# Were the people who refused zakah after the Prophet's death apostates?

*Can taxes with welfare replace zakah? The wars against the zakah refusers as defiance, not apostasy*

- URL: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/housirokbvu/s/10/
- Date: 2020-04-19 · Kind: discussion · Transcript tier: machine · Recording: Shaykh Kashif Khan | Policing thought, Pornography & Pandora's box | MindTrap with Mufti #15 (47:29–55:16)
- Status: general teaching
- Watch from the start of the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOusirOkBVU&t=2849s
- Recording page: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/housirokbvu/

**Topics:** Succession and the first civil wars; Zakat and charity; Apostasy and blasphemy

**Summary (not a quotation; machine-made, unchecked):** The guest says taxes that fund welfare can count as zakah, and that the refusers fought by Abu Bakr were rebels against the state rather than apostates; Mufti Abu Layth says he is inclined to that view.

## Longer summary

Mufti Abu Layth asks whether taxes collected by a government that provides welfare could substitute for zakah. The guest says many Companions received stipends from the treasury, a concept of a welfare state, that a state cannot work without taxes, and that some of the salaf held that taxes so collected count as zakah. On Abu Bakr's fight against tribes that stopped paying zakah, he says the famous view is that they apostatised, but that al-Shafi'i and al-Khattabi held it was disobedience to the ruler rather than apostasy; Mufti says he is inclined that way too and mentions Fred Donner's work on the early Islamic conquests. The guest says the Prophet did not execute Musaylima for claiming prophethood, nor did Abu Bakr fight him for that claim, but for challenging authority and killing people, and that Umar's initial questioning of Abu Bakr shows it was not about apostasy; he also cites a report in al-Tirmidhi from Abdullah ibn Shaqiq that the Companions considered no omission kufr except abandoning the prayer. Mufti summarises that it was a political decision to establish the writ of the state.

## Sources and names cited

- Shaykh Kashif Khan (guest)
- Abu Bakr
- Umar ibn al-Khattab
- Musaylima
- al-Shafi'i
- al-Khattabi
- Fred Donner
- The Early Islamic Conquests (Fred Donner)
- the wars of the ridda
- report: the companions did not consider abandoning any deed kufr except the prayer (Abdullah ibn Shaqiq, al-Tirmidhi, number not stated)
- zakah
- bayt al-mal (the public treasury)

## Transcript (machine tier, 47:29–55:16)

[46:53] thing so this obviously triggers the redoubles and and from a worker of the allow animals perspective it was a it was the ultimate submission to Authority so yeah and around this time after them we see this okay that's him in life stop but what about gold and silver because gold and silver was not the main thing people are trading in their trading in livestock gold and silver this seems to be almost no single Sahih hadith on the nisab of like for example gold and and there were a majesty on a weaker these because what

[47:31] else are using a basic so I've always been curious that this whole thing of the cut I feel it was more a pragmatic decision that the scholars kind of said look well a taxing system is necessary for a state to function so yeah we've got a weak hadith it's ok you know she'll die you know we need to get this thing moving that's the main thing so what are your thoughts on this and if a government today is taking taxes could that and they providing a welfare system could that substitute has occurred

[48:08] see even if you look at in the in the slam of history a lot of companion cents are buying they used to get paid so from bed to month so from the government so it was a gives the concept of you know welfare state where you you pay the citizens and look after them yeah and of course for state to work they have to collect taxes otherwise the state cannot work so we find this this opinion amongst the Salaf as well that they can

[48:48] collect then they can collect taxes from the from the government for their for their benefit and at the same time the that would constitute as the path so and another thing I'd like to make I'd like to say that on the issue of Abubakr when the people stopping some of the tribes to stop things as a car you know the the people some the famous opinion is dead oh the of the RZA that they a pasta files and things happen but the other scholars like Imam Shafi and a mammal cassabi and other scholars say ho they

[49:27] held that opinion that it was not the actual apostasy it was actually the disobedience to the ruler yeah they did not it wasn't a kafir or Muslim who sorry held that Imam Shafi and al-kitabi and they were scholars as well and they say that it was not by actual apostasy it was the the disobedient to the ruler and to the state that that caused that you know that because I'm kind of inclined that way as well I'm kind of inclined that there was more

[50:02] a an issue of this because in saying that look wait a minute you can just come in to my property whenever you want I'm not gonna accept that because I'm you know and it's challenging his defiance isn't he when he claimed prophethood at the time of prophet prophet head authority easily executed because at that time yeah he was this has some interesting discussions on his wall by the way it's it's by Fred I spy

[50:41] Fred Donna the early Islamic conquests but sorry carry on sorry you're saying that the Prophet could have executed no sale America you know someone believed slam for and like that cabbie on issue someone so and the execution so Telemachus up he was not been executed at the time of Prophet for claiming nabuwa and even though the Prophet head

[51:21] authority was profit at that time was preparing to fight a war with the Roman the Roman Empire so and before his demise I think the six months or a year before his demise am aceldama claimed prophethood but the Prophet did not kill him even after at the time of Abu Bakr Abu Bakr did not kill him did not send an army to kill him just for this reason but most Alma bin azib challenged his authority he would kill people and he killed some companions and people for not testifying that he was the Prophet this was the reason they're telling the

[52:00] rich rid of the of the government and then I wasn't he contributing to the kind of insurgency because you see because when other tribes like let's say bunny honey fan of the people were I feel they were more so about disobedience that they were kind of refusing to pay zakat and refusing to do things others there were some tribes that did do apostasy some people naturally and there was this masala Malekith everything going on in your mama now I feel that you see he it's adding to the problem isn't it like it's

[52:37] everything is kind of going on you've got huge issues and it's it's compounding the crisis yeah it was more of a political decision then Abu Bakr told humor about this opinion of fighting and fighting against the people who have stopped paying zakat so Omar did not know that I wouldn't like he didn't know like why would why we should fight to be people oh do you do you feel all its that it's not about evidence it's just that he didn't see it that way because he would have thought yeah hmm why you know why are we at the end of

[53:16] the day there's still Muslim yeah but this indicates that it was not actually about apostasy yeah actually from the flower very amazing this is a work that has been going through his name is Shivani not still alive but it's on this cord sorry I think you may not be alive now but it's called her uber Rita it's in Arabic and English but it's very fascinating so I have what you're saying now but

[53:53] and there's another narration like the indistinct remedy that from abdullah bin chucky that the companions did not consider anything kufur other than leaving the prayer so that's in what sorry teen intimacy yeah companions did not see anything other than leaving the prayer so now this indicate that they didn't consider abandoning justicar at school so that is another evidence which people used for you know some groups we used before the

[54:32] targets Allah and those who abandon prayer so this evidence they don't pay from this perspective but this is the clear evidence that will be feeders cooker oh we're not paying the zakat sure just I've seen some comments mentioning about my about the voice I take it if there are any issues if people can't hear me clearly just do let me know right okay but sorry yeah carry on I'm full honest like no I am replacing the mic anyway for a much more just waiting for it to arrive yeah but yeah

[55:09] sorry sure he was saying now so right so this whole thing so you feel that this whole horrible Rita Mae was not me was actually more an issue of disobedience defiance as opposed to Kufa and it was more a political decision than more of a political decision to establish the writ of the government and of the authority so as it was the norm back then whoever challenge challenge is the authority and tried to coup against them

## Cite

Mufti Abu Layth Archive, segment hOusirOkBVU/s/10. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/housirokbvu/s/10/

Not a fatwa: these answers were given to specific people at specific times. Ask a qualified scholar about your own situation.