# Could a senior scholar ever publicly change his fatwa on mortgages?

*Could a senior jurist publicly accept the mortgage argument? Scholars' dependence*

- URL: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/rtwywca2-pq/s/9/
- Date: 2021-01-29 · Kind: discussion · Transcript tier: machine · Recording: Shaykh Atabek Shukurov | Mortgages, Madhabs & Molvi-ism | MindTrap 48 | Mufti Abu Layth (39:38–46:49)
- Status: general teaching
- Watch from the start of the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtwyWCa2-pQ&t=2378s
- Recording page: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/rtwywca2-pq/

**Topics:** Views on contemporary scholars; Riba, mortgages and loans

**Summary (not a quotation; machine-made, unchecked):** Mufti Abu Layth doubts the jurist could ever publicly accept the guest's view; the guest says almost no scholar is fully independent of politics, audience or salary.

## Longer summary

Mufti Abu Layth asks whether the jurist, even if he agreed, could ever say so publicly. The guest recalls meeting him in his office in 1994, absorbed in his work, and says that besides his fatherly character he is not only an academic but also a politician who was part of a financial institution funded by HSBC, so wisdom requires him to consider all parties; his second letter, unlike the mild first one, was an explicit statement with proofs addressed to those who reacted. Mufti says he does not think he could, and recounts that when the jurist wanted to declare photographs permissible he first held a three-day closed conference of senior Indo-Pakistani scholars before concluding it was not clearly haram, so riba would be a minefield for him. The guest says over 99 percent of scholars are not fully academically independent, being bound by politics, their audience or salaries, which limits what they say.

## Sources and names cited

- Shaykh Atabek Shukurov (guest)
- Mufti Taqi Usmani [?]
- HSBC
- riba

## Transcript (machine tier, 39:38–46:49)

[39:12] because from the scholars you know um and um it was I think um from the first generation students of Muisab or maybe second generation but I don't think it was Muisab ordered them to do it. Okay. But the reaction was quite emotional and um abusive. They were using uh strange language actually. I think it's still available there.

[39:37] Okay. So oh heretic making that speaking of culture do you think though in all honesty somebody like Miyaki even if even if let's say he read Mui Taki read your thing and felt that you know this makes you know what he thinks that you know what he's actually speaking a bit of sense let's say or it makes sense do you think he could ever be in a position to publicly ever say that because don't you think people would go mad if he said something like that?

[40:12] Um you know obviously there are several points you know first of all um it was confirmed that uh two of his students they did place my letter on his table and the second thing um I met him in his office you know it was 1994 maybe okay [snorts] um um he um he he had about 10 15 books in front of him you understand and and he was typing something and the this there was this uh I think um uh this person from journalist maybe from do you know Jang you know the Jang yeah so I think so he was

[40:52] questioning taking like interview interviewing him okay so she was not even looking at him you know but he was typing something and you know so he was that busy okay so um uh but what I what I mean is that not the let's say let's hypothesize that he did read it And he did even agree. Let's say he even thought, you know what, what is saying makes sense, you know, but in all honesty, could somebody like Maki ever public publicly accept that?

[41:29] I don't think he could. But I'd like your thoughts because what what do you think? Could he accept that? Yeah. That you know what she is saying makes sense? Um well um as I told you previously he has that father character you know so that's why um and I don't know everyone has his own point of view okay and also we should remember that he's not only pure academic he's also politician and also he was part of this financial um institution okay funded by HSBC do you understand so he's not fully academic Do you understand?

[42:08] No, of course I understand. So for example, let's suppose that um um so so um wisdom necessitates for him to keep consideration of all of them. Of course. Of course. And also um and also in in my second letter and it was my letter was not to to the but to all of these people who reacted in a nonacceptable way.

[42:35] So in the obviously because uh in in the first one because I was talking to that senior scholar. Yeah. Okay. So I made it very mild. Okay. So I almost made it just question. Okay. Okay. Even even though it was like a report I was stating but I made it in in the form of question because of his age and because of his like a level etc. So because of all of that but the second one I made it very explicitly I made it statement with loads of proofs you know.

[43:07] Yeah. So so just hypothetically speaking if saw it so I don't think he he he said it's necessary to even I mean if he thought that it was right I don't think he said that there is necessity to confirm it because the proofs were sufficient to prove itself. Yeah. Yeah. But Allah knows because I the reason I say that is because I remember I was in Karach when Sheh Mu Takisab wanted to go public with saying photographs are halal.

[43:40] Yeah. Now this I can't remember now. It must have been like 2002 or 2003 or maybe it was two it was between I think it was 2003 or 2004. But he so I remember he wanted to do this but so the way he did it was he said I'm going to hold I'm going to host a conference just for the elite ama of the world.

[44:07] So by that what he meant was the sorry the elite Indoac ulama. So he got the big hot shots to all fly down. It was a three-day conference. Books and books on these tables nothing else. doors locked. Uh they had some international shakes flying from Malaysia and so on, but not many Arabs, but just more so um a few in I think Malaysia etc. stuff like that.

[44:33] And then 3 days of them reading the fatwa of Abidin and these people saying, "Oh yeah, but you know, it's still haram." And so on. And then at the end of this uh little drama, does is he says okay so the nata the result is after 3 days of listening to all your cases I think it's safe to say that this isn't clear that it's haram so this is how he kind of he had to do all of that to say and then he in following months or

[45:11] whatever a year later said publicly yeah you know the photos fine whatever uh nowadays everybody says it because photos have kind Everybody's got social media now, but at that time, but he had to do this just for photographs. Can you imagine like ribba I he it would be like uh walking into a minefield. He I don't think his sectarian affiliation would allow him because you have to remember he has a huge uh because most people are invested in their sect.

[45:43] Yeah, if if they're a bundi, they're invested in the if they're invested in. This is obviously something that places you uniquely that you're obviously not part of a a sect. Um unless unless you are and you haven't told us, hidden hidden hidden [laughter] you're recruiting us, you know. Um it's it's just really really good thing that right now we're discussing you know so because unfortunately unfortunately a lot of Muslims just lay man um whenever they find some scholar even in the past they think that he's

[46:22] purely academic independent which is not the case. Yeah. Over 99% of the times scholars are not fully academically independent. Okay. So they are scholars but also they are politicians they have their own audience and um maybe they could be dependent on the salary also of course understand. So all of that will put some limitation on their tongue also.

## Cite

Mufti Abu Layth Archive, segment rtwyWCa2-pQ/s/9. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/rtwywca2-pq/s/9/

Not a fatwa: these answers were given to specific people at specific times. Ask a qualified scholar about your own situation.