Ustadh Sharghzadeh | Rumi, Sa'di & Realizing Spirituality | MindTrap#62 | Mufti Abu Layth

[Music] Alhamdulillah people. this profile picture that you can see today's guest is Shahak Zad who is a lecturer in Persian poetics a incredibly learned ad on the legacy of

on the legacy of Molana Jalalatin uh Arumi and also many other epic poets and some of those we're going to focus on today. I'm just going to bring in our guest on where is our guest Allah. How are you? I think u and Persian are are akin you know they don't have the same grammar of course but there's so many shared words that it can be very easy to learn very quickly.

I mean I knew one Pakistani gentleman who uh his actually his last name is Bkari. So you see he's from central Asia and then he ends up you know it just speaks to the diversity of the Muslim world. He ends up in uh in Pakistan and he uh lived in Iran for 6 months to learn Persian and it only took him 6 months. So after he learned it in 6 months he you know returned home and uh he had that skill in his belt and I know a few other gentlemen who are Uru uh speakers as a native language and they learned Persian quite quickly.

One thing I'll note though is that not all languages have the same essence, right? the Johar or the gohar as we would say is different. So although we speak different languages we kind of end up usually meaning the same thing. So when an Arab and this is a perfect example of this when I was learning Arabic when an Arabic class the teacher would say I immediately thought oh we say that in Persian they didn't need to explain the essence or the the the heart you know I understood it I just needed to know what it the translation but many English speakers would say oh the crown of my head what does that mean why is that special thing and to that end I actually want to read you a poem that I wrote

that's about this so you said we'll have a nightlight of poetry let's go for it so I said, "Oh, Persian is soul and Turkish is heart and Arabic's eloquence. Erdo is the flame. Our tongues are diverse, but they're not apart. The bodies vary. The soul is the same." So, I say that uh Ordo, Arabic, Persian, it's like different basically hearts and different the same heart and different bodies we can say, right?

So, when I say habibi, you know, you guys, I don't know what you would say actually, but we would say Azizam. It's kind of the same idea, my dear. you know ideas exactly in Bollywood it's there's so many words from that are and are used in um in in in I mean they've been popularized like aism I think people would understand in udu they clearly understand what you're saying but uh but a lot of those like janam is such a common word when you think about it in all the songs and in fact you have certain songs of Bollywood where they just you know like

this nami danam this was like a shahuhan track and the whole thing and people I guess they don't understand or they I guess maybe they think it yeah they know it's far but but these words are and all these exact yeah yeah so yeah it's almost like um actually was explaining this to someone I was reading the messnavian translation with someone just to kind of introduce the text and in the introduction jave mujad that he said, "I've I've italized the Arabic words that are in the text." So the masti might go 10 Persian lines and one Arabic line.

So in the English text, he italicized the Arabic lines so that the reader knows what is Arabic in the original text. What's a Quran quote? What's a hadith? Then there was some Arabic things that weren't italicized. So the student who was an Arab said, "Wait a minute. How come some things in Arabic aren't italicized?" And I said, "That's because to us that's not Arabic. We use that so commonly that it feels Persian to us, right?

So there are some phrases and words like ya, alhamdulillah, you know, you know, things like we say bazir, you got to say bazir, they're so commonly used as you say as slightly different. We we don't see it as I do love the Iranian accent over the other I I do love that. I I think that's it sounds proper sleek, I think. I appreciate.

Thank you. And but in the same way when Turks and and Uru speakers and Pakistanis and Indians say John, no one thinks, "Oh, this is a foreign word." It feels very personal to them, right? Interconnected. There's a there's a Bollywood song actually which is quite old but it's based on Amir Kasro's I believe it's Amir Khasarro's uh uh poetry which I mean we're talking almost 6 700 years ago in India where he's got the first line of the stanza of the b in far and the second one in his version of what you couldn't say udu because this predates udu but it was their kind of karibi it was their lingo

and so he'll say Um, and that's maful but the and they changed and they changed it slightly in the Bollywood song uh mskin makumish that's what they turned it into but he has uh and then he'll have the second line in his version of which will be similar to kind of uduish and and I think that's it's just so amazing how that's then six 700 years later.

It's part of a Bollywood track. Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. Yeah. I don't know. It's It's fascinating because it kind of speaks to how amazing these people were. The fact that they can write I mean, how many people can write poetry in in one language, let alone switch between I mean there's some roomie poems that go Turkish, Persian, Greek, Persian, Arabic, Persian. Um they just so effortlessly switch between languages. And it just speaks to, you know, how bilingual triilingual I mean nowadays it's funny in the modern world it's kind of sad being bilingual is considered cool especially in America Canada you say bilingual they say oh wow you know sweet you're wow what language but back then three four maybe some people in India and Pakistan are still

like this because they know Punjabi or do English maybe they becomes four or five but in most countries in the world people don't really you go to Turkey you know America you don't meet people who speak five languages here and there on the street but uh back then it was very common and Yeah. Yeah. And it's amazing. I was reading up that see something people um underestimate is how widespread Persian was especially several centuries back and especially in places like if you're looking at uh I was reading up that you had um maybe I

can't several let's say 15 million Farsy speakers around what would be the modern day Iran region that kind of near east but they were saying somewhere near 100 million speaking Farsy in India at the time that it was especially under the Mughals and even prior to the Mughals but just it was like the language and a lot of them they they owned it as their own language you know they felt that absolutely and wrote poetry in it so there's a very interesting book I'm just sorry really quick um I think it's called Persianite Selves by Mia Kana or K I don't know if I'm saying her name wrong I think she's a Persian or maybe South Asian professor in America and she

wrote about how Persian identity used to be transnational. So people from South Asia, Turkey, Iran, they would all call themselves Persian because they love the Persian language and culture. It wasn't like nowadays where it's turned into a race where if you say I'm Persian, that means I'm from a very particular country or ethnic group, etc. So there was this transnational thing. Do they say, by the way, this is a slight um I don't know if it's a political question.

Are they allowed to say Persian today? In uh where in Iran or in Iran and Yeah. So in Iran being Persian is normal, but I'll say in some countries in Central Asia there it's kind of a taboo to call yourself Persian. So Tajikistan they speak Persian there. And it was designed as the Persian Central Asian country. But in the sense that is it is it made a point that we don't call it Persian, we call it Farsy.

Oh, in terms of the language. Okay. because of the the link to the Persian, you know, the the heritage thing. Yeah. Persian is the word in English, right? Kind of like you said Spanish. I mean, I know you study Spanish, but Farsy is kind of like espanol. It's the word from the language. But I think because of Iranians who live in Western countries and they say Farsy, this kind of became more popular than Persian to say Fars. I thought it was a a conscious decision to kind of distinguish from the the the Persian sha and the whole you know that that and now the new republic and so we're going to consciously call it Farsy and not call it Persian anymore.

But I mean this was just the impression I you know over the years but it it could be I don't know I think um a lot of these decisions as to what a country or language is named are are politically motivated. It's possible. I mean the fact that we're called Iran instead of Persia was politically motivated. You know the any ethnic group's name like a lot of times for example in Afghanistan they don't like calling Persian Persian they like to call it daddy daddy and there's some political reasoning you know behind that but one interesting thing just to go back to something you said that there was more Persian in South Asia especially during the the heyday of the Mogul Empire there was a moment where the Moguls were very rich and Iran was getting poor.

So there was actually more funding for Persian poetry in India. So in that era you see more poetry in India than in Iran or in you know modern Turkey and the Ottomans and that that's actually fascinating. I think this is a bit of a random one and then I'd like to you know dive deeper into about the great legacy of uh Molana Roomi and and Shirazi as well but I was going to say as a side question the Farsy of India back then um and I know I'm not saying you necessarily specialize in the history of that but what I've heard is it would it have been

closer to the the Dari kind of accent today. That's that's what it would have possibly sounded like. And yeah, as opposed to the Iranian uh kind of accent. Correct about that. And you know the Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. Cuz I was going to say this Iranian accent, is this modern or has this been since time? Yeah. Yeah. This is modern. This is actually recent. So Iranians used to speak the way that Dary speakers and the way that people in South Asia did.

But I think because of the influence of Turk languages, we we changed some letters. So in uh in South Asian and Afghan Persian, they differentiate between and right. We in Iran don't do that. We pronounce them both the same. We also have lost a couple other kind of particular sounds. Like there's a certain Y sound that's lighter than the heavier Y. So for example, you guys would say beada, but we would say bchada.

We kind of drag the Y more. Yeah, instead of ba, we say bich. Instead of bay nazir, we say b nazir. And someone actually commented this and I' like to maybe I guess get to some of them. Haram people are are commenting saying, "Is there a particular type of Persian to learn to understand classical poetry?" I would say formal Persian. There's no accent in formal Persian. It's all the written language is all the same. I wonder if you know what you're saying about the yah.

I wonder if that has influenced in Udu when you're learning the alphabet they say two yas. So, you know, they say like uh they'll say like obviously like a stretched Yeah. And and but they'll write it differently like the yah and the yah but and then you I've seen that. I've seen that. Yeah. And so but the the understanding I get why they do that is to say one could mean e and one could mean e like as in that I think that is so but I was wondering maybe there was some inspiration from the fary origin then they could I think that's yeah so it's called y

majul so it's like the unclear why it could be a deep y or it could be a light y so in some accents the word for table is mis and other ones it's maze yeah like in we would say maze yeah exact Exactly. So, it's slight it's maj. It's unclear. It could be and it varies from accent to accent. You know, you could never be 100% sure. And I I love that sound. It's such a such a cute little like a short Y sound.

Someone says, "So, which accent is the oldest?" The the daddy one, the one spoken. So, this is quite recent then. It sounds quite Europeanized almost the current Iranian. Uh it does have that kind of twang to it. That kind of European twang. Yeah, we're very influenced by them. Yeah, we use a lot of French words in Iranian Farsy. We don't say tashakur or shakria. We say merci. We say mercy.

Oh, we use a lot. Yeah, we parardone is not said but we say abajour for lamp for example. We use many French words. Machine for car. Um machine. Many such words. For car. Wow. It's for French. Yeah. Mhm. I'm impressed. Wow. And somebody said yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the one. Yep. and chukran chukran of course people.

So speaking of far and the legends of this legacy mhm and some of them leap right out at us and uh today we'd like to kind of focus in just zone in on two legends and that is molana jaludina and si airazi. So why these two and what makes them so special to you and to people by extension?

What's that? Sure. So I'll say that they're they're two of the most beloved Persian poets. So aside from Hoffz Amir Hosro and a few other people, I think these guys you could really say that I mean maybe they're as good as those ones, but I think to a lot of people these are the two favorites, you know, the the two most beloved. And I found it interesting that they both lived at the same time, but they lived very, you know, different lives in a way.

Roomie was kind of a very deep serious Sufi. Sadi was kind of more of like this kind of wise old man who had some jokes and tricks up his sleeve. Okay. And Roomie's style is is kind of has a lot of deep spiritual metaphors and kind of leads you pondering. And Sadi has a lot of quips and jokes and and tales and anecdotes and life advice and uh they're just generally interesting, you know, figures to study. You can gain so much wisdom if if you only had to learn from two people in the world and you learned from these two, you would be set definitely for life.

Balancing the worldly advice of Sadi and the spiritual, you know, experiences of Okay. So, take navigator us through their journey. So, we've got uh molana where does his journey begin and where does it kind of take him? Sure. Sure. So, he's born in a ba in a village that would be near Bal. So, kind of considered, you know, culturally part of Bal. Yeah. Exactly. in modern day Afghanistan and uh he's living there and his father is part of kind of the ama class the alam class you know such as yourself the learned the people learned in the religion and uh a couple things happens um he doesn't really have that much luck finding himself a stable position in bal so they

send him to to teach in a village which is kind of like you know not the greatest position when you want to be teaching in the capital city and he also senses that instability is coming from the Mongols this is father by the way. Wow. Uh I should I should say I don't think I said that. So Roomy's father realizes that it's probably time to go. He picks up Room and his family and they migrate westward. So from all the way, you know, central Asia and B and the way eastern part of Afghanistan today coming down into Kurasan to eastern Iran like Mashad then going all the way down they did Hajj.

Then they go up to Syria and then they end up in conia in what was called then Rome which means Rome. Yeah. And we don't mean the city Rome. We mean the Roman Empire because it was the eastern most end and this is what you know when the Quran says that you know Rome Rome is victorious right in the surah room this is the room that they're talking about the yeah the the Roman Empire so goes there and this is why he's called in English and this this particular is that is that how we're pronouncing it how how do you pronounce it co so this this was specifically referred to as room or by extension are you saying the just the the area was

referred to as room but it was the capital of the Seljuk Sultanate in what was called R and at the now is you know a minor city in in Turkey like the fifth or something city it's got a million people in it at the time it was the capital and what was so interesting is that it was a Christian city so the name is Greek and when Roomie lived there the majority of the residents were Christians they were Assyrians Armenians Greek there were Kurds there were Arabs it was a very diverse place and this kind of opened up room's lens to you know many uh different types of ethnicities and ideas and worldviews.

So room and he he writes about Indians being there as well. So maybe they were traitors or maybe they live there. So he knew about Hinduism and different types of Christianity and different types of Islam and you know all kinds of worldviews. There were even Turks who weren't Muslim still who were pagans. So he knew about all kinds of you know tongues and worldviews and this is why he writes in Greek and in Arabic and in Persian and in Turkish because he's aware of uh and this kind of opens up his worldview right so um you know Roomie has and I guess I could pull it up this is one of the the benefits of uh talking about um you know talking on the computer uh let's see he has this

beautiful uh this beautiful poem that kind of encapsulates his wisdom about these things. where he says so he says speaking the same language is like a connection it connects you to someone right a man who's stuck with people who don't speak his language feels like a slave right so so first of all he kind of creates this idea that language is very important but then he flips say that poem again sure he says

Okay. So the same kind of language. Yeah. Okay. Speaking the same language. So it joins a person with a haram. Did it use the word to mean a separate? Yeah. So he says if you're with you feel like you're enslaved. You have nothing to say to them. But then he flips it around. He says, but then he says there's many Indians and Turks who speak the same language and there's many Turks who don't speak the same language is obviously like a stranger like yeah exactly what is he talking about?

Then he explains he says so he says the tongue of being a of being an intimate is a different language. It's not the tongue the language of the tongue that we just utter sounds. And then he says having the same heart is better than just sharing the same superficial language.

Right? So then he says so then he says without speaking without making motions and without writing a thousand translations emerge from the heart. Wow. So he's getting at this deep wisdom. He's saying language is important but not that superficial language right?

That deeper language that's in the heart that's not spoken through words. Do you ever have that moment where you meet someone when you're traveling? Maybe an old taxi driver and you can't speak to each other, but just through kind of small like emotional things, you almost have a conversation. That's the conversation of the heart that Roomie talks about. And I think that it was through living in a very diverse place that he was able to come to this wisdom if that makes sense.

Yeah. No, absolutely. Wow. Okay. And so so so that's his uh he he's come to to room and this is you know he's kind of growing up there just pausing him for a moment what about his kind of journey beginning and his beginnings and and as he kind of starts to sure to emerge. Yeah.

So Sadi is born in Shir and we don't know exactly when either of them were born probably like within a couple years of each other. So they're basically, you know, the same exact generation. And as you said the this is like in the common this is like the 13th kind of centuries 1200 early 1200. Yeah. 12 or 7 something like that. It's important to note that was a very unstable time in the Muslim world. The Mongols were ravaging destroying cities.

I mean we think about the Muslim world today. It was worse then. Think about entire cities burned everything. The whole library everyone killed all the women taken to sla as to slavery. like the worst possible things were happening. Baghdad eventually destroyed, sacked, burned. the Mongols come in, you know, it's interesting because you see Baghdad being ransacked, just on a side note for people, it's not just a city being ransacked in that sense that it was such it was so in the heartland of uh of just Muslim lands

that this was in its sense unprecedented. Absolutely. It was so secure. I mean people had taken over Baghdad amongst themselves like Muslims had taken over. They had been you know rioting there. These things had happened but for a foreign entity to come into the heart of it was just unimaginable because it was so securely nested and rested in within Muslim territory that for foreigners it's almost like aliens coming.

I mean how and for this to have happened and then with such devastation. Mhm. It really shook the core the very existential core of of Muslims right throughout the entire world. Yeah. No absolutely it was um it was just a tragedy that we can't even maybe comprehend now. So Sadi and Roomie both are are raised in this environment and I think it was through that tragedy through that darkness that their newer was able to shine.

It's you know through the concrete a rose grew like if to use a modern metaphor. It was in that turmoil that death that destruction that made them look away from the dunya and look towards kind of deeper truths to to kind of search in the heart. And so Sadi is raised in Shir and his father dies uh dies when he's young maybe about 10 years old. It seems like he was a young kid but he shows a lot of promise and he was probably from a good you know wellto-do background.

So they send him to study in Nisam and there he studies uh with the the scholars. I mean he studies with the grandson of Josie you know the very famous one. He studies with students of he's you know gets a good education and it's interesting he has a combination that doesn't exist anymore. He had but which is you wouldn't find anyone like that these days usually.

This is this is okay. Wow. Okay. But he was Bashar in theology. It's when I was reading that I was like, "Oh, that's interesting. You don't meet anyone like that." Strange. You know, you say that, but the other Josie is very much like that as well. I mean, not Josia, but Josie and and you do get some of those like who's very kind of anti but very passionate about humble humbly.

But yeah, but sorry, going back. I mean, no way. It just makes me think, can we get some of these old school Hanbali's back? Uh, every time I think Hanbali, I think of you put the napkin on the head. Put out more of this love poetry and you got to melt the hearts. That's what you got to do. Anyway, so so sadi studies and uh he spent some time in Baghdad. He becomes very fluent in Arabic. Uh the Persian poets would write poetry in Turkish, Persian, Persian, etc.

or Arabic. I repeated Persian. uh but his Arabic poetry is excellent. It's very good. Arabs even read it uh like roomy lesser to a lesser extent but Saudi poet have showed it to Arabs and and they appreciated his skill. I mean he really perfected the the science of the Arabic language and after a while he starts to wander and it's not clear if it's because of the invasion of Baghdad but he actually he has a beautiful uh poem that that I'll inshallah read in a bit.

I need to first pull it up um about actually the the destruction of Baghdad. Wow. But uh what's amazing is that through his travels, he kind of basically acquires kind of the same worldly wisdom as Roomie, but he doesn't take it from a spiritual angle. He kind of looks at it more from kind of a wit and wisdom, you know, telling you the best way to live your life. So, you know, you travel and you see stupid people do stupid things, you learn wisdom. You know, you see someone get robbed and he annoys the robber and he gets killed and, you know, he tells you some uh story.

But he has a really beautiful uh couplet in Arabic from a longer about the destruction of um uh of Baghdad and you know I'll send it to you in uh in in the in the chat in the stream just so maybe you could correct my pronunciation or look at it but it goes something like Such a beautiful poetry, you know, and written by a Persian.

It gives us pride. And he says something like, "Though I can find my tears so they don't flow, when water floods past eyelids, it will go." Wow. Love the translation. Thank you. Baghdad's breeze following its destruction. I wish that over my grave it would blow. So he's saying, "Oh, tamu. I wish that the breeze of Baghdad would blow over my grave one day. Wow.

So he was deeply just can sense the lament. And he has another poem. It's like you know the the caiff that was killed by by the Mongols. And uh you know he spends decades wandering in North Africa and Egypt and modern day Syria, Lebanon, modern day Turkey. Some say he he writes about going to India to uh Turkiststan where we'd call Shing Jang today in western China where the oilers are.

So he I mean we we should take this with a grain of salt. They say he exaggerated a little bit but he was a welltraveled person. We can we can more or less say that and this has produced this worldly wisdom that he's imparted. Are they saying that he couldn't provide receipts for all his travels? Something something to that account. the accounting department said we didn't get all the receipts but so yeah and Sadi is known as being a great love poet so aside from his and I I said maybe we'd read some of his wisdoms later he has some books of of just straight wisdom and I've actually taught a course it's public on YouTube on one of them the pan nome p a n d n a

m a taught it and it's on YouTube just for free what's what's pan in panama pand means wisdom in n means like book of wisdoms Right. So he wrote a lot of love poems. He's very famous as a love poet. Writes beautiful love poetry. He's very very famous love poet. I mean just kind of some would say you know without equal. Okay. Any wow. Any of his any of his own uh love stories in in that or does he are they Yeah.

Yeah. Definitely. Actually he he writes um in the go in his serious works where he gives uh you know quote unquote advice and spiritual advice and all that. He writes about how he's upset that people don't take him seriously that they say that he's not a serious you know like a serious sheh or something like that that he writes a lot about you know and he writes a lot of I'm sure that's a lot of deja vu for for many scholars chefs and imams and people are like people like just pick a ticket and get in line everybody it's the same story everywhere no he writes um he writes for example uh you know he writes that um if my love

were to be exposed, I would be I would be executed and my lover wouldn't care. I mean, the the punishment the punishment was uh was there. I mean, he has one where um he says, so he says the chains and locks in a lover's trust, traps of trouble lie there.

Those outside of this circle are unaware of this affair. So in the hair of a lover, there's traps of trouble, right? But the people who aren't in our circle, they don't know what's what's going on. Wow. So he says, so he's saying if they slice me with a blade and he cares not to bat an eye, just a glance from him is blood money for a hundred like I.

So the idea is he's going to get executed, right? But you can pay for someone's life. You can save his life. Just one glance would be enough to pay off, you know, Sadi's blood, money. He's so infatuated and in love with this uh figure, this mysterious figure. Wow. Okay. That's and and Sadi his his works which are incredibly popular. Tell us a bit about the bit about that. Sure. Sure.

Yeah. So he writes the the the part of the poetry that I was reading. It's called his dvon which are all gazels. They're all 10 to 15 kind of line poems and they're all love poems. He writes them all and they get they make him quite famous. They're very famous and he writes that sometimes when he goes to places the people who are there know about him but what's so beautiful about this you know before social media they didn't know what he looked like or who he was as a person they had just heard of his poems.

So he writes actually somewhere that he went somewhere and that someone kind of rebuffed him that maybe he needed help and they didn't help him and he saw that someone was read that person was reading his poem that his poetry was so famous. So when he was going to leave that city word had spread that oh my god this is that guy. So the guy went to him and said hey I'm sorry I didn't know you were sadi I like your poetry. So just to give you an idea of you know how famous he had become.

Wow. And when he returns to his city, his ruling family, the people that, you know, his government that paid for his uh, you know, his stipen to go study in Iraq, he needs to get on their good ends because they wonder, "Where'd you go, kid? You've been gone for about, you know, 40 or 50 years. Whatever happened to you?" And uh, they're like, they're like, "We know you've been using our credit card all these decades, but can you justify some of this spending for the love of God, please?" Yeah.

Yeah. So he gets there and uh he basically needs to get in their good graces. So he writes a very large book called the Booan which is this very serious kind of full of stories that they're designed to impart advices you know tells talks about the essence of Islam how to be a good person how to help people etc live out the faith and then after that he writes a much shorter book but actually more famous than the earlier one called the Golistan the Golistan is is full of small short uh anecdotes.

So, one of them, they could be as short as a sentence. One of them could literally be, "The Quran was not sent down for the beautifification of voices. It was sent down for the beautifification of behavior." Wow. A short sentence with so much meaning. His idea is it doesn't matter if your if your talawat is perfect if you're a bad person, right? The more important part of the Quran is to beautify your character through it. Not just that. I mean now we have subhan Allah it almost has onetoone connection to now we had a famous Quran reciter was outed as an abuser right I think that would apply directly to that situation who cares if his talawat is incredible right I mean look at who he is as a person

you know what's interesting on that word alone is the the term used in Arabic it comes from the root of jud and jawad making something this kind making something good by giving. you know this whole and obviously this wasn't used in in the time of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam but used after Muslims came up with the term and and it just fits so well here that it's not actually even though sure of course you are doing this giving this kind of so generously to um the letters of the

Quran the but in essence it's about the message isn't it the of Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. It is about the message. Yeah. Yeah. So, this is kind of the core. This is what Tasaw is trying to get at. The idea is that you should get at the core of the message of Islam, of the Quran, not just get caught on the exterior elements. Right. So, there's another um Sufi verse, I'll just kind of paraphrase it in English.

And um it goes something like the the wine house, the pier, the sheh of the Sufi, you know, gathering place. It's a synonym for that. He wiped away all our sins, right? He made it so that we're sinless. We have no more sins. He's perfected our character. But the im of Yeah. The Imam of the masid is stuck worrying about the of the It's okay. It's good. Don't get us wrong. People maybe would clip this repetition.

It's No, not at all. It's You see, people are coming from I say often that look, people are coming from a place of love. It's just misplaced. Mhm. You know, it's like they are people who are very caught up in it is a love for but it's but they're still at the at the shallow end. They haven't got in. It's actually about the meaning but they they're trying to beautify the words and the letters and get everything make you know have a science but yes of course.

Yeah. Yeah. So and and again just so people don't take this the wrong way of course it's important to have proper like if someone who can say it of course some people have you know different languages but if I see someone saying I'll encourage them to say but that's not the the most important part the important part is that they actually don't become one of the right so if you're one of the but you say perfectly what's the point you know is that going to save you from anything when you're taken to account wow so this is kind of the essence of these uh these you know these Sufi kind of ideas these texts is to get at the very core of the meaning of Islam you know the very base of it what is Islam all

about not just these external things and I think it's important because nowadays as well one thing to consider all of the debates about Islam are settled everything the Asharis had to say about the the said it everything the Shia had to say the Sufis it's been said 10 times but back then these were hot debates people were getting killed over these things so these guys were seeing all these in madras in schools debating debating debating debating and they were saying what's the point of all this so who cares if the mul did did that help your dean and to this end actually and I'll pull this up it'll take me a second there's a very famous uh uh poet named

sheh bahi who and actually speaks to the internationalness of our culture he is actually born in modern day Lebanon but he ended up living in Iran and so he became a Persian poet so to speak you know he wrote most of his work in Persian and uh he had this very beautiful uh poem that I was reading and it just struck me and it really spoke to my experience. He said, So he's saying I spent

a lifetime or I'll read the translation I did in these mudra says I did dwell I raised subtleties with scholars as well a precept that had a scent of ish never did I hear any teacher tell so maybe you can speak to this because you've been to the madar mah they spent all these times talking about does Allah have Does he have a macan? You know, do you supposed to do saddle or not do saddle?

Or, you know, is this the best or that the best or is mid allowed or not? But where's the love? Where's the ish? you know and you know you you've mentioned like the the banan or the gulan of sadi and think from lessons from this or extracts were part and parcel of a traditional kind of madar system where they taught the stories of what is saying which are it's it's not about sometimes the story it's not about the content it's the flavor You see these people, these

mystic scholarly poets, they are on a different bandwidth, a different kind of wavelength, frequency. It's very different to your traditional kind of kadi kind of wavelength and and and that impacts the nuance of Islam that you pick up. But in recent decades, I'm just saying I sure I mean people have their reasons.

I'm not trying to this isn't necessarily I'm not trying to put it as a criticism. I'm trying to put it as an observation that these things have been extracted from the curriculum. You know people have removed they've removed you you wouldn't find it now generally speaking in most madaris let's say in Pakistan or in in pack they would have removed stuff like this from the curriculum and one could argue that I mean they could argue that we did that to simplify um but then they still have things like for example uh a lot of books of mik which most people never understand

you know they'll like loads of uh books upon tears of mantik and um and logic but in I I mean in the old old sense which nobody gets but it's yeah it's just a nuance isn't it because these stories and surely and I'd love that if you know to to kind of unpack some of them but these stories that sadi kind of embarks on um the these wisdoms or what malana jaluti kind of shares they are quite anecdotal they quite it's not the same it's not cut from the same cloth of

teaching let's say orul or teaching uh Quran was sunnah but the the meaning here is very powerful still yeah I just wanted to definitely no I think one thing you mentioned that they've been taken from the very true and it's a big tragedy I think this is I mean I think the madrasa system the hosa madrasa you know whatever tradition you hail from it's kind of a mess right now really in all countries and it's something that I think it needs a full overhaul and at least because you know we need to train people who are academically you know intellectually ready to deal with modernity you know you have mufties and llamas who you know they get asked

questions from modern doubts they don't even know how to answer the question we were way lagged behind I mean it's like a it's like a skeleton almost these these traditional learning institutions you know for for the worse of course but not only have is it a skeleton it's a shell of its past self at At least in the past they used to read these texts like bustan golastan. had many people from Turkey, from South Asia who say my grandparents when they studied in the ma system they read bust goostan paname masnavi in fact you couldn't even graduate if you hadn't looked at these texts that was considered like a requirement to go but when you go to these countries today in Pakistan and Turkey Persian has been removed from the curriculum in you know 70s60s you know at some decade they always for some

reason some leader decides to just you know this is not necessary anymore let's get rid of it but what happens is when you have a lot of people we always say that Sharia And the path of Sufism and the outer Islamic law are like a kernel in a shell, right? So if you have a shell, a pistachio that has no kernel, well that's useless. But if you have a pistachio with no shell, it'll rot. It will get destroyed, right? Or it's like a bird you could say with two wings or ship and water.

They need each other, right? So when you have no no internal spiritual element, no core and you just teach people the the external things memorize you know and memorize all what the Quran tells you and all that which all that is good and it has its own place you respect it definitely no problem but when you have no balancing weight with the deeper spiritual elements you just get a bunch of people who are just focused on the external things you know what I mean and and I feel that you see one of the things that I've come to appreciate in I I would admittedly say in more recent times and I did not truly I don't think I

truly grasped it previously was the value of these things of this whole field as in terms of like from a uh psychosocial perspective I think I I didn't appreciate how it taps into symbols and archetypes that the common folk share like when u let's say molana jaludini is in his mn he's sharing stories when or whether wisdoms that are being shared by sheh sadi uh these things these

stories for example they may be about let's say there's a love story so Jalaladi is speaking about there's a king and he's fallen in love with this maid and and you know she and he wants some cure and he's she's told she's got a disease and the doctor says, "Well, he diagnoses the disease and the disease is love." And the and every Isn't that beautiful?

And it is. And and they'll say, "Well, you see, and and okay, that's at one layer, but then they will take it deeper in symbols that they'll say, well, everything in this dunya, it has a an anti- dot to it or it has a counterpart, an antiart, an anti- essence. So, and that's even in science today whether it's going to be matter or antimatter and all these kind of particles will have antiparticles and he says well every thing is cured by its opposite.

Mhm. Except love. There is no opposite. Yeah. Yeah. And it's cured by itself. like it is by its only essence that it is and this then is symbolic of the of the divine because Allah is the one thing that there is no anti- god. Yeah. Yeah. there. No, there's a very beautiful there's a very beautiful poem and uh I just I wish I had uh you know these just these ideas just come up and you can never plan it before but there's a very beautiful um bait from the first book.

It's a couplet I should say in English from the first book of the massi that you're that you're referring to and uh it goes which means by opposites what's hidden is revealed. God has no opposite. So he's concealed, right? So things are revealed by their opposite. Repeat that again. Sorry for us.

Repeat that again. Wow. By opposites, what's hidden is revealed. God has no opposite, so he's concealed. Yeah. So a lot of times we make the mistake I think in um in uh you know Muslims is that they make this mistake of thinking that like Christians uh not even really in Christianity but the way that it's kind of shown in movies and TV shows which is that uh you know that hell is like this this evil abode that you're banished to that's ruled by Satan and Satan is like this counterweight to God you know that God and Satan are like

equal nemesis but Islam is not like that right the sat Satan is just you know he's like a lowly figure compared to God it's not like they show in cartoons when Satan is a one guy and God is one guy. So it's not like God's opposite is Satan or something. He has no opposite and and this thing and we can I'd love to come to that as well that Jalali highlighting this like you're saying this uh when you're thinking of hell and you're thinking of these things this whole concept that well hell is in many ways the ego the self.

Yeah. that it is the the the kind of the temperament, anger, uh you know, pride, the the the kind of boiling of blood that it brings with it, this this rise in temperature that this is a living hell that a person Oh, absolutely. Oh my god. In the me he says something exactly like that. He says that for for people who are pious and who live good lives, heaven is pre is like a there's like a preview of heaven on earth.

They live a good life, right? But that's just a taste of what's more to come. And the people that are evil that do bad things that harm others, their life is a hell, but that's just a preview of the the hell that's to come. They're tormented a little bit on this earth so that they can get a, you know, an idea of the path they're going, where it heads to, right? But ultimately, there's there's greater, you know, aversion that lies ahead. And Sadi actually says something similar. He says that um before a person who is getting you know this the subject of anger is upset the person who is angry is even more upset literally he says the flame of anger burns up the angry person for sure it may or may not burn the other person right so there's a lot of

wisdom in in in these uh these words absolutely and somebody had just mentioned here that look anti- love is hate right like they'd asked the question and that's exactly the point that You know Molana is saying that you see when he's highlighting like you mentioned these anti paradigms and saying that often the cure in this the if you like the the kind of law the aiomatic way is that things are cancelled by their opposites as in things the cure for something is in its so fire you you

would cure it with water as in put it And and he's trying to say in the story of let's say the the woman who has this disease which is love that things the opposite cures them but except love like hate does not cure it like to cure it you cure it with the disease itself obviously he's using disease metaphorically but he's trying to say well you cure it with itself and and you see that in some of the poetry as well that give me the dawa for my da because da in Arabic is disease and dwah

is the the medicine and he's saying the dwah to my d is the like you give me more of the disease to cure me to medicate me yeah no room says the same thing he says which means from the same place that your pain comes the cure is there yeah wow such a beautiful sentiment You know this is that's actually about that when pain exceeds its thing it becomes the cure.

It's it is like in and of itself hidden is the cure. I mean it's obviously it's that that whole thing but yeah I and I feel that you know this symbolism that they were teaching you see because at a at a superficial level they're teaching stories. Yeah. So they're saying look here's a story this man fell in love with this person and this happened and that and you could take a moral out of the story but then you go deeper into the stories.

They are these symbols you see this symbol of love of which and and these kind of by these these opposites like you mentioned you know bizid the opposite and how everything has an opposite except God it doesn't you see now it's you see so you've gone from these symbols of love and and medicating medication and disease and and you're looking at opposites and then you've gone from this whole theme to understanding well God doesn't actually have a a polarized opposite.

There is no he is the transcendent and right and this is massively profound. This is not something, you know, it's not, we're not still at that little story level of, you know, there was a man and he fell in love with this person. And so this is what's being taught. And the public, the people out there, they have they resonate with these archetypes, you know, this these stories, these things people there's a frequency people can pick up on it in society.

they may not and this is the language in which faith and religion I suppose was articulated to people the common person definitely yeah there there's actually a very good um here I I'll pull it up right now there's a very good quote uh pertaining to this this it's almost like I primed you for this but I didn't just came up there's this idea in Persian yeah that that the masi is like the Quran in Persian right they say there's a famous quote which is

again which is something like room spiritual is the Quran in Persian right and then he um actually said this about he said Sobal is saying this the truthtempered sage showed his face his vis and he wrote a Quran in the Persian language right and then another poet says about him he says

he says where is a poet who like that exalted man like is not a prophet but he has a he has a scripture so the idea is that the the mass I mean not to say that it's literally like the Quran This is yeah and people you see if somebody understands it literally in that sense they've missed the frequency they're not on the frequency they they're on a different channel they don't mean and this is what I meant by there is there is like real world speak and and a kind of consciousness that your common person has the common consciousness

this language to them make sense. Mhm. Exactly. Then you have things like legal speak. Yeah. Right. Now legal speak is not legal ease is not your common language for the normal person. So you may get some some of the clergy or certain people saying wait a minute what is being said here what do you mean? Do you actually mean here like oh this guy has scripture or this guy we're referring to it as the Quran.

They're not they're not referring they don't mean this is an actual Quran in that sense. They're using this language generously like somebody may refer to Souay's book as Quran the Quran of grammar. That's yeah perfect. Exactly. That's exactly what they're getting at. But the idea is I mean even nowadays really many people learn to read the Quran but how many lay Muslims are fluent enough in Arabic you know such as yourself to actually pick up and read the Quran and understand what they're reading?

Most people really wouldn't get much. So the idea is that the Masnavi is written in a language you know Persian that the average people would understand and that they can connect to the essence of the Quran that the values the ideas that are there the core right like Sadi said not just the external part but the core from this book and the book is packed with either paraphrases and Persian from the Quran or direct quotes from the Quran. So he references the Quran all the time in the Masnavi.

So it's a book that's deeply informed by the Quran as well. And and I'll tell you what's what really leaps ups you know it's so fantastic that given their time time frame it was a very dark century for much of the Muslim world. Uh great turbulence, great tragedies, travesties. I mean you name it.

Disasters all sorts going on. Now if somebody was to give like what they've done, they've attempted to give the values. See this is what they're trying to do. impart the values, the Quranic values, but by means of uh kind of anecdotes and apocryphal kind of data and they're just using poetry and they're just giving just values not it's not a legal text and they're trying to make people that if you read this sure you may not understand the Quran but if you read this you will be a good person.

Exactly. But what shines through? Now think about it. If somebody was to write something to say, I know I want to write something for the common person to make them a good person. You know, I want them to walk away. They may not understand Arabic, but they're going to walk away with the values of faith. Mhm. And in that time as well, so what you may think is well, okay, this person would be like, okay, I'm not going to lie.

I'm not going to steal. I'm not going to do this. This is what people may assume and that obviously is there. You know, people they they're trying to say have a good good ethics, but the message that leaps out is love. Definitely. And you wouldn't expect that. Like if you were to write like if you got somebody to say, "Look, I want you to write a book for that for the masses to impart values of Islam." You'd assume that they would do one or if they that is more focused like it would be focused on manners fire and brimstone and you know

well even if it wasn't let's say yeah let's say even if they were to shy away from fire and brimstone slightly you think it would be focused on goodlak okay which is good and it would be focused on just this kind of somber worship like yeah just worship and and I'm not saying that's bad but this is what you'd assume but this is almost drowned in the concept of this bewildering love.

Like you wouldn't think they would come up with that in that day and age as this is the message I want the common person to walk away with that they are kind of completely you know dal want one want to use the term almost misguided but one of the the meanings of and this is why some of the mystics they translated you know uh about the about the surah the verse saying that you know you were dal you were not misguided for you were bewildered in love because they said that one of the

meanings of dal being astray was for the lover that was so immensely in love that to people he seemed oh this guy's just astray like he's off the path majun like he's mental people thinking that but he's he's so bewildered and off but in love that's amazing That's amazing. Wow.

So many comments. Yeah. Trying to I'm trying to uh his audio is just out of sync. You know what? Oh, wait. No, these are the old comments. I'm I'm way up high in the in the old comments. Scroll down. What is your view? Someone said, "What is your view of is an amazing poet and I definitely think we need people like him." He was trying to kind of let's say address modernity, get Muslims to think about how we can exist in the modern world and you know create an Islamic modernity where we're not falling behind and you know poor and you know like we are now really lacking development.

So I think we need to really learn learn his uh the values that he had. You know there's a beautiful poem saying that uh the west is not advanced because of you know I'm paraphrasing I don't remember exactly because of you know women in short skirts and all these crazy things that we think and beautiful cities. The west is advanced because it has ilm it has knowledge right and we are unfortunately we still have not learned this lesson right we still live without this this lesson of gathering people don't you know something just on that note on that kind of uh tangential uh piece that look

people forget that during the colonial era and that kind of those centuries which were very I I feel they they they was such a contradiction or if I can use that term because on on one hand it's the enlightenment the technological advancement the scientific thing but then the world is also being plunged into darkness by the kind of atrocities and oppression that is going on but one thing that a person has to note that these emerging powers of modernity that had arisen with and this is what is kind

of addressing as well is they brought with them curiosity. This flame of curiosity once abundantly thrived in Muslim lands many centuries before. But by that time the flame had long been dim if not put out. Yeah. Unfortunately, little Assaf. Yeah.

Actually, so many of the the most famous scholars, you know, a lot of times we kind of idolize and make them into little gods where they can't you can't say anything bad about them. Many of our famous scholars were highly controversial figures at their time. Yeah. Which goes to show you that we had an intellectual environment where you could go out on a limb like you often do and um without getting ostracized, right? I mean, even Bkari, you know, he's a great mahadith. He was he was a controversy in his lifetime over his understanding of the Quran's createdness.

So many scholars to the extent that he was persecuted till his death. Yeah. Yeah. And and now I mean you would never think oh alkari how could they do that you know that would never happen you know being persecuted and abandoned and till his death and then dying in prison. I you know when I tell people sometimes it surprises them that I tell them that all these great imams that you think of for the most part like so most scholars that come to your name when you think of a scholar were never allowed in their lives to give one jumba wow subhan Allah they never gave a single jumahba

not I Malik in Medina not Abu Hanifh in Kuf not I imi Not IM Ahmed, not Imam Bkari, not Imam Muslim, not Tmidi. None of these scholars in not Im Gazali. These people in their lifetimes would never have been allowed to give a single Jumah to be the of a masid. You had to have been put in place by the wii by the local kind of governor whatever.

It was never these people. Nobody would have heard a jum and none of these people for the most part ever led salah during their lifetime. Most of maybe some occasional salah they're traveling somewhere and they read it in a small jama or something or they read it at home in a jama but they were never leading salah in a masid anywhere. This this is all back projected kind of romanticism that we are thinking they yeah I mean even entire figures like people like Iben Tamia were not huge aran of the of the dean you know in their in their era they were kind of marginal figures but then nowadays when you say ibiah alam people think that he is like

you know one of the imams almost you like a very important figure but I mean not to get into my own controversies but even even despite that the fact that there was enough intellectual diversity iversity for them to even exist although it was you know with controversy nowadays we don't even have that so I mean there are figures in the Muslim world and I don't want to get visa banned and so I'll avoid naming the countries but there's figures in the Muslim world and not just you know the the main country where the haram are many Muslim countries where for very basic things they get you know thrown in a dungeon forever and actually Jonathan Brown professor Jonathan Brown tweeted something he says there's a difference uh there's two types of countries there

are certain types of countries where they recognize talent and they they help it grow, right? They make sure it's it flourishes. And then there's countries where talent sooner or later will be crushed. Unfortunately, most Muslim countries are like that. So if you have an initiative in a western country, the government will say, "Wow, look, a smart scholar. Let's give him a scholarship. Let's give him a stipent. Let's help his NGO." It's so true. I I was watching on that note, I was watching this documentary um on YouTube and I mean I love um I love these fields of science.

I love physics. I love uh you know sometimes even there's things they may be so complex we don't understand them but I just I get so kind of fired up just learning about these people and what they and I was reading about some of the great uh breakthroughs of recent times in physics and um you know you start I mean major breakthroughs we're not speaking about something small and they're speaking about like Maxwell and the whole electromagnetism and they're speaking about fineman Richard Fineman I mean these are like the imams of physics huge people and he his work on quantum electro uh

magnetism but that he spent his whole life and he couldn't reconcile a particular he couldn't reconcile certain forces and it and in this documentary it was showing well along comes um uh Abdul Salam uh from uh Pakistan. Mhm.

And and he does it within 6 months. What uh and and and he's hailed like wow this guy reconciles in six months in a matter of months what fineman could not do in his entire lifetime. I mean this is so huge here. And I'm watching this and I'm thinking, wow, that I don't and this guy's from Pakistan and he's and I'm thinking, wow, this guy's from Pakistan.

Like, why has this why has he not been so celebrated? And you've got I was going to say, I've never heard of him. And people haven't heard of him. And people are like, I so then I'm just like, wow, I can't believe this. Let let me watch more about this guy. How can this be? And then it turns out, oh, it's because he was a Kadani. And what happened is they officially disowned him in Pakistan.

Wow. They disowned him. Oh my god. Yeah. And I think when he he they when he died they he wasn't allowed to be buried in the normal kind of graveyard. But I just felt I felt like you know like for a moment because I was just so like in this cloud that I can't believe that this that the whole the greatest minds of physics were so they were just all stalling and along comes this guy from Pakistan and he comes in the 70s to Cambridge and I believe it was Cambridge or Oxford and he comes to the UK and and within ma a matter of months he reconciles something that you know the

greatest minds couldn't do and I'm thinking wow this is so amazing Pakistan must definitely celebrate this guy because he must be a legacy and then it turns out well oh sectarianism got in the way and it comes back to this question because look I get it I mean I'm not trying to say people need to agree with guardianis obviously they won't and obviously I mean that that makes sense in its own right I totally understand that but at the same on At the same token, this is nothing to do with that.

Right. Right. He's a physicist. Yeah. This is not about he's not talking about Islam. He's talking about physics for God's sake. And he's done something for humanity. I mean, he was a Nobel laureette. I mean, he he won the Nobel Prize. So, he he did something that humanity got to understand physics better. But my point is it's not about the politics that happened. It's about the mindset like you said that there are places that will promote that intellectual growth, mathematics, you know, physics, biology, chemistry, and there's places that will just stall it and they'll just be like, absolutely.

Yeah. Our countries unfortunately are the places where they get stalled, you know, where um and western countries again like I said, I was I was sent to study Arabic from the United States. My university gave me a scholarship. would Iran, you know, or any Muslim country I would be associated with fund me to go learn Arabic somewhere? Definitely not. I mean, in Muslim countries, you'd just be happy that the government doesn't bother you, let alone expecting them to help you in any way. And it's just a shame. I mean all these scholars that we're so interested in they were only able to you know become who they were through patronage you know through this through Sultans or some person funding them some you know person that they was interested in their work sympathetic you know Al Ghazali and Sadi and Roomie weren't

farming or in the bazar they were getting stipens but nowadays you know we have no money for uh that type of thing we just have money to build bourge khalifa and clock towers and you know waste it on gold supercars and you know villas in in Dubai and it's just very unfortunate there's no intellectual tradition anymore really in the Muslim world and anyone who is an intellectual we did have back then as well. So um because people and I tell you Dr.

um uh Omar Faruk Abdullah he has a great lecture on this as well highlighting that you see in the past what they did have was uh I mean people had their p some people had personal family heritage wealth and stuff and lands and but you did have some endowments and what that was is that people in the past they with the saddas many people would kind of donate a certain let's say certain fields, crop fields and they would donate it to let's say uh a particular what might be a madrasa or

it might be certain students of knowledge from that area whoever are students of knowledge and so what this meant is they would entrust it to a trust who could also benefit from that but they don't um they they can't monopolize the whole thing but these endowments were done in many places so let's say I'm on my deathbed and I think well you know what my family can take this and I've got this land you know that land it's going to be for students of knowledge mh and as long as a person can prove that to the trust he would get a certain grant from that land which doesn't cost anyone and people were doing this um which is

quite fascinating as a as a system although today obviously things have it's a different world we live in but I was just saying it it's really interesting to to learn that and Dr. Omar has a whole I think a lecture on it. It's interesting. Yeah. I mean there's no knowledge produced without money behind it and unfortunately there's just you know no money for these types of things in in the Muslim world anymore. They're just not interested. So it's very sad. We are in many ways responsible for our own lot.

I mean colonization has ended approximately I think 100 years ago now where we're reaching a century of the last you know colonizers leaving our lands. And you know we can't recuperate historic wealth but we can still change our mindset. Our mindset is you know more or less kind of unchanged. is as it was. question is this that you see today to learn Islam really if if you live especially if you live in the west because okay wherever you live Islam why would a person be learning about our heritage let's say the heritage the whole Torah why would a person be learning either just out of passion and an interest but then there is a lot they have to do

to get to that to get to that kernel you have to for example study the Arabic language study study this, study that and then you get to this kind of juicy parts and stuff or you've just been put in a madrasa like let's say in the in many Muslim countries like let's say Pakistan as an example parents may just put their child in a madrasa because it just means that the child will be one babysat and provided fed and he'll have basically that's the next 10 years he's being taken care of like I I'm I'm let's say they're impoverished And I'm not blaming them.

I'm just saying that any person wants their children to survive and if they don't have money and they think well if I put him in a madrasa at least he's being fed. But then this is not it's the opposite of creme de la creme you know it's the the lowest unfortunately kind of uh rungs of society that are being put into a mudrasa system which then are emerging on the on the pulpits and on the Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, and and so we can't.

It's difficult because if you the bright minds, they're saying, "Well, I'm going to make him a doctor. I'm going to make her this." They're not going to think, "Well, definitely." You know, because if they've got a kid, they're not going to say, "Well, I'll make my kid learn about Islam." Because they're going to think, "Well, what on earth is that? How's that going to feed him?" Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. No, I think unfortunately there's this joke, I mean, in Arab countries and maybe, I guess Pakistan, as you say, in Iran, where if you have 90 to 100, you become a doctor.

If you have 80 to 90, you become an engineer or lawyer. If you have 60 to 70, you become a butcher or something. If you get below that, then you go to the mudra sign, you become, you know, molana mutis. And it's just it's just kind of it's illness kind of become a joke. You know, the idea is now when they think about an imam, they're picturing a poor uneducated person. It's very sad. I mean these are the people who are you know they say right that the people who you know the scholars are the inheritors of the prophets but you know we're just kind of mass-producing these people who really don't know much I mean I remember a cousin of a cousin in Iran he graduated he wanted to go to the the madrasa system and his parents were upset they

said he's too smart he should do secular study he should go to the university to study Islam he shouldn't go to the madrasites it'd be a waste of his talent I mean and it's very sad I remember one time I was in a bus ride from one Iranian city to another and the city that I was headed to happened to have a big madrasa in it. It was just on the way in my trip. I wasn't actually doing anything there and I happened to be next to someone and you know as it is the ride is shorter if you're talking. We started to talk and uh I realized you know that he was a sheh.

He had the whole garb and I had normal clothes on at the time and uh he was surprised. You were in undercover clothing, civil clothing. He said um I said well why don't you come to the madrasa system this time? I mean, you know so much about Islam, you know Arabic. And I said, I want to improve my Arabic. And he laughed. He said, your Arabic is better than some of the teachers. He says, you already know enough to be considered quote unquote like a sheh and get assigned to a masid and lead prayers. And and I was kind of appalled because I certainly, especially then, but not even now, wouldn't feel ready to be a spiritual leader like that.

But and I kind of was prying and asking him questions and he was saying, "Oh, what's the deal with Sufism?" He didn't really even know much about Sufism or, you know, what other sects believed. He had a very kind of superficial, very basic kind of understanding of Islam. And I was kind of worried. I said, "Well, if you're the person who's responsible for leading our community, then is it a wonder why we are the way we are?" And coming to America, it's even worse. People who lead prayers and many American mosques are engineers or doctors.

I think in the UK, it's a bit better, but in America, a lot of times No, it's much worse in the UK. I think America is actually a lot better. Yeah. No way. Wow. because in in America they actually um pay the imams pretty well I think so given the general kind of standards and at least that's why you'll see the the average American Imam is still because it's there there's there's there's obviously money in the field it still kind of attracts a certain amount of talent whereas in the UK because The

I mean you would not survive on a kind of molana salary here. Nobody can survive honestly. Is it that low? It is is below minimum wage. It's going to be ridiculous kind of pay that they will pay to just or they will barely scratch maybe if I doubt it even if they scratch the minimum wage but if they have to for legality purposes they may um and make them do other things. This is why here you will get most imams are very um you know they they're talent deprived unfortunately there there's a lot of will they be at least afforded housing I know Catholic priests for example aren't paid much money but they're at least

given housing and kind of other in America I think it is like that yeah here here isn't not at all so that's very sad but I mean you know it's the issue is it's Not I think we're kind of beyond trying to like it's not about highlighting faults. It's that the whole thing is in such a disarray.

the whole thing like even because here let's say the UK is just going to be a tiny reflection of let's say Pakistan and America might be a bit more diverse because it has a you know the diaspora is still quite multithnic now but the people there sending their kids like you mentioned somebody saying look I want to make my kid a doctor I don't or you said in Iran somebody who's going to study Islam and they're like what you know if only he went to a secular university.

I'm not even blaming those people because look those people they don't hate on Islam. They love Islam. Right? But the truth is that the world we live in today, the coordinates have changed to such an extent and the elements in the equation that it doesn't make sense practically to try to invest in learning about Islam. It doesn't make sense because what are you going to do with it?

So it's very true. Yeah. Yeah. So it's the problem is much greater than just you know we're not trying for for people watching this it's not about you know like here we're saying look oh the masid for example in the UK they pay the imams I think terribly they underpaid massively but it's not about here like if a masid said well okay let's pay them well I think which they should uh it would at least start bringing in some talent but then they're going to be like well where do we get the money from because nobody's is investing in a masid.

No, it's very true. So the problem is so systemic. It's not that the issue is in it's systemic. It's not the elements. It's right. Right. Yeah. No, I think a lot of times Islam, even Muslim countries, it's sad. It's almost like a remnant, you know. It's this thing that we do. We fast in Ramadan. We do a nikah when we get married, you know, we don't just get a secular marriage. We pray, you know, as a family, as a community here and again, maybe if we're religious personally, but it's not like a living, breathing thing where it's almost something that we kind of, it's almost like a family heirloom that's on the mantle that we pick off the mantle and we enjoy and then we put it back.

It there's no new life. There's no new scholarship. There's no new thought and there's not really much new interest. I mean, there is this one talk that I listened to was so shocking. a mathematician or statistician, one of these iss America. He was talking about how Islam is like going to go extinct. And he was saying, it was shocking the audience and it was a conference. He was saying that actually Islam has come to America and gone extinct before. There's been other Muslim communities in the 1700s, 1800s.

In fact, the oldest mosque in America is a Polish mosque. It might shock you guys that there's Polish Muslims. Polish. Are there any Yeah. Are there any Polish Muslims in America now? I mean, just goes to show you, we've had groups that came and died out, right? And he was saying that, for example, in his town that there's a thousand people in I think it was Iowa City, Iowa, and only two people showed up for Juma on average. Like a couple people would show up and they would be like international students who are just visiting. And he was saying just based on the amount of Muslims that there are based on population growth that in like two generations there should be like 20 million Muslims in America.

But the number of Muslims is like is at homeostasis. like the amount of people leaving is counteracted by the amount of people entering but it's like stagnant right and it's very true I mean you barely see people interested in Islam intellectually socially anyway on that note I wanted to say there was a question I was asked quite recently um I'm not sure if I answered it on my one of my shows or I was asked in my it might have been a kind of Patreon group session but I' I'd like to just share it here and that was that somebody had asked that Look um one of the uh a question was put to an imam or someone

and they were they were asking that look somebody said my parents were more religious than than than I am and their parents were more religious than them and so I feel this was the questioner was asking that you see my children will lack even more because let's say I'm let's say I'm I don't know 30% of the previous generations in in this is what the questioner is saying.

Um so their children will be even less connected. So definitely does this not mean that uh and this is why I felt it kind of related to your statement that does it not mean that well their children then will be even more and then it will just be extinct. And and I asked that what did the imam say that you asked that the person asked this from? And they said, "Well, the imam didn't say just kind of said, but I said that I would like to answer or or give a part of an input." And that is that I said that I I beg to differ.

And I feel that yes in part you may be right that uh it is true that my grandfather for example always prayed the hajjud. He always, you know, as far as he could, he would not miss the hajjud. He would recite a portion his a portion of the Quran every single day so long as he could. And in that sense, my parents would have been less.

And then let's say my generation would be less than my parents, let's say, or maybe some however. How if you're looking at it from a certain perspective, I said however I feel that our let's say the younger generation now our kids or people in that generation they have a much greater love for the environment.

They many of them are much more conscious about helping the poor. Many of them are much more involved in trying to fight the the plight of victims and standing up for rights. I said many of them are much more on iman when it comes to taking care of God's earth. Right? So from a perspective you you are right from a perspective that I said to the person that you know what the person was saying that they may see from a very ritual perspective that some of the rituals are not as strong

but the meaning of being you know like in the Quran that some of the said we have imah says you don't have iman you may have Islam you know you may have you may pray but you don't have iman you know your the hearts have not touched I iman yet and in this sense tying into what you know what our discussion earlier on what uh what Molana Jalaludi is trying to kind of embibe through his mnaui through these stories through this wisdom it's

that spirit and I think that that there is an awakening and that is actually much stronger than it was before. This is how I feel Allah. I feel that the there is a greater consciousness amongst younger people than there was in like I would feel my generation or people before older than me. I don't know but your thoughts. No, no, definitely. No, I I agree with the essence of what you're getting at that there is a lot more there.

They're more socially conscious. kind of let's say the ethics of Islam or the values of Islam. America I can speak to American Muslims because I'm you know I'm not from the UK but they're very politically involved. They're very concerned with you know establishing justice in society and standing up for different causes. conscious of course and I'm not just trying to confuse this with social justice warriors but I'm just I'm saying but the actual ethic and I think this really ties in so well with going back to at that time of pure a very dark century like we're speaking about the 13th century for much of the Muslim world yet people like uh molanai

people like Sadi are trying to teach these things they're doing a very similar like they're not empas emphasizing. I'm not saying they don't value, but they're not trying to just emphasize rituals. They're trying to give really values like take this story away and with it have this value of of love and it's I mean it's it's kind of like I don't know there's this it's kind of going in a way in a circle we're saying.

Yeah. Right. Right. No, definitely there there I think both parts are important. That's the thing. The ritual is is important. It's, you know, it's waj and for a reason, but it's also important to pair it with these values of love and compassion and and, you know, like you said, caring about the environment and all these things. It it shouldn't be either or, right? So, if if you're a Muslim and, you know, you you have all these, you know, good values, but you don't do any of the rituals, that's not great. And also on the other end, if you just do the rituals, but it's it's totally devoid of anything deeper, then that's also, you know, lacking in in its own right as well.

So, it's that's kind of I think the difficulty of Islam is finding a balance. you know, Islam is always the middle path, you know, you know, it's like the middle the middle path, neither on this end or that end. So, I think it's uh it's it's important to try to balance and it's difficult, you know, in the world we live in today. Do we even have enough time to just do the the basic rituals like even just praying five times a day is difficult with office life here daytoday you know time deadlines I have to submit xyz at these times maybe only the masid imam is the person who can pray all five prayers a day on time in jamaat I mean otherwise you hear about these past societies where even today if you go to many middle eastern countries you see kind of a lazy bazari he's just

sitting there he sells something he does if he doesn't he doesn't he hears the aan he goes and prays he comes back and sits down It's very easy to, you know, fulfill all the the obligations when you live in these old school societies. But for those of us living in modern societies, you're commuting in a western city from work to home. It's m time. What are you going to do? You know, pull over and pray on the side of the highway. It's just becomes very difficult in this modern world. Maybe going to the hadith of, you know, at the end of times holding on to your faith will be like holding on to a coal becomes very difficult to even like you said, where is time for that?

Yeah. But I feel that you know given the current consciousness the the the collective kind of consciousness that there is and the zeitgeist especially for Muslims and in the west as well. I feel that it is very uh fertile and very right for this message, you know, the the this kind of this um spiritual message that was being uh promoted by people like uh Molanai or Sheikh Sadi.

I feel that it is because they in essence obviously they were never trying to um belittle the the mam of rituals or even though in some of their things it appears like they're speaking in such a way they giving metaphors sometimes of like alcohol or giving things like this of the beloved for example as opposed to just saying God they will often speak of him as as the beloved in yeah the one that you the the one you love and and and this is in a way it it really gels well with the common person

touches on that archetype. There's um there was a story of um I'm not sure was it um who' mentioned the story I'm not sure whether it was uh uh far or whether it's mentioned in the but I I had come across it that um that it's mentioned that in these amongst these stories that one of the these people the mystics he claims that oh god um it's like a dialogue between him and God.

And God and God is saying to him that um God is saying to him that well, you know, I'm going to expose you and I'm going to show what you get up to to the common person and then we'll see where your all this respect goes and you know and all your kind of and all this because I'm going to expose your sins and I'm going to expose just how you are your your your true nerves in a state.

Yeah. In a state. And and then he says and and in a very with that audacity, he and then he says to God, "Okay, then he says, "Well, and I'm going to expose." He says, "Well, I'm going to expose how merciful you truly are. And it doesn't matter whether people pray or don't pray. And it doesn't matter whether they drink alcohol or they don't or they do this. I'm gonna I'm going to reveal that your your mercy is that vast that it doesn't really matter.

They you they're all going to they're all going to heaven cuz cuz you you are so merciful. I'm going to feel the the the the kind of the the the un the unboundedness of your mercy to people and then in the closeness that intimacy that he's talking to God as if in this way. Exactly. With the that that somebody has this relationship to be able to do that.

It's it's with that beloved kind of thing like you couldn't just do that with a stranger. And then God says in that dialogue um he says that uh I he he says that I will he says that I take he says I I think not I think but he says I will remain silent and you remain silent. And I don't know whether he uses the word is it something like nasman or something but I will and you will remain silent but it's in far and he says uh yeah I think it's better we just leave it like I won't expose you you don't expose beautiful what a beautiful sentiment it's amazing

because it's the the whole point is that it's not that these people were belittling this but it's that sentiment isn't it this whole new they were tapping into this archetype that people have of love and of um and and they and they really nurtured it and gave it to people. But what are some are there certain u uh stories or certain things from the uh either the Matnaui or the Bustan or the Gulistan that leap up right at you when you think about it?

Man, it's it's difficult. I mean the so much obviously in there, right? It's filled with so many with so many gems. It's just it's impossible to think of one. One really interesting one you say about love is. This is a common story actually that Roomie mentions in the Masnavi is the Sultan hears about Ley or Leila as some pronounced and he wants to see what the big deal about her is. And he says to the the soldiers, "Go to her village and just bring all the women from her village here so we can don't worry about sorting them out, you know, just bring them all here." I love.

So he he sees them all and he says, "What's the big deal? You're you're all a bunch of village girls, you know. Where's Lelay? Where's Ley? I want to see the the beauty. And Ley steps forward. Do they pronounce it as sorry, do they pronounce it as Ley in in Persian we say Ley? Yes. And then she says, I am Ley, but to see me, you have to be Majnoon. You are not Majun. So you can't perceive my beauty. So it's such a beautiful metaphor about having the right perception, the right naza, right?

The the ability to see. So so many people will look at the things maybe we'll say in this live and they'll be upset like you said, they're not on the right wavelength. They're just seeing the exterior kind of of meaning of things. But there's another anecdote that that a sheh said he was giving a talk about the of marriage and Egyptian sheh and he said that a lot of people they misunderstand the point of marriage. They think it's like a scoreboard like they come to get marriage counseling and they come ask me questions and they say sheh I have to do these things for her and she has to do these things for me and I'm allowed to do these things and she's allowed to do these things.

And he said something amazing. He said law this cold hard law is for when love is not absent right but when love is absent you don't need the law so the law tells you you have to you know take care of your when love is absent or it's that's when law is required okay yes yes if you have love you shouldn't need to think about these things right so if there was love in the marriage you shouldn't have to say hey according to Sharia it says you're supposed to give me money if you're my husband and the husband shouldn't have to say you're supposed to you know I don't know pour or tea.

For me, you should just love each other so much that you already do that. And the same thing can be applied to God. You know, if you truly love God, you would be a good person. You would act in a godly way. The the whole fire and brimstone and these things that they emphasize so much, it's to scare people who aren't, you know, fearing God. If you already feared and loved God, you wouldn't need to hear these. It's not even you'll go to hell.

Fear. It's I think this the emotion of fear is used. Exactly. But really what ought to you know if we did I I feel if I could say this if we did our job better it ought to be love. Mhm. And we ought to inculcate love in people towards God and inspire love.

But the problem is that is hard and difficult and fear is easy. It's easy scaring you. It's not it's not as easy to inspire you to be in love with God. And that's hard work, isn't it? Yeah. It it that the act of making someone afraid is like belittling and crushing their their personhood, their naps, their their honor, right? But making them be in awe of God, making them love God, that's building up the person, right?

Yeah. It's nurturing, isn't it? It's very Didn't Allah tell us we have given, you know, dignity and honor to the the son, the sons of Adam. This is should be the goal of Islam to preserve and increase dignity and and build us up not to just say oh you know you'll go to hell and don't ask too many questions and oh obey your abusive husband and obey the abusive religious authorities and don't demand justice in your society just you know type of behavior this is totally contrary to Islam and when you look at the populations that um that you know that uh that Islam has produced that the way we act the way we you know burn people alive in our streets for, you

know, blasphemy accusations that aren't even real. The way we persecute entire minorities, you know, maybe they do have weird practices that we disagree with. That's fine. Let them do it in their private dwellings or, you know, where they worship or maybe they do not pray. What does it matter to you? You know, they're not forcing you to stop praying. you know our populations it's like we are not the best um that has been you know that has been taken out of you know it says you were the best people that were taken out of the humanity you Muslims are we really that same um it's kind of difficult for me to to to understand you know if you try to compare them the way we we were described in the way we act

now the way we behave just in like says where's this and where's that this huge gap between them wow so it's very sad what we've become, you know, as an um it's like Muslims, if you ask people what are Muslims known for, they'll say things like terrorism, lying, cheating, stealing, wars. I mean, it's very sad. I mean, we we were gifted this I tweeted at one time actually that the whole of Muslims who have behaved in these ways will be called to account for taking the most beautiful religion and making it the most ugly religion.

If you take the image of any religion in the world, Islam has the ugliest image out of all of them. And we will be held to account for that. And what's fascinating is that the term a kind of compassionate kindness or a bettering and and one way is that it is in its root form as from from hassa from something from hus making hen.

So making something beautiful or making it like you he made it beautiful or he did it with some perfection. Mhm. A kind of beautiful perfection. Now that that is it's interesting that that is what is that in the hadith that is ultimately a a kind of god consciousness. But it's it's so you see it's it's layered because it's so interesting that the the power of attention and and I I don't want to kind of just go because I'll just end up kind of

really going off on this and I don't want to do that but it's interesting that you see we become what the glance of attention can do to us. It doesn't collapse us but it changes us. Mhm. We you see the moment a person becomes aware that they are in the attention of someone that you see from the subject they become aware of themsel as an object.

There's a lot that goes on and it's so amazing that it transforms everything like the whole our modern world is so engrossed in even whether it's going to be social media or anything. It's just about being in the glance because once we have a consciousness that other people are conscious of us, it's like a meta consciousness. it changes like we come to the to life in this different way and yeah but I mean I don't want to go but I think in that it's interesting that what what what you're doing in that hadith the upper

framework is that you are consciousness of God of you it's like an extra meta meta consciousness but at the very least forget other people it's God that you know God is you know that he watches you it. That's howan is defined. I'm I'm I'm going to end up going off on but let's come back to No worries. No worries.

Come back to um Sadi and Roomie. Sure. So okay. So yeah. So share with us a favorite of yours from from from this something that always comes to your like you're like man they he just killed it on that one. I mean there's there's so many from Sadi. I mean from the Golistthan itself it's it's full of you know so many beautiful gems like if you um if you look at the introduction to the Golthan actually someone mentioned this uh they they mentioned the introduction is beautiful and for those who know Persian I would definitely uh you know say that they should read the Persian but I could read a bit from the English just to show you uh you know how beautiful it is.

He says he says obligation is due to God for obedience of him is a cause for proximity and with gratitude comes an increase in benefits. Every breath that goes in is an extension of life and when it comes out it's a relief to the individual. Therefore in every breath there are two benefits and for each benefit one thank is necessary. Just that opening line how many of us are conscious of these basic breaths that we take.

How many of us even, you know, are even grateful for the fact that we're alive? And then sad he says so beautifully, who's able by what his word or deeds do of thanking God as much as he needs to. So then he continues, you know, to to say that he's not able. It's best a slave seek pardon first at God's court for his shortcoming. For no one can render service to him in a way that's becoming. None of us are worthy of approaching God with a service.

Then he says, "The reign of his incalculable mercy falls upon all and the table of his unstinting bounty is laid everywhere. He does not tear the veil of his servants's honor because of an unspeakable sin. And he does not neglect the duty of providing substance for any grievous sin." So it's amazing how when they're thinking about God, they're just in awe and they're talking about how merciful and how beautiful he is. It's always positive met. It's always the positive attributes, you know, and we could almost say the more feminine attributes of his uh of his 99 names.

Yeah. It's so and often there's a um the kind of um the kind of language that is adopted is of this um of somewhat of a kind of uh at times of this kind of bridal encounter is used on many um occasions.

Even this term of like kash or even though it just means a kind of unveiling but but unveiling in and of itself it was often associated with this this kind of uh bridal rhetoric of which ties into to to the lover and the and the loved or the beloved. So yeah.

Okay. Yeah. I mean just another another go ahead just another beautiful one uh from the golistan he says the world remains for none oh brother tie your heart to the lord and none other on this world's kingdom you cannot depend for it sustains and kills you in the end when the pure soul is finally homebound you die be it on the throne or on the ground so it just kind of underlines that these are your translations by the way yes I was about to say that's it's uh that's amazing wow Now how do you contrast his poetry with uh that of uh Molana Roomie?

How do you find the styles? Fascinating question. Room's poetry is it's kind of from his hall and aw his mystical states. So he would go into a state and he would just start reciting which is why a lot of times his poems uh contain repetition or sometimes there's there's mistakes in them even like a rhyme or meter mistake the as you probably studied in your maj studies the wen and and the o and the urude are not completely correct sometimes and there's a lot of repetition some of his poems are very short some are very long you get the sense that they're flow of consciousness I sense that you would be more interested in that si is not like that sadi is a very kind

Is there a poem? I heard a poem once saying that he said that the the whole world is I don't if if this I I heard this. So that the whole world his metaphor is the whole world is a breast. Is that everybody's I think everybody's just kind of something like that. Yeah. I'm thinking you know what malana was it's very interesting to read.

No, in fact actually the Sufis had said um a lot of times in in these traditions and these like you know monasticism or whatever there's this idea that you should renounce sensual pleasures and Roomie was not like that at all. In fact, his father in his diaries, Roomy's father, not Roomie, wrote about his desire for women in his room or his father's desire. His father had written about this in his personal diary. Um, Bahadin, which is his name.

Uh, and he wrote about his desire for his multiple wives and that he yearned for sexual, you know, pleasure and that this there was no contradiction. Yeah. In his mind between this and being religious. And he even wrote about uh one time where he said one of his wives entered his room and they used to everyone used to have their own room back then. It wasn't like now where you know a wife and a husband have a room. He would you know they would alternate or something. I don't know. And he was in in morning prayer and his wife walked in and he wanted to start his zikur you know you have your word after your prayer and he was so overtaken in uh in his desire for his wife that he decided to you know go be with her instead of do his morning word right after his prayer.

Is that not a form of mindfulness in and of itself and a form of one may say worship by extension by being in in this state deep m no honestly and nowadays you know Islam is considered so sex negative you know it's so taboo to even to even mention this this topic to people even people who are married they have like bashfulness with each other and they're they're married you know Muslims uh Muslim marriage counselors will attest to this I've heard them on YouTube say this but uh and then himself wrote about uh he would write about uh he has things that like are you could I guess you could say they're sexual in the me of which causes confusion for many people but they're always a metaphor for for

something deeper right so if you read them of course on the surface level you won't get it but they're always a metaphor for for something deeper right and it's um like one of his students is imploring him to reveal his secrets you know we say these Sufi saints have secrets which is why we say you know may god sanctify secret and then his student says says, "You should reveal your secret because I wouldn't lay with my lover with a shirt on." Right?

If you're with the beloved, you should reveal all the secrets. But nowadays, could you imagine a Muslim making that type of making that type of uh You can imagine if Roomie Mahalana Room was around today just every now and then sending off a tweet like this, he's just saying, you know, if you want to share the secret, just lie with me naked. And this is like his his kind of tweet. Yeah. Yeah. I know everybody would be like it wouldn't be taken well.

Yeah, it wouldn't be taken well. You know the these these stories um they're you know they're they're full of kind of metaphors right even though if you read them again from just a surface point of view you wouldn't get it right and Sadi for example has a has a chapter in the Golistan called on feebleness and old age where he talks about how there's this contradiction in life between gaining money which takes time and your youthfulness which is always decreasing and there's an old man who wants to get married but he doesn't marry and a friend asked him why don't you marry a young woman right because you have a lot of money.

And the old man, it's it's so funny. Could you imagine a Muslim scholar saying something like this today? It would never happen. The old man says, "I have no inclination to younger women. So why would a younger woman have an inclination to me?" Right. I'm an old man. I'm sorry. He's saying, "I have no inclination to old women. So why would a young woman have inclination to me?" Meaning, you know, why would I'm an old guy? What's she going to find interesting? Yeah. Exactly. And then he says, "Well, why don't you have an inclination in old women?" And he says, you know, for obvious reasons, I'm not interested.

And then Sadi says, it's potency that counts, not not money, right? It's verility and age that's more valuable, not money. Because if you're old and you have no vility, what's the good? You're just going to lay around and have money. Sadi says a woman would prefer 10 carats to a raw steak. You could you could you could piece it together, right? 10 carats are not not valuable, right?

They're young and worthless. But a raw steak is expensive. It's raw meat. But you can put together, you know, the innuendo that he's getting. So he's saying what counts in life is is having that youthful energy, right? Not just being old and having a bunch of money even in old age having that. So I mean, could you imagine a Muslim these days coming out with these types of things? You know, they would uh they would never accept that type of thing. So I mean there's so many beautiful hilarities.

A, you know, there is a a whole a kind of a whole energy a very I I would say a a very a transcendent energy in the sensual. But for many people it has unfortunately over the centuries it's kind of and I feel that definitely with colonialism and you know the whole Victorian kind of taboo around uh sensuality and sexuality I feel that it heightened all of that.

But otherwise there is something very empowering, enriching and and transcendent in the sense that very spiritual with that intimacy and this is why these am championing that right these people doing that was incredibly important for our tradition I think otherwise people you know if we didn't have a legacy where People did own that.

They did kind of champion it, did promote it. Definitely. Here I I'll give you I'll give you a metaphor actually. So I have two copies of the Golistan, right? One is a translation from the 1800s. Okay. And one is a modern Persian edition. In the original copy, there was these sexual metaphors, right? Okay. Now, in the translation from the Victorian era, the sexual metaphors are omitted.

They're censored. Because in the Victorian English era, you know, it's inappropriate, but they were in the original text. Nowadays, if you get the book in the Muslim world, it's censored still. So, subhan Allah, we have inherited the same values from the Victorian Brits. The same type of why did why was this not too taboo back then, a thousand years ago, 800 years ago, and now it's too taboo to where it needs to be censored. We have simply inherited the values of the Victorian British people who, you know, there's we say there's no Abe in the matters of Dean, right?

We have hadiths about sexuality that are very explicit. If there was so evil and so wrong, why would they even utter these things, right? But nowadays, we can't we can't have that. Like the very the very topic is considered too taboo to even speak about, right? It's just like for example, I' I've had I've heard of cases, there's so many things, you know, when you amass an audience in the Muslim world, uh you get people's problems. Maybe this happens to you. They they bring they come to advice for you seeking some sort of wisdom from the tradition.

And someone said that they got a divorce because their marriage had gotten to a point where they hadn't had intimacy, excuse me, in a year. And I wondered, you know, why didn't this get solved earlier? And the person said, oh, because I was too embarrassed to tell anyone. It was just too too taboo to even bring this up in in my culture. And I thought, you know, Mr. I think I think it is it is very embarrassing for people to bring up.

I think it's very embarrassing. I've heard that from several people on uh you know relationship kind of matters that they hadn't that they've not been intimate let's say for years I've heard several years not just like one year and in many ways it's this you see this is you see this is obviously indicative of a person I mean this is a personal relationship between people two people but it's also indicative by extension of that kind of spirit that people then carry

because if there isn't a secure intimacy Mhm. it it kind of echoes a profound compassion of humanity. It brings a person because if a person does not have their own in their own lives they they don't have a secure sense of intimacy they will definitely find reflections of that in their kind of professing or or handling or expressing

uh h you know compassionate humanity. So yeah, no no I think we need to we need to look at the way Muslims were before colonization and we need to ask ourselves how did we get to where we are today where someone in the comments said you know there was no taboo around sex in the prophet's timeatam you know where did where did this come from where did we inherit this you know and in that example I gave you the person's family was upset when they finally mustered up the courage to say hey my rights as a spouse are not being fulfilled the family was upset saying is is this something you bring to us you know keep it to yourself it's not our problem I mean we're asking ourselves why there's an apostasy crisis, why people mock religious Muslims, why no one is taking Islam seriously in the West.

We've we've lost the plot. We've made Islam, you know, we we've lost the essence. We've lost the core. We've made it to where it's not a religion worth adhering to for many people, unfortunately. I mean, just look at the apostles. I just want to say that and there's a distinction because we've spoken about that and somebody said in the comment, "Look, there is no love without sexual attraction." And as true as that is, but I'm I'm trying to you see this what we're speaking about is much more profound than just the act of sex.

This is not definitely this is not just about you see the act of just uh just sexual intercourse is at the level of animality. Absolutely. It is at a very animal creature level. This is something much this is incredibly profound definitely and this is about for human beings healing and a kind of transcendental spiritual growth.

This is in the realm of a spiritual realm. This is not something you see. So just in case people because the comment saying well okay you know people do have sex of course but this is very different to that even though there's an obviously an overlap this is something very nourishing the intimacy aspect it's it's not just at that very kind of the level of animality and just the act in and of itself but yeah you know I wanted to still with the topic But moving uh to um

about Molanai himself and even maybe Shirazi just a quick question before I wanted to move to the um the kind the kind of sense of uh their mindset. Do you feel that she sadi was more you know some people say you have these kind of intoxicated mystics not intoxicated actually intoxicated but these kind of wild mystics and molana is is placed in that category as well but would you place equally uh sadi in that or was he from the somewhat sober sober he was definitely more sober and I think

that he wouldn't even count himself as a mystic properly I think he consider himself someone who aspires to their values but he's not truly among them. He's not quite pious enough. That's the kind of impression I had as well of right. Yeah. He loves their virtues and all that and he aspires to internally be like them but he he's not you know he's not pious enough quite maybe later in life I think that he did become a Sufi and joined a Sufi hospice or Zawa but early in his life when he was younger he wasn't quite that committed in terms of I wanted to ask I had speculated previously and in my video uh I had

speculated that I believe it's possible that many mystics including Molana Jalaladin Roomi may would have encountered I believe that I spec I mean speculation uh perhaps unbeknownst to them but traces of certain psychedelics may have um may have kind of catalyzed the uh in experiences.

So I did mention that for example the reed uh from which the nay from which the flute is is is made that a common so I have a video on psychedelics are not haram it's on YouTube and it's a very detailed video and there's a certain point where I touch upon this as well and I highlight that the nay which often molana room is addressing and you know he's very fond of of this flute that he's always in in much of his poetry that it's made of a particular reed and I show a certain kind of popular read in that region that is often used for flutes and things

which does certain which does contain DMT or some of some of them yeah some of them even have 5me DMT now is that what Joe Rogan talks about a lot I think he mentions it of course yeah definitely these these are the the ultimate these are the advanced kind of what they call the the I mean they would call DMT the spirit molecule and 5 MO the God molecule because you're just going straight to God on that one.

And the the point is that let's say if you do try to ingest uh some DMT tiny traces tiny traces let's say because of the it being you know the lips being wet and you're kind of like constantly on this even if you ingested large amounts you see DMT ingested would be invalid because it wouldn't it would be in it it wouldn't really do anything because the stomach I mean in the gut we would have these uh uh these enzymes monamine enzymes which would inhibit DMT right

but there's certain MAU inhibitors that are found so hence the shamans and people they when they make Iawaska they have to combine both the DMT and the MAU inhibitors okay but what's interesting is certain things contain natural mau inhibitors like the harmala seed now which is interesting Because Roomie in a lot of his poetry speaks of the drink made of haram seed that and in this poem which he says that there isn't even enough room for one more seed and so if they were drinking these drinks that were rich in mount

inhibitors and at the same time having tiny even if it was tiny traces of uh let's say DMT getting into the system it could catalyze ize that whole experience. And in some ways it would make sense that when they speak of this kind of oneness or this non-duality or they speak of they they kind of it's such it's a different realm. It's like it's not a normal it's a very transcendental experience that the person is having.

So I had speculated that I feel they may have they may not have known but these things may have um catalyzed their experiences as in boosted their experiences. This is not in any way to rob them of their experience or to kind of detract because it's it's still them. It's still their whole mindset. These things do not they're not fake. They they just it's like saying let's say a person goes to the gym and they take supplements and they take stuff.

It is still them putting in the hard work and doing you know you're not you could just sit at home and take something. Somebody could use steroids sitting at home. It doesn't really do anything right. Absolutely. Uh I mean you wouldn't just get muscles but that's my point. But yeah I don't know if that's uh what your thoughts are. That would be cool if you could just take a steroid and grow muscles out. That would be you know in terms of roomy. I mean it's impossible to know. I mean it's plausible. I I can't you know comment any conclusion.

But what I would say is there's groups even today that exist in the Muslim world and I won't expose where but in certain places where I don't know if DMT is the word but certain kind of psychedelic style substances like mushrooms etc are I'm a strong advocate for uh what all of these by the way what we call enthogens uh because people call them hallucinogens but people of the of the path call them right right we call them enthogens things that connect you to God.

Um so I I do I'm I'm very strong uh advocate of these things where obviously there's issues of legalities are separate and people in different countries there's different rulings and different laws and um but my point is that these things I do feel that they are incredibly valuable uh if like anything if used correctly they are a source of healing they are sacred kind of medicine but yeah you're saying there's people I think yeah there's there's some there's some people who I don't know if Sufi is the right word but they're definitely spiritually inclined who use opiates or things like I don't know I guess hallucinogenics I don't know if

that you said that's not a word you like also speaking of the medical element I read sacred sacred medicine they were finding out that it could be a cure to PTSD that's very interesting to me if that's true and I would it is no no it's unquestionable psilocybin that's very psilocybin which is found in mushrooms um is it cures um it cures cause depression, it will cure PTSD. I mean, it's it's it results in neurogenesis like you'll actually create new kind of synaptic pathways and uh uh in the brain and new neuronal kind of connections.

Even a single dose of these things and DMT is like that's like the you know the the sheh of of this arena if you like with Right. Right. They were they were legalized in my city actually in Detroit, Michigan or decriminalized recently. Very recently they were decriminalized. So if you ever if you ever visit us, you could you could use them legally here. 100%. I mean I'm sure that that would definitely be that would be awesome.

I to me it's absurd that these things could ever be criminal in any way. I I find that absurd and I find it uh honest as a person I find it insulting uh to human intelligence to say that um certain plants which which alter consciousness would be prohibited by a state I mean a government that's a good would get involved to say you couldn't take this plant whereas you could drink alcohol which results in I believe it's the fourth

you know leading cause for um I believe amongst the top leading causes for death and and that's by extension by things like reckless driving and other things is not just death by direct consumption of alcohol but what it does in society you could do that you could take cigarettes and smoke that you know if the government is so concerned about health but you could have fatty foods and you could just a person if they tried to just eat Big Macs for so many weeks in a row.

I mean, in the in the documentary, it resulted in cardiac arrest. Uh, how could it be that sacred medicine is taboo? And to me that's I I find it just I I find it so profane that the government governments in different countries actually think that they have a stake in that that we get to it's interesting because you know if you're dealing with a secular state you're not talking about an Islamic state where you know the the MUIS and the Kazies would decide what's allowed and what's not.

If you're dealing with a state where it's it's just simply like applying some sort of standard or logic or reason, well, if alcohol is legal, then either it should be illegal with all the substances or these kind of not so harmful substances should just be legal alongside alcohol. It doesn't quite make much sense. I mean, I understand the argument that it causes harm, but alcohol causes so, you know, when they say it causes harm, there is no Where is the data? You know, when they say these things that it causes harm, they say, "Well, oh, well, there's there's a chance." Of course, look, there's a chance in anything.

A person could take aspirin and react very badly to aspirin. It's not, you see, if you're just saying, look, there's speculation, but where is the data there? There there hasn't been like you could take psilocybin for example, uh, mushrooms, there hasn't been a even DMT, there hasn't been generally a single death on these things. they have highlighted. I know there's certain cases that they try to highlight but people in those cases have been doing so for example there's a case where a person has been taking cocaine taking heroin taking this drinking alcohol and taken some of these things and but these are such I mean to take a case

like that and use that as an example I find it it's once again it's just the realms are different you could not get something where which increases love compassion humanity which increases is uh which makes people actually believe in God. Uh you could not take something like this and and I'm not saying everybody should do this. Let me be clear. I make it very clear even though I'm very passionate about this genre.

Uh I make it very clear that this is not for everybody just as anything is not for everybody. And somebody said that look in the comments that uh they said um oh right I'm just trying to find the comment. I heard from a doctor that psychedelics don't always give you the positive effect. Uh often it's negative. I mean often I don't know which doctor said that clearly doesn't have the data often but to say that worsens patients mental conditions.

So okay I know of certain cases when possibly speaking of psychosis but look what I'm trying to say is that I don't believe this is for everyone and I would never say it's for everyone just as anything is not for everyone. Going to the gym could be entirely reckless for somebody with a particular debilitating condition. If you've got if you've got something that let's say you going to the trying to lift weights is going to like let's say you've got a spine condition spine where it's it's incredibly delicate.

You trying to go to the gym is devastating. I mean it's not it's not healthy for you and it will just result in severe damage. anything just saying well you know if you've got issues with your joints and you say well I want to take up jogging this is actually detrimental for you in that condition so not everything mo at least for the most part everything is is not for everybody so I'm not trying to say that people should just go go out there and do these things and I also feel that it's this is it's something very I do treat I I feel that it is sacred and it's for serious ious people, you know, people are of

that path. It's not it's not a joke and it's not something which is uh for people to take as a recreational kind of entity. It's not like not to mix this up with things like people smoking weed and pot and stuff like that. That's a very entirely recreational activity. Nothing to do with God and nothing to do with um the spiritual realm or the realm of consciousness.

That's just purely duni. Right. Right. I understand what you're getting at. Yeah. Definitely. But yeah, these were my my thoughts. There's definitely I mean this is a very interesting conversation. Just for the record. I mean my opinion about these things has not been expressed. Right. It's just a dear muy because a lot of people will take this out of context and say oh why did is it true that you said this about I mean I hear all kinds of crazy things. Just for clarification sake this is not so for example this is not uh saying that go do this and I've said that very clearly it's not for everybody and it's something sacred it's not something which is to be taken lightly and it's not recreational and if

anybody's embarking on these things recreationally that's wrong in my I feel that's almost like a sacrilege it's kind of reckless. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's it's reckless. It's not, you know, that's not what these things are. And then each country has its legalities and they have their own laws and they have their and different countries vary on them. Uh, but my point was I'm not and and you've not said this and I'm not projecting this onto you. I was just bringing this up as trying to say, well, I do feel that many these things definitely catalyze uh a particular journey to God.

Now I'm not saying you you can't attain that without it. But I do feel that the profoundity of certain journeys that have been undertaken I I feel were definitely this me to me that it's likely that these were an ingredient in that and even with people like Maana Jalaludin or I'm just this is my speculation. I could be entirely wrong.

Yeah. I mean anything is possible in Allah. I mean, I'm interested. I'm definitely interested to to see research on that and, you know, in terms of studying what was written by him and if the, you know, if that's the case with the reads and the drinks and things like that. Um, no, I'm definitely fascinated. I mean, I have no bias with the truth one way or the other. If it turns out to be true, I mean, that would be something interesting to, uh, you know, to get to the bottom of, but um, I think that, like you said, many spiritual traditions have kind of in incorporated certain substances into their rituals.

I mean, it's not, you know, not officially done or I guess not over the table done in Islam. So I have no idea you know what place it ever had among Muslims but it's not impossible you know I think it's ironic actually you'll find that most religious traditions shun uh any kind of sacred medicine because they feel that it robs them of the claim to right spirituality and if it can be induced like if let's say I'm a very spiritual person and I say well you could just eat something and become spiritual then it kind of makes me a bit redundant because I had to take 30 years to get here.

Right. Right. So this is why it's interesting because Rick Straussman when in on and he was like a leading researcher on DMT right through from the 80s into the '9s and um and his videos are on YouTube and he's the author of the book the spirit molecule. Now he speaks about in the beginning when he was with the Buddhist community and he started getting exploring DMT on his own when he told them about it and his research and he started writing he was uh I mean they had not only a falling out with him they actually excommunicated him.

Oh wow. The Buddhists actually, you know, anathematized him and did their version of calling him a kafir because they asked him to stop writing about this making these claims about DMT that it can induce these spiritual states of consciousness and and because he he was arguing that that the states that it would bring would excel if not match it would excel the meditative kind of states that the Buddhist interesting induce.

So they excommunicated him in the end and they he wasn't allowed to be part of their kind of convent or whatever it was and um and so you find often religious um you know religious institutions will not look sympathetically upon this because not because of the I mean the intoxicating element some some may argue it's an intoxicant obviously that's a different discussion it's not an intoxicant but that's a different discussion but most religious ious organizations including Buddhists or other traditions they condemn it because it's too much they feel that it's a

cheat that how can you become spiritual by eating something uh I it doesn't make sense like you need to like I've done this for 20 years you can't just come and eat something and become spiritual and I get that and I I appreciate and to be fair decades of a discipline will have a different result this is just say, you know, if it's a a roller coaster of a ride, it's not the same as, you know, if you've been disciplined in something for 20, 30 years, that's definitely no.

And you see, and it should be caution because you definitely meet people when I talk about Sufism who say, "Oh, I'm interested in spirituality, you know, I've done DMT or whatever these other substances, but they've never actually done anything." And they talk about, you know, experiencing ego death, but you know, you see them living egotistical lives. I mean, not that I'm not as well, but, you know, I don't claim to have experienced ego death at the same time. So I understand there should be a caution towards any type of solution that's a quick fix. You know there is no quick fix to spirituality.

So if these things were to have a place like hypothetical if Mhm. Roomie were to be using these things again not saying it happened but hypothetically I think he would say you can't just use it on its own and just say okay I'm done kalas like would have to go along with other it's like anything look it's like let's say a person goes to the gym or a person goes jogging the ultimate goal is health and and it's improving yourself because that improves life like you have a better immune system you have a better self-awareness you your confidence improves you can it's better productivity in life.

the actual gym thing and it has to be a lifelong thing you know a person goes to the gym even let's say a person took a shortcut people go to the gym they take steroids right sure you will get results it's a shortcut but then the the the result will fade away if there isn't this consistency of a person maintaining a particular lifestyle there's a connection with God that a person has to maintain otherwise it's not about just taking something and and you now have this, you know, it's done.

That that would be ridiculous. It'd be absurd. It'd be insulting. Yeah. I get where you're coming from. Yeah. Somebody did post a question here saying that, look, sure. Um just because I said this just because you aren't gifted with these experiences, you think you can take the MT experience. Kershal. Sure. I mean, I'm not I'm not saying you know this this conversation like much like it is for the people of the path.

It is not for you know the for many people this conversation would be absurd and I and I say that knowing that it would be absurd for many people but such was the calam often people would say even um you know even people like all these mystics would often say that our words are just for the you know that don't this the people who are not of this path they can't hear us ignore ignore us you know it's not they would get they would get executed ed some of them for breaking the the the secret, you know, like halaj.

Yeah. That they Sufi said that his sin was that he exposed secrets. That was because this is the because it's the ultimate, isn't it? This this whole and it comes back to what you were saying. May Allah, you know, sanctify his secret, but keep it a secret. You know, it's about and Yeah. And so, and in line with that comment, somebody had said that look, there were whole cities and centuries of Muslim mystics.

The answer is not they weren't all accidentally getting high in terms of the specific example in terms of rooming. Honestly, it's a ridiculous stretch. It's if you say so. Sure. I mean, you see, it's not there's u you see these things are much more profound and pronounced than people imagine. It's not that people were getting accidentally high. It is a lifetime.

It is a path that lasted an entire lifetime. It's not something like they just stumbled upon it one day and they were now saints. It's not like that. And similarly, in fact, there's a very um Joe Rogan has one of his um his podcasts with I forgotten the name of the the person who's who speaks of uh certain Christian monks and different people that were using erotized um products.

So they so basically this fungi would grow onto certain um whether it was wheat or certain things that they had that they were using to make bread and other stuff out of but it it would get there's urgot this particular fungus that would kind of affect it and it would grow but but but fungi or much of of fungi sorry uh or definitely several features especially urgot for example it is hallucinogenic.

It is psychedelic. Fascinating. So just because mushrooms are just fungi. They're fungi. They're not plants. So the thing is that in that case all these monks and he had this book on it. You see they were consuming and he's showing from the research uh erotized kind of uh staple diets. Now, this was obviously it wasn't and you had entire people in regions consuming it cuz this this is naturally growing stuff.

It's not you wouldn't know because it's not like what if you had bread that was fergatized like the the wheat and these things were uh sorry erotized. You wouldn't people wouldn't generally know. It's not like an obvious thing and it wouldn't necessarily have that effect. Maybe some people were consuming more, maybe some people weren't. And it's not, you see, today we live in a day and age where everything you pick up a product and it tells you everything's on it.

It's labeled, right? It's not as simple as that. So to say, well, you know, people never had this. They weren't just stumbling upon accidentally getting high. It's not about See, this is never, by the way, you you don't use the term high for this. Okay? You see, now that that goes to show because you people use the term high for things like cannabis and and that kind of those kind of drugs.

This is not a a drug in that sense. You you don't say a person is high on mushrooms. That's that's I mean you could but that's not that's not what that's not what it it doesn't produce a high. Okay. So it's it's more but anyway so the point I just want to read that comment because the person said it. So I think it's true you can't really um you can't prove these things.

We can't prove that that's the case, but we can speculate looking at some evidences, looking at when people write and especially the mystical experiences like when they write about and and they write about these things in their books and good luck with that. Try and read it and understand what on earth are they even talking about. What are these worlds that they speak that they've experienced? They say, "I've experienced the Malakut realm and the Jabarut realm and the realm of this and there were lights and there were these things and there was what are they talking about when they say all these things?

What worlds were they in?" And when they say, "Oh, I went to this realm and the spirit of here the spirit of Abu Bakr symbolically represents this world and this represents that world and then they like planets and I don't know because to me we can all just guess. I would assume hm that's very esoteric speech which is um but yeah I I don't know it's all part of the legacy this kind of talk and a lot of mystics have it and uh obviously Arabi has it all these great I mean especially that tradition um as well

arguably I mean has a a lot as well which people would say um is quite can be bewildering I suppose to certain people could It could be. I don't know. Allah. It's But I just I I thought it's interesting because somebody had mentioned it and it got me all triggered on the on the subject. But is there I know we've taken loads of your time as well. Is there something to to kind of conclude a particular favorite uh as an that you'd like to share as an extract from Molana Jalali or something that comes to your mind they think yeah this is an epic takeaway for people to

oh definitely one um you know one one favorite I have from Sadi that really I think talks about uh kind of the essence of of Islam really it's just it's just a few lines uh it's it's only three uh three couplets it says The sons of Adam are limbs of a frame. For in creation, from one soul they came. So the sons of Adam means human beings. And when he says limbs of a frame, he means they're body parts of one body.

Humanity is a body. And you know, Arabs, Persians, South Asians, Chinese, etc. were all different limbs of this body, right? But they came from one essence, from one soul. So the sons of Adam are limbs of a frame. For in creation from one soul they came. Then he says if hard times cause one member to feel pain at ease and rest the others can't remain. So just like a body if a piece of it is hurt if a toe is stubbed your whole body is upset.

Right. That's the hadith as well isn't it? The whole body. Yeah. What is the the do you have these there as well? Uh yeah. So he says or sometimes So the other parts cannot feel ease you know if the other uh if one limb hurts the other limbs can't feel ease if I stub my toe my whole body will be upset right if I break my finger god forbid my whole body will feel upset so if one part of humanity is suffering then all

of humanity should feel suffering and then he ends it he says Which means if a limb's in pain and you do not care the title human being, you can't share. So if another human is in pain and you're just heedless, you don't care about the suffering of others. It's not worthy to call you a human being. So this is not only the essence of Islam as per the hadith that you have mentioned, but it's the essence of of being a human is to be concerned with the welfare of others, to care for others, to have love for others.

And a concluding thought and other thoughts that was a poem is I would urge all the Muslims and all non-Muslims as well who are listening to explore the Islamic tradition not just what has been handed down from your from your parents or not just what the Friday imam from the pulpit tells you this is Islam explore Islam on your own you know the Quran always talks about and and you know and it says you know those who think you know this is for the people who think about Islam explore Islam read books about Islam on your own.

Make it a personal journey, not just something that has handed down to you. Amen. And any favorites of molana room before we before we go? Anything you want to share? Is there a couplet or a particular There there's just a beautiful a beautiful Let me bring it up. Unfortunately, uh I don't have it memorized. So, you know, it's a fault of mine. We should always strive to memorize. It's part of uh the Islamic tradition where such a beautiful such a beautiful uh you know couple lines.

So room says So he says, "Oh lover, get rid of your tricks and your games and your, you know, these things of the world. Go crazy. Go crazy." Okay.

What's that in the far go crazy? Okay. Become a come out of this fiery heart. This heart that's full of worries and pain. Become a butterfly. Become a moth. become a butterfly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. It's it's so so beautiful, you know. And then he says, And then he says, "Your entire being must become the soul for you to be worthy of the beloved." And if you're going towards the drunkards, go drunk.

Go drunk. Such a beautiful How did he say that? How does he say that? Masture. Masture. Yes, of course. Okay. So beautiful. Wow. No, that's epic, man. That's uh and what a what a what a kind of beautiful kind of metaphor to end it on because the symbolism in the the parana or the the moth and the flame is in the sense it is so drawn to it.

It is inexplicably and illogically drawn to it to its own. It has to ultimately and but it has to ultimately self annihilate in it. Yeah. Burn up and and that's the the kind of the yearning towards God that transcendental love and ultimately resulting in that ego death. Yeah. You're asking being destroyed.

Yeah. Because that that you result in that that ego death has to kind of flame up and then what is left is alah subhan allah. What a beautiful note to end on. Ah that's uh so powerful shukranas for really taking the time. My pleasure. Thanks for having been amazing.

I really enjoyed this discussion. I'm I'm so glad we we managed to to have this. Um for people who um you do have a course, don't you? Um for I do. It's running. It's about to run. If anybody's interested, do you want to uh say anything? My uh my name is is my username uh on social media shades. So you can find me on Instagram, on Twitter, and there's also Persian poetics on Instagram and Twitter.

Persian poetics.com is where you'll see course sign up on one of the tabs. You can sign up for a course that I'm going to start soon. It's all covering female poets of all types, Sufis, non-Sufis, and very interesting to see, you know, the the feminine perspective in medieval Islam. So very old poems, you know, from a,000 to, you know, 400 years ago, 200, 100 years ago, and it's covering all kinds of, you know, interesting topics. I won't give it away, but it's very interesting. I I wanted to kind of highlight the female the feminine perspective that's kind of been unfortunately looked over.

Thank you. So uh it would be a pleasure to see any of you especially those who are you know engaged in the chat to uh join us and and be my guest in in the course in Persian poetics. If you just look up my name it'll come up people. So check that out to uh to go and learn. There's a lot to I have to say I've taken a look at some of those pages. They look incredibly interesting.

So shukran once again for giving us the time people those of you who are just tuning in today make sure you do like and spread the love people and do subscribe subscribe to Ustad's page as wellad and Persian poetics and have an awesome day wherever you are may Allah bless you all and keep you smiling and beaming with that love. Amen people.

Amen. Take care and goodbye to everyone. Goodbye people. I'm putting up my exit page. Do like.