# Are madrasas failing their students?

*The madrasa as defunct, and how those who deviate are blackballed*

- URL: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/zasz48lx_wi/s/4/
- Date: 2020-12-11 · Kind: discussion · Transcript tier: machine · Recording: Dr Javad T. Hashmi | Axis of Morality & Archetypal Myths in the Quran | MindTrap 46 |Mufti Abu Layth (10:05–15:30)
- Status: general teaching
- Watch from the start of the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAsz48lX_WI&t=605s
- Recording page: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/zasz48lx_wi/

**Topics:** Education, madrasas and seminaries; Cults, clergy and religious abuse; The Mufti and the channel

**Summary (not a quotation; machine-made, unchecked):** Mufti Abu Layth says the madrasa phenomenon is dysfunctional and dumbs students down though it supplies the raw materials; both say those who leave orthodox positions are ostracised, and the guest recommends a few years of traditional study combined with academic study.

## Longer summary

Mufti Abu Layth gives his own view that, while a madrasa can provide much good and the raw materials, the madrasa phenomenon, as opposed to any specific madrasa, is defunct and dysfunctional and is producing malfunctioning people, and that it would be brilliant if it taught and promoted critical thought. The guest adds a post-graduation weeding process, using Mufti as an example: fifteen years ago he was celebrated by Ash'aris, Maturidis and Sufis for confronting Salafis, but having changed his views he is now treated as a nobody, which the guest calls one way orthodoxy is controlled. Mufti describes it as cult-like, with a bullying, mafia-style pressure, guilt-tripping and boycotts by mosques and centres, and, while disparaging Daniel Haqiqatjou, cites him as saying that once his views changed he went from being lauded to being dismissed. The guest says that whoever deviates from the main group is blackballed, recommends a few years of traditional study combined with academic study, and the segment includes repeated microphone trouble.

## Sources and names cited

- Dr Javad T. Hashmi (guest)
- Daniel Haqiqatjou
- Ash'ari
- Maturidi
- Salafi
- madrasa

## Transcript (machine tier, 10:05–15:30)

[9:28] Now Yale is no Harvard. No, I'm just kid. That's just a joke. We have a rivalry with Harvard. Um but uh that shows you that he did find something of use in the western academy and I I I believe in that. So sorry the mic just slightly jumped in for a little while but uh uh right. Yep. So and you know just [clears throat] to to share on that um my my view as well very similarly is that I do feel that there's uh a lot of uh I mean there is a lot of good in what a madrasa can provide.

[10:05] However the madrasa currently is in my the madrasa phenomenon I'm not speaking about a specific madrasa is defunct. It's dysfunctional and it's producing malfunctioning people. So, um if it was improved, worked on in a way where it taught and promoted critical thought, it would be brilliant.

[10:32] Uh it still provides you a lot of uh it provides you the raw materials, but it dumbs you down so much in the process. I don't know if that raw material would be any good by the time you've left. I and and so I I think it's not only a pre-selective process. So there's that. Then it's the while you're doing the Madrasa training that there's a problem there where they either weed you out or you conform.

[10:57] And then even if you let's say you figure out a way to graduate and you did, right? you graduated and you went on then there's also a post uh weaning process where you could be 15 20 years out but if all and I I give your example so I remember 15 20 years ago I don't know if it's 20 years ago 15 years ago 10 15 years ago you were the great MU striking terror in the hearts of Salafis and you were the shining light of the ash the asharis and the matis and the sufis and wow and and and if you had stayed along that traditionalist line of thinking today,

[11:37] you would be a grand muti right now. But because you've now deviated from the thoughts, now suddenly you're a nothing. You're a nobody. They've they've disassociated themselves from you. So even though you had the madrasa training and all this they tried to say to the masses that value that training that no he doesn't count because to be a scholar you have to have certain associations which he no longer has. So the point I'm trying to make is that when I was making this decision I said what's the point of me to study there if the people who value that sort of training are going to kick me out of the gang anyways.

[12:12] So that's the reason why I decided against it and that's I think one of the ways they control orthodoxy. Yeah. It it becomes a cult and what happens is you also your opportunities get incredibly you limited. You become strong armed. There's there's a kind of non it's not in your face but there is a kind of bullying that takes place.

[12:38] you start to a mafioso kind of approach where listen you're not allowed to say this you know you'll get people calling you you'll get people telling you your ads are now upset with you uh this kind of stuff you know this guilt tripping um if you're looking to speak get involved in local Islamic communities or centers or masids they will start boycotting you if you start becoming different yeah it's a it is an a very look at this look at this like Daniel Hakeiku he himself now I think he's crazy and nuts and one step away from strapping himself with bombs and blowing himself up.

[13:13] But he's fun he's fun to watch though nonetheless and uh you know he himself said something that I said you know what you're quite right about that he he used to be called they used to call him ad as soon as he attack you know changed his viewpoints then they said he doesn't even know Arabic he's this he's that he's he's stupid and then he himself said so I went from ad to like nothing and I don't think he should have been called But the point is, I think, valid that he makes, which is that uh if you deviate from the orthodoxy or the what's considered the main group, they're going

[13:52] to blackball you. And so that's why I think going to a Madrasa I I think if you're going to if you if you're going to do anything, I think studying a few years traditionally is a good idea and then combine that study. Yes, that's my private jet. [laughter] All right. Uh actually somebody had asked that because your your mic thing has slightly changed if you could maybe just replplug it.

[14:19] Uh it might kind of uh I'll tell my pilot as well. Not at this hour. [laughter] No, you're right. Again, there you go. That's right there. It came for a moment. Okay. Okay. So, let uh please whoever's watching, please do let us know cuz I think I think it kind of if you if you do that again because it came for a moment and it's gone it's gone back to that kind of uh distant stereo thing.

[14:46] So, just Yes. So, I I'll just just telling the uh viewers to you you do that. Yeah, I totally agree that uh it's a difficult thing when people ask uh us about the madrasa to advise because you know you look at the end product and you think yeah we could do without that is that is that okay uh yeah I changed it back um it just because of the headphones for some reason it keeps it keeps changing back and forth that's epic right yeah now this intellectual history this Islamic first of all the intellectual side and this legacy of Islam is something that's always been very attractive to you and

[15:24] you know you've uh in invested a lot in learning and promoting this. Tell us a bit about a bit about this and your interest in it. Uh do yeah so I haven't really put anything out publicly much yet other than I did teach a series on Islamic intellectual history which maybe some people would uh uh know of me from that. Um, but that is one of my interests is Islamic intellectual history. And it's precisely because, and this is a problem with the Madrasa traditional Islamic learning system, is that I think they're gaslighting us.

## Cite

Mufti Abu Layth Archive, segment ZAsz48lX_WI/s/4. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/zasz48lx_wi/s/4/

Not a fatwa: these answers were given to specific people at specific times. Ask a qualified scholar about your own situation.