# Why does the Quran give so little detail about some prophets?

*Why are some prophets barely mentioned? Archetypes, Ibn Kathir and Tolstoy*

- URL: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/zasz48lx_wi/s/33/
- Date: 2020-12-11 · Kind: discussion · Transcript tier: machine · Recording: Dr Javad T. Hashmi | Axis of Morality & Archetypal Myths in the Quran | MindTrap 46 |Mufti Abu Layth (2:25:43–2:33:08)
- Status: general teaching
- Watch from the start of the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAsz48lX_WI&t=8743s
- Recording page: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/zasz48lx_wi/

**Topics:** Stories of the prophets; How to read the Quran

**Summary (not a quotation; machine-made, unchecked):** The guest says the brief, repeated stories are archetypes recalled to console the Prophet, which audiences already knew; Mufti Abu Layth argues that following an archetype does not show a story was invented.

## Longer summary

Mufti Abu Layth notes that while Moses, Adam and Joseph are told in elaborate detail, prophets such as John (Yahya) are barely described, and asks what purpose that serves if the stories are legends. The guest says nineteenth- and early twentieth-century orientalists called the Quran haphazard and repetitive because it lacks a chronological narrative, and that Ibn Kathir's Stories of the Prophets had to reorder the verses and fill them in from hadith and Isra'iliyyat; read alone, he says, the Quranic stories cannot be understood. He says the stories, including those of Ad and Thamud where prophets go unnamed, are archetypal and serve a moral point for a specific moment in the Prophet's mission, usually consolation that earlier prophets were also rejected, briefly recalled because the audience knew them. Mufti replies that, as Tolstoy said that all great stories begin with a journey or a stranger coming to town, true events are also told in archetypal form, so following an archetype does not show a story was invented.

## Sources and names cited

- Dr Javad T. Hashmi (guest)
- Yahya (John)
- Yusuf (Joseph)
- Musa (Moses)
- Adam
- Ibn Kathir
- Qisas al-Anbiya (Ibn Kathir's Stories of the Prophets)
- Israiliyyat
- Leo Tolstoy

## Transcript (machine tier, 2:25:43–2:33:08)

[2:25:19] No, it refers to uh Western colonialism. No, it refers to the Soviet Union. No, it refers to my you know somebody might say it refers to my ex-wife. you know, you could say anything, you know. Um, so so I that's but but we may disagree here. Um, and that's, you know, that's from my Quranic studies and as a from as a western academic that's what it's kind of pushed me in this direction. And then I also read the Islamic philosophers of the past and and I think that this is consistent with I just feel that there's like several people.

[2:25:51] So for example there is a story of uh the story of Musa Alisam and the story of Adam which and the story of Joseph which are kind of mentioned with uh in great elaborate detail and they're kind of repetitive some of them like Moses and Adam but like you will get mention of people like let's say John now take this book hold on to it what the scripture hold on to it doesn't really mention mention much about him like it doesn't go into the story.

[2:26:24] So what's the purpose then if this is all okay cuz why not just mention a nice little story that people could take away. So one of the criticisms of orientalists of the 19th and early 20th century was precisely that they found the Quran to be um haphazard and repetitive confusing jumbled up and they said it's not like other books we've read even scripture that we've read where you start from Genesis and then you say these are the historical genealogies and you go in this orderly chronological fact stories

[2:27:01] In fact, in fact, uh if you look at, you know, those books like Iben Kafir has written stories of the prophets, they have to take the Quran and reorder all the verses and fill them in with details that they get from the hadith. And really those are from this the bunn is you know um that the isat sorry that's where he has to fill it in from.

[2:27:24] Um so the point is if you just take the Quran and suppose that it should stand by itself without any backgrounds understanding these Quranic stories is impossible and the Quran then is a is not a good literary book then it does not do a good job of I agree with you that some of the the prophet's stories are repeated multiple times but even there a critic could say the stories are repeated in different ways the conversation between God and the prophet would differ.

[2:27:57] So in in in when he when God is talking to Moses in one story, the conversation is different than in another story. So, so the the historical criticism against the Quran was precisely that it doesn't do a good job of conveying these stories in a I I would you see my point is that it would then see that's my point in saying that if it was like if the purpose was to just express a like uh rearticulate reexpress sorry a a legend in very uh in revelatory form.

[2:28:33] That's not the purpose though. The purpose is to convey something that the prophet needed at that specific moment. Sure. No, sure. I get that. But let's say if the story is a story, then in that sense it would I think that theory could hold weight if the way you have surah Ysef which is a story just about Joseph and which is an exception.

[2:28:57] Yeah. Which is an which is an elaborate story. Uh if you had stories like that every time a prophet was being mentioned, I could think that okay, this theory could hold some weight in saying interesting because I'm taking it the other way around. You see, because then it would be a detailed legend to take away. But if you're going to mention that's if you're taking it as historical reality, you would expect a fuller detailed story, but you would you would at least expect a story to be able to take some moral from it.

[2:29:28] But they are. No, but when when you have people like let's say John Yah being mentioned or you're going to have there isn't really much mentioned about these prophets or when you're going to mention like let's say uh is mentioned in the Quran that oh his children are asking him or you know who should we worship and so on and there isn't like there isn't a story like there there's just a little thing being mentioned but it's not a story to really I mean one could say obviously you take any meaning from any verse of the Quran.

[2:30:01] But what I'm trying to say is if the purpose is to really uh present a story then it's not really ticking that box with only it is with some like okay with Adam with Musa Alisam with one could uh you know with with Ysef Alisam maybe with Ibraim but and maybe with Jes but it mentions several other prophets where it doesn't really give much about them.

[2:30:29] Uh so so let me give you an example. Um and Tamud the stories of Ad and Tamud and you had Sal and you had sometimes the sometimes uh who and sometimes the pro the Quran doesn't even mention the name of the prophets. It simply says they were a people and um and they were destroyed. Yet all of these story in fact I get the opposite conclusion of you and it's not just me who gets the opposite conclusion.

[2:30:55] it's western uh Quranic studies scholars who actually have now shown that almost all of these stories are archetypal stories that follow the same u general pattern because the purpose of these stories for example a huge but is that not the but [laughter] is that not the nature of stories generally so like if I'm the purpose the purpose of a story in the Quran is not for entertainment the purpose of the Quranic story is for a moral lesson on a specific point that has to do with a specific moment in the prophetic mission.

[2:31:32] So it has to do many of the stories have to do with the same point which is prophet oh prophet Muhammad do not be so distressed that your people have turned against you take heart and solace in the fact that this happened to all of these previous prophets and then it names them and that seems like it's just cursory. it it barely mentions them because because those people already knew those stories and so it's saying remember the story recall the story the mention of the story this is because they were already known so the purpose of the Quran is different than the purpose of even the Bible

[2:32:11] no I get that but what I'm saying is that look it's like a bit like I suppose how Leo to Toltoy said that look all great stories begin with uh a man going on a journey or a strange comes into town. Now that's like an archetype. Yeah. Now the point is that if you were to narrate a story about let's say an event in your life at some point you would narrate it in a way that stories are often expressed like you would say you know I on this one time I set off I went to Boston.

[2:32:44] Now that is I suppose how Toltoy is saying look all great stories either you know a stranger comes into town. Now just because or a man goes off on a journey now you're saying hey I went off to Boston now because you're fitting the archetype that doesn't lead to the conclusion that because it has an archetype therefore it is invented because stories are invented based on archetypes.

[2:33:07] So I'm not saying so I'm not saying not invent not invented sorry but fictitious as in non realistic based on the archetype argument. Well, I'm taking them as sacred legends which could be based in historical events or it could be might not be but it could be and uh it's dramatized in a certain way and um it's rearticulated in a certain way.

## Cite

Mufti Abu Layth Archive, segment ZAsz48lX_WI/s/33. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/zasz48lx_wi/s/33/

Not a fatwa: these answers were given to specific people at specific times. Ask a qualified scholar about your own situation.