# The created Quran controversy and the birth of a creedal checklist

- URL: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/f_4jnua3arq/s/3/
- Date: 2023-02-13 · Kind: lesson · Transcript tier: machine · Recording: Birth Of Islamic Orthodoxy And Institutionalisation | Mufti Abu Layth (10:49–19:10)
- Status: general teaching
- Watch from the start of the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_4jnUA3ARQ&t=649s
- Recording page: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/f_4jnua3arq/

**Topics:** Creed and the schools of theology; Orthodoxy and how Islam spread

**Summary (not a quotation; machine-made, unchecked):** In his research, orthodoxy began with the created-Quran controversy, which gave rise to the language of divine attributes and to growing creedal checklists.

**Checked position (checked by two independent reviews, not by the channel):** Mufti Abu Layth says that in his research he feels orthodoxy originates with the question of the creation of the Quran.

**Evidence, his words at 10:49:** “in my research I feel this originates the birth of this is with the Hulk the creation of the Quran Masala” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_4jnUA3ARQ&t=649s)

## Longer summary

Mufti Abu Layth says that in his research orthodoxy was born with the question of the creation of the Quran, a new issue without precedent, and that reports of earlier imams such as Imam Malik discussing it are fabricated, like claiming Newton discussed quantum physics. Pressed on whether an uncreated Quran is God, scholars called it an attribute of God, which he says was the birth of the sifat discourse and of theology, turning the negative definition into an affirmative checklist. He says the first person he has found using the term Ahl al-Sunnah [?] came well into the third century and was originally from the Mu'tazila, and that before the century ended al-Tahawi's [?] creed had over a hundred points, failing any one of which put you out. He contrasts this with Imam Malik's tens of thousands of legal questions on everyday matters with no creed, says there is wisdom with the salaf, and describes the shift from an amorphous to a crystalline structure.

## Sources and names cited

- the dispute over the created Quran (mihna)
- kalam Allah (the speech of God)
- sifat (the divine attributes)
- Mu'tazila
- Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal
- al-Tahawi [?]
- al-Aqidah al-Tahawiyya [?]
- Imam Malik
- salaf

## Transcript (machine tier, 10:49–19:10)

[10:10] this is your and in this way Iman is in its natural fitrostate so and this is the lifetime of the salaf the salaf of the sahaba the turbo turbine that's it in their lifetime this is how Islam was so in Imam Malik's lifetime there was no such thing as to be a Sunni you need this apart from saying I believe in Allah in Revelation uh and The Messengers and life after death there was nothing like that that they didn't even say because it was so obvious everybody every Muslim accepted that so

[10:49] that's just an obvious so now what happens is after the 200s the decades into it and it's all it's disputable where does it originate in my research I feel this originates the birth of this is with the Hulk the creation of the Quran Masala that gives that is the the premise and the pretext which gives rise to the opportunity to now um

[11:28] structuralize and Forge Orthodoxy that we can now because Quran is the first Masala in which Scholars take a stance I mean which and by the way there was no precedence in this because it doesn't really make sense that they were president I know people tried to say those precedents it's it's really all fabricated that this was a new Masala nobody was discussing this Masala before this is why they struggled with it because because if they didn't struggle they would have just said look we're just following what everybody else believed what are you picking on us the issue was

[12:06] there was no precedent in this Masala so you know people try to say Imam Malik said this that all the Quran isn't Creations all these things aren't made up they didn't even discuss this this was not even a discussion it's like saying you know Isaac Newton was discussing quantum physics look he's got a quote saying quantity you know that they weren't or here uh you know Albert Einstein is discussing the iPhone and he's got you know the iPhone 13 he's got a comment on it you know that that's fabricated that didn't happen at that time they weren't discussing these things so with this debate

[12:45] Scholars took a stance now that's a different debate in itself and no point really getting into that debate but the point was that the first discussion began because when the scholar said that oh the Quran is not created that the counter question was well okay so is it God and you see they kind of found themselves between a rock and a hard place because well it's not well it is God like it's the speech of God saying okay what is the speech of God God then this gets confusing because you're

[13:25] like well hmm what do I say to that and so they said well right so they didn't know where to put it because if you say it's not God then it's created if you say it is God it's but it's not him then it's with him then you've got God and another piece of God God thing that is with God so you've got two gods so this is philosophically It's you're in a Range so so to get around this the olama they came up with oh well it's an attribute of God it's a sifa this is the birth of sifat by the way so nobody

[14:04] prior to that had ever used these words in this sense and I know some people try to justify it but really it's you know you know okay you can try to justify it but you know if you're going to call a spade a spade and just be honest you're gonna know that the birth of this issue is with the Quran that they didn't know where to put this now so they said well oh this is okay let's call it an attribute of God so theology starts to get formed it is the birth of Orthodoxy that we as the main body of Muslims are people who

[14:42] believe who affirm remember first it was we negate we don't curse the companions we don't do this we don't now it's we affirm we believe there's a checklist that the Quran is not created if you tick this you are now in you are with the in-group so it became a to-do like there's a criteria checklist so this is why you see so for example the greatest Sunni Scholars theologians like who's the father of Allison I know people say Imam Ahmed is the father of

[15:20] Allah that's a different discussion but really the uh from what I've my people if if they have uh any evidence to the contrary but what I've come across in my readings is that the first person to use the word Atlas was and this is way into the 200 history because originally from the matasila he's not even from Sunni Islam originally he is the nephew of who is a major figure in the Mata Zilla Legacy great thinker of matazilla's you know

[15:57] denomination sect now actually breaks away from him and he he then starts to amend certain beliefs because they have remember main Sunni mainstream Muslims don't have a checklist of what makes you the in-group they just know we are not the out group it starts in that Century then people start adding to this list then okay we are people who affirm that the Quran is not created take then people add another thing okay we are people who affirm this another thing

[16:37] before the end of the century you've got our uh Imam tahu in his you've got over 160 what is it 164 165 things on his checklist now that if now if you don't even believe in one of these you are out see first you go back a hundred years if you don't curse the Companions and you don't curse this you are in the the the the periphery defines the center that if you're not on the edge you're in the center

[17:16] and the center is fluid there's an amorphosity there is this kind of like it's a flow structure okay it's it's in free flow but this is how Iman was taught by the prophet salallahu it wasn't a checklist it was just taught and the living tradition was you just learn it and so considering look people like Imam Malik they writing at Lens I mean volumes 35 000 36 000 Mercedes they're arguing about things like if you use a nail in the wall of a neighbor what do you do what's the compensation for this if you

[17:54] build a wall around here if you tie your horse over there if you if you bring eight bags of Wheat and do this if you translate this into this why are they not mentioning oh what do you actually believe in to be a Muslim they don't do it and there is wisdom with the salaf there is wisdom now you see you fast forward 100 years and now you have a checklist now we can measure you against the list if you don't meet up to one of these things we will Chuck you out

[18:31] see now that also you see the question is if you go back a hundred years that had an amorphosity it was amorphous it was like didn't have a set structure it it's like like a floating cloud okay now you fast forward 100 years and people could argue well there's a crystallinity you know where you have a substance that's amorphous and then um you the the crystallinity of it the crystalline structure is it's so the carbons are so tightly packed together they're all structured so

## Cite

Mufti Abu Layth Archive, segment F_4jnUA3ARQ/s/3. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/f_4jnua3arq/s/3/

Not a fatwa: these answers were given to specific people at specific times. Ask a qualified scholar about your own situation.