Mohammed Hanif | Freewill, Frailty of Occasionalism & Fathoming miracles | MindTrap with Mufti #11

haha assalamu aleikum people a sudden become one more heaven you doing it you doing it we is back people we is back that's what I'm talking about alright so another episode going down tonight on mine trap with Mufti do when it doing it first of all let me just ensure that the sound is coming through fine hello hello testing testing just

make sure that this no issues there I'll just bring this up slightly so you guys can hear me more clearly alright people wow that was a bit too loud Arai just check what the Facebook people are all fine as well right where are the facebook my facebook hint there are fried people just making sure you can all hear me fine in me I mean Hannah shares clear you doing it you're doing to there's no audio if somebody saying

there's no audio this should be audio I think you this should be definitely right it's good yes somebody says it's good cool people vampire shifts going down well we've got with us today let me just bring up the profile first of all tonight's esteemed guests people that picture right there you can see is Muhammad honey Brom town Birmingham's very own philosopher somebody who I've enjoyed many

discussions with previously so without further ado people I love what silent enormous Arlen and you are live Muhammad Hanif how are you doing man so you can point thank you first of all sugar and muchas gracias for taking the time out for us I appreciate this I know you're not a vampire well it's all good it's all good

as long as as long as as long as that we can kind of just benefit from the Baraka of you dozing off whilst sharing some of those philosophical gems we've had many interesting discussions before love to care in Shaolin and I'm aiming to inshaallah bounce of some of those fascinating discussions tonight I'm just seeing people have responded the colour that the volume is coming through fine I just want to make sure all right there we are people there we are

let me just check all right so right so sorry about that start if I did call you that within falsifier within philosophy and Islamic theology you do have a just a bit a bit about yourself if you don't mind for our viewers who ain't so familiar with you I mean you're you're from Birmingham you developed a an interest in Islam did you not and you

did some pursuit of of studying in universities and also in philosophy just a bit about that in maybe a few sentences a paragraph you if you if you're always been interested in pursuing knowledge about Islam fortunately when I grew up difficult to get traditional knowledge still even I share you have to travel to mother sir there weren't any in Birmingham and somebody studied from books in English eventually I took a degree in Islamic studies observing them

after first having the other work then took a master's in philosophy okay I have 32 feet whew you also have an interest in art as well you've that's a personal on the personal side I've got to say and Eve has some amazing artwork people which you may not share it with the world but and and and if I dare I expose as well some poetry

as well a poet is that in the English language in the English language people yeah I share it with the world on my Facebook page so this all their mind all right so somebody said that the feed is choppy the shells not clear right okay I tell you what let me on momento let me just I'm gonna try something here right so

one moment one moment I'm just hanging there just gonna hello hello hello hello right people it's clear saying it's fine Muftis somebody said something about masala

video is fine awesome right what I did was just refreshed it sometimes what that does is it does get rid of the glitch I've also shut down one two things in the background to assist but I have people just so you do know I've alright let me bring this up need to lower the bitrate yeah the bitrate is is low and already I have actually set up for a I've got a much more powerful machine I'm just waiting on the cable to arrive with this Co vid lockdown they've kind of you know just delayed some of the post but as soon as

that comes things will be even more epic right so I think that's good let's get a move on people so Hanif I know we've we've kind of spoken a lot in in the past as well shared some thoughts and ideas on quite a few things within philosophy are they first of all are there any particular areas within philosophy that have always appealed to you more than other aspects or any particular philosophers per se

probably okay so just for our viewers as well ontology I mean what do you what do you mean by what what's meant by ontology ontology is a study of being such you're cutting out can you hear me yes yes I can hear you so it's studying what exists at the most basic most general level not studying individual items in the

world such as Alamosa plans for the aspects of the universe by studying what but it's fundamental a fundamental level honourable like a study of being in an of itself isn't it like and kind of like one is like what does being actually mean it to some extent and from a philosophical aspect the categories of being equal sometimes you've got

predators such as being within time did you say yeah okay that's that's fascinating I mean time in and of itself is it's fascinating and a whole a huge discussion in itself really about like whether it exists maybe I mean whether it exists just simply as a phenomenon as an illusion as physics things like does God exist what is the nature of God

what's the nature of causality that's interesting because you know causality I mean this is something that's been at times kind of thrown back and forth between let's say people of science and people of theology we see certain things you know I pick a hammer and smash some glass and I see it smashing with me me doing that a me striking the hammer and

be the the occurrence of be the glass shattering is this nobody's denying the linee linearity of these events but what's called into question is that is this hammer really smashing this class I mean is this always simply correlation or in the organization and this and people of religion people of theology have had you know a lot to say about this and sometimes what certain things which I find strange I mean would you find yourself in in that is is God the

ultimate cause behind all things yes certainly God is the also cause behind of all things is the direct cause behind all things that's where the debate is just God operate through the secondary causes in the universe but is it directly operate all things happen because of God's direct command and it's up for debate the mainstream islamic decision what adducts catholics see is that God directly those own acts he's the only agent what appears to be the

acts of things really in reality what is making those things happen such as we require so just to be clear like I dropped my mobile phone it fell and smashed but really oh just to be clear are we saying to the other theologians saying that I dropped my mobile phone or God dropped my mobile phone or are they saying I dropped it but God smashed it and got meaningful what they what I understand is that things in himself

have no power yes so I mean things even of themselves have no power I accept and items that exist well don't exist for more than a moment and as such they have an agency they don't have a power to affect their cause to affect another I mean that God causes that to happen so like the phone falling for example this obviously would be said is gravity gravities of the law the force of gravity

gravitational force is what is you know drawing this phone with its master kind of and the impact obviously make may or may not cause damage theologians speak what is going on there different levels so the power level you're dropping the phone there's a force of attraction clearly and the undergrowth and that's what I the phone smashes but a deep fundamental level the actions are the particles that make up

the phone yeah only exists for a moment momentarily they exist man I'm only telling me though only accidental right okay cause really God recreates them at each and everything stand okay okay since they it since they only exist for moment I mean they have more effective themselves they can lead continued existence is being preserved by God at all times to God is in effect affecting the action are we saying this is like each moment is like an individual frame within a movie

yeah it's me that's the sort of metaphor has been used yeah yeah so God is crying and other frames are happening so the framework is so fast that we perceive it as a continuous flow of events so in essence does this not then strip all agency from any and all forces including the human force it denies the agency to their evil other than God however the human being

hasn't will okay okay this is where I think it's obviously that's complicated and this massive amount it debates and how how human beings are responsible for actions that proceeded from them the classical solution is the Dutchman cusp that human beings acquire with the ownership of those ads and responsibility because of our intentions were for those means which got affected because of our intentions but if we're saying so for example let's say a person

put a murderer as a knife and he stabbed someone what part are we saying is we recording all of like God is the doer are we saying God is the one killing and utter utter metaphysical level if you accept this understanding of reality and God is doing everything human beings however have more responsibility because they can't end their actions the intention is free it's not part of

the created world so human beings have the will to choose an event which has already been affected by God but if the event is simply constrained by all forces which ultimately are just God likely when we said he's recreating every second he's recreating every frame so the next frame like all of these frames or have me are just simply being created by God what could my intention possibly do to alter that your intention

your intention well this is where your attention God Almighty will cower let's say your willpower God's other theme of what happened equation align so you intend that which God really were going to do and he's affected a change obviously this reveals a tsunami divine abusing that know of Louboutins that God knows what you're going to in turn before you do it he enables that actor because you intended it that this is the way the creations be made so the mechanism

if we're saying God yes I mean one is God knows as in God's knowledge encompasses all things okay one is that he is ultimately decreed at the same time that you do this obviously he decrees because I mean if I think easily all predetermined by God if it depends on the position depends Islamic orthodoxy we believe that we have free will if you don't have that we have real

exactly yes we have free will as I wanted me we want to be morally accountable for actions exactly if all forces are directly being controlled by God does that not negate the concept of free will then no because a human will is enforced by one that's the thing which is me yeah but if the force is around like if I don't have like ultimately if I am doing like it's different let's say a person decides to harm another person so like I gave the scenario of because it's it's not a good scenario but the reason I gave is because it's so clear like as in

somebody he they murder or another individual now this is so everybody knows what's happening here now if I have the agency and freewill as a human being to do that and therefore I'm held accountable for it but if for me to do it God has to do it for me so like I want to do this but them the force moving through the environment the kind of to push the blade the force that's going to allow the blade to kind of enter into the body is really just the hand of God then can one not say God is equally responsible because I'm just

saying that in that case because if I'm the perpetrator but God is also the actor I mean who's the actor in this in this scenario he will be after God the world reality really can't be heavier than way and because idea is things amending themselves have no power for there to be a creation those things have to be causation by God why can't it be that God has created forces within this universe I mean because that's how I would understand that's how I

understand this that God has already created forces within this universe and lets them be like gravitational forces you've got different kinds of forces electromagnetic forces he's created forces of nature forces of and these things can just be and within them they can interact that's that's the other position that is another position just existed within Islam so there's only philosophers over half of that such as you can see now al farabi also he been rushed and found out you that goes back to language original philosophy dealing with the idea that things can happen

inherent powers and these inherent powers are endowed by God does that I mean does that not seem to make more sense to a certain thing because on the other hand if we're saying God is directly let's say I the phone example that it drops in this case I'm just saying oh my clumsiness drop T and the objection would be then if you could then it just simply just as easily say well why did God allow the doorknob to have an inherent power to cut someone's

skin he could have easy so allowing someone to happen you're using you're giving it you're giving a moral objection to it but the model of judgment could be said that God put up power into a thing which leads to harm no it's just basic no but that's just basic nature of physics in saying that certain objects when they have a certain spread to them that is much thinner than the other object can pierce through them I mean it's a spacing a basic fact of life it's not like something that God is saying well it's like saying well why do human beings fit through a door

you know why does something sharp when it's that sharp the edge of it why does it cut because this is the surface that it's making contact with it can obviously pierce and penetrate that surface just as a human being can walk through a door I mean these are just it's not that because there is a door that God has now made this as a law I mean I'm I think that's exactly that's the second objection though you were saying there's a low but who created that law who created these inherent powers it would be God and then someone could object and say well God didn't have to create in that way to the objection that you raised against occasional ism that God is carrying out

these acts and therefore is somehow responsible and also leveled against this position now God put these powers in place which lead to harm so it's just and just like you said that this is just a simple law of nature one under the attainers B this is a normal reality reality common any other way then God doing but is that is that not like okay this in saying that let's save reality in in life in in creation in the cosmos God has set laws in place laws within nature rules within fit laws of physics

laws of biology laws of survival instincts he set these things and then allow those like forces in the sense that things that are understood I mean I don't mean they have to be categorical laws but he said like let's say let's say behavioral patterns whether it's within obviously within and within within creatures behavioral patterns and other laws within let's say inanimate objects like something you know the way we mentioned that certain things will cut certain objects they will do certain

things if you throw it up a solid object into the air the regular pattern behavior is own to the ground that would be a force of gravity now I mean at play there would be the gravitational forces my point is that to say God has created these different forces whether we're looking at the four standard forces or we're looking at other things laws within and pattern isset e of behavior to say that still does that not make more sense than to say well god is ultimately creating

every moment from scratch what according to what doesn't make sense is it is it because one seems more know because on one hand we are saying that God then because in some of these text books they would say well like they will say in the theological textbooks they will say well when a person killed someone the actual doer is God the agent is God so God is the actual killer the murderer the rapist the ninja they're saying that the actual agency lies with God and not the

perpetrator and doesn't that sound absurd I mean what did that sound god is the agent in the metaphysical sense in the moral sense they don't mean easily one would say that is is the is the actor not responsible even in part for the action I don't believe so that's the point by the point being creation is being done in such a way that you have a free will God as it were implements your intentions in nature because you

yourself are incapable of doing that incapable of watering okay incapable in acting your intention in nature on your own you can't do that without God God's power in your household what do you mean like because you you have no agency you have an agency under this philosophy okay but I talk to you every every every instance you you will be continuously created again and again but if God has set agency as part of his laws that you nature instinct behavioral patterns whatever you want to see these things already

have agency so you can you know if a person does something like murder he is responsible because God gave them free will but if we're saying well every time a person does murder the he is the apparent actor and the invisible actor is God then that is like it's a joint-venture is it not are we not holding why are we not holding I mean one would argue that why are we not holding God responsible then is that not an argument made against all of this if we're to say something that that God is the actual agent behind these actions

because God affects the actions that you intended to affect I think this is an objectionable yeah you could say if you can be jumpin you can't the judge but yeah but it's not about you see if God is calling us to believe in him through sound reason which he is he's saying that look come on like think does this not make sense does this not make sense and we look at it and we say yes and then he's reminding us that he is a rahmanir rahim' which he is and he's reminding us

that you know he is not a tyrant he's not oppressive he's not you know somebody solemnly lobbied somebody that transgresses against his creation then the question is well in the in these situations we do seem to be seeing I mean the by that description would you not feel that by that description no because you're treating God as a moral agent like human beings as I it's a partner in crime there's garlic all be treated in that manner don't you think that that theology is that from that perspective just falls apart and it's

quite absurd I mean doesn't have come for us absurd would you not feel I don't perceive you wanted to do I mean I would feel it comes across quite absurd actually I know its many people do maybe in the textbooks adhere to this but I think if you in real life they would be quite embarrassed to say out loud like an and I think the general Muslims I I don't think they would actually I don't think they actually believe that but with the ones who haven't studied the

books as in haven't studied Dogman Creed because in Creed they kind of told okay you have to believe these so they know it as a kind of fact of information you know just that's like you're told water boils at 100 degree although that is an actual fact but I mean let's say you're told something and you memorize it so this is so they kind of memorize things but I don't think they actually believe that in the heart of hearts that God is the the one that's doing the actor as well the the kind of agent in in these bad actions like murderer and

genocide and stuff you know and causing starvation and causing cancer God is causing what would you say God is causing cancer yeah but no it's actually cellular reproduction so God has set a system in place which is in the DNA and the DNA is replicating the cells and sometimes by its nature there's male reproduction so it's a cellular kind of issue it's not God doing it but you're being all moral objection to this sort of philosophy you're saying this puts God in a bad light because he's actively

participating in something which is harmful and evil that's what you were facing I mean that is that not a much but but you just said there that goddess may cells replicate reproduce there's something that the job of cells increase in rate which equals the cancer well God creates the cells in a fashion that can allow the plateau to go so the same charge can be put against now because you see for the cells for the DNA to allow in its encoding a certain amount a tiny amount of let's

say maneuverability and arguably some kind of mutation is necessary for the code of evolution but II believe God couldn't prevent couldn't prevent those mutations from occurring which would be cancerous and damaging you see what you're saying is that when what you're saying is that cells that are reproducing all this mutation to occur which is part of let's say if this is what I believe is part of the plan of evolution it is necessary for there to be some space I mean metaphorical I see so why does a

space have to lead to cancer show that God is powerful enough not to allow no it doesn't have to admire and large in the overwhelming majority of cases it never does so but it does in those cases where it does the sort of moral objection that you place against occasional ism can be said about this position because you see this is now so for example you inherit your DNA structure from your parents who may have hid so for example maybe they have been exposed to something maybe they had lived by certain areas maybe they had done their DNA as it kind of combine to

make your DNA this this is what you inherited to blame that on God to say well God made me have this DNA that's no you know that's not how it works that's that's precisely the objection you said about first but I found that that's not how it works but the point being the way it worked is how God has made it work even under your account and under your account he's made it work in such a way that you have cancer you have any Kimia I always have a doctor no God is not making you have cancer no

he's brought a system about when no no because that daddy's akin to saying that because God has created the law of gravity God has created the ability for humans to fall over yes demands a point environment than the point verdict of gravity like if I can fall over and break my arm and then I say well you know if God never created or if God created gravity with a way where we could never fall over then that would have been more wise but gravity but in

wonderful I'm saying when I say auntie Nancy the same objection can put placing about occasion ism can be said about what you are saying you could have for instance a creation in which way since young children don't have those endured five words that cause extreme pain is it the C and D fibers the sandwich unified words that cause extreme pain imagine for instance until at puberty you don't a child doesn't until puberty a child annex experience extreme pain is

physically possible because the nerves would be kind of muted actually very counterproductive in terms of a survival I mean human being survive on the basis

of pain reflex limping about extreme page I could stick you could still have a faint reaction without having extreme pain yeah but now what we're simply saying is once there is a capacity for pain or pleasure they can be kind of what we're saying is you can max the matter the ceiling effect or you know you could kind of maxim and you're saying they should never like you know days not that they should never be a ceiling effect but that should have been muted anti-dumping dampened out for Charlie things are you saying it's impossible for that to happen

come on who's with you the way gravities are the way the world is that's just how it is and we can't complain Oh a gravity may be tripping falling have myself the objection that I put against you there well that could be in chained because God puts those walls into place those weakens that the gravitational force at this strength was God's responsibility that's exactly the same critique we made about occasion God is allowing the knife to cut God is the actor both are moral objections to opening but they're massively different

you see and I'll tell you how I see them as different I see them different in the sense that in one you're saying that there are laws within nature there are let's say dynamics in nature in which gravity's is an example or other things behavioral instincts or whatever you want to say and God has ultimately wired them into let's say creation but then he's given freedom of like choice freedom of action he's given intelligence to kind of work around things he's given defense mechanisms and he's like that's exactly

what's happening model you still have freedom no one is denying you don't have God is literally taking your your hand and pulling it round the other person okay let's just take let me just take it let's take chipping over and hornish okay okay under your account god has created a law of gravity that if you stumble and you fall you will kick yourself a fallen ship over yes yeah God has put that law in place yes okay only changing this point of view

when you tripped God pushes you to the ground push it and there's a counter gravity force by the way so car Diesel's not pushing you up and he's pushing absolutely so in what way is it different what if you hold God is responsible in in a case of creationism where what when you see less responsible in yours because he's the one who puts the law in place and the law could be

different absolutely secondly secondly when you say don't you feel that's absurd I stop arguing from your own personal incredulity that sound to you would say that is silly I mean you you have if God is is working on every time

a person pushing into the ground people who believe that V we do say that like like what is going down for example something falling is actually God pushing it down that's just that's the figurative but it's always talking about

it is what do you mean by completion because they gave okay I'll give specific examples in the textbooks they will say that like you know like nothing like let's say the leaf falls down they will say it is God pushing that leaf to the ground they will say that when a person named the stabbing example in a lot of textbooks they say when a person stabs is actually God that is kind of like you know getting that knife in and then causing death like God is then making the person be stabbed and and this is what causes the contradiction this is why you know certain theologian said

that you know three things that you know nobody can really fire them one of them was kiss polish ID and thought I'm not them and what's the third one but but that these the kiss of Allah Shah he was one that what on earth was the kiss well I said you know I'm actually saying that well you what you do is you know you even though God is is doing these actions but in the moment you kind of burned them because of your intention

it's really do you feel that that's even an understandable concept like it's actually like anybody truly understands that concept it doesn't have to understand them intimately I mean do you understand quantum physics no that's not know as iconic apparently the pound is true but there's famous thing if you think you are the son quantum and while we're talking about the fundamental level of reality the may be that we are not capable of understanding precisely what happens that's the whole point debate over causality to be going

on since the time of Aristotle to know a thousand years ago I leave what four thousand years ago now so it's not just I know a lot of you see this I'm arguing this from within just in case some people I know people will disagree but I'm arguing this within the Sunni paradigm I mean these have been the views of the great people like it naroch these have been the views of other so many kind of perspectives that may have seemed counterculture to able hassle a shoddy em and are people minority a

minority view within Sunni Islam it's a position yeah it's a position and and but I feel that especially in this day and age in this day and age when religion is much more under the microscope and people are you know it's not the day me you know there was a time when you could just say certain things and people even if they weren't really happy with them they were just accept them so a moment ago like when I said to you that yeah but one could argue could we not hold God to account thing because God is also he is the one then

facilitating the murder facilitating the rape facilitating the genocide and you said well and people they've said this in the books well well God can't be judged you see but the problem in this day and age is where people would be like well you know that's not a good enough answer in the past they may have accepted it's not sinky it's not just in here an ancient historical doctrine it's an entitlement for something abduction how about monotheistic philosophers even presently that reality is structured in this manner

they may not believe God but it's a legitimate philosophical even now not just to only limited to Muslims they caught how this is restricted to Muslims and Christians also I mean occasional ISM and all of these I mean it predates them as well you know goes right back to Greek philosophy but it's it was very popular in Christian theology as well I mean this occasional ism which the ash valleys and thematically these kind of took on it's very in fact you know in some cases mirrors what's written in Turkish in textbook don't you think

there's ample evidence within from the Quran since then support this position I think what Jesus to the Jews the Jews were they supported the position I think that if a person read the Quran they would feel that the Quran seems to highlight that if a person read the Quran without let's say been brainwashed by theologians or by any particular dynamic they're just reading the Koran and they could understand it let's say the

grandstand are weak they would feel that the Quran addresses humans as though humans have complete agency over their actions it's holding human beings to account for their own actions it's telling them that look if you choose this this if you choose this this yes but they know they they do see they accept this premise but they they say they struggle to reconcile it because they have to say that you have willpower free will because God is saying it

clearly in the Quran that you have freewill over what you're doing but then because they're also saying God has destined everything predestiny destined everything decreed everything they then have to come up with things like cusps to say with which I don't feel anybody truly understands cusps isn't to do this predestination cusp is the way in which God has agent yeah affects our it affects what we intend and we earn that

but that is exactly why they say what degree what I'm saying is that they are exactly what they are saying the reason they saying cusps is because the it's very it's absolutely because they've said that human beings don't have agency in fact all agency is directly God directly not indirect when the Quran seems to address human beings as though they are their own agents it seems to say people don't do this don't do these look such and such a people did this and then there was this consequence

and such as so now using that sort of type of language is a type of language everyone uses the France speaks to people in the language that people understand yeah but I was answering your question in saying that if you ask me what do you think the Koran seems to lean to words which sign I would say if you've read if you read if a person read the Quran as a as regular without being kind of indoctrinated with certain dogma they would feel the Quran addresses humans as though human beings have complete agency

in their surroundings as in they are responsible for their own actions it is not God creating their actions in the moment this is how the would read I that's how I've read it that's how I assume that the common now I can understand that that's they will respond like how you say that well God is just writing this for the common person he's kind of trying to relate to the common person what about what about verses for instance such as you did not throw about we through which were Sinatra may say

the freezer yeah and you will not win except on of God words so they are verses in yet so God does take my agency for things that you want inside but would you feel like this that's a very good example do you take those metaphorically you take yes I will definitely take that like I would understand by that you know like in this hadith from how I mean this is one example given that I'm going with I mean they may people may have a bit of a zero

other kind of descriptions is that the the prophets of Allison before the Battle of brother he because he made aa and that oh Allah if this if this group of believers today is destroyed let me talk about Phillip you know you this is it it's a make-or-break deal like you will not be worshipped as far as Islam is concerned now he according to some narrations then the Prophet SAW Allison took some sand and threw it and and there was a kind of like a sandstorm not a major sandstorm but a kind of Sun so obviously was a desert

and there was wind and the the the kind of non non Arab sorry the non Muslims are afar korish seem to have had sand into their eyes and that's one duration some people say it may also refer to the throwing of like like art you know like let's say you're trying to attack them and you're trying to throw something a weapon at them or something now the point was and it was hitting them so whether it was you know you were throwing spears or whether you were throwing an arrow let's say if somebody had an arrow with them or a sword and he struck the other person and he killed them that could also come into this

interpretation in saying well you know what Mara may say Amita you did not throw but it was God who threw now I would understand that verse to mean in the majesty of things that God is saying that look ultimately this is God's plan you know when you achieved what you achieved it was God behind you that this is how I would ultimately understand these verses Lamar Romita animator were like innallaha Rama as opposed to like let's say if it is if we're going with that were you going with the sand or were you going with the weapon I wasn't

I wasn't I was thinking going by me the weather was a little aside the heavy okay but when you through what through what what were you picturing as just for an example just so we could understand picturised the okay so the sand yes so what I was not what I don't understand from this is that let's say the process allows them through sand now each grain God is individually getting involved to carry the grains and then make them reach the eyes of the people just as a divine intervention here because I would

feel that then in that case why even make them fight why even allow this why not just settle it before it even begins why even what is the purpose why the struggle if if you're going to intervene in that way anyway break the laws of and this brings us to something very interesting on breaking the laws of nature I know you would feel that God does break the laws of nature I don't believe on losing what you first you have to establish what you mean by known as in nature so you use these words but there's a massive debate in philosophy about what sake is an oil feature are there such things as laws of

nature sure but what I mean by that is the dynamics the kind of that are understood in everyday life whether we're taking things like gravity as an example like in this scenario it would have mean things like when you throw something there is a certain amount of force that is exerted by the human hand that can push an object depending on its mass and weight in in what is the in die in accordance with the gravitational pull at the same time so obviously I throw you know I throw this object so you know gravity is also pulling down on it whilst I'm pushing it further away it

will kind of go and then eventually it will land that's that's just part and parcel of the laws of nature around us of our surroundings so are these laws written I mean those are using as a metaphor right okay four six I mean you can use forces I'm fine with I'm not force what makes these forces behave in exactly the second repeatable ways in that same pattern right why does why does the force of gravity behave the way it does always doesn't change so I know

what makes anymore so I would feel that it is God that a set laws into nature into his creation that's how I would believe that God has set laws like the gravitational law is a law that God has set a force that Allah has made part and parcel of his creation now obviously gravity despite it being in some ways so simple is still I mean you're very we're still actually a very calm clicks issue in trying to understand what actually corpses and white then differs with you know gravitons and other things or gluons at a quantum level but the point is gravity as we

understand it simply is I would understand a force that God has set in nature but he is not you see the difference is God doesn't have so when the phone falls or a person falls or something fools it's not God having to now say well okay now I'm going to pull this thing to the ground and smashy there's already a law in place that God has raised a force or has inherent powers in nature that act because what is bubbles powers yes absolutely absolutely

whoa so so would God now at times defy his own laws and break these apparent laws of nature like let's say a systems of nature if you if that's a better word or dynamics of nature or or force it however you want to understand I'm not caught up on the word law by the way so so things like fire burning for example or things like I don't know water is wet or I you know just general the part and

parcel of things in the environment all that how babies are born human babies are born or the fact that you know that human beings conscious or generally we can't just levitate in you know we can't just do that I mean yeah generally speaking these these laws i've general patterns of general patterns in nature and you're saying he's our because of god's put these laws in place so if God according on no account those laws have been placed there by God surely God can

do what he wishes with nature and make over his reasons yeah intervene to stop those girls from functioning functionally different manner what happens I he has I don't I mean just I know somebody said look about water ease of wait I'm just speaking as a figurative speech I know that's in relation obviously the particles are in relation to other particles they make contact with and it's the experience that is felt I'm not getting into the I was just mentioning that how dynamics exists in creation question I possess googling this either this is before we we told my about

throwing the Sun up or my death will not that I'm alone is created you and what you do that's another Texas to be use how do you interpret that one Donna what is it what you do know what what what is your Creator yeah right okay true in robot I'm alone now here this has been interpreted differently I mean you're probably aware of that it's not been classically always understood as all of your actions are

included because one way of understanding this is like in in Nilachal avec une voix Matta Malone so this is like well laddie Tamlyn okay that's one way of understanding and that which you have done yeah that's one way yes oh yes oh he has created the murder so God has created murder going by that example the other is that this if this is like mom Asturia he has created you

what armor look and your actions as in here actions if it was mam Asturia it would turn into a verbal kind of noun as in your ability to act has been created by God so that in a La Jolla cocoon and your ability for action has been created by God so he has created you in a way to have agency so you have agency so it could be understood in that way as well now and abeyance hence the classical debate on on all of

these kind of things but in relevance to this as well and and the question that we were just discussing as well miracles and this has been you know you think it's being taught me that way I mean you studied more to see than either we will focus it in half right now was it a particular school scholars writing out the wings okay so the issue here there are a number of issues here you see a number of issues beginning with power dynamics and

sectarianism the problem is that the Quran that's a very good question by the way so the Quran was revealed for about two hundred years there is no real tough seed that is around I mean you've got the tough seed of it no more party land these people who you know even though I'm on sheriffing he said it's the best of Seir on Earth today scholars would dread taking some of you know that the examples he gave now Imam Malik was alive Imam Abu Hanifa all these people they never told you what any of these verses actually meant people just read them and understood them now what

happens is and by the way the people you know the martyrs Allah and the Father he and these people already existed so in my mind comments on the martyrs Eli he comments on these people these people they their actual disagreement was to do with not to do with rationalization which today people will claim is to do rationalization it was actually to do with extremism that they were a kind of like an offshoot from the coverage they were like a middle ground between the Mozilla so and the reason I'm saying this is important just in case people feel that what I'm saying is part of the

martyrs nothing it's not so the Mozilla were a group people that they actually one of the first and foremost belief no as if you commit a sin you are no longer a Muslim this is the core tenets of faith anything is are you saying Fabio booth the bar was I came to ecology know so I'm just about to finish the sentence what yes of what they said is yes he and he was but I'm just about to explain that so they said you were no longer a Muslim but you weren't a Kaffir either but you weren't a Muslim either now so they said there was a purgatory state

called El Monte laba Norman still attained this station between the two stations this purgatory state is where all common Muslims are who are no longer Muslim so if they died in that state you won't read there janessa you wouldn't read their thing they are not Muslim we're not gonna call them care for either but we're not gonna call the Muslim there's a purgatory state this belief of this is the first and foremost of the Asura Kamsa of the five tenets of faith that they believe in adhere to this is what caused the split and hence they were called martyrs illa when Aparna Wasel I saw a wall sleep in a box

and it gets up and walks off and they say now these people already existed you know they were in the time of hassan abbas ali and they say arguably they say Hasan Basri was one of them he's in the books of the martyrs Allah is he not hence one of the criticisms against Hasan al-basri by even a saline and other people was that he was martyrs and he used to call him Mata silly and they also claim that obviously Sedna Ali was of this opinion but that's a different discussion now the point is that what happens is after about 200 to 250 years of Islam you start to get this whole new emergence of

we will now call ourselves we've never had a name so now we're gonna call ourselves Allison Allison and who comes up with that Allah um some say it has some actually came up with it some people say somebody else came up with it but it begins with Imam Ahmed is one of the key players who comes up with this whole discussion of the Quran and so on and this club emerges that we need a set of rules to check people out of this club like who is part of our club who isn't part of our club we need more tighter rules and this develops and then along the years

the Farseer develop and now this really clubs you know are you part of this club are you part of that club so so suddenly thought has been kind of like stifled and and the whole thing has been really along the way unfortunately people have suffered because as a reaction to some Mota cities some Sunni scholars started to dumb down and their own theology because they started to say well you see because the Motta's illa not in the early days but by the third and fourth century he started they were huge linguists and they started to obviously

study philosophy and things like this so they started to catch out faults in the mainstream narrative now as a reaction instead of kind of saying well oh you know look let's counter these the martyrs early claim was that you guys are using your uncle no sorry you guys don't even use your uncle look this sounds dumb so as a counterclaim instead of saying well actually we are using our uncle and we're using it like this the stubborn reaction every kind of stance became like a bravados what I call a

reactionary bravado kind of complex was that hahaha it's dumb to use your uncle anyway you know we hear you people use your uncle we don't use our uncle we just go with what is said here and this stance emerges this kind of dogmatism based on a kind of bravado reactionary bravado to the martyr Zillah who are kind of mocking them whereas what they should have done was taken ownership and said well actually you know we interpret this like this but we do use our intellect the intellect is an amazing gift so

so you're saying that the Ashley's and the material is worth using the intellect to through the Methuselah frankly were a dogmatic say that the traditionalist Harmony's who said right now no that's not true so the ash Heidi's in the early formation were people who prided themselves on the intellect so the hence in when they begin they were all about reason the voice of reason mahasin actually was a martyr's early

off it was you know he was the nephew of Jabari of idea to borrow I mean he was a martyr's and he born and raised Martha's Lily a person who prided himself on reason Albert Kalani was a major you know proponent of reason I don't some doesn't matter now but what happened generations that come after right what happens is the martyrs Eli start to rise they were already they they start to kind of make a lot of a lot of them are linguist they were already there but this culture

starts to emerge like sometimes maybe the discussions we're having now in two generations although this is an old discussion but if it was new in two generations people they may be a reaction more visible then so what's happened in latest from me thought not that later but a few generations later you start to see as a reaction instead of taking it by the horns they start to dumb it down by saying well you know well you know you mock us for not using our Ethel for not using our intellect but we're not meant to use our intellect

in religion you know so that is actually the contempt that is actually the common standard response now and for many centuries but then you saw what happened when with claim and arrangement using this happen what does it was not bad all right okay so I right okay that's a V actually I feel some point supports this argument of trying to say well the reason you know we need to dumb it down as in because he massively influences this

whole dumbing down approach because not in his early years and maybe not in his absolute final years when he switches back to becoming a scholar Islamic scholar of like a soul and faith and stuff but in that whole kind of soul-searching gap he does in between he studies philosophy and he loves it and he does all of these things and then he feels that he's kind of lost in this abyss he feels that I can't it's you know Islam doesn't proceed I can't seem to find the answers anymore and maybe you know according to some he becomes a kaffir he leaves the fold of Islam or maybe he doesn't but he definitely starts to doubt Islam and doubt things

around him and then he feels that the only way to really find certainty is to not use the voice of reason and to kind of just dogmatically hold on to the faith and you know he's monthly the minute Bilal he's kind of book on saying look I did all this soul-searching and I you know I did my genius exploration exploration and I feel that there are no answers ultimately and we need to kind of just you know just take a leap of faith and I feel that that in some ways contributed to this whole dumbing things down and hence even a rushed really you

know has a huge goal of as early over all of this this kind of like trying to the damage that he feels that has earlie has done to Islamic thought isn't that popular trope even what's his name the American astronomer astronomer Neil deGrasse Tyson yeah even he was does YouTube video saying that in the fault of Islamic decline is in place that it was armies popping okay I'm not like that's true okay studies that philosophy carried on his

lawn jockey school in Persia even amongst Aboriginal Ozzy razani she simply wanted to stop ordering people from pursuing philosophical debates and the higher knowledge he was there for he said the high knowledge of God could only be achieved through not really intellect but through sort of revelation a personal divine revelation internal to a person but he didn't deny I just just to

clear up right I don't fully go the way let's say Neil deGrasse Tyson has said but I feel that he does have some truths to work to that claim I think if you see it's been awhile since I watched that clip of Neil deGrasse Tyson saying that about Kylie if he said it like because I can't fully recall it but I think he did say as in he was like.he everything was doomed after him like he it was just like a tsunami I don't I don't agree with that but I do agree with he were contributed to what became this dumbing

down approach of of Islamic you know this voice of reason within Islam so even like you mentioned Rossi I feel Rossi is amazing because he's a push back attempt but you know he's kind of tough diesel Apple the whole thing of this letter and lets you know the scientific ation of the intellect but it's not really doesn't seem to be taken on much further like people can say it but they and I do I agree they were they were philosophers long dream that existed after considering even taenia

wrote a massive your book doing objecting to the phosphors inversion no tiny book on on internet I can get a massive in the park I think there's an ongoing debate in Islamic history always wanting the internet to have a preeminence in understanding the revelation and those who rely on the context so I'm going to make a look because now I I would ask how does one understand anything if not through the voice of reason how do you understand how do you how do you arrive at any understanding of course you you have to use any reason you have to yes so if

songs Adam I don't accept your thesis that there was a dumbing down that's the whole point ok so what do I mean by the dumbing down that's a good point because many people may also have that question what I mean by the dumbing down is that there was so in Islam today there is an image there is an image right so there's a like a caricature if you like or an archetype of to to really be connected with the faith you don't use your uncle to get there ok so this is one thing and the uttal can't be entirely trusted and we

in fact have to even be suspicious of the intellect and reason there's this this kind of duck this shade if you like it this lens also adding to that adding to this caricature is a dimension of to really understand God we need to kind of be like kind of Hermits and ascetic and true Islam is kind of like an anti wilderness a kind of asceticism it's like a giving up of the dunya and they kind of abandoning these kind of things there is this kind of caricature that undeniably exists I'm not saying most

Muslims have it but it's a respectable kind of like a caricature within the Islamic stage if you like this figure this kind of archetype its formation Imam Ghazali played a key role in its in contributing to its formation with his Illuma team he's okay you don't think colonialism a massive impact you have on the Muslim educational system and the decimation of Olimar on the colonialism had that occurred we had I was argue the morally because pre a three clone in

Islam to get anywhere in bureaucracy a Muslim Islamic well you had to be an island you had to study and you have to come through a syllabus which included falsified the sower and food and thick so then I don't think there was anything done really now we got to the stage where for instance you have a just use a pejorative and village maulvi whose nose hardly anything about the religion can read some Koran and because he is challenged by modernity can't answer question if you ask he wants to reject

because of his limitation so we have people now for instance who use the hadith the you know the statement of your mom I the same alley about the Dean was I was basically after we'd be working boss Baba shoe I'm not which by the way according to the my lackeys they do like the bomb but so you so you have this you have all these trends in Islam yeah I think I love you to do is post after the colonial impact and and the Muslim Muslim was as it were done done and retreated to a religious understanding the Dean and in abandoned

abandonment of science and of philosophy and then the internet I would agree I would agree that colonialism has had a massive impact on religion that we see today I'm not denying that I definitely believe that but and the whole worldview kind of changed and there was a return to fundamentalism as a reaction so I actually feel today most groups that you see like the most groups whether they brave ease the way brave ease are today or do Bundy's or al-hadith these groups are actually ironically a real modern phenomenon as a reaction to modernity I definitely agree with you but that

wasn't my point my point was that I'm not saying clonal ism didn't have a huge massive impact et but I was saying that this image within Islam that Islam you know like like if you had a high rocky the the real Islam is really the Islam of this ascetic who is kind of who is suspicious of reason and reason like imagine we had a dykon you why do you have an image I mean I don't have an image

imagine you only had a black-and-white you you could only put it as positive or negative yeah just say we've got right now we're dumbing it we're restricting it reductionist lens that black-and-white positive and negative that's see the intellect by this ascetic person would be placed in the negative I'm not saying it's always negative but if we had to like if we had no choice then it would not be in the positive it would be in the negative and they might rely on intuition in the positive so this ascetic image that Islam is this anti world nurse I'm not you know I'm

I'm an ascetic I'm not into the dunya I'm not into stuff and and I'm not even into reason and it's just be simple I feel that Imam has earlie definitely was a key contributor and somebody that cemented that image and he he added to this what I feel is actually a part of a I do feel it's part of a disaster for this oh my I think there's nothing wrong with a person wanting to be ascetic but to place this on the top of the hierarchy as this great man of God I don't mean in my mother's early I mean

this person this image because they are suspicious of reason and because they are anti-bully I feel has had catastrophic kind of repercussions in the real world but that's I know people will find that problematic and hence his book you know yeah aloma Dean the Maliki all the yard said burn the damn book you know I mean all these Maliki scholars in Muslim Spain said burning you know this book is absurd because I know today people love a hero rumba theme because it doesn't mean something the way it did back then because back then it was new you know this whole aesthetic

approach to Islam we've made up hadith but that's a different but coming back to miracles I think okay because this is because you have a notion of miracles because as far as I understand a miracles are in the portal they are hadith catheral hadith saying with personal reason for miracles some say I believe if not individually at least by meaning they resist racism a lot away but certainly miracles are in the Quran

and I feel that you try you have your own framework don't we all to some extent hopefully you have a new framework which is important and then we interpret things which are clear-cut miracles and give it a naturalistic spin so for me you remind me of someone like say Mohammed I said okay I haven't actually

read from the few things that I have come across him I I do love his way of thinking yeah I do feel he was a genius as if not sure the great Maliki said he's the genius of our age if not he also looks at the Quran and interpreted

multum the knowledge of his time so he interpreted the quranic ayah naturalistically so for instance you know Jen could be bacteria Muslim to say Jenna bacteria like set that as well okay so this is this is modernizing paradigm which so looking at what someone might tell supernatural elements in the Quran I think somehow this is backward this is superstitious this is something that Islam is against and we need to be modern we need to be

with the age and up in the 1900s 1991 hundreds of em science was advancing most another seems to be backwards and we had to jettison resource of beliefs to become part of the model well I think that with your interest in science and it's achievements you your influence to read up on our in that light and then I think you're denying things which are good if known in the Dean that as an example what kind of miracles are we talking about and what kind are we

saying denial as in and just a picture er we saying like as in explaining it in naturalistic or seeing it you see I because I'm seeing so if we're saying for example I'm just pitch I'm just taking I'm trying to think of an example like let's say so for instance you you we had this conversation previously and you said well the staff of silence and you said no nothing as far as training as a magician no I never said he was trained okay oh he wasn't he I think just a famine which he was in an

environment which magic was sort of the advanced science at the time magic was part of the society or what purported to be magic the regionally magic and Musel I said I'm using illusionary magic to cope to combat illusion all advisers actually was an illusion right so yes so part of us just to clarify my explanation of what moosa aleihsalaam said and i have got a video clip on that just saying the focus there for the camera right now the just too clear what I've said is that moosa

aleihsalaam when he threw the staff and in a pea it appeared to kind of be like a snake I think something is the word appear right okay so in the Quran there's three kind of references this one way it clear that it's appearing well you hate you delay him and it appears that it's in their minds it appears what's the hell you are Yunnan ass they tricked the eyes of people and in some it seems more apparent and in some it's in the middle so now what some people they will take this and I'll just

I'll explain my my mo cliff and then I'll show the the other one and we can kind of just you know take that apart the so my understanding is that yes it was something the Mufasa didn't say there was something to do with Quicksilver that was being used at that most Marfa sitting right in the Quran in death of seve that the way the magicians starves their sticks look like snakes because the Quran says they sticks also was like snakes weren't they so the reason it was like that they say they had some kind of illusion using Quicksilver zip book and things like this in our week now whatever that was

moosa aleihsalaam was he came to learn of that now that hence also with that Quicksilver I feel that that was when you know that when it reacts to heat and hence his hand one of the signs was his hand glowing and when he puts it because he added heat to it you see now this is why when moosa aleihsalaam is challenged by Pharaon he sets the time that the time has to be at a certain time just after sunrise when the Sun will be shining down at an angle so moosa aleihsalaam Pharaon agrees that

we will okay at that time will will kind of meet up in front of people now we'll put this to the test because the Sun this mentioning in the Quran was a crucial it wasn't just like he said something just randomly right now coming back to that there's a crucial verse Allah says that moosa aleihsalaam through his staff now his staff that he threw in the end didn't turn into a snake necessarily what I feel is that he threw his staff and it mentions tell careful Maya fakin that and and this is depends how you

translate it because you see people translate it that he ate it consumed Teleca for the sticks the staffs of the other people it kind of consumed them the way a snake would eat it now the other interpretation and this goes back to the other verse we spoke about magia is must Aliya and it's not a eight what they were had fabricated but it ate their fabrication so what it did is it exposed their magic for what it was so the public saw ah that's how they did it

it was a trick now you see and I said that this actually makes greater sense because because if he and this point I think is a crucial point because on one scenario let's take scenario a that Moses came they came they threw a stick and he turned into snake Moses came he threw his stick staff and he turned into a bigger snake and like an anaconda snake and ate up the snakes that scenario a and everybody said wow you know what he is definitely the strongest side to go with so whoever's Rockets are bigger whoever is the stronger force we

should just follow them I think that's a bad message that's just saying might you know whoever comes with the most powerful thing let's follow him the other way my scenario that I understand it would be that he came and exposed that wait a minute these people don't have no Sutro or supernatural powers or they've done is just trick to using these elements and the people saw that and thought wow you underst and and so this was just okay I don't want to take up too much time on that but coming back to your point I just

want to explain my but you're asking that I had an issue suppose you're in the okay doesn't

happen so yeah like I say a human flying like just on his own you just know you know he couldn't just do by his own by human capacity it's impossible but let's say God has intervened to make it happen despite the fact that normally that

could never happen so yeah like so stick can't ever just turn into a snake so okay so what do I have any do you first of all you see no problem in that you don't okay the question is this look if that be the case first of all on a tangential melt that I won't go into it but every so-called miracle in the Quran I feel is being is being inaccurately interpreted by people to make it look

like that because the verse is are usually can kind of go either ways in many cases but people take it in this way okay now and I feel that why they are mentioned just as a another just a caveat but white of Quran mentions them like this is because they mentioned amid stories narratives and stories sound better when they're kind of like said in a dramatic way like they you know if I otherwise there is a much point like people pass on stories much better when this you know something magnificent about a

particular thing so okay coming back to this we know that in the real world this stuff doesn't happen like that we know that as a fact we know in the Quran as well the Quran addresses this that look the kuffar of Quraish said to the Prophet we will accept what you saying just make a spring come out of here just make something come down from the sky just do this just make a river up here here this was the perfect time for God to do that that people would have believed I mean it would have you know hey if you're gonna do it for the Israelites why not just do it there and

then what's the that what why would God tell me why why was they no miracle in front of the macula muckin people when they asked for miracles specifically no that was I mean first of all although I don't claim that the moon actually split I feel that it was more the perception as if numbers transmits that it was like an eclipse but the point is that was in Medina by the jebel of ahead and this is another thing you know the miracles happening in Medina where everybody is already but a believer a Muslim okay you asked me about this before

Janna and I I didn't have the response is that the absolutes stopped me at the time because I was thinking about and I thought you had them but now you've come back yes why why in Makkah were they no miracles for the for the people asked look if you just chose a river you know hey will believe in your God will believe in him as being will believe in

you as the messenger from God but yet the Quranic responses are you guys crazy you know have you lost that enema and a pleasure I'm a human being how do you expect me to do these things this isn't what that's the Quranic response to the muckin but yet we claim that God will do them happily so just to make people believe somewhat why not ones of response I thought was the Quran was revealed to the Hawkins yeah yeah the Quran itself was a miracle

yeah that Watkins could judge the purpose of allowing sanam was truthful in his message variable of students and demanded miracles and it was almost like they were testing God should the God himself says that my car will be aya the only thing we open up the gate for them to send a letter to ascending to heaven they will not believe so so what they're not gonna have an opportunity to why not give them an opportunity and let them

fail because miracles have different purposes some of you some miracles may be to drug it prove the truthfulness of a prophet believe that was the Quran some vehicles are used to strengthen an amount of believers people already believe this okay sure haha perhaps it could be that at least the Americans the muckers were obstinate and miracles would have been of no use to them would you or not and they were putting God they were putting God on a

test so would you not agree that it's not an unreasonable request for one who lives in a desolate desert to ask for a spring of water I mean that's what they were asking for you I mean is that not a reasonable request to say hey look give us a river here I mean we're living in a desert after all why not just give them a river and then see if those who fail fail perhaps God wants to bring them to Islam why use it use of the intellects rather than forcing believe upon leave upon them by a miracle

yeah but then he seems to turn a stick into a snake according to that interpretation just for a few Israelites and here the sake of humanity is at stake no I mean like currently Islam it's not possible apparently most of the miracles in the Quran or who are many countless are all to do with God's favorite children how the Israelites you know for them by that perspective God seems to be bending the laws of nature every other day every other Sunday just to save his favorite

children the Israelites the Jewish people but when it comes to Muslims and to embrace Islam God doesn't seem to do anything I mean is this not almost an affront to the message of Islam perhaps it shows the maturity of mankind by that stage when kind of ISA stage when miracles as a as as a sort of coercive way in which bring people to believe wasn't needed misawa's came to the to the big to bring people to go through the internet and the miracles that the prophet saw allowing sort of

had by a large where were miracles that will tell me one miracle the prophecy allison that we're talking about just as an example like if we enumerate some or about two or three or if we can just from there okay let's okay let's take that as an example then because I just wanted because I would argue that there was no single supernatural miracle with the prophet sallahu Salem it's just

his character was miraculous and the Quran in its entirety as an as a kind of phenomenon was miraculous but there was no miracle as a supernatural miracle now then on the moon let's just take that as an example now even though even our shooter who was a maliki in you know from my teachers teachers and he says also that look this even though many companions said that they felt you know they saw the moon a split being split this may have just been a perception due to an eclipse or

clouds or whatever Ashwin is modern movies yeah but coming back to the actual miracle that was just a side note in case people felt that nobody had said it coming back to the actual discussion the splitting of the moon right now I would like to ask that what was the purpose of the of splitting the moon has a final demonstration what does that

mean like his power as well as like as his magnificence do you know possible on the moon we are aware that the people around the Prophet who witnessed this were Muslims already I mean you're just preaching to the converted why not preach to those who asked for a miracle because what's the point of you know these companions have already endured so much hardship you know they prepared to fight battles go to the death they are many of them are diehard

believers of the fate of this of people of faith I mean it's nice that God decides to you know if according to this interpretation break the laws of nature just for them but one man again the context of the hadith use it is that the sort of the moon is because it wasn't in concentration within right now so in this sense I think I mean because obviously I die I feel a lot of these are these are problematic on this issue but nevertheless I think it's were they coming back from a herd or somewhere but they were coming back from

somewhere and all they were but it's the description is it was between Mount Hood and between something that they saw that the moon was split and this is that it's a descriptive event I'm the main thing this is what is transmitted as people say well we're going to accept it because even though the variations people may disagree but the the collective event that they can extrapolate from it is that the moon was split now a big question is what is the purpose of splitting a moon like what is

it what what objective does it serve you know like what I mean I could understand I mean and the believers didn't ask for a miracle so god what what is the you said that miracles have a purpose what is this purpose many purpose it was a truth that's what the coffee is saying is the truth because it's a like a certification but the profit is from God because it it's testifies that no one else could do this other than God okay so why why not doing in Makkah when it was needed again as I said maybe because

the Quran was there for them and God was God wanted them to enjoy to Islam using the Internet okay okay that's treason if it could be also now if you want some miracles being once you've seen a miracle and you reject it then you you Raja has been established upon it and so there's no excuse for me not to be a believer so they gave them a chance to to consider Islam and come to come to this time rather than reject it outright because a miracle but I thought you said that God

didn't show the miracles perhaps because you really knew they wouldn't accept it okay let's okay let's go with he split the moon apparently that God split the moon to affirm the faith of the believers is this what we're saying what is the purpose of splitting the moon like what what happens and the moon splits and what like I wouldn't is not I could understand if if God made a river appear so people could benefit from water in

the desert but what is what happens when a moon splits like he demonstrates the power cause power doesn't ISM is a demonstration of the power of God isn't it crisis it I think yeah but but yet you have to still fight your own battles and you have to do your own thing yes because it does because it can instill confidence you don't okay because you've you've got you've got you've got believers but you've got believers who may be nuts million to the Interfaith

may be believers who are wavering there's a reassurance they come back from or her the situation was over then come back alone where they suffered a setback essentially maybe the spring but I accept the affirmation argument but then tell me but then the problem is the huge tsunami of a problem is that look people today we're in one of the greatest crises of faith ever why doesn't God split the moon for us you know we need a miracle because it's not

missing anything needed it isn't miracles are really mucosal atheism is on its you know it's unprecedented heights globally how is how is the a miracle not needed today I don't I don't get that how ok ok let's say the people of Gaza we could take or the people of any Burma or any kind of oppressed minority in the world or let's say some of them being tortured or people Regas or wherever they are whoever why doesn't God intervene as a

miracle to save them because if you're saying God can you know he will check he will intervene in human dynamics and laws and interfere like this like he will just you know just to prove to affirm the faith is fine or to I don't know it show us a sign that look I'm more powerful then why not help these like people who are countlessly dying and suffering when it was the Jews you know for the Jewish people God seemed to

do everything he seems to split the moon do I'm sorry split to see you do this do that do you know he's doing everything to save the Israelites why not for his other his other servants why why did God do miracles for this place why did he save them because at that time they had a special missing message mission what was their reading stuff to Venus none to the world there were puppets were prophets were they were failing with the prophets they what's the favorite thing yet no but I'm not just talking about the prophets I don't do my I don't mean moses ali salam or people

like that I mean the Israelites who he was saving so Moses himself you know if it was just if God just want to save Moses moosa aleihsalaam then moosa aleihsalaam could have easily been saved I mean he already was from you know he had a very aristocratic upbringing he had contacts connections he could have you know if it's just about saving moosa aleihsalaam but it was about taking the children of israel to the lost kingdom returning them to the kingdom of judea and setting up the kingdom of God on earth the whole thing this was the mission I mean Moses Ali Salim dies enroute trying to fulfill this mission for the children

of Israel now why for them you know God can do he's doing all of these things it's constantly intervening you know is they want this they want that but today when Muslims are suffering or other human beings are suffering God is clearly it doesn't seem to you know there's no miracle happening today no food coming down from heaven for the starving people today because all right so it can only happen but come on but then that's binding God so he said God doesn't need you know what what's the

incident but the miracle is a company a messenger that's what it's not that God needs unperfect to be there but miracles a company messenger that they started miss initially but then you said when it was with the Prophet Muhammad SAW Allah I leave salami in Makkah God just didn't do any miracles you know he didn't that's what you're saying no but there was no miracle in Makkah what was the miracle of Makkah perhaps it wasn't perhaps it was to show the Muslims that that you have to be full and show fortitude - they were in Makkah for her on that day

thirteen years so yeah but so prophet sallallaahu I leave Selim was going through the most difficult of times I mean that difficult time that's when patience and fortitude was being developed a mother moving the believers there sure but if it was the favorite children of God these are long as a how long how long were they being oppressed by the Egyptians it wasn't as if God had sent miracles to them on top and they were just so doesn't this just defeat the whole purpose of miracles

thing I mean if we're gonna believe it like that you see if you give miracles naturalistic explanations then it doesn't seem well hmm okay it's not like these were within laws of name or any way that people were you know it wasn't if if you take money and Salwa and all these things to be natural things if you take things like the the parting of the sea to have been a natural event as it's been explained as well by many biblical scholars or if you take let's say the splitting of the moon to be a natural perceptible event will you take these things at least then it goes to show well hmm you know like well

this is its you know I get the fact that in a story sense it sounds like that but in the real world you know it's this is it was natural don't you feel that that reinforces it helps people's faith today how does it force people's faith stuff in the Quran you've got stories essentially no they've been they've got jazzing of the fir'aun's make it more interesting as in the same energy he said you said these miracles are here okay in stories yeah need to be more dramatic it's like saying Allah Allah

you sort of you know you know sure not the nature of narratives is they are presented in a way like let's say for example like let's say I'm telling you something simple like let's say I did something and I managed to do something so I say like I'm telling I'm relaying my event to you let's say someone and I say you know what this happened but uh don't worry I saved the day now because I say I saved the day I handled e now obviously I'm gonna say that to place greater emphasis on this event and it sounds this is how narratives are

expressed in a human expression it's not just this expression but actual events which on that face away and for generations and Muslim scholars and OD people have taken on the face of it to be miracles and no thing there were nothing of the light and in a sense God has misled people until now well what because these things didn't occur not making it did occur nobody's saying so one is so for example it would be a lie if let's say there was no such thing you know that Moses ELISA Lam never turned up to

Pharaoh there was none of this storm nothing like this ever happened you know moosa aleihsalaam was just sitting at home one day and he's carried on his life like this but God then decided to tell a different story about him that would be a lie but to say well look musa alehsalaam went and he did this and he threw the now these are just the wording in the verse is slightly ambiguous and yes if you take if you take some verses they aren't Nvidia's that they I don't know watching that because it really said it in some cases the wording is that yes oh god yes yes

sure so God is saying so let's so place is that it's not so God is saying so for example we did this like and yes but that is magnificent kind of died speech isn't it it's the style no because God no but that's how narratives is the kind of message of it's like like like imagine now like imagine if when a person you've got obviously this is not a befitting metaphor but just as a metaphor as a metaphor for example this is not befitting in any way like that but I'm giving an example if there was

somebody powerful it could be it could be a nation it could be a king it could be a mafia boss it could be somebody and he says well look you do this I'm with you or like if America says to some country you do this we are with you we have done this it gives people great strength in knowing these things similarly in knowing that God is with you he gives people the ultimate strength so this this narrative in saying and we did this does it mean like when God says look and we made crops grow from the earth but we know that God has a mechanism you know sends down rain ok yes I understand that joking but you

have specific examples where God says relates details of events now occurred in the same language as if they thought other historical events so for instance you've got the idea of that the man with the donkey and the donkey being brought back he's being brought back to life after 100 years that is that is related in literal language they're the same sort of language that uses the money so he's mean if entreated was there's no way I look at the text saying oh well that's us that's the story just to illustrate the Magnificent you see if this was if this was

addressing a people see much of the madness urs like these address a people that may have either being the Jewish people or people who were in contact with the Jewish people and the biblical kind of stories that they had now this Ocala the Mara all like as though the person who passed through a valley I'll a palliative and in the oh and you have in the Old Testament the valley of the bones if you read that in Ezekiel I believe it's Ezekiel it mentions it was a vision and those people would have known that because the value of the bone story in the Bible is

not a literal story it's it's about a vision that this person has and it's very similar to that bit that's being transmitted in in this surah about Oak Hill and it is as though and it begins with calf and as though and as though the one who part you know the one passes through a morality 18 passes by a settlement and so on and so forth and sees it desolate so I accept I accept that look for common preaching purposes you wouldn't have liked the other way of preaching flies I get that

because common people like stories this is what you know one of the purposes of stories are stories this one I think I'm not saying they're just stories you see now that's I'm not saying just I know these are stories but they're not just stories they are stories which are there for you to take lesson the lesson was not the the kind of science involved at the time it was not about like well you know was this it was not about trying to teach you biology or physics or chemistry it was about trying to say look there were

people before you and especially addressing the Jewish people on many occasions who already had this in the in the kind of history in saying look were your were your ancestors not already helped was God not already with you why are you turning away from this message this was the can I suppose the message for believers that God is with you he look at this story take kind of inspiration from me so taking inspiration is awesome but take taking kind of like scientific data from me I feel is like not what the purpose of the story was it's not it's not a purpose

but your denial of the truth value of that story the literal terms because of other reasons you know the wording of the of the ayah don't permit do that are you saying this event is likely event of the man we was resurrected for 100 years solid is like that event but that advert was real there's nothing in the Texas's not a veteran Rico not going to juice me I'm having there very sharp in the Toraja it was a vision but in the Quran is depicted as a real event

you see you see now that that is by the note that but right I was just bringing up the reference just to be sure it is Ezekiel yeah it is now the vision of the valley of dry bones is a prophecy in chapter 37 in the Book of Ezekiel and in in his vision the Prophet sees himself standing in the valley full of dry human bones and someone it goes on about walls he passes through this valley what he sees and so on now my point is that you see if the Quran is referring to it is

addressing the Israelites often by extension because they seem to be the scholarly class of the time it makes sense that they would have understood this reference to the Book of Ezekiel and things like this they would have probably understood that because they you know it's like if somebody today is addressing people and Muslims are in the background as well and they start saying things like moosa aleihsalaam like muslims would know or they say oh that and you know what about the one who was saved from the flood and muslims would have a frame of reference other people would as well but i'm just giving an example i think i mean this is i know

there's no definitive answers to i suppose these things there's just outlooks you know the way i suppose i see things the way maybe you see things other people see things there's no definitive i tip that i mean people will feel i just feel in this day and age this is actually even though to some people appears more dull they think that this might be a bit more dull and less dramatic let's say then some of the stories that first appear to be but I feel it saves the faith of believers in

a greater way because people today would feel that you know all these people who are suffering let's say people who are like I mentioned let's say they're in Gaza they're in these different places these people would feel that look why doesn't God come to save me like at the end of the day he saved the Israelites every single time they you know said ouch almost and like why why are we today like in whether it's in Iraq or in Syria in different places all these people suffering why doesn't God intervene and I feel that giving that

this my way of looking at things uh it kind of may at least resonate with so many people I feel I feel a lot one very much say you talk about now people nowadays might need insurance people at the time when the hold on is revealing the Sahaba they accepted these as miracles in they accepted watery these stories in the horn and the details for me says as not as being literal this is something impossible to

know because what we're trying to say is we know they've read the Quran the way we're reading it we know they understood these they would have understood the Quran as we understand it today would have they understood certain aspects metaphorically certain aspects symbolically certain aspects neurologically certain aspects literally that they never mentioned what how they understood things we would never know our lobbying lobbying the tradition of miracles and wearing a meeting if you didn't originate from the first generation we don't have a narrative from the earliest generation saying

these are stories for us to have solace in and to reassure us about God's power but we don't have the opposite either we don't have the seller over jinn we don't have the sob or not with established chains where they are saying oh by the way God breaks the laws of nature and he does this and he did these we don't history

disappeared where do I feel disappeared I did they did in the generality in Islamic history did the generality of Muslims their 30s don't believe in miracles the Prophet and the miracles are on who did they consider them to be stories and later on it changed I mean first of all we've not said any miracles of the Prophet we've not highlighted any and I mean I'm not sure which particular ones we're referring to like so when you say the miracles of the prophets alarmism so yeah but you've got the miracle you've got then remember we think he

gave a kind of weeping okay mechanisms now these kind of things like now you take this as an example I open up what Paul is quite early 300s for going I mean he he says that this this hadith of the water coming out of the fingertips of the prophets only transmitted really by Ernest and it's Mukhtar up you know in one occasion it's happening over here and one occasion is happening oh and how is it is happening with so many people and nobody transmits this event apart from anise rhodiola on the other thing is how can it be that according to

one narration if not a verse I think he claims that and this is and there's some issues with the chain but let's say there's a narration from even our bus that the Prophet you know think a water gushed out of his fingertips now according to this narration he says we were on the verge of death we were on the verge of death in the desert and and then eventually the Prophet said you know go to such and such place you'll find this woman traveling what eventually happens to have some vessels of water with her and they went and they see this lady and they take this water now when they bring it the the prophet puts his hands in in the water and as

they continue to drink they say that oh my god we all manage to drink from me now I don't deny that experience and I feel they may have all drunk from me but the fact that the water whether it actually increased or they felt it increased due to their thirst are two different issues if we feel the Prophet just had water coming out of his fingertips why first of all why don't take the water from the lady secondly why wait till they're on the verge of death right and thirdly there were so many other occasions that they were that they were dying of thirst because they lived in a desert yet the Prophet never provided the mortar this is all he had

to do the McCanns just asked for this they asked for water they said give us water will will believe that you're a prophet of God and yet the Prophet never did this do you think it was up to the person alongside him to decide when to always up to God to decide when he wished but now we're getting some detentions yes but now we're saying okay but God on some occasions will do it when you know he's gonna let you borderline die first of thirst and then he'll give it to you on that occasion but other occasions he's not gonna give it to you I mean

does that not make God sound cruel like what is it about kuehnemund why does God allow one child to be cured of a disease and a child in the next bed next to them to either side disease but I wasn't saying nothing god I would say once again God is already given people like people inherit DNA they inherit the ability to have a strong immune system or not that is then impact it's representing epigenetics with your surroundings nutrition of the relevants contribute to things like that it's not

God that's doing it but God has set laws in nature and given you an intellect to also be able to have interventions so it's not God that saying you know what I'm gonna make that child die and save this one because to me you're right that wouldn't sound fit that wouldn't sound it wouldn't make sense to somebody like me into many people but rather God has given us the parameters he's given us reason and then human beings make their own choices you know people have children children obviously people throughout their lives their DNA is being impacted they are then bequeathing this so yeah so I don't see that argument fitting the other one where God is deciding to give

water miraculously to be believing this ultimately well your objections complain to idleness know why God will do it here and wouldn't do it here you thought what they start no no no because I think God can't decide to do what he wants whenever he wishes to do it so if he's gonna give the water on that occasion let's go with the fact he's gonna give it on that occasion he's gonna give it anyway why not give it before they're on the verge of death why make them suffer and then give it for his reasons you're asking us to judge God's intentions but you're saying God is asking us to believe in him he is asking us to

ponder and believe is he not is he not saying look come to this faith if it makes something and if he is saying by the way this is how I behave and I don't believe God has ever said this but I'm just saying that if we go with this interpretation you saying oh by the way this is how I behave sometimes I'll do this if I feel like it but even when I feel like I'll make them suffer till the end and then I'll give it so they remember me and then on other occasions I won't give it anywhere what sort of tell for you know move throwing mud I think you're saying oh my now am I just

being real keeping it real that look let's just you know real talk is this not what so have not so many humans died of thirst they have countless human beings throughout humanity have died of thirst they've suffered till their death right now you know if God is gonna do this anyway like hey well I'm gonna do this anyway I'm just gonna make it appear like that then why not just make it appear and help the big why not if it's for faith when the Mekons asking the Quran they say or make a spring come out of here or make there be a river and a garden that's what we're asking and then Allah

says tell them are they crazy you know I can't perhaps knows they were not honestly requests that they were just simply just raising objections that white livery will like it free will if you're gonna pass the judgement anyway you know if you're gonna say well you know what you got free will haha but you haven't really because you know I'm not gonna even give you that opportunity because I know you're gonna pass up on it then why and why give it to I mean is this not know so if you're saying that look the Meccans the reason God never gave water to the Meccans

is because he knew they were rather than accepting the message and they wouldn't have believed in the message how do we know how do we know that they wouldn't have obviously God one could say well God would have known true but then in that case God without is just judging them without them even acting and that goes against free will what is the because you're saying that God would have may have give may have given them water if he knew they would bring faith but because if you do this

and God responds by the way is one that you know that are they crazy asking for such absurd things like how are you expected to do that how he expected to create a river in the middle of a desert that's what you know of the he says that what are they all about in the man of our children you know I'm just a human being how can I do this kind of stuff you asking me to bring this down from the sky or make a river Omega God sorry okay yeah I would ask you this thing you

notice about the moon no I just once I get into conversations I don't want to I know you know you're not a vampire like myself okay so that it says it was yeah I thought he was it was he was in response to a challenge from the Mekons and just on a Google obviously you know better than I do okay so element even better pontius what

evening movie I would jihad yeah say to the Protestants on if you truly our prophet that has been appointed by Allah and split the moon in half then it'd be such a way for one half up here over model for basically to have your mom and take ya till you happen then right on to the muffins let's say let's say first of all I don't believe that admiration to be authentic but let's say let's say let's go with it arguably that in front of the murkin's the moon was split to show so God is

not only contradicting the verse earlier when they asked him in Mecca that look why do you just make a river up here here why do you make there be a garden of fruits and and Allah saying to the Prophet tell them how am I supposed to do I'm just a human being right but now when they asked ten years later in Medina God does decide to do something but he does something which is useless like he splits a moon which can't benefit anyone well at least if he gave them water then you know they could drink from me but he split a moon so you're saying well what's the purpose of splitting a moon like what what actually happens when the moon is split like okay

let's say a star this is supernovae - no because the Mekons claim was that the publisher Allah Muslim sort of suits was possessed by jinn was essentially wasn't a prophet of God this is thirteen years later that is asking in Makkah they asked saying you you know you've you're you meant you possessed your suits say you're this you're that you're a magician and the Prophet is saying look I'm a Messenger of God so they say okay if you are a messenger

and the Quran quotes that if you are then can you do these things for us please if you are who you are can you make a garden appear of fruits and food can you make there be a refund they won't be insincere they won't be insincere just well how do you know they were being sincere okay so then later on what does God forget knocking maybe the maybe at that stage when it was they're taking up arms against a coffee yeah that will be the final clarification and this is this is

this is the truth you know final chance accept it or not as a main weapon after this being defeated many those who died but no but the fights after whether it's murder or held in a head it was like a drawer the Muslims never clearly won and in butter okay the Muslims did win but then once again what's that got to do with the moon because if you're saying because let me get this right if you're saying look the Mekons asked in Mecca for something that could actually be of value to them like water and food and God dicks God's response in the Quran is look with you're a human being you you know how can you make a river

come out of the desert now but then you say the real reason is because God knew they weren't can accept and we know they weren't can accept we accept that because later on history shows Muslim didn't embrace Islam now later on ten years later they ask again in Medina but this time God says well actually now I will show you you know you know what what the hell let's show you guys something but then shows them something which is completely non helpful to humanity like I know they have to be helpful why does it why does it really going to have to be helpful its purpose is simply to show God's power the main thing of murder has to do

with show that it's from God I like showing but then when they ask for a sign before when they actually asked for is the Quran says they are sorry but we said that the weapon since he at that time now they were sincere when they came to mind until the Prophet he was in was a final as it were seeing this is why God was saying well now I'm gonna give you the ultimate proof and this is like now you are once you see this proof you have to believe and yet they still don't believe so it wasn't that

compelling actually did anybody actually like so let me get this right and we're off the moon splits as us as the ultimate definitive proof of God on earth that they could see the moon splitting the Jewish people of Medina can see this the non Muslims of Medina can see this let's say I don't believe that the kuffara Croatia were there and this happened like that but let's say we go with that narrative the Kafar of Quraish can see and it's so compelling that nobody actually believes in God after that except those who are already

slim I mean is that not like just that he said not almost just is that I mean what I mean what is going on here you could say that this piston rule is a final confirmation upon them of course power and judgment he says almost like a judgment upon them but you are the enemies of God it was me also me I mean to be friends they already knew they were going to war against the Prophet you know they they already knew that things were pretty you know tense and

bad I mean the Kivar of Quraysh weren't on very kind terms with the Prophet and they you know so if God is giving them the ultimate this is the automating this is the fine you know once you see this this is it this is the bee's knees this is the ultimate once you see this and God shows it and nothing happens like everybody's like mmm and the Muslims who were already Muslim say oh yeah that's amazing but then the non-muslims go like well now nothing compelling here obviously wasn't that compelling I mean and if you're gonna say well they would have disbelieved that was the point of the Kofun but then the point of the coup

for God already knew that apparently because if we're going with that argument that in Makkah when they asked for rivers and Gardens God didn't give them because apparently he knew they wouldn't believe anyway so why go back on your way you'll soon Matt and now show them something that one is absolutely relevant for Humanity I mean splitting the moon does nothing for human beings - nobody really believed in it so in some ways that's to kind of show that God and that's actually a powerlessness because if God is that powerful then surely every people were

just how do you either well he was a plumber that's speaking about when creation comes to an end is that the hour when the hour has and even the moon that you're seeing in its majesty has kind of been torn asunder so I mean this is one continues if and if they see a miracle they turn away and say unless I see any ayah iodine is different yeah we say we turn

away and say passing magic so what is going on there why

wouldn't I have a Columbia passing magic in me it could be because for example the the Quran to them because of its higher weak resembled to their versions of shamans and the versions of soothsayers so they felt that this is why they call the Prophet a Sharia not as a today how we understand the word poly but I mean the point is that even if there were particular actions that did happen but those were let's say if we're trying to say a favorable outcome

is this one I'm not sure what the context to this particularly is but it's not it definitely doesn't say the word miracle it doesn't know you only do when your food is in Houston yeah yes yeah so I would understand this to mean one of two things either a sign or a verse like ayah you wouldn't be a verse in the Quran because we can see this ayah yeah even what a hero fair enough your ode can actually mean that something you know if you see a verse like you it

doesn't actually yell are in Arabic can mean yalom to be aware but even if we say a sign we see a sign now there could be signs I'm not saying look there's many signs that that people can take when the signs are no miracles yeah so let's something happen some some some sort of extraordinary event happens no I'll give you an example an example let's say the words of the Prophet impacting certain people now they see this and it could be a sign that looked like imagine they say to the Prophet Oh nobody's gonna listen to you nobody at

all and then some people start believing of what kind of starts believing this person starts believing now they see that well um this is a sign for them that the words are not meaningless but they will just say oh well now he's just leaning back on that shamanistic soothsayer kind of things that he's learned you know sarin Muslim it this is just part of his shaman practices now you see I don't think this verse is in every any evidence to say God intervenes by kind of interfering with his own laws let's let's not use the word interfere just a just stick with the idea that is

a miracle because it fits in with the logic of the I before the hour has come Mia and the moon has faith with us that's the miracle and then they see it and they turn away from you say okay okay let's say let's say to that how is it that this surah is mucky but the moon was pretty nice with some verses so the point is these all these short surahs

like this are all from makkah the people of medina were not saying things like oh look he's a magician and a soothsayer that wasn't the medina and discourse the medinan people were different tribes and the jewish and they're more learn it it was in Makkah that they were calling a profit of Charmin Charmin and soothsayer and things like this now these short rhythmic sewers that we have are usually are all mucky they're mucky sewers so in Makkah the moon has an even split if we're saying this has already happened but it doesn't you see in Arabic when we say oh this has happened it doesn't mean it means that

from God's perception the world creation has now it's like no I mean look in

Chaka it has been split we both agree is referring to the future so if we both agree that this is not referring to a past tense event that has actually happened it's referring to something to happen in the future we both agree on that if you say the whole saga open this other karma key that it refers to the future events so in a sense to connote certainty another thing is definitely no but look any surah that you know this

kind of talk rhetoric in the Quran Arabic is the final hour is upon us this has happened this this is all mucky in Medina the discourse wasn't like that it wasn't like you know this is happening our engine because this was a very at a fundamental level what we both agree upon is that this was speaking about an event that was yet to come okay so now you would say so you don't placing this event towards your mother Alma I had like a scrunchie straining I'm amazing this

event in a sense there's a monkey suit up and it's predicting what would happen in medina at the time sure but then that's fine you could say that that's fine well then I think but then I come back to that same question that that's fine but the moon split does God split this with a purpose and you say yes he does the purpose is to show that the Prophet is truthful no God Himself objects to it when the murkin's asked for it in the Quran God says tell them in a man a

portion of myth Lacombe I'm just a human being like you how do you expect me to do these things supernatural events but then later on you're saying or that reason that another reason was God was saying well even if I do it you're not gonna believe anyway and okay which was let's say we know now through history that they weren't gonna believe but then when they allegedly asked in Medina ten years later God says well actually now I am gonna show you my power but when they asked for something meaningful in Taylor why do you give us something food and water huh why do you say that was really for those those most successful miracles but this challenge

is how do you know they were sincere in why it's a wife's got responding to insincere challenges reality why see if the insincere why why respond to them but you say you did he split the moon that's my container he didn't yet because this is a final confirmation of their status as go far because if they didn't believe in it perfect now when this man is in spirit unto them they're

never going to meet this a ultimate challenge them so today enough of it okay and God knows they still ain't so they have no excuse now but wait I mean they've lost free will now okay okay so they do yeah okay but when they ask for the chance he never

gave it then when they asked for it but they asked for a sign like a miracle sorry asking about the idea

about challenging okay this is a final transfer we have ten years whether or

not if I trying to think this is last chance I have no I mean that's that's you know I guess what you're doing is asking I mean you asking me personally my expiration should justify this so so on this is not - you know honey is not to

kind of like put you on the I think the whole purpose of this dialogue was is really what it is is that we've had these kind of dialogues before as I have with other people as well and I just want I think it's it's a very honest and transparent dialogue that we've had even though like and the purpose was never and it wasn't like I wasn't thinking

well by the way was it to catch one it wasn't to necessarily convince you because I mean obviously I'm hoping to convince with my arguments but not necessarily thinking you're going to accept by the end of the dialogue all that I'm gonna necessarily accept what you're saying but just to be able to speak with transparency and just be honest and and kind of say well look doesn't this then make a problem and you and you've given answers and you know you said well doesn't that make a problem in your view because you know you're then saying and I've said well okay but doesn't this and because I feel

that this space to be able to have a transparent conversation on such matters of of faith when it's to do with God when it's to do with these topics has kind of become you know appropriate like people have kind of blocked it off with all these sectarian scaring and all this kind of like oh if you you're not allowed to speak like about these discussions or if they do it they never do it in allowing others to benefit from it so this I hope for people that have really tuned in I know we have gone on I hope it's been of some benefit for

people that come and watch this Mohamed Hanif is an amazing intellect and a mind that I seriously we've met up on a couple of occasions now and I thoroughly enjoy the kind of discussions with the back and forth and and I love the fact that in some that we don't agree but yet you still you know you you make your point still with you know using philosophical grounds using reasoning in its own way like you'll say well is then our problem there you know you're prying your morality here you're kind of falling in the same dilemma a different step and I love that because in many ways it makes

me go away and think about it I may argue makes me refine my arguments as it would probably make you refine some of your arguments and things like that and I think the fact that we can do this disagree but still be like you know what thank you man you know I still you know I love you for sharing the time that you know let's catch up again we can do this we can still do that even though it's a very in some ways a very sensitive Islamic topic obviously the power God's intervention with his creation the nature of miracles and I think that's really what I I wanted to achieve we've

definitely achieved that Muhammed Hanif is available for on on social media for people who do want to get in touch with him is that okay can they contact you I have tagged him in to my last post so no actually sorry I try to tag you for some reason it wouldn't tag but you're on Facebook as Mohammed Hanif as I've kind of written on my post and I think the profile picture is a flag is the weaker flag so yeah we the kind of turquoise background and the crescent and star are

you on Instagram as well I've not seen you on Instagram but yeah and by the way we never got to get we never managed to reach the aspect of Hanif's poetry or his art incredible passion ears in that as well and we did also want to discuss maybe another day the aspects of things like maybe misogyny that has been transmitted within our heritage I know we've had some amazing discussions on that as well that you know they a lot of our you and you feel quite strongly about that as well as an i from what i've understood that and in fact you know you just think

today that maybe because this tradition a lot of it has been written by men and therefore it's really just had the I don't know what we call it the the male privilege is it or I don't I don't know what to call it but the male yeah so it's really and we've had some fascinating discussions on that on things like in which we're absolutely in sync on on that we kind of agree with each other the whole thing of Nakazato local for example you know lacking intellect women lacking intellect that that's nonsensical the angels cursing women until and we've had a very good discussion on that as well that that's

really nonsensical and inshallah on another day maybe we can have that but people do reach out to an ephah specially share you know if you're interesting philosophical stuff and much love for really tuning in staying through all of this discourse dialogue tonight I do feel that even though it's it was quite lengthy but in shall live thoroughly enjoyed it I read a comment on here somebody saying if I think something about all Mufti you know and look too happy or something like that I'm thoroughly happy honestly even

though you know when I discuss like they were thinking I read some comment it's gone up now I can't find it but they they felt it that maybe I was kind of like and because I'm serious and I suppose they're not used to me he used to see me serious they probably think oh my god is he upset I actually I mean you you spoken with the conversation gets amazingly tense doesn't it and it's very friendly still at its underlying nature but in the nature of the discourses will be tense and discuss and we go on for hours sometimes so have we not so it's all it's all good there's none of that

kind of thing and once again of stars and Eve sugar and sharing us tonight people sharing with us you know all your insights tonight people sugar and once again much love I'm gonna put up my final page for you to like subscribe share get it out there people get this kind of list let's keep it real you understand hashtag keep it real have real discussions that of course please first of all thank you very much for inviting me on it was a shock the listener project when you texted me

there's a shar-pei analysis there was a two minds whether to come on or not because I'm not a chef I haven't studies Islamic studies with energy you to a great debt so I'm hoping he's everything this thing watching I haven't disappointed them how has it been okay I mean now that we've had the discourse for a few boys a couple of hours now I mean you were hesitant you said coming on what's your after thoughts putting you on the spot it was prior what I've met you before we could

just have a conversation our topics essentially having revolved around these these these aspects these these topics this is what we talked about we're sort of we had these arguments a putana and perhaps I need to do a bit more reading we all I'd like you to do a lot more reading on research

people much love over and putting out my page