# Why did Imam Malik prefer the practice of Medina over hadith chains? *Malik, Shafii and the isnad project: living tradition versus the chain* - URL: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/tr4-gh0qez4/s/25/ - Date: 2020-08-04 · Kind: question · Transcript tier: machine · Recording: Monday Nights with Mufti Abu Layth #176 *Q&A Unscripted & Unrestricted!* 🤣 (2:02:45–2:13:00) - Status: general teaching - Watch from the start of the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR4-gh0qEZ4&t=7365s - Recording page: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/tr4-gh0qez4/ **Topics:** Authenticating hadith; The Maliki school; Sunnah versus hadith **Question as asked:** The Malikis rejected hadith that contradict the practice of Medina for the same reason that the Shafiis rejected Medinan practice in favour of sound hadith: distrust of the other method. What do you say? **Summary (not a quotation; machine-made, unchecked):** Mufti Abu Layth says the chain was once subordinate to the living tradition of Medina; al-Shafii's isnad project replaced regional trust with loyalty to the chain. **Checked position (checked by two independent reviews, not by the channel):** Mufti Abu Layth says that in Imam Malik's time the chain was still subservient to the living tradition. **Evidence, his words at 2:07:02:** “Now the issue is the chain in this stage is still subservient to the living tradition. So the isnad exists but we have more trust in the inherited living tradition of Islam.” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR4-gh0qEZ4&t=7622s) ## Longer summary A chat questioner argues that the Malikis rejected hadith contradicting the practice of Medina for the same reason the Shafiis rejected Medinan practice in favour of sound hadith. Mufti Abu Layth answers with an account of what he calls the hadith or isnad project, voiced by Imam al-Shafii, which made the chain objective. Mufti says that in Imam Malik's time the chain existed, Malik himself having the golden chain, but was subservient to the living tradition of Medina, and that Malik warned that one-to-one chains would snatch the deen away. Mufti says Abu Hanifa had Kufa and others had their own regional traditions, while al-Shafii, who studied only briefly with Malik, could claim neither long companionship with Malik nor a region in Egypt, so the new loyalty became the chain, followed by the second wave of hadith compilers. ## Sources and names cited - Imam Malik - al-Shafii - Abu Hanifa - isnad - practice of the people of Medina - living tradition as a source ## Transcript (machine tier, 2:02:45–2:13:00) [2:02:44] Mariam Mo. Hi Mariam Mo. Is it Mariam Mo always usually presents these kind of like salify answers like I I I get the feeling like this is like a like a hater that [laughter] I don't know if you are you might actually be a supporter so but that's the vibe I always get uh Mariam Moz but you do definitely always tune in so I have to kind of w dedication I like it you know this one I like it so Mariam Moes Your surname is a bit freaky, but where's that question gone? [2:03:21] All right, so I don't know why they named you death. [laughter] They got hired. [laughter] Let's give her an optimistic name. Death. [laughter] So, all right. So, where did the question go? Right. Please. Mi uh Malikis have rejected hadith that contradict Madin and Amal for the very same reason that Sheris have um what hadith are these that they've rejected sorry they've rejected hadith that contradict oh yes [2:03:59] of course of course the Shafi have rejected Mad and favor of sound hadith distrust of manh [laughter] Aa since let let me roll the sleeves up. Huh? This all right people. I'm going to let's have a few words on this. [2:04:25] Yeah. This whole hadith project of and and this whole ilk. [snorts] You see the truth is let's be honest. Yeah. Let's Nobody speaks about you know they speak about the chain they don't speak about the elephants in the CHAIN [laughter] [2:04:52] la this people this uh I have to get my [laughter] I'm going to speak about the elephant in the chain because first of all let me tell you I feel that look what's happened those of you that don't know this great hadith project that took place by and by the hadith project just to be clear about what I mean is the uh the kind of um [clears throat] [2:05:24] the sovereignizing of the isnad okay the this project the sovereignization of the isnad uh that takes place with and is voiced by Imam Shafi I don't know whether he came up with it But he's definitely one of the voice pieces for this thing. It is really to say that let's objectify the isnad. It's like a scientific approach to the isnad. [2:05:52] So we will now uh and I'm going to give you the backdrop to where this is coming from. What they are saying in essence is that when Imam Malik you see the hadith project had already begun. So the hadith project begins really uh I mean earlier on in the first century [clears throat] some people are quoting hadith but really it begins with people like the then it starts to get compiled [2:06:25] those people of Medina undermiz which is at the turn of the century 100 90 years after the prophet but is not being documented yet although some people may be speaking it within the next maybe 10 years it starts to get documented isnad as well chains so hadith exists at this stage the isnad exists so in the time of Imam Malik so Imam Malik is writing his m let's say it's for argument sake let's say it's um 150 hy so it's gone into the abbisid era [2:07:02] post 130 hy Islad exists. That's the chain. I'm learning from such and such who told me such and such. Malik has the chain. Other people have chains. Abu Hanifh has a chain. Now the issue is the chain in this stage is still subservient to the living tradition. So the isnad exists but we have more trust in the inherited living tradition of Islam. [2:07:28] So Malik, he lives in Medina. The prophet lived in Medina. 10,000 companions were buried in Medina. They taught their students who taught their students who taught Malik. He witnessed this. This is why Malik said that look the is there but Malik would often say this. This was his principle, the golden principle of the Medina school that this chain this oneonone will snatch the dean from in front of you. [2:08:01] it will snatch the dean from in front of you. He said we go with this mass transmission of the living tradition of Islam in Medina. Now that we call the sunnah so I im Malik had it's not like isnad didn't exist. It's in his m in fact he has the golden chain of isnad. Nobody can trump his chain called Malik from yet he brings it in the m and at times rejects it says yeah but this hadith don't know what it's on about. [2:08:36] So what happens is Malik has Medina. Abu Hanifh has Kufa. Okay not as glamorous as Medina [laughter] Medina. Medina but but he has a tradition. Abu Hanifh, he has Kufa, you know, he has uh his teachers, he has Ibrahim Al, he has all these people going back to Abdullahbn and other companions of Iraq. [2:09:06] Shroom has Iraq, you know, has um Sham, you have uh in Iraq, a lot of Sophiana Thori in Iraq. You've got these these traditions are going on like a living tradition. She is a young boy here. He doesn't count. He's just a little baby, little kid at this stage. He comes to Malik, studies a bit with him, then leaves. He's still very young. [2:09:32] as he matures and moves to Iraq. The problem is he originally affiliates with Malik and that heritage of Medina, which is cool, but when he moves from Iraq to Egypt, he realizes all these people in Egypt are all students of Malik and they've studied with him decades. I don't even count here. I just studied with Malik, you know, I was like a little kid when I was with Malik. [2:10:00] These people were old. I mean Wahab was 30 years with Imam Malikim 20 years Ashab 20 years Abd Hakam 20 years I mean you're not going to compete with a couple of years so he loses value now in Egypt he doesn't have the even though there were some companions but you can't have this living tradition because he wasn't from Egypt so this new generation that were emerging didn't have those same claims to tradition because they you see they couldn't say like with Malik he would say this is [2:10:36] Malik telling a hadith he would say it was narrated to me by somebody whose dean I trust full stop I trust him now it stops with because Malik has said it we have that loyalty we have that trust now One, he he couldn't really say well Malik Malik because here these people like you don't even know I imam Malik and two he couldn't claim any regional affiliation cuz he wasn't this region and people were becoming more and more cosmopolitan [2:11:14] they were moving around so they didn't have these regions to claim this kind of identity to this belonging see belonging is a fundamental aspect of human identity who do we belong to so what happens here is these people in that time it's around this time and with and remember Malik has now passed away um so we're going towards the kind of 180 hij 190 hij that kind of time they come up with this oh is what we're going to do is we're going to objectify the chain [2:11:53] sorry Malik when you say somebody whom I trust. Who does that mean? Who is this? You know, who who are these people? It's not good enough. We demand disclosure. We must know the name. You may be a great person, but we want to make this objective. The new sense of allegiance is to the chain. [2:12:22] Our loyalty now does not lie with Medina or with Kufa or with Bosra or with you know a certain Makkah. It now lies with the isnad. This was the great isnad project that was backed by people like voiced by people like and others. Now this takes off and then you have the huge second wave madith you know Bkari Muslim Abu Daw into the 200 HI and you see what they don't tell you though and this is where I'm going to speak about the [2:12:59] elephant in the room or the elephant in the chain which nobody's speaking about. [laughter] They're like Mal [laughter] you see when you go to the second wave muadin like this is remember going from like 230 hij onwards this kind of era uh you've got alibini abuim ## Cite Mufti Abu Layth Archive, segment TR4-gh0qEZ4/s/25. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/tr4-gh0qez4/s/25/ Not a fatwa: these answers were given to specific people at specific times. Ask a qualified scholar about your own situation.