# Does Ali's saying about wiping the socks prove that religion is not based on reason?

*'If the deen were by opinion': Ali's report on wiping the khuff, and why rituals are not against reason*

- URL: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/uuldzklvxvo/s/13/
- Date: 2018-04-09 · Kind: lesson · Transcript tier: machine · Recording: The Role Of Reason In Religion - Mufti Abu Layth (1:01:20–1:05:16)
- Status: general teaching
- Watch from the start of the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuLDZkLvxvo&t=3680s
- Recording page: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/uuldzklvxvo/

**Topics:** Reason and revelation; Narrator criticism; Purification

**Summary (not a quotation; machine-made, unchecked):** No: Mufti Abu Layth says the 'if the deen were by opinion' wording has a weak chain and is absent from several versions, that Malik's Muwatta records wiping both sides of the khuff, and that rituals are practices rather than claims against reason.

**Checked position (checked by two independent reviews, not by the channel):** Mufti Abu Layth says the report attributed to Ali that the bottom of the khuff would deserve wiping if religion were by opinion is weak in its chain and absent from several versions, that Malik's Muwatta records wiping both top and bottom, and that rituals are practices rather than claims against reason.

**Evidence, his words at 1:01:59:** “this hadith I don't personally even in that narration I don't accept it to be sorry there are huge problems in the chain” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuLDZkLvxvo&t=3719s)

## Longer summary

Mufti Abu Layth examines the report attributed to Ali that if the religion were by opinion the bottom of the leather sock would deserve wiping more than the top, but that he saw the Prophet wipe the top, which is transmitted in Abu Dawud, Musnad Ahmad, al-Bazzar, Abu Ya'la and other books and is cited to show that not everything in Islam makes sense. He says he does not accept that wording as sound: its chain runs through al-A'mash, a mudallis, and Abu Ishaq al-Sabi'i, generally reliable men who nonetheless had problems, one known for tadlis and one whose memory failed later in life, and in the versions in Musnad Ahmad, Abu Ya'la and al-Bazzar the phrase about opinion is absent and Ali only says he saw the Prophet wipe in this way. Second, Imam Malik records in the Muwatta that Ibn Shihab wiped both the top and the bottom, reflecting the practice of Madinah, and wiping the bottom is sunnah in the Maliki school, so the premise holds only in some schools. Third, rituals as such are not claims against reason: every faith has worship, and the particular form of a ritual, one bowing rather than two, is not meant to have an objective beyond being performed; nobody, not even scientists, demands that rituals be defined by reason, and the concept of ritual accords with reason. He then turns to the question of miracles in the Quran.

## Sources and names cited

- report: if the deen were by opinion the bottom of the khuff would deserve wiping more than the top
- Ali ibn Abi Talib
- al-A'mash
- Abu Ishaq al-Sabi'i
- Imam Malik
- Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri
- al-Muwatta
- Sunan Abi Dawud
- Musnad Ahmad
- Musnad al-Bazzar
- Musnad Abi Ya'la
- mash over the khuff (wiping over leather socks)
- tadlis (mudallis)
- Maliki school

## Transcript (machine tier, 1:01:20–1:05:16)

[1:00:41] had doubt 100 Lehr be shocked and we are more deserving of such a doubt like if it's going to lead to a pure pristine understanding of of Allah and Islam then we are more deserving of it so yes there are these things the other criticism is you get an absurdity it's like I need to clarify these people say over not everything in Islam is gonna make sense you know and they will transmit so they're going to first of all resort to a hadith no it's not a hadith but an ether of of Sedna Ali

[1:01:20] rhodiola whan we said lo Canady no beret that if this Deen was by acolo by understanding opinion then we ought to wipe under the hoof when we're doing like if you've got like socks or leather socks off on her feign then you what he said we ought to wipe under but I saw the Prophet wipe over now this is transmitted in several books things like Abu Dawood Muslim armoured of Muslims of bazaar Abu yeah Allah all these kind of books now first of all just to kind of

[1:01:59] clarify that this hadith I don't personally even in that narration I don't accept it to be sorry there are huge problems in the chain this people like this is transmitted through our mush who is a motherless and this chain comes my on but that's there's another person in the chain known as Abu is Huck I serve a ie and now he has although he these are generally reliable people but they have problems with them once again somebody known for that least known for certain things somebody who forgot it later on in his life now this heavy I'm calling

[1:02:38] it a hadith loosely but this author of save gnarly is transmitted in in some of its rewired in the Muslim vomit in the Muslims of Abu yalla of bizarre and what does it say it doesn't even mention that part it only mentions that I saw the Prophet do Massa like this on the whole thing now so that's to start off with second most important point if that was the case I said an ally of the law on who's saying then what does he mom Alexei in the motto Imam Malik in the motto says I saw evening Shabbos ovary

[1:03:16] and and he's reflecting the practice in Medina now how do we do Messiah over her fame he says we go on the top and the bottom and it is in the Maliki mother to do Massa under the bottom is Sunnah so that's not even the case that he's saying although it is the case in the hand of he mother the other methods don't even accept that so that's an important point and the third the final point is this is rituals anyway rituals are not meant to be rituals as a concept is understood that look every faith has worship fine that makes sense how is

[1:03:55] that worship defined that's just a ritual that's not something which is counter reason that's just a practice it's like so why do you have one ruku and not to recuse well it's just a ritual it's not rituals are never by their by their nature are not meant to be an act with an objective except for filling it so but the concept of ritual and worship is in accordance with reason the finites of rituals were never ever nobody demands and I mean it's not nobody in any knot you know like

[1:04:34] scientists or anybody says that rituals need to be defined by reason they don't people have rituals in life they do things it gives them some strength it does certain things they're just rituals people have but the concept of rituals is not counter reason so that's something that's important to understand and people then ask okay but what about stuff in the Quran like miracles and all this kind of stuff this is a big one then people kind of come back and say oh my god you know if you believe in this then and I say look first of all go back to the

[1:05:12] first point we have to believe in reason to know other faiths are not true because if you dismiss reason then every faith can be true now come to this question what about miracles well I've explained look miracles are like a spectrum right miracles do exist miracles is like a spectrum what you're what you mean by miracles you're trying to say something that goes against the laws of nature against as in breaks and isn't not part of the laws of me the laws of nature are a laurs laws Allah

## Cite

Mufti Abu Layth Archive, segment UuLDZkLvxvo/s/13. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/uuldzklvxvo/s/13/

Not a fatwa: these answers were given to specific people at specific times. Ask a qualified scholar about your own situation.