# Do Muslims accept doctrines as irrational as the Trinity, such as the uncreated Quran? *Wood's tough but badly articulated challenge: Islam's own incomprehensible doctrines* - URL: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/gyrfzzzca8g/s/5/ - Date: 2018-12-24 · Kind: lesson · Transcript tier: machine · Recording: On the David Wood and Muhammad Hijab Debate: Reflections & Review -Mufti Abu Layth (11:16–15:14) - Status: general teaching - Watch from the start of the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyRfZZZcA8g&t=676s - Recording page: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/gyrfzzzca8g/ **Topics:** Creed and the schools of theology; Reason and revelation; Christians and other faiths **Summary (not a quotation; machine-made, unchecked):** Wood's real challenge was that Muslims who mock the Trinity as irrational themselves accept doctrines such as the uncreated Quran and attributes that are 'neither God nor other than God'. Mufti Abu Layth says this was a genuinely tough point that Hijab did not fully answer, but Wood put it so badly that few noticed. ## Longer summary Mufti Abu Layth says Wood did present some tough questions but articulated them so poorly that he never landed a punch with them. As Mufti understands it, Wood's underlying point was that Hijab ridiculed the Trinity as incoherent and incomprehensible while Islam itself holds many incomprehensible truths that Muslims accept: if an appeal to reason shows that three cannot equal one, then the doctrine of the uncreated Quran is equally counter to reason, as is the doctrine of divine attributes that exist alongside God and are neither Him nor other than Him. Mufti allows that he may be crediting Wood with more than he meant, and says that because the points were put so clumsily most people did not grasp them and the whole argument fell by the wayside. He gives the example of intercession: Wood asked how the Quran could intercede for someone if the Quran is God, since God cannot intercede before God, and Hijab answered that one's recitation of the Quran is an action and the reward is the intercession, which Mufti considers answered. The difficult question about the uncreated Quran, he says, Hijab did not answer, but because the questions were presented weakly Hijab was able to dismantle them easily. Mufti says this leads back to a point he stresses on many occasions. ## Sources and names cited - Mohammed Hijab - David Wood - kalam Allah (the uncreated Quran) - sifat (the divine attributes) - shafa'ah (intercession) - the Trinity ## Transcript (machine tier, 11:16–15:14) [10:43] now this goes back and doctor would doesn't seem to leave this point alone he says no you know you suddenly is probably salon he brings it up time and time again so I think that was just I think it was quite dumb and pathetic on the part of dr. would agree to do that because you know we've somebody's answered the question you don't understand the Arabic language just take it for now and maybe you can research it further so that said I think dr. [11:16] would did present some some good kind of when I say good I mean some tough questions but I think luckily enough he articulated them so pathetically that it didn't actually he never managed to score a single punch with them I think that the gist of what he was trying to get at he had some very good questions and arguments that were kind of tough but because he was I don't know apparently he's been doing this for [11:54] decades so I don't know why he was so poor at kind of articulating it but he had certain questions that if I get if I've understood them correctly what he was trying to say was that you're mocking the Trinity or you're ridiculing the Trinity because it's incoherent it's incomprehensible this is the gist of I think what he was trying to say he was trying to say this is what I understood at a deeper level I could be I mean either on giving him too much intelligence here or but I think this is what he was actually trying to say is [12:32] that you yourself in Islam have many incomprehensible truths that you seem to be okay way so why are you struggling with this Marshall that's dr. would calling him to say yeah that's what I meant so what he was trying to say I think was that look if this is an appeal to reason if you're appealing to reason that three equals one is counter reason irrational and makes no sense then your debate on [13:11] the Quran being uncreated is to reason your debate on there being safe at of a law that exists alongside him and are not him is unreasonable and counter reason your debate like this he was there were several things that he points out to you but he articulates them so dumbly like in such a dumb way that luckily enough I don't think most people got what he was saying and therefore the whole argument just got pushed by the wayside but these genuinely were some tough questions that he presented in saying things like oh [13:48] you're saying for example he did say one which Muhammad hijab does respond to about the the shafa'ah intercession and he will how can the Koran intercede for you because if the Koran is God then how can God intercede before God that was his to which Muhammad hijab says well that's the actions as in your recitation of the Quran is as an action and the reward is interceding so I think but that one he kind of answers but so there was the [14:25] they were these points I do think the difficult one of the uncreated nosov the Quran Muhammad Egypt didn't answer but generally because they were presented so weakly Mohammed II job does manage to just kind of destroy him very easily because he's not presenting them very they're not so solid whereas if he was if because if that's what he was trying because that's what I understood from him that he was trying to say that look the Trinities counter reason but you guys yourselves accept so many things [15:02] that are counter reason hmm which would lead back to a point that I do stress on so many occasions that it is so important I feel especially in this day and age that Muslims we do believe in the Quran to be in line with the voice of reason otherwise these arguments don't actually stand you see because if somebody had articulated that a bit better it would have been very difficult to answer to because if you yourself are accepting you'd asked about miracles if you ## Cite Mufti Abu Layth Archive, segment gyRfZZZcA8g/s/5. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/gyrfzzzca8g/s/5/ Not a fatwa: these answers were given to specific people at specific times. Ask a qualified scholar about your own situation.