# Did the scholars ever agree on what counts as riba?

*No agreement on what riba covers: delay in barter, mobile phones and the schools' disagreement*

- URL: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/ucdrblygy70/s/6/
- Date: 2017-10-19 · Kind: lesson · Transcript tier: machine · Recording: Are Mortgages & Bank Loans Haram? - Mufti Abu Layth (17:12–21:46)
- Status: general teaching
- Watch from the start of the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucdrbLyGY70&t=1032s
- Recording page: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/ucdrblygy70/

**Topics:** Riba, mortgages and loans; Schools of law and following them

**Summary (not a quotation; machine-made, unchecked):** There has never been clarity or agreement on what riba applies to: the Hanafi, Shafi'i and Maliki schools each defined its scope differently, and nobody calls a phone-for-phones swap riba. No scholar has given Mufti Abu Layth a satisfying explanation of why delay in barter is riba.

**Checked position (checked by two independent reviews, not by the channel):** Mufti Abu Layth says there has never been agreement or clarity among the scholars on what riba applies to, and that none of the senior scholars he has asked has given a satisfying explanation of why delaying one side of a barter between different goods is riba.

**Evidence, his words at 18:43:** “I've never come across a kind of thirst-quenching explanation on why uh bartering the delaying of one of the kind of product is riba.” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucdrbLyGY70&t=1123s)

## Longer summary

Mufti Abu Layth asks why delaying payment in a barter between different categories, such as dates collected tomorrow for wheat taken today, should be riba when the goods are not fluctuating currency, and says Ibn Ulayya [?] and a few scholars were the only ones to say it was fine. He says he has asked almost every senior scholar he could to explain it and none gave a thirst-quenching explanation beyond a possibility of exploitation, so it makes little rational sense to start with. He then asks what riba operates in: nobody calls one phone for three phones, a house for two houses or a car swap riba. He says the schools massively disagreed: the Hanafis read the hadith as covering goods sold by weight and measure, the Shafi'is as covering food, and the Malikis as covering storable food, so that apples are riba for the Hanafis and not for the Malikis. He concludes that there was never any clarity from the outset on what riba was speaking about, and that he is explaining this to make it relevant to today.

## Sources and names cited

- riba
- Ibn Ulayya [?]
- Hanafi school
- Shafi'i school
- Maliki school

## Transcript (machine tier, 17:12–21:46)

[17:04] So half a whole entire category of riba Ibn Abbas completely denied. The other thing is why on earth is when the categories are different are we not allowed to delay the payment? Why are we not allowed to delay the payment? Now so sorry why are we like we're bartering if I'm taking wheat from you for dates why am I not allowed to say collect dates from me tomorrow?

[17:37] Why does it have to be hand in hand? How does that become riba? I mean I can understand if I was exchanging gold for gold that maybe tomorrow the value of gold would change. If it was fluctuating that suddenly but why with bartering if the categories are different? So Ibn Ulayyah and some scholars are the only scholars who said that that's okay like it this doesn't make any sense.

[18:04] Now I'm coming to this about the riba from a bank. Now this is setting out the premise. This is important to understand. Right now I have asked I asked every or almost every senior scholar I could imagine in this day and age to explain this to me. And wallahi not a single I mean they could explain it and they could give an understanding which I could arrive at anyway and which is you know, it's it's not even I mean that okay, that maybe some exploitation could come about but nobody can has

[18:43] explained I've never come across a kind of thirst-quenching explanation on why uh bartering the delaying of one of the kind of product is riba. It doesn't make any like it doesn't make much rational sense okay to start off with. Now then the thing is okay, these four categories are mentioned in the Hadith what about other things?

[19:11] What about so for example, what about mobile phones? Nobody believes there's riba in mobile phones nobody. I could give you this is a Samsung. I could give you one Samsung for three Samsungs. Nobody will call that riba. I could swap your house for another house for two houses. Nobody will call that riba.

[19:37] I could swap your car. They dis Now when it came to what will what does riba operate in? The scholars massively disagreed. There's never been any agreement to start off with. So the Hanafi method looked at this Hadith and said, well, riba based on wheat, barley, dates, and salt, this is to do with scalable and wayable products.

[20:04] So, riba is in wayable and scalable products only. The Maliki method looked at this and said, no, this is to do with food. And the Shafi said, this is to do with food. The Maliki said, no, but this is a particular type of food that is that that is storable. So, these are products which you can store for almost a year.

[20:30] So, they're not perishable or easily perishable items. Hence, there is no such riba according to the Maliki method in things like fruits. I could trade apples with you. And I could take more or less. The Maliki method says that's not riba. Because there's no riba in fruits. But, according to the Hanafis, that's riba.

[20:56] Why? Because you scale them when you sell them. So, there was never a clear understanding on what riba actually is. Everybody agreeing that on several things, huge things, there is no riba. Like even though linguistically does exist. So, like the mobile phone example is a good example.

[21:21] Like swords in the past, I'll give you one sword for two swords. I'll give you this shield for this many shields. Right. Why am I Why am I explaining this? I'm going to come to I'm going to make it relevant for us in a moment, but I need to explain this to show that there was never from the offset any clarity in what riba was actually speaking about.

## Cite

Mufti Abu Layth Archive, segment ucdrbLyGY70/s/6. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/ucdrblygy70/s/6/

Not a fatwa: these answers were given to specific people at specific times. Ask a qualified scholar about your own situation.