# Why might the Quran's ban on riba not apply to modern loans?

*Foreclosed family homes and the zero-sum economy of early Islam*

- URL: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/wce73zqci_i/s/27/
- Date: 2020-07-10 · Kind: discussion · Transcript tier: machine · Recording: Shaykh Omar Baloch | Cynicism, Consumerism & the Catch 22 of Riba | Mindtrap with Mufti #30 (1:42:19–1:46:53)
- Status: general teaching
- Watch from the start of the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCe73zqCi_I&t=6139s
- Recording page: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/wce73zqci_i/

**Topics:** Riba, mortgages and loans

**Summary (not a quotation; machine-made, unchecked):** Mufti Abu Layth argues that Quranic riba belonged to a zero-sum economy and does not apply to modern loans; the guest describes its human cost.

## Longer summary

The guest says that through his roofing business he has been inside hundreds of foreclosed middle-class houses, with family pictures left behind by people who had paid for years. Mufti Abu Layth says he agrees that bankers can be capricious and is not there to justify them, but explains why he does not see riba applying to today's loans or mortgages: he feels it came when society was zero-sum, with the gold in a region more or less fixed and agriculture static, so wealth could only change hands. The guest cites the Quran's concern that wealth should not circulate only among the rich, says the rich hoard or speculate when the economy is bad, and describes a poor borrower facing compound interest who might have to give up his children or wish the earth would swallow him, which he says is why God declared war on riba as worse than murder.

## Sources and names cited

- Shaykh Omar Baloch
- riba
- Quran 59:7: https://quran.com/59/7
- Quran 2:279: https://quran.com/2/279

## Transcript (machine tier, 1:42:19–1:46:53)

[1:41:39] with that essence that look and I actually do feel in the UK it's not that easy to just I saw I saw I'm obviously not familiar with that system over there because here it's not that easy to just say well oh you defaulted on a payment out you go we've taken over the house it doesn't work that easily because the home is a sacred space and society does recognize that so either but they eventually get it usually now it is it takes up to a year okay right like a year but they eventually get it I was trying to more kind of like Zone in on the discussion of rebirth something personal I have a roofing company ok and

[1:42:19] a lot of the houses I have to fix the roof on is classes the houses that had foreclosures ok ok and I have been to hundreds of houses hundreds of houses middle-class they have a swimming pool everything is perfect see America America here we could never have so important of opportunities they have the picture of the families they've left behind houses are empty nice houses you know they used you could tell this was a healthy middle-class family that has lost his house right lost its home or

[1:42:58] all the yeah right that's probably more proper word lost a home and and probably now they're out wherever they are whatever situation they're they invested in this house you know these are houses less I made in the 1930s and they probably bought it in the 70s and they've been paying mortgage for the last five six years and then something bad happened and they can't pay it and a year went by and finally they got the notice they have to leave and so where this is happening but I you know I agree with you share on and I agree with everyone that says that look the bankers are you know people say bankers are bastards and they like this and they

[1:43:38] like that and I will agree with you I've gotten I'm not here to justify their kind of caprices and their capricious kind of desires and and the amount of money they take back I get all of that I was simply saying that look first I was trying to more Zone in from well this thing of Reba because I don't see applying to this today to these kind of loans or mortgages or things like this because I feel that this came at a time in Islam where it was a zero-sum society so for example the amount of gold within a certain region was locked in there was no real way of having substantial

[1:44:17] revenue for that region ever to change an unless you raided the neighboring region and brought in their gold yes maybe some people might discover a few you know a few piles of gold here or there a tiny amount but on a societal if I know the commodities were also currency no yes they were but but yeah but the river they had to some degree in their history yeah sure but even that even that even that societies agriculturally were not growing exponentially

[1:44:56] there was like reasonably static yes maybe somebody kind of regenerated some new land but it wasn't overall changing the dynamics of a kind of geography so it was a zero-sum game so you whatever you had was pretty much locked in and Mikayla took this is why a lie saying that it becomes do let some banal up in here because once I take money I lend some money to somebody yeah because I'm talking about River here because they will you see when like let's say let's say H people when the societies are in depression and the economy is bad that's

[1:45:35] a time where you need to be investing surely it back I am ends up happening what ends up happening is the rich people they do one of the two things they either store all their money so they don't put it back into society or because they're not getting the same interest rates because the interest rates have gone down now because you know the economy is in a bad shape so what they do is they put it in more risky investments more risky stocks hoping that I know I agree agree with you ship but what I'm saying here in this verse where lie saying that like a lot hakuna that this world it doesn't end up becoming dual attempt 811 yeah in that day and age if I let's say I'm a

[1:46:14] poor person I borrow from you now 1000 pounds or 1000 dinars now you see I I don't have no other no other money he's gonna enter my world so how am I supposed to pay back so I'm hoping for something to happen and I'm struggling and now this debt is is this compound interest you're adding and it's ridiculous and then what you're gonna do is you're gonna end up kind of like saying well I know I'll enslave your kids or you become my slave or we'll do this and people would wish that you know what I wish that like the imminence that the earth will swallow me and I just died rather than having to face this

## Cite

Mufti Abu Layth Archive, segment wCe73zqCi_I/s/27. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/wce73zqci_i/s/27/

Not a fatwa: these answers were given to specific people at specific times. Ask a qualified scholar about your own situation.