you a deviant you're just different let's go but now I mean that comment accurately depicts what I described yeah it does actually because they actually do believe and I want to say that because Quran along Muslim this is to you when this dialogue

began I said to Jake that I think you miss reading the hyperbole that they just write in the books that they don't surely they don't really believe that but you actually said no they do believe this is my experience you have just affirmed for us in real time that's actually I was just thinking I mean she is famous for going on Facebook and

saying all these kind of things how they present themselves as being open minded in all these kind of things but they're dirt like on the farm you have the far right and you have the far left and to me they're both sorry to say headcases yeah no absolutely so somebody said is Jake arañas no he's not but he had been for many years and this whole video for God's sake was about explaining why quranists are are wrong so this whole thing the whole dialogue was pretty much

covered up by that somebody saying I thought Safina was gonna be a hot chick [Laughter] I'm sure dr. shadi of mercy is kind of hot in his own way if you go on thing you like with subpoena a subpoena and like mashallah yeah right so cool people T guys right you know what let's wrap this up people right Jake if people want to reach out to you where some people have been making comments that you don't seem to

be too active on social media so I don't know whether that is the case was just because of kovat what is way can people reach out to you on Facebook I don't actually have an Instagram I do have a Twitter but I'm not really active on it they can reach out to me on Facebook Jake Braun Katella just as it's spelled on the screen and also I have a youtube channel called The Criterion that's th e criterion and okay for me to share it in the description share it in the description so people can contact me

there or wrong on Facebook guys there you go that's what we're talking about you can reach out and I can say that Jake is definitely active on facebook Messenger it's very quick at responding so if you want to reach out to him do that other than that people at the end of the day the whole purpose of this is to get discussions going get dialogues moving we did have professor le Pont he represented of you with other people present other views I'm happy to you know certain recommendations people want to recommend people do you message me I will chase it up in Charlotte and I'll try to so long as they are interesting

and interested so do check that they are interested as well cool guys other than that I will say that this right here today sugar and once again a big thank you to Jake who's taking his time out come on aligned with us given us his thoughts his theories his kind of refutation of the Quran along movement Damas Y Caballeros the man the myth the legend Jake right sugar and once again and people were Salam alaikum warahmatu lighter Allah I'm going to put out my my

page my exit pages always do like for God's sake if you haven't already like my you know what then we're gonna make a collective no holidays you subscribe but people take very good care of yourselves once again master AMA Rafi Manila assalamu aleikum