# Is it wrong to expect something back when you lend money? *Safety nets and the profit motive: is wanting a return wrong?* - URL: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/wce73zqci_i/s/30/ - Date: 2020-07-10 · Kind: discussion · Transcript tier: machine · Recording: Shaykh Omar Baloch | Cynicism, Consumerism & the Catch 22 of Riba | Mindtrap with Mufti #30 (1:55:10–1:59:04) - Status: general teaching - Watch from the start of the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCe73zqCi_I&t=6910s - Recording page: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/wce73zqci_i/ **Topics:** Riba, mortgages and loans **Summary (not a quotation; machine-made, unchecked):** Mufti Abu Layth says modern lending has safety nets that loan sharks lack, and that people being motivated by a return is nothing wrong. ## Longer summary Mufti Abu Layth says that, unlike loan sharking, credit cards and loans operate within a framework with safety nets such as debt management and insolvency programmes, and that the percentages on ordinary unsecured loans are not of that kind, while he is not trying to justify banking greed. The guest says card companies still pile charges on anyone who defaults, and Mufti replies that in the UK debts are means-tested and go through the courts. Mufti says a borrower naturally wants to repay nothing extra while a lender asks why he should lend ten thousand to get ten thousand back, and stresses that he is speaking of society rather than personal loans between friends. Mufti says human beings as a species are not philanthropists and are motivated by 'what's in it for me', and that there is nothing wrong with that. ## Sources and names cited - Shaykh Omar Baloch - riba ## Transcript (machine tier, 1:55:10–1:59:04) [1:54:30] is now just saying this is a better way I accept the point was why was Rick like is rebar still the way it is understood historically because I would say that you see that kind of greed of human society to some extent isn't necessary however you define it this system that we have now if it's not ribah it's worse than River because the way you're gonna define it as what it was just personal loans giving people giving to each other and that was the problem if that was a problem this is a bigger problem no because there's a difference between loan shark Rhee and between what are [1:55:09] just standard loans so I so Stan it depends on the exactly depends on the or not yes sure but critic but but but but but but but but you see when you operate with credit cards when you operate with these things you operate within a greater framework that as many safety minutes so you have like even with credit cards you could go on debt management programs you can go on insolvency programs you can go on you see the system I'm not saying it's necessarily I'm not trying to justify this kind of banking thing greed but what I'm trying to say is it's not loan shark reaiize a-- you know you've got to [1:55:49] be legit like it's not that kind of a percentage that the banks are taking from you for a general non-secured wrong you may say that but the thing is that these card cards are taking putting that percentage on anyone who's defaulting right that's happening anyone who has a Discover card doesn't pay his bill he is to pay okay the same thing with the bank anybody who takes a loan has to pay do you know but wait a minute do you have to pay back if you can't do you have to pay back if you can't you see because here there are systems so for example [1:56:28] you would be means tested and Angie would cut it would take it to court I'm sure I mean and I'm not here to you see my point isn't once again to kind of say that it's not trying to justify some kind of banking system is trying to more vocalize on what is river and whether it is today still seen as these things as loans loans today to be fair this the general society I you see I already began by saying if I'm the person taking a loan then you have a different perspective to the one giving the loan [1:57:08] if I'm the one taking I don't want to give back personally a pain I don't even want to give that back that's my human kind of desires like if I took twenty thousand I would want it yeah wipe it off for me please this is as a human being this is how we would this how we feel the person giving is thinking I don't want to just give ten thousand and take back ten thousand then why the hell am i giving so I would say it the other way brother which is that if you're a type of person that has a good heart and somebody no I don't mean no yeah nobody I don't I don't mean look I don't mean I don't mean I please give me $10,000 I am sure you're not gonna give me just sales [1:57:48] another thing hey give me back 13,000 no of course right but you see no ship ship ship ship I'm speaking about society not about individuals I don't mean like if I went to a friend and I said to a friend no but for because what I think you're doing is you're giving examples of personal loans and then moving it into commercial no I'm talking about human species today for the forest to flourish the way society flourishes we can't just do it without this kind of without being able to get money now [1:58:24] now the people giving the money will not just give human beings as a species we're not just philanthropists you know we're not just like hey I've got this keep taking it away taking away from me yes we might do the occasional charitable act and we may be great people with good hearts but people are motivated by that what's in it for me you know the greatest 5-wood what's in it for me so if somebody comes hey give me five thousand but what's in it for me give me fifty thousand what's in it for me so and there's nothing wrong with that even the Quran even the Koran you see like if I could just say that even the Quran I think part of the problem is is ## Cite Mufti Abu Layth Archive, segment wCe73zqCi_I/s/30. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/wce73zqci_i/s/30/ Not a fatwa: these answers were given to specific people at specific times. Ask a qualified scholar about your own situation.