# Why orthodoxy took hold, and who wrote the checklist

- URL: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/f_4jnua3arq/s/6/
- Date: 2023-02-13 · Kind: lesson · Transcript tier: machine · Recording: Birth Of Islamic Orthodoxy And Institutionalisation | Mufti Abu Layth (30:09–34:08)
- Status: general teaching
- Watch from the start of the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_4jnUA3ARQ&t=1809s
- Recording page: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/f_4jnua3arq/

**Topics:** Orthodoxy and how Islam spread; Creed and the schools of theology

**Summary (not a quotation; machine-made, unchecked):** Orthodoxy offered clarity, but its checklist was written by men from their own school and position, not by Allah and his Messenger.

**Checked position (checked by two independent reviews, not by the channel):** Mufti Abu Layth says the creedal list was taught not by Allah and his Messenger but by men, who wrote from their own perspective.

**Evidence, his words at 31:27:** “hasn't been taught to you by Allah and his messenger it's been taught by men righteous men you know inshallah but the thing is they're still men” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_4jnUA3ARQ&t=1887s)

## Longer summary

Mufti Abu Layth says the appeal of a defined orthodoxy was clarity: rather than not knowing exactly what the Tabi'un believed, people could tell their children exactly what to believe. The problem, he says, is that the list was taught not by Allah and his Messenger but by righteous men writing from their own perspective, Ash'ari or Hanbali, or as clergy not wanting to be questioned, so that power became embedded and those who did not meet the list faced inquisition. He says that in his research much of this originates around the inquisition over the creation of the Quran, though he thinks earlier scholars must have thought of writing a creed, and that why they did not is a question worth a PhD, the reason perhaps ironically being a lack of power.

## Sources and names cited

- Tabi'un
- Ash'ari
- Hanbali
- the inquisition over the created Quran (mihna)

## Transcript (machine tier, 30:09–34:08)

[29:30] now let's say the ma I.E a cold let's say the malikis were right there we say well wudu can be substituted by tiamman due to hardships I.E occult [Laughter] power of the word see you embed a power structure the game is rigged you see because you you already Define the outcome so this is the issue with and you could do this genuinely you could do this you know

[30:08] you could be mockless but you are embedding power elements in the equation the moment you speak the moment you said something so when people become a the so the strength of having an Orthodoxy was people were saying well we've got structure now first we had this amorphosity you know we don't know what um what did they believe I don't know you know what did uh they what did the taba ain't exactly believe about certain things we just don't know they never spoke about it okay that's all nebulous and you know it's it's kind of

[30:48] free-floating let's have some structure so we can tell our children exactly and don't just say be part of the main body we could tell them exactly so this is the the plus side you know what why people went for it um that we can be clear we can have Clarity it's not just a free-floating it's a solid foundation now okay and and it is let's be honest you know it's much more clearer than trying to say well just believe but then the problem you see well okay what is it that they believe because remember this list

[31:27] hasn't been taught to you by Allah and his messenger it's been taught by men righteous men you know inshallah but the thing is they're still men and they still spoke with a perspective that unquestionably was nested in an agency of control from where they stood so if they were an ashari they were writing from an ashari perspective if they were humbly they were right from a humbly perspective if they were if they were the clergy and they don't want you to question certain things they put that

[32:07] in there because sure they may they may do it for a good reason because you know we just don't want people arguing with us it wastes our time we're doing it to save valuable Muslim time they may be very sincere but you see it becomes a power structure that's embedded now you see you you don't meet up to this list there's an Inquisition you see if you don't meet up Chuck them out

[32:35] so it's really fascinating just as an anthropological analysis of where all of this originates in our history we have to kind of sift through it and filter through it and think wow okay where is I wonder where this came from where did this originate so in my research a lot of it originates around that Inc the Inquisition of the man of the Quran the creation of the Quran although I don't think people before that hadn't thought of it it I think it's very naive to assume that these Scholars who were writing thousands and thousands of fatwa didn't

[33:13] think of let's have a Creed I mean that's like Common Sense 101 so why didn't they do it though see that's the question that's the million dollar question why did they not do it there could be a PhD on that they could be PhD on all of these things that I've said on the on the the birth of um you know Orthodoxy or whether it's going to be the definitions of Orthodoxy and how that's played out in Islam or whether it's going to be the first 200 years of Islam why there was no um um crystalline Orthodoxy and

[33:51] you know why why not because they must have had their reasons and I'm not saying and their reasons could have been ironically a lack of power to do it you see so wow wow fascinating

## Cite

Mufti Abu Layth Archive, segment F_4jnUA3ARQ/s/6. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/f_4jnua3arq/s/6/

Not a fatwa: these answers were given to specific people at specific times. Ask a qualified scholar about your own situation.