# Isn't reason subjective, and is something good only because God commands it? *Is reason subjective? Moral relativism, al-Ghazali and the Euthyphro dilemma* - URL: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/zasz48lx_wi/s/8/ - Date: 2020-12-11 · Kind: discussion · Transcript tier: machine · Recording: Dr Javad T. Hashmi | Axis of Morality & Archetypal Myths in the Quran | MindTrap 46 |Mufti Abu Layth (29:42–33:58) - Status: general teaching - Watch from the start of the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAsz48lX_WI&t=1782s - Recording page: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/zasz48lx_wi/ **Topics:** Reason and revelation; Creed and the schools of theology; Philosophy and ideas **Summary (not a quotation; machine-made, unchecked):** The guest says the Ash'ari voluntarist view of ethics is the real relativism and argues for universal moral values grounded in God's nature; Mufti Abu Layth calls the Ash'ari denial of inherent good and bad nonsense. ## Longer summary Mufti Abu Layth puts the common objection that reason is subjective, since what is reasonable changes over centuries. The guest replies that the Ash'aris and the so-called orthodoxy are the greater moral relativists: al-Ghazali, whom he respects as a great intellectual, argued for cultural relativism, while the Mu'tazila and the modernists argued for a universal morality not subject to human desire, and he sees a strange alliance today between academic postmodernists and traditionalists. Referring to the Euthyphro dilemma, he calls it a false dilemma and favours a modified divine command theory in which good flows from God's nature, and says the Ash'ari ethical voluntarism is more relativist than the view that universal moral values exist even if people disagree on them. Mufti says he finds absurd the Ash'ari view that there is no good and bad except what God commands or forbids, calling it complete nonsense, and notes that Abu Hanifa and other early theologians opposed it. ## Sources and names cited - Dr Javad T. Hashmi (guest) - al-Ghazali - Ash'ari - Mu'tazila - the Euthyphro dilemma - divine command theory - ethical voluntarism - Abu Hanifa ## Transcript (machine tier, 29:42–33:58) [29:24] Once I let's say let's say I never had seen this verse before. Well, then even though I had at one point in time been convinced with my human rationality that this Quran is from Allah, now once I see this verse, my reason would say, "Wait a second, it might not be." I'm not trying to say that the Quran is something that we should not believe in. But what I'm saying is that we we we have to use reason continuously. Reason is not something that we just use to arrive at revelation and then stop. [29:51] And so that's that's my my way of thinking. And I'm inspired by the Islamic philosophers, the Mesazi and other uh freeth thinkers of the past as well as many Islamic modernists of the present. But people will say, doc um and they ask they say this to me all the time, but just putting it to you, they will say yes, but reason is very subjective. You know, using your reason, where do you draw the line? [30:19] because uh you know today you certain things are deemed reasonable which were not deemed reasonable 500 years ago and so on and so forth you know like whose reason this is often uh a question which of is is hurled at many people who as you know who advocate the voice of reason so what is your response to that absolutely so what I would say is actually the usheries are and the quote unquote orthodoxy they are more moral relativists than anyone else. [30:55] In fact, if you read and I respect Imam Ghazali a lot. I think he was a great intellectual but he was actually he would argue for cultural relativism. He argued very voseiferously for cultural relativism. On the other hand, it was the Islamic rationalists, the Mazalis and now the modernists who argued for universal morality which says that there is a belief that it's not subject to human desire whether or not something for example killing baby raping and killing babies is not okay in some cultures and not okay in others. [31:32] So in fact what we see today is this strange alliance between postmodernists in the academy and the uh traditionalists who follow this kind of moral relativist argument. So they actually and this goes back to the euthiferral problem right where they say are things good because God says they're good or does God say they're good because they are good? They are good. Yeah. Right. So I think this is a false dilemma. [31:57] I think uh there's the modified uh divine command theory which states things are good because of God's very nature. So it flows from God's nature what is good. So it's not subjective and neither is there these categories that exist before God. Rather good flows naturally from God. But the point I'm trying to say is once you have this ethical relativism it's called volunt uh ethical volunteerism. [32:25] That's what the usheries believe. That's actually more relativist than what [clears throat] than what I'm saying and what many Islamic modernist rationalists are saying, which is precisely that we have universal moral values which we should come to. Now, we might disagree what those are. Yeah. But we believe that they exist and we can say that there are at least some that we can agree on and some maybe there's disagreement on. [32:47] But it's so so I would I would throw this argue this accusation back against the traditionalists. Sure. So just just to just to unpack that a bit. So I mean the Asharis they their thing on this by the way I completely I I find it uh that element absurd that they say there is no no such thing as good and bad. It's just whatever God said do becomes good translates as good. [33:13] Whatever God said don't do translates as bad. Uh complete nonsense. As opposed to people like Imam Abuhanifh opposed that and as did uh some of the other earlier theologians. Coming to you, do you believe that uh there is uh I mean what how do you believe morality to be? I know recently there was a discussion between u Muhammad hijab and um apostate prophet which they kept it it was Daniel Hakikachu right? [33:44] Oh no also Muhammad hijab right? Yes. So there there was one also with the apostate prophet and I think it was uh facilitated by uh I've forgotten his name now the other Salah uh Adam Salah. So now on this he kept hijab kept saying uh do you believe in absolute morality or you know what what morality do you believe in and so uh he was arguing from a religious viewpoint that we have absolute morality himself. ## Cite Mufti Abu Layth Archive, segment ZAsz48lX_WI/s/8. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/zasz48lx_wi/s/8/ Not a fatwa: these answers were given to specific people at specific times. Ask a qualified scholar about your own situation.