Optimism, Psychology & Veganism | Meetup - 2026 - Mufti Abu Layth

[music] Allahbar. So let me just [snorts] get all of this firing up.

Right. Just going to check all of this is live. Um, right. Okay. Right. So, for

Allahbar people. New year of Allahbar. Wow. 2026. Allahbar. How

right? Yeah. Where have you been? Right, as we begin, I'll Some people are tuning in. You can spread the love. I thought with a new year, we must have a stream. I can connect with you guys. Say salam.

See your blessed some of your blessed faces and your presence. Allah abar. Yeah. And I guess it's that time of year that people worldwide, humanity for the most part is united in a reflective consciousness, albeit momentary, but it is.

People reflect, they resolve to do things, they [gasps] uh you know make plans, anticipations, expectations, ambitions and this is what life is in essence. This is what life is and

it's what on every and any such occasion embrace it with that positivity that you know that that great things are always going to happen to me. There will be countless blessings, abundance, joy.

Yeah. And and you will find more often than not people who have that expectation from Allah, they go on to find that they go on to you know such people are often always encountering blessings. Yeah. So, and it often comes back just to the mindset that we have.

You know, this this world is a stimulation of sorts. It's a very dream like state and that is and I love how Dr. Rert Spir he gives that uh explanation that he says nature has left hints within itself and that is our dreams.

You see, when we dream, we we experience a reality. We experience matter, people, sensations, perception, emotions, uh events, causalities. We experience all of these to the you know as real as they can possibly be experienced only to awaken to realize that well ah you know it didn't exist here in this

dunya that doesn't detract from its experience the dream was the dream was just as real, just as meaningful if we can recall it. You see that that is the challenge that our dreams evade us as we come to our wakeful state.

That is the clue of this world that this world is actually very dreamlike. It doesn't truly exist in the way we think it exists. So you think about it in such a reality where would you hide the control parts?

How where would you put the cheat codes? Because you know they will be cheat codes in a simulation. You'll hide them in the mind of the people. You see, so as they alter their mindset, their reality starts to change.

Allah Akbar, right? Let's see who has tuned in. Allah Akbar from Malaysia. Yes. Salam. Allah abbar. Likewise, a blessed happy Mubarak new year to you all. Yeah. Right.

So hey whilst people are me share some thoughts and really I'm here to let's I'll share the link shortly and people can jump on and share their thoughts and till then I'll I've been looking into some I'm always I do love certain certain areas of research, certain areas of always broadening my knowledge and

in addition and it all really complements the dean. It all comes back to the deen but especially five P's people five P's that is philosophy psychology physics poetry and perplexity perplexity the the mysticism that these things they really, you know, they uh

said something to these these fields of exploration and [snorts] I was thinking that there's many people who never really experience or even reflect with such depth on these topics and you know for a moment I was

I was contemplating would their life be easier [laughter] because ignorance in one way is bliss but then I thought to I thought the you know the the blessings that Allah has hidden in this sense of knowing the the kind of dynamic enjoyment the of this Allah abar

[laughter] what would be the point of having lived if one hadn't experienced you know such pleasures that truly I mean there are I mean there are pleasures of the body and there are pleasures of the soul and the pleasures of the soul are the intellectual pursuits and so and by soul there because the psyche is ultimately a facet of the soul.

So I was reflecting on some topics And I was reflecting on a broad theme of truth. And what is truth? You know, and the more we look into something, the grainier it becomes.

And you know from a distance it's it may appear very simple but as we draw near like what is actually truth and is it something that humans are entirely even capable of? And what does that even mean?

You know when I was listening to some lectures especially within Lanian psychoanalysis and Lan he had said you know that the truth that I the truth speak and this had kind of and and there's all these you know this this whole debate that emerges of truth truth that what exactly is it?

And if we were to say, well, alak in Arabic, Alak, and I suppose Alak is is Allah, you know, because that is how Allah identifies himself. That's one of his names. So in that sense, one would argue that well, if Allah is the truth, humans would never be truly capable of the truth

because if it is Allah, then it could never truly or rightfully or entire highly be expressed or could it? So [snorts] yeah,

and I know at one stage you might say, well, the truth is simply a statement, you know, more or less correspondence theory of Aristotle. You know, I say I'm holding a cup and therefore I'm holding a cup and that is true. Sure.

I mean to to to an extent that you know it corresponds with what you are experiencing but many things don't correspond and you know something may be perceptibly accurate or maybe not for us to kind of go along with it as truth because you know you have let's say in the Quran in about The Allah says that that these hypocrites they come to you

to the messengerool they testify that you areasool yet Allah testifies that they do not speak the truth but that statement did correspond according to correspondence theory. So yet here Allah says it is not the truth.

And so this question of what? So let's say a person let's say a person was to ask you how they are how do they you know how do I look or what do you think of me in terms of let's say somebody asked you to how do you perceive them in terms of beauty like how do they look

now let's say for argument sake. You thought they're ugly. Horrible mean thing. But that's precisely my point. Now, you wouldn't say that you're ugly or let's say it was a piece of art that they' done. Now, even if you perceived it to be ugly, you wouldn't say that it is ugly.

Now you would say, "Oh yeah, it's good and it's like this and because you see to say it is ugly is not just to say what you feel but it's more. There is almost an an insult that is added.

So it is greater than the sum of its parts. It is not just merely the sum of its parts. It is greater than the sum of its parts. So you it's not just 2 + 2 = 4. You've resulted with an additional expression. So it kind of brings us back to this the human expression and when we express things

we well we use language which is limited and we conceal yet reveal but you know we don't entirely. So all of these things fall into our sense of that there is a kind of dynamism which we understand as a kind of good enough truth.

you know to borrow the phrase from Winnott the psychoanalyst that this good enough truth is what humans deal with. Yeah, it is a fascinating one could say well you could take the verse of the Quran where Allah is

citing and bringing the moment where Allah addressed Musam and Allah says and I believe in the other but there's a slight variation in both verses as in they're not symmetrical.

And that's not to say, well, well, which one is it then that Allah said, but it's to say that it's all true. That if you're to say, well, no, well, either it's said in this way or it was said in this way, so which one is true?

They are both true. And that goes to show well that's because you misunderstand what you mean by truth. So yeah, this makes us reflect and sometimes some maybe a person might

recall an event or a memory. But maybe some parts of it they you know miss recall. I remember reading um travels with Epicurus and in it uh what's the philosopher's name? Is it Daniel Clay or But he's speaking about when and he's an old man at that stage in his 70s and he's reminiscing about this thing he'd heard

and said when he was a student at university and he engaged that I I believe it was Eric Ericson. He's speaking about a lecture from Eric Eric Ericson or something like this and how he said something and the response that the professor had said. Now at a certain point in his story he says well or in the book he says well at somebody once says to him are you sure you said that or wasn't it your friend sitting next to you who asked the question

and then he addressing the audience says well you know even if it were that he misremembered and remembered himself as the voice the articulating voice does it make it any less true and it's a fascinating discussion you see so you know the other day I

was listening to one of John Ilia's poems and this line that this couple couplet from it that I'd heard for years Now I'd heard it misheard it all these years. [laughter] So John Elia's very famous the one where he says u that

um herself of his it became you know ground like it's a so viral everybody knows it and and he has this um there's so many iconic lines in it um that you know he has this these whole but there was this line in it that I had heard from years ago but apparently misheard.

And he says in it that um that my every statement went ineffective.

It it didn't you know it didn't render any um it was useless every expression. Is there an imperfection in my articulation?

Now here's the thing. I had misheard this all these years to mean um to mean that I thought he'd said that every statement of mine affected every heart.

>> [laughter] >> You see, so is there something wrong with the way I articulate that? Why is it that every time I speak I that I have such an effect on people? One could say, you know, what comes to mind is Midas is the touch of Midas. You know, whatever he touched the Greek tragedy turned to gold or Oscar Wilds that there are only two tragedies in life.

One is not getting what you want and the other is getting what you want because that's what's happening here. And so I just couple of days ago was listening to his poetry and it was written and John and it said and I thought damn is that what he said.

[laughter] So is how I had remembered it. Now does that make this poem any less true? And I thought that is such a surely in my perception made it so much more effective almost the human tragedy that one could say is imagine getting what you want.

[laughter] Now what Allahb yeah I thought I'd reflect and share some philosophical discussions with you guys. I mean, what am I going to do then? If I don't share it with you guys, I'm just going to look into a talk to the wall.

You know there's one of our teachers when years back uh she abd Allah bless him and used to teach a sahi Muslim and I was the nominated self-nominated [laughter] the uh what would you call the person I suppose the the kind of so you had a lead pupil or a lead student that would read the text aloud allowed in class and so I was that person in his class.

Now he had this thing that he would uh begin the lesson in Arabic and he would articulate the murbs and the differences and and he would do all of that in Arabic and then he wanted you to not only recall what he said but recall it verbatim. I mean that's taking the mick really. I mean one is to recall what I'm saying but to recall it word for word like if I use the preposition to you say to if I said and you say and if I said then and I remember [laughter] he would do this

Arabic and and some of the especially the local students they would be well perplexed and this and he would often say [laughter] when get wound up. He would say, he would say, "And I'm just here [laughter] just kind of brushing off my Arabic to all of you." He goes, [laughter]

"Where else am I supposed to speak my Arabic?" It's like I can hardly sit on a bus in Karachi and speak Arabic. So obviously I'm going to speak it to you guys. [laughter] So I guess the tragedy is the same here. Where else do I share these philosophical musings of mine and these meanderings except with you guys. So Allah Allah right now let me see what are people saying.

Allah some people let me share I don't know what [sighs] let me share this uh where did it go yeah so whilst I share this what I will say whilst I'm doing that is that you know with these things like New Year's and any look, life is

a series of excuses and opportunities. That's all life is. Excuses to get things done, opportunities to do things. That's all it is. is any and every moment you can to experience that if you can make memories if you can there's people you know this discussion I really I mean these things are really so outdated and but people being unsure

that oh can I oh it's New Year's am I allowed to even see this as a new year in almost in in in in one could say a celebratory sense. Obviously, it's an academic calendar new year. Nobody's going to deny that. But, you know, can I see it as something? Maybe I should do something. Maybe I shouldn't. Is it haram? Is it Look, if people out there believe these things are haram, if they do, I don't, you know, there's all sorts of people that believe all sorts of things.

If a person believe, if you believe something, it is for you to believe. It is not for you to >> [laughter] >> um assert or force your beliefs onto other people. People believe, you know, you if if that is your belief, sure. I'm not really addressing you then. I'm not trying to convince you. I'm not trying to, you know, you have your belief.

But other people, these are moments of reflection. They are moments to to create memories as well. They're an excuse. They are an opportunity to gather one's resolve to share experiences, memories maybe with your children, maybe with your family, maybe with your friends to this is what life is about.

It's not this an iman is not this fragile this uber lightweight substance that we're dealing with. And I was reflecting on this. I was thinking that in many ways it's a shame that or it's definitely an enigma that if we reflect and I'm possibly much older than many of you watching this now up to in this old age right so

if let's say my parents' generation people who came to the UK probably, you know, late60s, early '7s, mid70s, people like that that lived here when there wasn't really a sense of community here, when they knew almost nothing, very little about Islam, when I don't think there were any masids around at that point and very few people prayed, very few people now I'm just describing it.

I'm not saying whether the I'm not passing judgment on that. I'm just describing that was the they were just working. As they started to settle here, they brought their families. They set up little masids. They got, you know, went into the 80s. people, you know, young Muslims were born now in this country for the first time to that first settled community.

Their faith was never shaken by these things that they didn't see these things as a they just recognized them as culture that we're in a different country. Sure, you know this. And the [snorts] irony is decades later, we now have so much Islamic resources and knowledge and uh lectures and books and massages and community.

But we have such a kind of phobia of losing our iman at every step step and stage. Oh my god, I might, you know, do kufur. Oh my god, I might do kufur. our belief in Allah is not that weak that it would you know oh that we all of a sudden stop believing in Allah. So these things like I said life is all about excuses and opportunities and by excuses I mean an excuse to turn it into an opportunity.

So you know you can share some moments, share some memories, share some experiences, right? Let's uh have I shared the link I've heard, by the way, uh I mean since I'm sharing the link, did somebody here say chof?

Is that what there was a comment? Are you speaking about the pis the there was an incident in Birmingham. Sheh Assar had uh turned up to where the chief of Bir had come and I think that and I think I believe I watched a clip where she Asar said he's just returned from the debate with the Shia.

On a separate note, I have been asked to possibly review that by some friends. I don't I don't know. I'm in two minds. I have I'll watch it first, reflect and then maybe I'll review it. I'll have to see. Depends. I'll have to watch it. You see, I don't I don't really like these kind of debates.

Shia Sunni kind of I feel these things only fragment our communities. You know it's different with atheism and theism because we the whole world humanity is going through these shifts and stages of consciousness and to speak about the proofs for the existence of God or have that challenged or to discuss certain things I don't you know I I find very interesting and enjoyable

but the whole Shia Sunni thing it is look it is what it is you know people most say they're born Sunni now we are Sunni okay and then most she are just born Shia and you will get some crossovers I get that but really this kind of debate because it the issue is it kind of nests or it's anchored in so much emotion that I feel it only does harm because you're evoking so much emotionality

that yeah so I just don't but I will consider I will have to watch the debate and then consider I did you know somebody sent me the um there was the preconditions to the debate or something and I watched I did watch a lot of that. Now obviously she I know and and for and in recent years at least I have actually and I have spoken on very good terms and you know very respectfully and things like

that. and Sheh Hassan Kadari from the Shia. I have actually met him as well and I met him a few years ago. He came to visit me with um there was there was like a delegation of a group of uh Shia and some uh there was some uh scholars amongst them like very academic academic scholars.

There's a a she Iran Ali I believe his name is. He was one that had graduated from Iran and from the Hat and studied here. Very, you know, an outstanding intellectual. He lives in Canada, I believe, in Toronto. And and Shikh Hassan was with him and a few other people from the Shia community.

And we must have you know we we had we had a very um engaging evening. I mean right through right from the evening till the morning we were sitting discussing uh dialogical you know it was a dialogue. It was mainly between I suppose she Iran and me and and then there were other people involved and it wasn't just but it was overall a very pleasant exchange.

It wasn't something I mean we disagreed one could say staunchly on our opinions but it was overall it wasn't a kind of rude or anything and uh my experience of the brothers uh including she Hassan at that time uh was you know it was wonderful they it was and and every person had their own struggle every person was going through something very you know their own challenge in life and so but I you know

the preconditions I wasn't really I I saw a bit of that and I saw this thing where she Hassan had said um you know oh you can't say otherwise I will leave the debate I'm not sure if that happened during the debate because I haven't watched the debate but I did find that a very um disappointing to even hear that being put forward as a condition and to be fair in all fairness I think there was say Ali there as well who I have you know very good communication with we

speak every now and then from the Shia community from um I don't know if he still is with the channel or not but many years ago he was with it I don't know if he still is But very once again, you know, very good alak and I think on the clip he was saying he was kind of pressing for, you know, we don't need to have a condition like that. But I don't know what came of it in the end.

I did think look there is a difference between um a kind of like an [snorts] insult and a a praise. Now somebody could from his she Hassan's argument well you might be praising some people who we seem see in negative light but in all fairness many of the ayatas like I'm sure many like from the top of my head ayatistani and a few others they've given the fatwa that to insult the or swear at or insult or

curse the ram or sunnah the symbols of a sunnah is haram. Now I'm not saying all the Shia follow that fatwa but I this is from the Shia as well but even I don't mean to insult but at the very least if of obviously Sunnis are going to adorn with praise the companions. So once again this kind of a debate I don't know where it will just rile up emotions and and is this something I will contemplate that right I I was speaking about the the

chirab incident and shehas turned up and uh from what I saw and the chab has kind of disappeared. See the thing is I don't look I don't know whether chuff be I see I don't even know his name so I'm not trying to insult him this is just what he's become known as [laughter] chu chuab I'm not saying it in a way to be insulting to him because look maybe in his heart he believes he's doing something helpful and many people who do go to him see him

in this way and obviously there is the placebo effect and and I'm sure in that way many people do feel they are being helped but you know this is the problem isn't it that you see there comes a point where you see when you know this thing of where the dean then starts getting ridiculed and you you know each to their own.

I don't more than the beef sub I feel it's really people who need to be educated because the beef sub you know people are going to be out there selling whatever they want to sell you know everybody's going to set up shop now the question is why do you go to certain things and cuz I guess it's that kind of herd mentality isn't it that I think because we I think you know this or as lan said that you know the mises isn't it the whole mimemetic

uh experience that pe desire is the desire of the other that's what it is isn't it what the mimemetic uh mimisis right so the whole mometic where you get the word I guess meme from I know we mean meme nowadays to something funny but the original word meme. So desire is the desire of the other.

So what people desire we find desirable and that's how a lot of human desire actually works and that's part of the symbolic order. So right let's uh let's see a few people I feel have joined. Let me just check. Somebody said, right, let me share this.

All right. All right. We've got here, >> happy new year. >> Likewise. Happy and blessed new year for you too. May Allah make it one of and how are you doing? [clears throat] What >> what's going on?

>> Thank you very much. Home at the moment just doing a bit of work as you guys can see. >> Allahbar working away. Working away even on >> Yeah, that's it. earning that money trying to get a house deposit together. >> Um >> you see you see that in many ways that you see in many ways the the pursuit of something keeps us going.

>> Yeah. >> You know it really in many ways it really does and we that people need a a why. They need a pursuit even if it's something they feel they would rather not have. So even a struggle whatever the struggle whether it's to work whether it's to do something >> in many ways it keeps people alive and there's um fascinating experiment done initi done with mice actually the universe 25 and I uh implore people to

research it and just watch it on YouTube where they made this paradise for mice. Everything they could want was there. And at first the mice flourish. And then they get to a point where everything is turned on its head. And the mice they they it's just chaos. You know, the mothers start killing their infants. They start it just turns into like a hell hole that they had to stop the experiment.

And and one of the reasons was that this almost this lrangeian point this kind of balancing point of survival was removed where things were just all um provided or given because it >> takes away doesn't it? There's um I was reading the just was it yesterday I was reading about um uh it was it was it was also it was to do with you know um Mira engineer from Pakistan.

He had come out from prison and he'd given some interviews and it was to do with his podcast interview or something but he was speaking about the blasphemy laws in Pakistan and why they how they wrongly abused and everything and he gave this example of this bishop in Pakistan. So a Christian Pakistani bishop that was wrongly imprisoned and given the the kind of death penalty but they didn't kill him but they gave him the judge had to give him this penalty.

So he says that and the judge knew he hadn't actually done it but he felt that if he didn't give him that sentence then the public might just turn on the judge. So the judge did it and then the judge turns up afterwards um and apologizes to him in private and says look I'm really sorry this I had to sentence you this way but and I know you haven't really blasphemed but you know I have no other choice and so at the time because there was a moratorum on death penalty in Pakistan and so they had he had life imprisonment

so He for many years fights his appeal and they I was reading that I think after something like was it 15 or 18 years something like 15 years I think he finally gets this appeal through finally gets it through and he's released and as he's released 3 days later he dies a natural death he's quite relatively old and He dies a natural death like 3 days after his release and >> and and that's

beside I mean in addition to being an absolute tragedy and a travesty of the laws there but also it's reflective of this will to fight for something and you know to kind of survive and as that will is finally kind of gives way because now you've got it.

It kind of you go into this mode of you know people and you'll find that that isn't just there. It's in many stories that people fight till the end and then they just kind of just pass and it's not in that sense but um reflective of the endeavor a proverb I learned many years ago when I learned Arabic that they were speaking about it's actually a fable you know based on animals and things and it speaks of the cow and it says the that that the cow is all complaining

about kind of working hard. Uh and it said, you see, but it would rather just chill and just eat and graze and just but by doing so it would just become fatten itself and by fattening itself it would just get slaughtered and eaten. But not to put a somber twist on that but coming back to >> how has how have you been and what's been preoccupying your precious things?

Yeah. >> Can I Is it okay if I could have two questions? One's for me and >> Well, look, you just >> one for Denise. Denise is actually out doing something. If I could ask >> Oh, yeah. Sure. Sure. Go for it. Go for it. >> Say again. >> Yeah, of course. For you for you for you. I I'll disconnect the stream and just [clears throat] do a whole live stream.

>> I'll ask you. [laughter] I've loved that more than anything. >> You know, I I I I for you, of course. I say all of this and then I I say all of this and then I just disconnect Fad's call. [laughter] >> No, no. Fire away. Fire away.

>> Okay. All right. I'll ask I'll ask contemporary one that it probably um affects Muslims all over the West. So let me explain this to you and this will probably >> in the UK as well and algae and things like >> Yeah. Yeah. So basically what happens in Australia when you go to your supermarkets um they have meat and they get their um meat from halal suppliers right if you're following me.

So what what the am said in Australia the reason why it's um doubtful or not permissible to eat that meat even though was coming from a halal supplier to cut the beef to cut the chicken to package it up. Um can I please ask I did look at something on um Monday nights with Miy uh on your um web page. I couldn't find something I found something similar but maybe can you elaborate on on this and what's the Mali?

>> I don't understand the question. So it is halal or >> opinion on this? It is halal. >> Oh no. Okay, I'll repeat my Yeah, it's actually halal meat from the butch from the supplier. >> What is the point of contention? So what's the contention if it is halal? Why? Why the contention? >> Halal meat. Yeah. The point of contention is they use the same like a supermarket butcher. They use the same knife, the same knife or the same utensil to cut the pork, to cut the beef, halal beef, and to cut the pork and to package it up to sell it to the customers in retail.

Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean this Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course I I understand that >> you see this level of kind of um obsessive detail >> is not sought after by the Sharia. And and a fine example of that is that look the >> the so I mean two examples jump straight at us.

Uh one the life and the s of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam himself that he would accept dawa he would accept uh invitations food invites from Jewish people. We're allowed to eat the meat from Jewish and Christian truly Christian and truly Jewish people. We're allowed to eat their meat. Now, Christians are allowed to eat pork according to their religion.

So, if you went to a Christian's house, it's very likely they use the same utensils. >> So, the so the Quran, if this was to be an issue, it would have addressed it. The prophet himself, when he went to these invites, he would have addressed this issue. He didn't because the surely when they're inviting him and they're non-Muslims and they're cooking their meat, surely they're using the same utensils.

In fact, Immalik's fatwa was that he didn't he wasn't really fond of uh marrying Christian women. Um I don't mean for himself obviously not but he for the other people people in general. Uh the reason being is because and this is the same fatwa by Imam Ahmed as well by the way just in case the you know some people of a salify persuasion are listening.

So, and you know to them obviously Imam Ahmed is possibly much more of a um you know somebody they tend to follow that the fatwa is that Imam Malik said the reason he didn't like those interfaith marriages was because you have no right to prevent her from eating pork and keeping pork and cooking pork at home.

And he said, "And you have no right to prevent her from keeping alcohol at home because that's her faith and her freedom." So he said that and because you have no right to prevent her from doing it, it doesn't mean she will do it, but she has the right to do it. And he said then it's there's a likelihood that your children may grow up eating that and drinking that. So this is why he said he didn't like the whole interfaith marriages.

Now he could have just said no you you know you know people think it's all patriarchy and all this kind of stuff back projected you know he could have just said you tell her behave watch yourself or the backhand or any of no none of this he never said he said that you have no right it is not permissible for you in Islam to prevent her from something which she has a right to in her religion and she's not a Muslim so and this is the same fatwa endorsed by Imam Ahmed as well.

So the uh for the same reason why he also discouraged the inter the interfaith because they have what he felt [cough] was an a non vi an inviable right an inalienable right to eat pork and have pork and cook pork at home and he felt that you know as a Muslim you don't really want that happening around your kids so it's better not to do it.

What would have been easier was their fatwa to say you forced them not to do it. But actually they didn't say that. They said that you know you should not embark upon that path then. So that's um so that's very clear. The other thing is that you know this thing of becoming obsessive.

There is a narration in the m of uh Imam Malik where Omar is they approach this kind of small one could say like a pond. It's like a pond somewhere. And as they're there, the um some of the companions go to drink water.

And so one of the companions has this thought that wait a minute, actually maybe wild animals come and drink water from here. So maybe they've done hunting, maybe they've got like foul blood on their mouth, maybe, you know, they've they come and take a leak or poo in this kind of thing. Like we don't know like in this pond, like I don't know. Like maybe they do stuff like here.

So he says, so he gets this even though the water seems fine, but it's a pond and you can't necessarily see right through it to the to the base. So he says, you know, he calls out to the owner of the the the the area they're on, the kind of field, uh it wasn't a field, but that area, and who owns the the pond as well, because you know, it's his thing.

So he says, "Oh, the one who owns this pond." He said, "Do wild predatory animals, hunting animals, do they come and drink from your this pond?" And this is in the m um so Omar says before he could answer, he says, he says, "Yeah, says don't even answer that." He says,

you know, on God's green earth, we like we drink from where animals drink from. Where animals drink from, we drink from. Don't even answer this question. We and the meaning of this is and Imam Malik brings this is because we are not mandated to be seeking out that kind of detail. And if you start seeking it out, what happens is it can become destructive.

It's very kind of like an obsessive and OCD can really grip the mind of people and destroys people. You know, I have, you know, even on my Patreon, there's been a few people uh I mean, not the majority, but there's been a few people who I have sessions with, consultations, and their lives, you know, Allah bless them, have been riddled with was riddled with it.

And it's been like wasw wasa this OCD it can be so destructive it can be paralytic it paralyzes people. So we have to avoid these things at all costs. So yes that's hopefully that answers uh the question. Yeah >> thank you somebody said perfect. Thank you for my question.

Look, somebody and somebody said here, look, that could it be that there's blood still on this meat and so on and so forth. Look, even if there's blood on the meat in the Christian's house where you can go to eat, they could be he could have just cooked pork. Allah doesn't say you can. When Allah says in the Quran, you can eat from the homes of Christians, he doesn't say, oh, you have to ask them to have cooked your meal separately.

That's no prerequisite. You're allowed to eat from their meat. Now, you see this is going back into that thing. And look, even if they like if you're to say, well, they used a certain amount of they use the knife. Now, you know, there's not going to be a slice of bacon still hanging off the knife. Like, come on, let's be real. Now, even if you're to say that there's going to be some granular specks of blood, well, you're going to wash the meat anyway.

You're going to boil the meat when you take it back. You're going to We have to move away from this kryptonite kind of feeling of oh my god. Oh my god. And let's take it to the other maths. Malachia, okay, we're kind of exempt here. The other maths that say you can eat from the from the meat that dogs have hunted. Isn't the dog saliva nudges impure?

So how how well you say oh but it's okay because we wash it isn't according to the m and the m the dog saliva is according to um you know so it's as nudas as pork so okay the malik don't believe that because we believe all god's creatures are pure and including dogs including pigs we believe that everything that is alive is pure and you can't call anything impure that's living but that's the school of medina but the other mabs consider it to be nud they consider to

be some of the consider it so in that sense you can eat the meat of a dog that's gone hunting so what about that saliva that's actually entrenched inside the meat where the dog has bit bitten into the meat how do you answer that you say oh well we wash it. Well, if you wash it, you could wash this.

So, this level of OCD behavior is not sought after by the theme. Obviously, look, if a person wants to do it, it's up to them, but it's not really um sought after by the theme. >> Thank you very much. And um for my question now. [laughter] >> Oh, is there another question? I forgot.

>> All right. You know, I [clears throat] really need to [laughter] carry on. Carry on. What's your question? >> Is that okay? Or you should. >> No, no, of course. Of course. I should light up a cigar. [laughter] I'm joking. >> Okay. I'll shoot away. Um, this is a little bit close to my heart and I want you to use all your skills and all your knowledge as a Mi to answer this if you can, inshallah.

>> Um, close to your heart. Champ, [laughter] >> you you wanted to hit close to your heart with all my skill. [laughter] >> Can you please champ can you please champion the iman of Abu Talib? Um >> Oh, I have a video on that. An old video >> from Sunni sources. That's okay. Or do you need some time to do your research?

>> I have an old video on it. It is old. It's from the Monday nights days, but it I do have a video on that. Um, and there were >> any other Sunnis. >> Yeah, like Kurtoi was one of Kurtoi was one of them. Imm Kurobi. There were a few there were a few people that leaned that way in saying the and I said I too did lean that way after having read the research that Abu Talib uh, you know, may Allah be blessed with his afterlife.

It appeared to me I was persuaded by having read the arguments that he was a believer even if he didn't you know the famous narration that he didn't say say it um that that people say you know he said oh you know what will they say of me but the evidence does appear that he was a believer and so and people challenge that I understand and and the mainstream Sunni view is that he isn't and obviously I accept that and I'm not here to um you know say people who believe that way this you know I don't know to kind of criticize them or

something. No, not at all. You know they have the evidences and that's fine. But I did find that the evidences that a lot of that have been presented and this by the way like I said you'll have to watch the video but I do cite certain Sunnis. I know from the top of my head Immorti I I still recall him but there's there are others as well by the way it's not just I mean there are a minority of course nobody's trying to say there may even be an extreme minority if you're going to count you know but I do feel that the way Abu Talib uh this is why I would feel that you know Abu Talib may

Allah be pleased and bless his a and you know we say may Allah forgive his shortcomings says forgive everybody's shortcomings or forgive his uh forgive him and forgive everyone. A mean but the way he protected the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam uh right throughout the most difficult years of the early most difficult years of the dawa of Islam and he and he did it for a love of the prophet but he did protect the da'wah so he knew what he was protecting it's not

that he didn't know and he stood you know shouldertosh shoulder and in fact you fought I mean not physically but like tooth and nail one would say in the defense of Muslims like Muslims and one could argue that Islam by some extent survived by his service so is it that a person who's doing that he knows what he's doing and Allah is witnessing that so to me that in addition to other things are testament and Even the fact you know him saying oh

that I don't want people to say this to mock me or whatever you know if we take that narration but he's not saying I don't believe in what you're believing in he's just saying that look even if we take this narration to be the kind of the arbiter this narration reflects that he does seem to believe but he does there's this social peer pressure that he's succumbing to it doesn't mean that he's not you know like a simple thing would have been oh I don't even believe in your god or I don't even believe in your faith but he's not saying that so and I do have that video it is quite old

but I'm sure you'll find it in >> yeah thank you thank you so much for your time >> and I probably went over um my a lot of time [laughter] >> but it's a pleasure to see you as always Fad and always see you smiling ing. Amen. So take very good care of yourself and we'll speak soon inshallahalamu alaykum people. That was Fad from down under and all right some interesting questions there.

Um right what is going on? Malik is so interesting. It really is. You know, I have to say one, you know, there are some just joys that one really finds themsself in just such joyful uh pursuits.

Uh and one of them within the dean has to be the school of Medina. I find it just just a joy Allahbar and more often than not has always just continued to serve me with blissful kind of amusement and wonder really. Um, and that's not to say you don't get ups and downs and you won't get some malika that will always be um, you know, just just as challenging and just as difficult as others.

You will, but you'll always find some voices of reason that really do uh, they really do shine. Allah, let me see who do we have here, people. Uh Hanu somebody said Hanu I do you know what it is I don't know I love Im Abu Hanifh I feel he is an amazing gem and star of this um I do feel the problem not the early I feel was amazing

was on point the early Madhub but I feel along the way the Madhub kind of got hijacked and and then what it transmuted into um yeah I I'm not really keen with its final expression that we arrived at and I feel it's almost antithetical to the great Imam Abu Hanifh may Allah be pleased with him um that's my feeling that's the feeling of people like shehab and other hanfi as well I feel I'm pretty sure she a nadui and other uh

people feel the same that have expressed an opinion on this matter. Right. Who do we have here? Did I share that? Um, let me just share that. We have Fahim Ali Fahim. How's it going? How's it going?

We can't hear you. >> [laughter] >> Allah Allah see cuz Fahim is saying who needs speech when we can just have when we're connected through our consciousness and through our souls. Why do we I can't hear you by the way. Oh I think I Yep. You're coming through now.

>> I can loud and clear. Allahbar. Oh yeah, I just said happy new year. That's all I said. >> Allah bless this year for you and for all our viewers. May this be a a year of much abundance of much success and positivity. Amen. For all our viewers. Amen.

>> So yeah, Fahim, what's going on? What's preoccupying your precious thoughts? >> [snorts] >> Yeah. So, um, since you were talking about the Shia before, um, I was wondering if you knew what was going on between, um, the, uh, you know, the Dawa guys and Daniel Hikachu because they're all going after him now, especially >> No, I don't, you know, somebody there's, uh, somebody was messaging me from America and he was asking me this just yesterday actually.

that oh do you know about what's going on with the Daniel Haku and and I said I don't I said I I don't so he said something about he said about the Salafia the they all going for him he didn't say the Shia were going for him the >> not the not the Shia he's well I think he's defending a lot of the Shia positions so one of them >> what is he defending >> um so there's the belief that the the prophet had control over all the atoms in the universe and he's saying that it's not a kofi belief.

Uh and so basically people are calling him a sh apologist for defense for for saying >> um >> I mean that that statement of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam having control I mean what would be the the kind of like let's say the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam was granted this ability if he wanted it. I mean either way it doesn't would it make a difference to our reality or would it I don't like what is the utility or the uh objective

of this uh debate on that point. >> Uh I don't really know. Um I think the the other one that he was defending was um the 12 imams being higher than anyone except the prophet. So higher than all the other prophets. Um and so >> Okay. Okay.

>> And so then uh yeah, you know, the guys like um Jake Branatella and uh Fared responds. They're all calling [snorts] him a sh apologist for saying it's not kufur. >> Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I I would disagree with that statement of the >> Shia imams being what is it higher than the prophets and things like that.

>> Yeah. All of them except the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam. Yeah. See this I guess this is really the the challenge isn't it that the yeah the Shia really have because really you see for the Shia it has to always be the royal bloodline um of the even though the the the imams generally speaking within the Shia like the Shia imams are generally all honored and dignified and very venerated within Sunni Islam.

as well and Sunnis don't have a problem with the uh Shia imams. In fact, I would argue, you know, maybe people she some people disagree that Sunnis in some way are more because they're equally venerating of all the imams whereas the Shia for example 12vers don't really give that kind of credence to let's say those from the Hassan lineage or those that broke off from you know before Musa Imam Musal Kadim and they went with the Ismaelia kind of they broke off into that.

I don't think they uh not I don't think they don't give them the same kind of extend the same veneration or courtesy and in fact I'm pretty sure they are even critical or some people are critical of them but okay what else do they um >> uh the other one was um doing is to like Jesus >> um or like one of the prophets the prophet Muhammad >> doing what to Jesus.

What does that mean? >> Oh, I think it's Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I think the example he used was um I don't know maybe like there's a difference between a Christian praying to Jesus and then someone else doing is the author to Jesus.

Like one of them would be sha like give me an an example so as to not misunderstand this. >> Yeah. Like um >> give me in like what would it mean like give me >> Yeah. The example he gave was um maybe like a man with leprosy saying um oh Jesus like please heal me something like that. [clears throat] [laughter] >> Really like that would I don't think any Muslim would say stuff like that.

Would Muslims say stuff? You know, I do have a big problem with the like I you see there's a difference between can we use the word maybe organic ignorance which is like just on the ground a kind of ignorance that emerges amongst the masses of people like let's say they turn up to the graves of saints and >> and they may say you know and sometimes I feel that these things that these things are not Islam proper or religion proper in that way.

But there is a um I I still don't see those things as shik in that way. I see them as wrong. >> But that there [clears throat] is you see if you ask those people they say that look obviously I am not I don't believe this person's God. I just believe he's so beloved that I'm asking him to sort it out for me through God. you know, this kind of um and this is the the kind of common um the nonreligiously literate.

So, they're not really people who are so clued up about Islam. They just see your regular like there might be farmers or people in these countries that are doing this. And I feel that that there must be a sense of compassion in understanding um and it's not because it's not shik really from their way even though it comes across like that.

That said, I do find issue then with educated uh where we've kind of created a culture within Sunni Islam. Like let's say you take the Indoak thing. Now I do find issue where they will say things like um like they call Ali

the one who gets rid of all your problems. [clears throat] >> Why? Like I don't understand why we use these words because and I get it to some of them my my kind of excuse is that maybe because they've been so born and raised in this it's almost just become the inherent embedded nmanure that they use that it's not even maybe it's not even giving the meaning as they're saying it.

It's that common. I mean this is my way of you know finding like I think ah well you know maybe they're saying it like that but to me who like we don't use that all the time I find it very odd like why would we say that to anyone like we it is only Allah in that sense especially if you're literate about the dean and this is why I don't so once again if you're going to refer to uh Abdul Kad Gilani you know may Allah be pleased with him as rose spark but

you're doing it just because it's it's almost like it's become a signifier it doesn't even almost carry the meaning you're just so used to it that you don't even use it in that way it's like you know somebody here asked about uh Christmas do Muslims and Muslims don't celebrate Christmas generally speaking so you know But people might use the word Christmas just because it's lost its meaning of even the word Christ that they used it so commonly and consistently.

Oh, like they might say, "Oh, happy Christmas or Merry Christmas." They don't even you even though ethmologically you've got the word Christ in there, but it's become so commonplace that it loses its kind of meaning. And that and that happens in many cases and you see that all the time. Even in hadith literature, we're going to find that. So, in that sense, we're okay that people are using rose spark because they use it so much.

This has become a name for uh say Abdulani uh you know may Allah be pleased with him but but otherwise using these things or to teach that look why don't you it's fine to just call upon Jesus to heal you. I [laughter] mean, it's just so it's just so unwarranted, unnecessary, and and just kind of antithetical really to like I don't see why.

I could look I could understand that if a person said look if a person did this as a Muslim and they did it you know they it's probably not shik but it's still probably wrong because let's say a Muslim did this because he read the Quran and or he heard the stories of Jesus and he heard that Allah had granted Jesus this ability to do this and so he thought well that's something Allah has given to Jesus so I'm just I'm going to ask Jesus you know to So I I wouldn't say it's shik, but I would say it's wrong.

Like it's not right to do it. Um it's not how you would teach. Like I've never teach, god forbid, my kids to say things like that. But like, so one is to be compassionately excusing to people if they do it. One is to defend the the practice of it. So one is to kind of be compassionate towards the practice as in we say well okay people who did it maybe this is what they mean and you know let's let's not make too much of a big deal let's just it's not right and really we should just do this but one is to defend are you saying they're defending as in

>> no yeah so um what Daniel's saying is that they're wrong to do it like it's haram but it's not so I think similar to what you're saying as in they're not all of Islam. >> Okay. So, I misunderstood that then. Okay. Because I I thought for the love of God, I can't really picture any Muslim teaching this stuff. >> Yeah. No, no. Um but then >> you should call upon Jesus to >> Yeah.

The um the all the Salafi YouTubers, they got like um they got a document where they had like >> 30 different >> scholars or whatever sign off. Are they going? This is the old Indopac technique, isn't it? This is the whole >> This is Harame. This is the whole, you know, the Brvi kind of the classical. We're going to get loads of people to sign this. And >> yeah, they got like Adnan, Rashid, Fared, Aaz, uh Jake, um Ali, Dawa, you know, all all of those guys.

Um, and the document basically says that we disassociate from Daniel Haku because he he's spreading shik apologetics basically. And what else? Any other interesting uh intriguing opinions or was that were were these the has he become somewhat um mystical and >> or not really not?

>> No no no not I don't really watch his stuff. It's just like the drama stuff that I'm kind of keeping up with. Um I think he's just going against the Wahhabis. Um he oh he also associated a lot of them with some some of the ISIS attacks or something. So that's why they also um because I think he has a whole documentary on Wahhabis. Then he put some of their faces there saying that they were connected to the the ISIS attacks.

Um so they're also angry at that. some re some recent attacks or >> I think yeah I think I think yeah I think recent ones yeah um where he's saying >> have been recent attacks >> oh I don't the most recent one was um yeah um okay >> saying that they they resort to particular hadiths to >> you know go after innocent people >> some you know I wonder if I wonder if uh uh Daniel would uh be willing to attend a mine trap at some point.

>> I feel like he would because >> because he's >> I don't think he You think he would? >> I think so because he's he's um he's been calling out all of these all these YouTubers and scholars and they don't want to discuss with him because they don't want to associate with him at all. >> So, I feel like if someone reached out to him to like explain his side, I think he'd be >> he'd be willing to come. think you think it'd be up for a mind trap discussion about his this kind of stuff and >> Yeah.

Yeah. I I feel like he's become >> I think he's become more open-minded on a lot of these. >> I don't I don't think you would, you know. I don't think with me you've made videos about [laughter] >> No, not because of that. I No, I don't think it's um No, I'm sure I've Have I not removed the individual videos? I think I removed the individual ones. I think so. >> Oh, you have? I I don't know.

>> No, the you know the indiv many years ago a ages ago you know when I but I I don't know if but most of the individual ones I had uh unlisted obviously the main episodes are all the the whole long shows but I don't think just because of that I I didn't mean in the sense that he's uh holding a grudge although I don't know whether he is or not but I just meant in the sense of him coming on and talking to me.

Um because I just felt even then he would entirely avoid me entirely and I don't think even now he would be ready. If he is sure, you know, well, uh, Daniel, if you happen to listen to this and would love to, uh, you know, have your view express steelman, as in you want to steal man your view.

Yeah. You know, maybe we could do a mind trap at some point. That could be interesting. Um, right. >> You had um you had Jake on before a long time ago, right? >> Jake Branelli. >> Jake. Oh, yeah. Branatelli. Yes. Yes. on a Minecraft ages ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I think that was before he, you know, I don't really follow the the dwa thing, by the way. So I don't >> Yeah.

>> But >> I think with these things, this whole culture to me is very like it's it's energy not well spent, you know? It's >> it it's it's kind of this whole thing of uh this constant um it's very sectarian, isn't it? And very very like the I find that that's that if years have gone by and and as a person we're still in the same place we were more or less, then what has life taught us?

How have we developed? How have we grown? How have we where's our bond? Where's our own bond with Allah? Where's our bond with human beings? And and I think you know with age one thing that must grow in addition to so many things is our compassion our empathy or it must you know because if it doesn't then you know help us God because what cuz as an older person you must have that you must be able to view a kind of like a lens of compassion and

empathy and Um, yeah. Right. So, okay, that's an uh that's interesting. Interesting. >> Yeah. I thought for sharing that because I don't really know all of these things >> and some, like I said, somebody just asked me yesterday and I said, "Look, I don't know. I haven't really there was a debate ages ago between um um Daniel Haku and somebody else which went on for something like 5 hours.

I didn't watch it but >> yeah who was it? >> I can't remember now. It was like a a YouTuber. >> Yeah, I can't remember. But it was like a it was one that a lot of people were asking at the time and I you know I just had way too many more interesting things to do than to watch it. So but there was something that went on for very that's the first time I became aware that he okay seems to be shifting.

Um was it with Adnan Rasheed or was it >> Oh yeah it must have been with Adan Rasheed. Yeah it must have been he >> one that went on for hours and hours. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He had a recent conversation with him. It was very long. >> Um, >> yeah. You know, even look, even this thing, you know, somebody said, "Look, we must unite against this Wahhabi cancer." Look even this in you see part of maturity is even look we have to recognize that all groups are kind of here to stay you know even people whether they want to be salafy whether

whether you know to me like part of this growing up becoming like part of that maturity pathway is recognizing that look if if being a celi helps you to be a better person. If it brings you closer to Allah, if it helps you kind of cherish Islam in ways that other things couldn't, then you know, more power to you.

I'm not in any way going to oppose that. I'm not in any way going to beat down on that or criticize it or be Look, this there's, you know, there's different things for different people and and if it appeals to you in that way, my issue isn't with that. Um my issue is this impositionism this thing like to impose on other people like if I like if I've become a maliki now and now everybody that is doing something out like you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong no that's that attitude is

see my faith is about devotion if if if it's making me a better person more power to me you know if if if being Sali is making somebody better, love Islam better, be a better human being. Cuz that's what it ought to be doing. And this is the question. If religion, how we're finding it, is making you not a better human being, it's not making you uh care more about people.

It's not making you more compassionate, not making you have more empathy, not making you more balanced and mature, then there is something wrong here. because surely that's what the faith is about. So if that, you know, it's like if if if I'm eating food and I'm not getting nourished, then something's wrong. You know, if I'm doing this consistently and still I'm massively malnourished, then there's a problem going on.

Or if I'm drinking water and I'm still, you know, not getting hydrated, then something must be wrong with the water, >> you know. So these are the questions. So it's it's not even though look joking here and there obviously this humor all in good but I feel that part of the the path is not really to be you know to bash groups or because people are who they are you know you know if that's going to make you somebody that's a better human being I pray for you you know may you hold it forever you know go with it but

you know may it shine right for you. But just don't be using it as an instrument to to kind of bash down on other people that you just use it to kind of impose your way that it becomes a tool that you're somehow more holier than other people that Yeah. like you know that that's all. >> Yeah. Someone um someone in the comments is saying that I misrepresented Daniel.

Um so Babar is 3138. He said Daniel said Jesus can be intermediary between man and God like prophet Muhammad's peace be upon him can intermediary. >> Okay. I don't once again I don't know what that fully means. But you see I like I think sometimes a lot of these things are just so simple.

It's just like a conversation that look but yeah but there's there are certain things but we or I don't know maybe we can put things in a certain equation that one might say well okay but we don't generally this is not how we teach our faith we in the general sense we don't invoke Jesus or call upon Jesus obviously if a person did call out to Jesus once Again, you see this mitigating.

We don't, you know, we're not here to trigger happy, to chuck people out of the faith. Sure, you know, maybe they they understood it in this way and but that's not how we teach the dean. We don't embed it with that structure. We obviously it's Allahhed is is very clear and I'm sure, you know, Muslims wouldn't really or shouldn't really teach otherwise.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. Well, well, Fahim Shukran, Shukran, I mean, was uh that's I suppose that's enough of their >> um kind of distractions. May, you know, may Allah, look, may Allah bless them as well. Look, may Allah every person I'm telling you what it is is people are just struggling. People are struggling.

They are trapped. You know, many people have dug themselves into a corner that or into a hole into a ditch that they can't get out of. And many religious people have done that as well that they've kind of they've done something for so long that they kind of stuck with it now and they feel they don't know how to even, you know, it's too much of a so may Allah and they're struggling as well.

you know, everybody's struggling regardless. You know, it's not that quote that, you know, be kind for everybody you meet is fighting a difficult battle. So, may Allah bless them as well. A mean and make things easy for them. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I have um another a pressing question. Um I don't really have an answer. Um so, it's about miracles.

Um obviously you've said >> question law. >> Yeah. Uh so you've said that um miracle was so God has laws that he's imposed on the universe and he wouldn't go against them to >> to create miracles that the miracle should kind of fit into nature and not be supernatural. >> So my question is on um the sleepers of the cave. So obviously they slept in the cave for 300 years with their dog and then they wake up and like they haven't aged and they're in a different time.

So like how how would that be possible in a in a natural way? >> Yeah. So there's a few things and I do have an old video on this as well where I go into a lot of detail and I think that I wouldn't really do it justice right now. So I would say look watch that video where I go through detail. The thing is that the the Quran doesn't clearly affirm how long they were there.

>> Mhm. >> It offers speculation of what other people are saying they were there for. >> And it just says Allah knows best how much how long they lingered for how long they remained there. doesn't answer it. But people take that you know 300 years plus 9 to mean the Quran is affirming that.

But in one of the of I see once again from the top of my head I think it might have been but one of the companions they read and they said 300 years plus 9. So it's carrying on with this whole conjecture of what speculation of what people are saying now.

So how much they actually what we do know is that the the sleepers uh of the cave the that they went completely into a um like a hibernating kind of state. M this now what is interesting is you see mammals now humans don't tend to hibernate obviously not don't tend to we don't but mammals do including beers and other uh species now hibernation is

fascinating because what it does is it completely completely slows down metabolism to such an extent that you stay alive, but the cells don't require that level of energy to survive. So on a very minimal energy, the these animals, even those that are huge, bigger than humans, they go months on end without any food and they were, you know, they rise from their slumber being, you know, more or less normal.

So they're not whereas if you try to do that, you you'd be dead by being malnourished. So there was some interesting theories about caves and the emission of things certain gases like sulfur and some other gases that are often found in certain caves.

these can trigger can induce a a hibernating um the uh state in individuals. So there was some uh not just speculation that there's hypothesis for example that space travel one of the arguments for space travel is that we will put humans into a hibernating state and they will wake up like a 100 years later 150 years later that's how they can traverse so much space.

So how would we do that? Well we already have that kind of theory on how to do it. uh uh which kind of gases do what and these gases are found naturally as well and they're found in caves. So one plausible hypothesis and theory has been that as they resorted to the cave which was rich in these gases they entered into a hibernating state that lasted and due to the [snorts] the slowed down uh metabolic state that they were in minimal energy was required but

it was still drink it was still consuming and this is why the Quran does Give the example that when speaking of them that after whatever it was so many years or whatever the period was they were in a state that if you saw them you would have been terrified.

He says uh what is it that you would have that you would have been terrified if you saw what they look like by the end of it. So the Quran mentions that that they were in a state that would have sparked terror in you had you seen them and you would have fleed for [snorts] your uh you know turned your back and ran. So clearly even though there's this kind of slowed hibernating metabolism but after whatever the considerable time it is it's taking a perceptible toll.

So yeah, so that's what I would say that these things you see look the miracle is these things coming together by the will of Allah and them happening in that way is the miracle. Um, it doesn't mean that it's impossible forever to have happened. Like you could take those gases now and you, you know, you'd kind of they kind of knock you out. But what we're talking about is in a particular state in a particular circumstance, these things being brought together and happening obviously by the will of Allah.

Mhm. >> So yeah. >> You say it was for a few years at least that they would have been in the cave or >> I I would imagine of course for quite a substantial while. I mean I don't know exactly how long. Somebody said many men are terrified of their wives. [laughter] Even more so than the [laughter] Oh my god.

I hibernated like a thousand years. What is this zombie [laughter] tova? Tova tova. Amy, [laughter] you know there's going to be Let's hope nobody has seen this comment of yours otherwise they might have put a hit on your head. [laughter] H Allah Allah.

So >> yeah, >> mind you uh that reminds us uh Mani is Zahan Mani being sworn in Allah Allah I believe he put his hand on the Quran if I'm correct. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. >> And very unprecedented moment for the United States Allahbar. >> Yeah. >> I was I was in [snorts] New York in um in October in the last week of October.

Um, I did New York for for a week. >> Um, >> right. Look at that. Huh. >> That was mainly Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um, I didn't Brooklyn though. Um, which is where he was. Um, >> yeah. Well, that's we have to New York is a place I suppose America is a place we have to explore.

Have to go and visit America. Perhaps this year, Allahbar, huh? Why not? And see, some of the things that America is just so epic in, one is stakes. Oh my god. I mean, America, America has really just brought steaks to the forefront, isn't it? Really is. I think they've really brought that culture even though the rest of the world eat meat, but it is the Americans.

So one is the steak which I think would be unbeaten and two they do have a culture of cigars. I give them that they Allah Allah they really uh I think unlike the rest of the world really this these are two uh shall we say delicacies of this dunya that they've really mastered. >> So I I wouldn't know because I'm a vegan so yeah.

>> Are you and you don't smoke cigars either? No, I don't smoke cigars. No. >> So, see, look. So, you could just introduce yourself by saying I'm deprived of many of the blessings of Allah. [laughter] >> I'm joking. >> Uh, yeah, if if you remember our first conversation, it was about um veganism and animals. was I think it was 20 >> you know in in theory I fully am with the from the compassionate side I'm fully with uh >> uh veget oh sorry vegan is that like that's a step >> so not just vegetarian

>> so no animal products uh no milk no eggs >> no animal products >> I I mean I admire the >> the cause I admire the discipline But you know what? These these kind of vampire teeth that that Allah has kind of given us, they there is a longing for meat, shall we just say?

>> But I do agree that and I think the younger generation are much very um so my daughter Zara is very uh zoo. She's very kind of moved by all of this and um the thought of even though she does eat well she does eat chicken um but she seems to refrain from beef or lamb based on that really so she feels that oh my god you know like cows and >> sheep and lamb and yeah >> yeah I mean it's not just food as well

cuz I don't I don't buy leather. Um I don't buy wool. I don't buy buy fur cuz obviously the leather comes from the cows. And um well those cows they they're not connected to the halal industry. So they're they're the same cows that are used for like the the normal factory farmed meat. Um >> I mean if it helps the cows are vegan.

>> The cow Yeah, the cows are vegan. Yeah. Yeah, [laughter] >> I'm joking. That's a joke. It's a poor joke. But yeah, so I agree with you. you know in argument in theory I can't I I kind of applaud the compassion >> but I just feel that the world is designed in this way that we unfortunately we kind of but maybe a time will come when people uh you know they u maybe um that we will have alternatives and and

I'm sure that's not so far away. >> Mhm. >> You know, I I tell you one theory that I know this is going to sound now very um but I kind of feel that this world is in a in many ways like a simulation. >> I I agree that it's a simulation as in I fully believe that it's it's an actual computer simulation. Um so >> yeah like I believe it's yeah akin to yeah like it's like saying almost like a computer simulation and except you know obviously by the will of Allah Allah's kind of made it that way but in that sense then I guess maybe eating animals

isn't that bad if it's a simul [laughter] >> but I don't think because they >> I don't mean that to kind of detract but I kind of almost it does extend credence to the point if it is a simulation then I guess you know >> well they're still kind of like >> lower level players in the simulation I mean I think we still have to take them into account of our >> moral decisions or like even in Islam we can't just do whatever we want with animals there's like certain ethics of course not >> no no I don't mean in the sense cruelty

to animals I would clearly against Islam is against cruelty to animals >> unanimously. Nobody says it isn't. Um yeah and several people I imam Sakawi has a whole book written on you know the kindness to animals and how to treat them and many and other people have authored books as well and the prophet said um [sighs] you know in in every living soul there is a a reward for an act of kindness like as in there and there is like kindness is mandated to it that it it is it is a living soul

So yeah, I I that I I feel is a non-negotiable really although people >> are not kind but yeah so that's not what I but how would you so the thing is that well you see animals eat animals. >> Yeah. >> So what what would you say about that though?

Um or do we look we don't because we don't get our morality from other animals, right? >> No, not morality but like let's say let's say we have a reservation. Let's say we are in charge of a a large uh you know certain forests or whatever wild you know wild parks or regions of land and territory. And let's say in these territories are predatory apex creatures like be they [clears throat] >> tigers or lions or wolves >> and let's say there's gazels and there's deer and there's bucks and there's these other things >> now [clears throat]

or there's buffaloos or whatever they hunt >> in that region. So let's say we could in a certain part of it save [snorts] and prevent them from hunting like we could save those deers or we could kind of block the wolves or we could block should we should we is the question block.

>> Yeah. So that's um there's kind of there's like a big split I guess in the vegan movement is like where what you should do in that situation because there's the there's like the conservation movement where they just say you know nature is fine how it is so you just kind of leave it alone and there's a different movement where it says no we should like be more involved and try to >> make >> so if we did then the wolves would starve let's say yes or the and then So yeah, so that's that's one thing where the the animals eat other animals out of necessity, but we don't do that.

We do it because of pleasure. >> Wait, wait, wait. Is it out is it out of just necessity or is it out of instinct? >> Um, how do you differentiate between the the two? I think Well, I think the instinct would come because there is necessity. >> Mhm. Would it? >> I believe so. I mean, because you're saying without >> Why do cats Why do cats kill?

>> Um, they've evolved to kill. >> No, but they have an instinct to kill. >> Yeah. Yeah. They have an instinct to kill. So, that instinct helps them to survive. >> So, no, cats are relatively safe regardless of they don't have to kill all the >> No, no. As in they've developed the instinct to kill because it's um as it gives them an evolutionary advantage over the cats that don't have the instinct. So, no, no. What I mean is that No, because like cats, you could say, look, well, they could kill to eat, >> but cats will just kill and they won't even eat the animal.

>> So, they kill on many occasions not to eat. >> So, and they [clears throat] kill also whilst being the dominant creature like so they'll kill a mouse. [clears throat] >> The mouse is not really doesn't pose a threat to them. It's just the moment they see it moving, the instinct kicks in. >> Yeah. >> The hunter instinct, the predatory mode switches on.

>> And so it's like an instinct animals have >> not necessity. Necessity >> may obviously you know when people like not people sorry creatures will uh act out of necessity but it's not necessity it's instinct that makes them do that. >> Yeah. Yeah. But I think the So why do you think the instinct developed in the cats or whatever predators like why do you think they have that instinct?

>> Because I think all of all creatures have this instinct. All life has this instinct >> to kill. >> I feel that you see I don't know if it the right word is to kill but the right word to create and to destroy. That you see there is almost a spark of like with life there is this almost you see like in if we look at the cosmos there is that there is everything has its counter so you know where you have particles you'll have

antiparticles where you'll have matter you'll have antimatter where you have like things where there's a positive there must be a negative and I feel that this thing that even some ancient um you know religions maybe took mistook maybe in a certain way and attributed them to you know deities like in Hinduism. But it was what they were mirroring is this kind of will that they saw this this which on one hand is creative and the other hand is destructive like they're two sides of a coin and and I

feel that you you couldn't really have like by having one the other the counterpart is put into um and maybe it's it's that kind of lrange Fungian point of for for the you know like an algorithm for this uh simulation like it but it's what it is it is part of it is hardwired into creatures humans I think also not very different now

one theory is that as humans have this will this instinct to to destroy and shed blood? Has it have we sublimated this instinct by kind of re calibrating it to sacrificing animals and then eating them as opposed to shedding blood of other humans.

Then that is there [clears throat] in this sacrificial um expression beyond food a salvation for mankind that Allah has hidden that this is a I feel it's a deeper question than we sometimes realize that we you know the story of uh the two sons of Adam.

Yes, >> it's a fascinating and intriguing story that they offer this you know their offering to Allah and the Quran briefly uh mentions the you know notice Allah doesn't say we accepted it from one says and it was accepted from one in the passive voice Now that's interesting and for speculation that one can but not to digress the Quran doesn't go into too much

detail except it mentions then the one son of of Adam kills Habib and then he says you know he says for uh later on as he sees the kind of crow and or the raven do you know do this or scrape the ground or do whatever he's going to do. But the the biblical expansion on this story is fascinating because the biblical expansion, I'm not sure if you're familiar with it.

So Abel and Cain, and Cain is going to be the one that kills. Now, they make an offering to the Lord. Now, what does Abel offer to the Lord? >> Like an a goat or an animal or something? Sheep, >> something. Yeah, he offers like something like a sheep or something like this. But what does Cain offer to the Lord?

>> His crops, right? >> He offers vegetation, vegetables, and plants. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because wouldn't you think that is a more noble offering, >> the the vegetables or >> Yeah. Because why? I I think uh yeah I I >> yet you see yet when he sees that you see what does he do then he resorts to taking the life of Abel.

>> Mhm. in some way almost scapegoating this kind of you see like I feel that there's more to this story that's that's very intriguing than just how people apparently read it that it's almost on its head that you have Cain he offers vegetation hard work you know we plant and we take these things and it's clean.

And by clean, I don't mean dirt. I mean like clean as in it's hard work. It's the labor, the toil of my hands. And I work and I harvest and I offer it. And he goes and sheds blood. Now, and to him it appears. And I'm not going to say Allah accepted that, but I'm because the Quran doesn't say Allah accepted it.

It says it was accepted. Whatever that meant. Now, was it that a lightning just happened to strike down and hit that one and they assumed that meant it was acceptance? Is it like perception? Because the Quran doesn't say Allah didn't say we accepted it. It it was accept. It appeared it was accepted. It was accepted from him. Now, what does that mean? Well, you could say, well, this is Allah saying it in the passive voice.

I'm not saying I did it. I'm saying it was accepted, meaning I accepted it. Sure, you could do that. One way it could be that it appeared to them maybe like a lightning struck down and it appeared that this now what does this invoke in Abil that instinct for blood that he had given up and you see when this is evoked see what does say in that poem he says that that

he says uh that within the heart that storm cried out once again. that where you hadn't let just tears emerge because you were being so stone stone about your emotions when it did

emerge it turned into a storm. You see now this the volcanosity volcanic expression. So what does Kane do? He that lust for blood. See, is it lust or is it an instinct? We don't know. I don't know because obviously we would say it's categorically wrong to shed blood, especially human blood.

But whatever happens, it goes from this person who's not even going to hurt an animal. He wants to offer this to then taking the life of. And I and and then it mentions that he becomes you know this thing for us and was he really from the Nadim now most of us say he wasn't regretful in that sense but that he was of the first to this kind of scapegoating this kind of like the only way if that's what God wanted

you know is that what God wanted, then let me express this. Let me take it up a level. Is this what God wanted? Obviously, that's not what God wanted. But is that his his inner feeling that is this what God wanted? So, let me murder him. Let me shed his blood. Surely that's what if that's what you're saying your God wants. Now this scapegoating bea be becomes later a human tradition that you know what we do is we all the sins of the community and the Jewish you know in their tradition this was then later sublimated to a goat

or something that we all the sins of this community this person this witch or this sorcerer he is the curse so we must even if we don't want to we must kill him to to kind of absolve ourselves This is the kafara. This is the instinct. Now I feel that the human psyche is is so like it is so complex um because at at many levels we are just animals aren't we?

Except you know we are this between animal and one could say angel or between you know we we on one hand mirror the divine. On one hand, this capacity allows us to be that much evil as well that animals can't be that we can take it to another degree that animals animals don't cons commit genocide. Animals don't you know completely eradicate they uh even though they have an instinct to kill but not to do things in that way.

So yeah, p I mean that's uh [laughter] a fascinating digression. I'm not sure what your you had thoughts on that, but yeah. >> Yeah. So like I was thinking of your video on Abraham and sacrificing his son. Um cuz obviously he had the he had the dream where he sacrifices his son and we we don't know which son it is but I think his son thinks it's it's from God so he tells him to go ahead with it.

Um >> and then eventually like God says not to do it and like to sacrifice uh you know like a ram instead. Um >> so from that I think yeah the yeah there's I think there's like the whole blood lust thing I think it's being so instead of doing it on humans it's kind of being replaced on animals.

>> Um >> whereas before we used to I think you were saying how human sacrifice was very a very popular thing. Um, >> I mean, I I don't I'm not saying everybody was doing it, but but it wasn't it wasn't unknown like people offered to the gods and >> but I'm just wondering about you see one is belief structures there that there's no denying obviously belief like these kind of ancient cultish religions that needed sacrificing children and and all of that.

There's no denying that they had their influence. But what I'm what I was kind of almost um poking at here wasn't and stoking the the the discourse wasn't so much for that. It was more like do we have this kind of does insan have this instinct of blood lust that [clears throat] that maybe this expression has sublimated to this category that yes there is food.

Yes there is this. Yes there is clothing for you from animals. Yes there is you know all these kind of things. The the you could use the hide. You could use the leather. You could use the fur. You could use the wool. There's all of these things. You could use bones to do things. You could use the fat. And there is sustenance. There is food. There is protein clearly. But beyond that as well, is there another element that it kind of it it stops.

It's a doors stopper. I don't know. Like obviously these are things these are not things we can ever say that they are this way. or aunt. This is an a question mark to the to to to trying to explore the human psyche, the human nature, the human instinct. Um >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Um like I I think in the past we may have had it, but I feel like we've kind of gone past that stage now. >> And u mo most of us, we don't really sacrifice animals. Um if we see an animal, we our instinct is to know, you know, pet it and be kind to it. We wouldn't want to put >> No. So you see, so right. So here's the difference. You see, you see what you see, you're speaking about in the everyday, and I agree with you.

Most of us are like that. But what about in the realm of fantasy? Because human beings can't really dissociate themselves from the realm of fantasy. And you know this is something psychoanalysis has really uh is so key on that it's highlighted. You see what is fantasy?

Fantasy as explained in Lanian psychoanalysis. It is the structure if you like or the space or the language in which desires are expressed. So you cannot think of any desire without a fantasy without an something to express it.

You cannot otherwise imagine you removed all fantasy for a moment. You couldn't really express desire. They would be like it wouldn't mean anything. It's it it is but an expression of the things that a person has. Now let's say you take fantasy, the realm of fantasy. And fantasy is much more important to human existence than we think because fantasy isn't just something that we you know this is the naivity that people assume that oh fantasy is just like oh you know it's just in our mind and we go off to it.

It allows us to to to to kind of conduct it allows us to to have desires that no desire is expressed devoid of fantasy. It can never happen. I mean you take okay by since I'm speaking psychoanalytically the strongest of all desires from a especially from a Freudian perspective is going to be the the sexual drive the libido it could have no expression as lan had argued and psycho especially lenians

they've argued and they've shown this it could have no expression without fantasy there must be some level of fantasy some level otherwise it it the sheer mechanics of it would render it impotent. It it would if it was just left to just mere mechan mechanistic biology it would be meaningless to humans.

So you see, so now you take this realm of fantasy. People have a fantasy that they are killing bad guys, that they are saving the day, that they are rescuing the world from evil people, that they kill, you know, that they're this hero that kills all these people and saves. People have a fantasy that that even you could say even an adult could drift off into it upon occasion.

Now, so so that shows in the unconscious, in the unconscious, has that instinct for blood gone away? I mean, it's a question mark because it's clearly there for the expression of pleasure in fantasy.

So it's deeply embedded in our unconscious. Now one could say well it's a harmless fantasy and I would agree for what the outright thank god majority of human beings it would be a harmless fantasy a fantasy yet it still remains. Now that is the question that you see if it still remains a fantasy within the unconscious.

It must have some substance to it must have something for the unconscious to hold on to these things that it must be something. But you're right that general civilization has alhamdulillah you know has steered us away from this kind of stuff. Uh, >> yeah.

>> Yeah. I feel like um >> Yeah. Yeah. I think I see what you're saying about the fantasy stuff. I think >> there's a lot of different ways that we can express it. Like there's obviously uh movies and TV shows that go into it like, you know, there's stuff like John Wick where, you know, he's killing all these bad people because someone killed his dog. Um, you can, you know, there's lots of games you can play where you can >> fulfill your fantasies like GTA.

>> You see, we are all drawn, this is what I'm saying, that is it that this instinct cuz we are drawn to the dark. Maybe we don't like to admit it, but there is something about it that draws people. And and by the dark here, I mean these I'm not passing a moral judgment on it, but the dark because this instinct would be obviously a dark instinct in that sense.

It's not I'm not passing a morality judgment on it on saying whether it's good or bad because one could say well if done in a good context like you said you know if you're saving people and you're killing people by saving innocent people it would be deemed a good value value judgment. So I'm not I'm speaking beereft of value judgments but there is something clearly that you know it draws it it must intrigue the the naps.

It must intrigue the self. The humans are drawn to these things that you can't um what there was a poem that um what did the poet said? He it was a it was a dark poem actually about suicide in Uru where he said uh quot uh what was the um

he said u that a damn what was his name the poet's name ah But he says that that the monster of death has a feature that draws you in.

He said it kind of attracts you no matter what people say about suicide. That was a very dark poem actually. Um I've slipped the the the name of the poet slipped my mind right now. But what we can't deny that there is this. So where is this coming from? Is is you know is there something within? And this is once again beereft of morality judgment because you could use it either way.

So, so as not to say well you know this is from the shaitan because well obviously if it's if it's bad things then one could say well it's you know these negative um you know kind of intuitions or negative kind of uh insinuations whispers of the shaitan but there is something is there something at the core of insan so I I don't know these are intriguing explorations ations I feel of the human psyche.

I think u we've this has been a really fascinating discussion for him. It actually turned into our own little podcast here. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I would um yeah I would want to discuss more things uh the discussion [laughter] that we're having. >> It was it was very very fruitful. I think very intriguing. I often honestly think, you know, my mind will go from theme to theme, topic to topic.

Um, and I love these five areas that I was saying today. These kind of five Ps. I'm always looking into them, always exploring something about them. psychology, philosophy, uh physics, poetry and perplexity, you know, the kind of mysticism that I feel that these things they always for me anyway, I find them just wow.

So these kind of topics I'm I'm kind of uh right really uh I love uh uh exploring. Somebody said he's going to have some steak after this. >> Yeah. Vegan steak. Vegan steak. >> The the meat alternatives are they're pretty good now. Pretty >> Yeah, I think they are, aren't they?

They're very convincing. You know, I've you have uh from the supermarkets like you have from Tesco's, you get all this, you know, vegan I think vegan or vegetarian. You get vegetarian uh sausages like lamb sausages >> and but they're vegetarian and beef saus and they taste just like lamb and beef and >> they're 100% vegetarian. So, and they even stack them with protein now.

>> Yeah. >> So, they even stack them. They make them protein enriched. So, you're getting, you know, more protein than just regular vegetables. You're getting it as if you're eating beef, for example. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Yeah. >> Yeah. you know, with um they're obviously going to start making artificial meat, um lab grown meat. Um if they make lab grown pork, would that be halal to eat or no?

You see, I don't see there's two things. One, I I don't think Muslims should eat it, but I don't think it would be haram. So the the difference is that you see not eating pork is not because the pig has done something to upset Allah.

It's that this is what we have that's symbolic in our faith that then it um it manifests expresses itself as the Muslim identity that an abstinence from a particular meat and that happens to be pork for us and this continues with the Abrahamic tradition you know we didn't Islam didn't come up with this this was coming down now this is now a matter of identitarian expression So to start eating pork that is non-pig pork, it wouldn't necessarily be haram

because it's not pork. But you see it the identity that Muslims have worldwide is that we don't eat pork. So I feel that you know this is why we shouldn't really do it because it's more an identity of Muslims that we don't eat pork. So why I get it, you know, one could say, well, it's still not technically pork. This is why I said it's not haram, but why uh to me that identity is something that, you know, the the Quran has kind of united us on.

And it's united us on very few things like that. One is to point towards the and to pray and to, you know, the other is this that we refrain from pork. So to me these Yeah. I I would say that they shouldn't still do it. >> Mhm. >> If that makes sense. Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't think I would I would have it either.

Um >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think I think in the future there's going to be a lot more um >> and this is in contrast to turkey bacon because you see turkey bacon it's as if what people have done is they've just repurposed the word bacon here to mean turkey bacon. So it's almost become a thing now that people would say oh turkey bacon and they mean by like turkey meat.

So it's not the same as saying pork even though bacon in essence was used for pork but this part of it has been almost repurposed in that way. So, so I don't see them the same as saying like artificial synthetic pork I would see as something we shouldn't do because it's just you know it's just for no reason you're going against the identity that we have and really Islam has given us very little unlike what many people may choose to believe that we have a uniform and things we don't really have any uniform in Islam and you know maybe some people want to adopt a particular uniform and

they're more than welcome to do that. But Islam hasn't really given us a uniform. So what it has given us are just these few identity markers. Um >> yeah. >> Yeah. You could even um you could even technically like lab grow human flesh and people could have that. >> Um >> okay. I know.

I never realized that. I never even that never even crossed my mind [laughter] that thought of that even that people were doing that or they're saying that they would do that. >> I I I I mean I feel like there should be no reason why it's not possible um if they can do it with animals should be doable with humans. >> Um >> would human meat even be would it even be something that would be tasty or something?

We wouldn't really >> I've heard that it tastes similar to pork or something. Um [laughter] well, you know, God forbid. I feel that there's there is just some things that have like a a sanctity >> and that is like looking at humans and a sanctity that the human has.

Um, even though there are obviously cannibalistic societies, but I mean not societies as an oxymoron cannibalistic societies, there are cannibalistic uh, you know, dwellings, shall we say, on earth, but they are, you know, very rare and relatively speaking. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Everyone's calling me a cannibal now in the in the chat.

>> There you go, Steve. There you go. This is what made Fahim uh vegetarian after he realized it was actually I've read in the past that they said some places even in some Islamic literature I'm sure I've read now that you I'm just thinking about it that they said allegedly that human meat had such an addiction to it. This is why it was kind of uh you know declared sacred and so on and uh as in some people had given this this kind of argument.

So there you go. Is that so for him has just you know in his cannibalistic past he was so drawn into it that he thought you know what Toba I give all of this I'm going full vegan mode. >> Yeah. I think in in like a 100 years from now or you know in that amount of time I think most of the world would have moved to a plant-based diet.

Um the other thing is that it's a it's a lot better for the environment and uh climate change is pretty bad right now and then animal agriculture is right at the top of um the causes of climate change. Um so I think once you know once we've moved past animal meats there'll be more artificial meats and plant-based meats. I think most most people will look back like hundreds of years before um at our practices in the same way that we look back at slavery.

Um I think people try to make >> What would happen to all the surplus animals though? >> Well, we're breeding them into >> them animals. >> No, so we're breeding them into existence. Um >> Oh, supply and demand. >> Yeah, supply and demand. So that's so like as the vegan population increases, I think it's like 1% right now, but as it increases.

>> So would it be so would it be better for the the for the animal to never have been born? >> Yeah. Cuz they're literally born into hell. You know, they're born into the worst conditions possible. >> But let's say let's say it wasn't born into the worst conditions. It lived. And is it better for it to have never existed? >> I think so, cuz it's not going to feel any pain. Um, just use just use an ex human in the same.

>> Yeah, because I was going to then extend that to then your argument would would mean that it would be better to kill certain humans as a baby by that logic. >> No, no, as in not not them not being born, not conceive them not being born versus um being killed at 18. >> Well, never >> just just just never like I think abortions abortion is probably fine obviously consummated.

Because the animals would experience joy as well. Let's say an animal lived its whole life and it experienced joy as well. But it you see what is the so the pain is just the the the sacrificing at the end. >> So if if animals were kept in in in um you know in non in in very um what's what's a better word for it?

In very healthy >> and humane. Yeah, I was thinking of humane, but I was stopping myself because of the word human in it. >> Um, >> so if they were kept in very in rightful uh caring environments and atmospheres and they let's say they live very organically and flourished and but then only at the time of sacrifice >> they are offered like kind of taken out as meat >> but they're not not these battery farms and >> but let's say healthier organic versions in the future because they could easily set them up if they wanted.

It just requires so much investment. >> It's not um the reason that the factory farming exists is to meet the demand of the human population right now. >> No, but they could No, but they could do the same thing given more and it's more cost effective to have it this way. But if they did it like let's say they could do the same thing in an organic sense like let's say they let these chickens roam.

They let them reproduce, mass reproduce, but loads of them roam and much better conditions and they could do it, but they don't see the purpose because they think, well, we're getting our money anyway, uh, like this, why waste so much more, millions and millions investing for what? We're not going to make that money back. So, but if Yeah, but if let's say they did, if that wasn't the issue, like they were >> in more humane conditions and more healthy conditions and lively and uh but then it's only the sacrifice at the end.

Would they still then they would have lived a their you know their version of a fulfilling life. And [laughter] I guess the fulfilling life for the goat might be getting eaten by the the the wolf. So I mean how do we stop that then uh the wolf eating the goat? >> Yeah. >> Like al so yeah. So I I >> think artificial meat.

>> Well, so I I think Yeah. So yeah, there's um yeah, there's a debate about that in the vegan community, but I think >> obviously focus >> artificial >> um well some I think there's like some people would just say some people would just say >> can I have a paper can I have a paper straw with that as well please? Some some people would just say like kill off all the predators so there's um so you know the the prey will be fine and then >> that's not very creature loving to kill off I love I love things like tigers and wolves.

>> Yeah. >> I think they're so majestic. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. But I I think the the main focus first would be to get rid of the the factory farming that's going on right now. Um then once they >> No, I agree with you. No, I think all of that stuff is a result of blind uh sheer consumerristic capitalism.

I mean or capitalistic pure capitalistic. I don't just mean I'm not saying capitalism necessarily has to always be bad but that it's just like you know it's like hard one could say almost like extreme capitalism uh just kind of churning that out and yeah that I would agree with clearly and I think most people agree [snorts] that there should be better much better conditions for those animals.

Yeah, they they agree. But um obviously the um like the milk, the eggs, the leather, they're all from the >> That's a fascinating point. You see, and this ties into our discussion. What lonzetta lama, how are you doing? Some predators will only hunt. They won't scavenge the food by instinct. It's a fascinating um thought and it comes back to what we were saying the instinct that lies within and you know and and that instinct and and the question was as well that is that instinct also then latent and you know hidden within humans as well.

So that was a discussion if you've missed it we had a great uh you know quite an expansive dialogue on it. So do rewind and have a listen inshallah. >> Yeah. >> Right people. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's fine. Yeah. I mean um >> Oh, sorry. You were going to what we >> Yeah. So, so you're um like you're against the the factory farming and all those.

Um but like Yeah. So most people are against it, but they the milk and the eggs um and the leather and all the animal products that they buy, that's all a product of that factory farming. So the capitalistic factory farming and them paying for it is only making that worse. So they're they are they are causing that demand. So they're causing that to continue to happen. Um whereas what vegans are trying to do is to boycott that and go for alternative alternative methods.

um plant-based milks and like different like egg mixes, whatever. Um artificial synthetic leather. >> Um so yeah, that's that's that's what I argue for basically. Um >> yeah I do see that it is a very fascinating discussion and in many ways um and I know this will just keep the discussion going that now this studies showing that plants feel pain right which >> um it's it's not true because um >> they don't have a brain or a central

nervous system um like >> they seem to react >> they can react There's plant intelligence. Um, but it's not pain. It's um, so there's there's no sentience. There's no consciousness. There's no awareness. >> How how would you know though? How would you know though? How would >> because we know that it's linked consciousness is linked to the brain uh, and the nervous system. So if you don't have nerve centers and pain receptors, >> no feel the pain.

No, because there's a difference between consciousness and I mean because when you're saying consciousness, people might be assuming like human consciousness, but like sentience, feeling. >> Yes. >> What's to say that they're not sentient? I mean, how could you possibly prove that? I don't think you could prove it. I think it'd be very it'd be almost impossible. >> Uh, well, sentience is the ability to feel pleasure and pain, right?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, how how how would you feel? Even in humans, if you don't have pain receptors, you're just not going to feel the pain. So, so plants don't have any kind of nervous system. So, how are they going to feel pain? >> But there's studies showing them reacting. >> Yeah, reactions are different to uh to pleasure and pain because chemicals can react, right? The chemicals aren't sentient. If you put if you mix two different chemicals, >> how would you know that's not their version of pain?

Because re I mean yeah the same thing I said like pain requires uh receptors requires a nervous system. >> No because no but but a nervous system you see it requires a system but nerve nerve system is obviously the human version of that. So what we're doing is analogizing humans onto so that's like saying yes.

So no but you're but I I yes animals do have it but what I mean is you're extending the analogy and then saying well because plants are not part of the animal kingdom >> and they don't have the nervous system therefore they don't have that. But there's no but that's you've kind of started off with that premise by saying well feelings like we only have feelings because we have nerves but that's for animals but for nonan animals like let's say now plants do seem to be reacting recent studies show which demonstrate

that they seem to be >> some kind of uh sensibility towards pain and pleasure or definitely towards pain. What uh >> how how towards pain >> that the way they react to >> well like if you if you uh kick a flower does it like react in a certain way where >> not not like that but they would so so for example in fact because it's but they've shown that they demonstrate let's see uh what they actually show uh was

because I And obviously I know I have many things from the top of my head but this is not one. So what was the research? But there was some research to show this. >> Uh >> it's been like I I'll I'll say that there's there's been studies debunking those >> ones that suggest they feel pain. Yeah. Yeah. >> I mean but >> but how would you be able to 100% know?

You wouldn't be able to know, would you? I mean in the in the in the sense that you can't 100% know anything for sure but like there's no good reason to believe >> but like let's say like let's say you went with the premise that life because you see one is it's inanimate doesn't have life if it has life it's highly plausible that it has some sentience.

No, because uh I meanal you would say cell cells are alive, right? >> They are. >> Yeah. So are your skin cells feeling pain as they're shedding from your skin? >> You see, but maybe maybe they are feeling certain things, but they're at such a molecular level that we are switched off >> from recognizing them. So maybe the brain's preventing us from >> from registering it because >> Yeah.

So, so, so, so the brain is needed to register things, but the cells don't. >> No, no, no, no. What if it's doing it preventing us from doing it? So, so look, the brain could be on one hand, it could be doing allowing us to register them. On another hand, it could be preventing because otherwise we could have sensory overload. So, it's not allowing us to feel those. So, for example, right now, we can't feel our liver functioning.

We can't feel [snorts] our kidneys working. >> Now, that doesn't mean they're not working or they don't feel things. They do feel things, but we we are not the brain prevents us from feeling it because otherwise there would be sensory overload and we couldn't function. So, the brain on some things could be inhibitory as well. Now, so if there is life, there is the argument to be made that there is sentience because how would you disprove it?

Because the only way you disprove it is by saying, "Well, they don't have what we don't what we have. Therefore, surely they can't feel." But that doesn't clearly that doesn't apply when it comes to life. And they are a different kingdom. They're not the animal kingdom. They're the plant kingdom. Yeah. But you I mean you would need to prove that the plant kingdom do feel pain. But also um with with the liver thing um the liver isn't feeling pain.

We are feeling pain because we have the liver. Right? If we isolated the liver and just put it outside >> like you stab the liver it's not there's no sentience in there where >> but as part of us there's parts of our bodies that have feeling like they can feel that's what I meant but obviously we are part of that but what I was trying to show there wasn't about the parts having feeling but was that the brain preventing feeling as opposed to enabling feeling so in some things the brain does enable in some things it disables So, it prevents us as much as it allows us.

So, things that don't have a brain, what's to say they're not feeling? Um >> how because the feeling >> okay don't certain worms if you disconnect them >> and no in fact actually there's been also studies on um what do you call those uh not single cell amoeba but there's been a very ah it's not from the top of my head so it'll uh that they actually showed for the first time that they uh were kind of seeking out.

So if they were seeking but they don't have a brain and they [snorts] don't have a nervous system. So the fact that they could seek out >> showed oh that's it. Yeah. A plankton. A plankton. That's it. So this was a bit of a spanner in the general works for us. So and what about mushrooms? Do mushrooms seem to communicate through myelium structures underground and they seem to salvage >> and trees and plants actually use the mcelium structure >> to help one another.

So for example, if a tree realizes that tree over there has got less water, it will allow that part of the ground to absorb more to help that and it will communicate using the mycelium structure. Now that sounds very not only advanced but it sounds very sentient. But it's not it's not the tree saying, "Oh yeah, my my friend tree over there is in danger. Let me go help him." That's just how the trees evolve to survive.

Um eventually, >> how do we But what? Wait a minute. Why is it not saying that? It is saying that. >> But wait, so I mean it seems like you're just assuming sentience for all life for some reason. Um which it seems like a very pansyist view. I don't know if that if you >> No, because look, if the tree, let's say there's a bunch of trees here now, we know trees communicate with one another and they say, well, you know, then they look out for each other and they also help heal one another.

So, that is clearly communication. So, if they're communicating, how are they communicating without sentience? That they must be >> I mean I mean there's you can there's um there's plant intelligence. It's like artificial intelligence, right? Um AI can communicate but it's not doesn't feel pain. It's not suffering, isn't it? There's no consciousness. >> AI is not growing as a as a living metabolizing uh you know organism. But trees and plants like they are alive. They're growing.

>> Yeah. They they they can be alive. Um >> fine. >> So if the argument let's say the hypothesis is life brings necessitates sentience. Let's say that's a hypothesis. Now obviously computers are not alive in that way that you know they're like engineered the electrical but if something was alive and growing and metabolizing and doing these things and if this hypothesis was that life necessitates sentience how would we disprove it because what what well we could say well obviously we

can't tell you know like when I look at this tree treason but now mind you we find now we realize realize there's a lot of healing by, you know, hugging trees and doing all of this. But, but let's say we're just looking and we only realize, by the way, that trees even communicate since the last 10 odd 10 to 15 years. Prior to that, we don't really know that. So, we would just say, well, look, when I kick this, like you said, well, if I kick this plant, it's not going to start screaming.

But that's that's because that's not how they communicate. So we're we're kind of expecting them to behave like us or behave like animals, but they're not animals. They're plants. So they have a different >> Why are you expecting them to feel pain? >> Because if they carry life, then life must carry pain and joy.

>> Why? How are you defining life? >> But that is the hypothesis that let's say that's the hypothesis that life by its very essence encapsulates feelings. >> Okay. So, if I just said matter encapsulates feelings, how would you disprove that? >> So, sure. Now, >> like let's say I was a fooled pans psychist and I'm saying >> sure, >> you know, every subatomic particle in the universe, it has some level of consciousness.

>> Um, >> that's a different argument. That's a different which I could get behind as well. >> But that argument wouldn't really be saying matter per se. That would be saying that the fundamental build irreducible building blocks of reality is consciousness. And because consciousness is conscious, therefore all structures in this cosmos, everything and nothing is from that consciousness.

And therefore, it must carry within it some of that consciousness, even if it's imperceptible. Now, that I could I think is an you know, fine. I I don't think we can refute that argument or we can defeat it. I don't think we can. >> But if you just said to me, not from that argument, if you just said, look, I believe all stones are alive. >> Yeah.

>> Now, okay, sure. But my I mean I my point would be that what would alive like what does it what does that mean? Like what does that mandate? Like usually they would say life necessitates things like growth. Something grows, something metabolizes, something takes energy and converts it into something else. It does these kind of things. This movement is usually a sign of life.

Now if you said like stones don't tend to do that any of those things. So it would be a difficult argument to uh just based on just as a statement you know not on the consciousness being an irreducible fundamental that's a different argument which in that sense we're not saying stones we're just saying every speck of reality has consciousness so that's like a slightly different argument but in this one I think it's hard to posit stones on their own but something that does grow and it kind of grows into something and it breathes and

it lives and it takes in, you know, gases and converts them and metabolizes and moves and, you know, does all of these things. Um, you see, it's hard to then like I feel it or okay or I feel it's not so easy to dismiss that they could have sentience.

>> Yeah. most uh I mean you won't find any like biologists that will tell you that plants feel pain but if you're saying that you know how would you disprove it then are you saying it's unfalsifiable that your claim >> because then it would fall in the wrong going >> so I guess the question is well now the question is one of information and intelligibility because obviously plants wouldn't communicate to us, not in our language.

So, how would we be able to receive that information from them that they're suffering? Now, that's to me that would be sure like that that's that's a a question that's a true, you know, it's a um it's a worthy question that how would we know epistemology? And well, we do know, you know, there's been some fascinating studies, by the way, where uh by some Japanese researchers, I think Pioneer, where they yelled hor horrible words, hateful words to a plant and they and they gave like

very uh loving words and the response is very different. And you can find that on YouTube. They show you the study of the >> I think >> um >> I think this one was debunked as well but because I think there was another one where they someone talked to water and said like nice things to water and then they then there was another part of water.

I I do feel that with this there was a slight different um my theory on that wasn't so much about just the feeling but part of it I suppose would include the feeling but it was more so that when we are in a state hateful state that we emit a certain energy and that energy may be harmful at a very subtle level like perceptibly harmful.

So and where we are very loving that we are emitting a kind of positive energy even if we can't physically see it but we are omitting it and >> literal like literal measured in jewels like >> I don't I don't know what we would measure it in because we don't have an aectometer so to speak that would measure the release of these things.

So for example, we now know that the human heart emits at least 3 ft in all directions, if not some say six feet, a kind of magnetic field >> that the heart transmits larger than the brain. I mean the heart's kind of magnetic field is is very powerful. And now we know very recently in recent studies that humans do have magneetto receptors even though they're very latent like we can't tell that we have them whereas animals can tell things like their direction to north but we do still carry that the magneetto receptors in our brain but we just don't know how

to use them. So they say something like sometimes I think three out of five people can just tell which way is north but they don't know how they can tell. So they they think they're just guessing, but they actually do have we have magnetto receptors. So when we have positivity and love, are we emitting and is does the emotion carry an actual energy? I would feel that emotions carry an actual energy whether that's a magnetic charge, I don't know, whether that's something which we haven't yet fully understood.

So when we have a negative energy we you know you can walk into a room and feel tension if it's a tense room why there must be some charge that we can read that we can detect and so similarly I would feel that this charge is what was impacting those plants like you know when they were being like horrible to it or they were being nice to it that was my uh way of understanding that and that would mean that the plant as a living thing can also pick up on the change of that energy or whatever that wave is or

magnetic field or whatever it is that's changing. >> Yeah. So, so do you think it's equal to kick a flower versus kicking a dog? Do you think they're in the same place? >> No. No. No. No. No. >> So, would you like would you say that kicking a dog is like a lot worse than kicking a cloud? in the spectrum of things. Of course, of course.

>> Yeah. So, so then I don't think >> Yeah. So, >> so even if we grant like plants suffering to some degree like I I don't think we can compare it to the amount that animals suffer that we cause animal suffering. And also >> um >> I consume less plants than you do because in order for you to you have to consume the animal first and the animal consumes more plants than I do.

Meate eaters in the grand scheme of things, they're causing more plant destruction. They're >> consume the food. >> But you consume the food of the animals. >> No, I don't because uh [laughter] >> because you know, >> you're eating the the cow's food and the animals food. Well, we're at saying, "No, no, you guys eat your own food. We'll just eat you." So >> no, because uh you like by because you know when you increase the food chain, you're going to get a lot of waste along the way.

>> Like it's less energy efficient. So when you're eating meat, you end up using a lot up a lot of water, you know, a lot more a lot more feed. So you're wasting a lot of resources. And if we if the world weren't vegan, we'd eventually actually have a lot more food to feed the the entire population. I I I think it's a fascinating discussion and I really do you know on that note I do believe that with time we should merged in rulings like symbolic sacrifices.

I know in the school of Medina an animal can be sacrificed as the prophet said on behalf of the entire ummah even but at least on behalf of uh like entire households and more than households as well and I do hope that we you know where it's unnecessary and unwarranted and the sacrifices are symbolic we can move towards things like that we're less >> like during the Hajj or other places where people don't really need to sacrifice and they go to waste as well.

>> Um where we can keep things symbolic for the sake of as the hadith mentions the prophet said I do this on behalf of me my you know my family my household my whole and on behalf of my um he said I do I sacrifice this so and that's what the school of Medina took. So I do uh and also in that vein there is a very interesting hadith somebody once showed me where a companion uh it came to sacrificing and he said I can't he couldn't do it uh out of mercy.

>> Yeah. like he said and the prophet said may Allah have uh infinite mercy on you that you showed this mercy that you had this mercy towards the animal and and that is you know just the the epitome and beauty of a of teaching that that the prophet sallall alaihi wasallam taught and so I do yeah like I think it's important and I I find it very admirable obviously joking aside in between you know here and there obviously you have to have a bit of you know light-hearted uh humor But yeah, this is a fascinating discussion and it will be interesting to see how generations unfold you know with this.

It's been an absolute uh pleasure today >> having this conversation. It's been uh >> I'm glad we I'm glad you stayed on actually and we spoke about so many interesting things. Salam. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There's there's there was obviously more I wanted to talk about different topics but you know we'll have to save it for >> I mean we spoke about for so much right so you have to save that now we covered from philosophy to psychology to uh to evolution to you name it we we kind of covered it so alhamdulillah we definitely I look forward to many more of these you take very good care of

yourself and we will speak soon it's been a pleasure and may Allah bless for you and all our viewers uh this year and all the years to come. Amen. So take care. Speak soon. All right. And >> people that was Fahim. What an incredible conversation. I have to say that's just been absolutely spectacular.

I did love it. Absolutely. So, right, sorry, this just froze here for a moment. Uh, right. I'll leave you with that. I was just hoping to have a um brief one and a half hour conversation. It's almost doubled in time. You know, it's one of those things that they say, you know, whenever you expect something, double the time and double the budget.

[laughter] that's closer to reality. So, people take very good care of yourselves. And those of you that do want to reach out, those of you that you can see on the ticker below that if you'd like or need one-to-one consultations, you're more than welcome to visit patreon.com/malm and it's tier 2 and you can just go ahead and you can book yourself a one-to-one consultation and we'll pick it up there.

Other than that, take very good care of yourselves people and continue to really be a light for that positivity. And this discussion as well was really emblematic of regard, you know, just being able to to to engage dialogue regardless of where you stand.

you know, sometimes regardless of even the point of view because it's not rehearsed. I mean, I had no idea these discussions were going to come up. I'm not even so sure where I stand on some of these discussions. But to be able to engage them and just explore them, this is, you know, it is at the heights of the blessings of Allah. that that kind of meaningful conversational dialogical exchange that you can have and say Omar he said that you know it was from one of the greatest joys of life being able to hold those

evenings in conversation right guys take very good care of yourselves