# Did early Muslims really not count Ali as the fourth rightly guided caliph? *Did early Muslims not count Ali as the fourth caliph? Ranking companions and the door of Fatima* - URL: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/eo90sv4jvho/s/27/ - Date: 2021-01-05 · Kind: question · Transcript tier: machine · Recording: Monday Nights with Mufti #196 | Q&A Unscripted & Unrestricted! 😉 | Mufti Abu Layth (2:05:12–2:13:21) - Status: general teaching - Watch from the start of the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo90sV4JVHo&t=7512s - Recording page: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/eo90sv4jvho/ **Topics:** Sunni-Shia dialogue; The companions; Succession and the first civil wars **Question as asked:** The earlier Muslims didn't count Ali as the fourth rightly guided caliph? **Summary (not a quotation; machine-made, unchecked):** Ali is a hero of Islam and preferring him is a personal matter, but he rejects the story of Umar burning Fatima's door and urges moving on. **Checked position (checked by two independent reviews, not by the channel):** Mufti Abu Layth says that if somebody considers Ali the best of all the companions, to him that is not a problematic statement but a personal preference. **Evidence, his words at 2:08:10:** “So, if somebody did feel to them saying Ali was number one from all the companions, I don't to me there's that's not a problematic statement.” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo90sV4JVHo&t=7690s) ## Longer summary After agreeing to bring in Dan Gibson, whose work he likes, Mufti Abu Layth takes a question that early Muslims did not count Ali as the fourth rightly guided caliph. He says some, such as Imam Malik in one narration, problematised it, but Muslims generally accept Ali as one of the most amazing companions and a hero of Islam, though not the near-superhuman some Shia make him. He says ranking companions does not matter to him: considering Ali the best is a personal preference, the order in the creed books is written by people, and the problem is insulting religious symbols. He rejects the story that Umar tried to burn Fatima's door: Fatima's sermons and main Shia books do not mention it, it would make Ali look weak, Banu Hashim were present, and Ali as ruler never raised it or Fadak. He accepts Ali may have been sidelined in the rush of events, urges moving on, and recommends the Al-Mahdi Institute and Shaykh Arif [?] to Shia who want to learn from Shia sources. ## Sources and names cited - Dan Gibson - Ali ibn Abi Talib - Imam Malik - al-Khulafa al-Rashidun (the rightly guided caliphs) - Shia - Abu Bakr - Umar ibn al-Khattab - Uthman ibn Affan - Fatima - Banu Hashim - Fadak - Al-Mahdi Institute - Shaykh Arif [?] ## Transcript (machine tier, 2:05:12–2:13:21) [2:04:47] should be a philosopher but then the problem is that the common people are not philosophers so they can't resonate with him and for so what happens is the ruler is often from the mob because this is how uh Plato writes about it. But yeah, I hope that answers that question. [2:05:12] Somebody asked uh please bring in Dan Gibson. Sure, we can bring in Dan Gibson. I did like a lot of his work. I did I do have a video answering the the Mecca question. I do feel in many ways that I've um provided a somewhat of a sufficient answer even if I don't say so myself which I do. [2:05:47] The earlier Muslims didn't count Ali as the forthrightly guided. There's a lot of questions about this today, isn't there? What's going on people? Some people did problematize it. But look, not problematize it. Sorry. Like they like Imam Malik in one of the narrations says that I don't say yeah look Muslims generally do accept Ali was obviously you know up there. [2:06:16] He is one of the most amazing companions that there's no question about these things. Okay. So, but the the question is how much do you praise someone? You know, the way the Shia do it to excess, you know, like to them said Nali is something he's like a superman, you know, he's not even uh human almost. [2:06:40] And that's not true. I mean, he wasn't, you know, like the way they make him out, but he was a great unquestionably a a super Islamically a hero of Islam. He was a hero of Islam, but he wasn't a like a demigod or he wasn't like a prophet or something like that. But yeah, cool. [2:07:06] Let's Asan. Whoa. Super chat there. Muya, thank you for Sauron. Osman says, "Thank you for making my faith stronger. My dua from Allah is that he blesses you and your family." Shukran, much love to you. Dearly appreciated. Uh, right. So, and look, sometimes some people consider certain companions better than others. [2:07:36] I've said in the past, look, to me, these things don't matter. If somebody you know wants to consider s Ali better fine you know there's nothing wrong like I don't personally have a problem with these things if somebody wants to consider sar better the problem is when you start you know taking digs and and criticizing not just critiquing criticizing and being rude and that's a problem because these are religious symbols of Islam otherwise Look, who cares? [2:08:10] Okay, in the books of Alisnah, they do write, "Oh, it's Abu Bakr first, then it's Omar, then it's Osman, then it's Ali." And but you know, in all honesty, these are just books written by people. So, if somebody did feel to them saying Ali was number one from all the companions, I don't to me there's that's not a problematic statement. [2:08:36] To me that's just a personal preference to them. They are inspired by si great I mean that's what's wrong with that. If the problem is when it comes into this Sunni Shia kind of oh you know that person is bad then and this person did this and this person did this and you know Omar tried to burn the door of Ali and you know this is so stupid because you know the dumb thing is that you know they say Omarilan tried to burn the door of Fatima Rodilan I mean can you even imagine this would go on like let's just be real firstly [2:09:16] Right. This is firstly the Shia some of the Shia who make these claims and not all the Shia make these claims but some that do they even acknowledge that in the sermons of Fatima she never makes mention of this she never mentions this incident. Many of the Shia books their main usul books that they rely on don't even mention this incident of the burning of the door. [2:09:42] Um the other thing is this then incredibly um shows Ali in a disfavorable light that Ali is meant to be this you know this lion of a man and he can't even defend his own door from being burnt down you know like what it makes him like such a weak character and and let's not forget in his house were the hashim in you know Bani Hashim were there uh I believe they would they claim Zuber was there and and you know there's there's no way that [2:10:20] these people would just sit there and there's no way that the other companions would do something I mean just come on man just just be really like just use your own common sense would somebody do something like this so just spreading you know ringing up sentiments by trying to say oh this is what they did and this is I mean I accept other arg arguments. I do accept that, you know, maybe that Sa Ali was not uh was sidelined. [2:10:49] I don't think he was sidelined intentionally, but I think in the, you know, in the huff and puff of things that he wasn't he he was sidelined in that in the whole uh rush hour of events. They didn't really and there was this fear that they might be, you know, before this gets out of hand, let's get a leader. that does happen and I I and I accept that kind of stuff. But you know to to overdo it that oh they miscarry made Fatima miscarry a baby and made this happen and made that happen. [2:11:22] I mean where is all of this and why does Ali when he becomes a ruler never mention this and even you know they go on about oh my god the land of Fukak and the land of Fukak but yet when Ali became a ruler never ever mentions it not even once does he try to rectify it. Um and they say, "Oh, because he had bigger things to worry about." Well, in that case, if there's bigger things, then you need to stop going on about this because by admission, this is not that much of a big thing. [2:11:50] You know, if like, so I say, look, whatever's happened has happened. Let's move forward, right? Enough of these disputes and arguments and we can never resolve these issues. Yeah. So even Shia scholars do oppose that and and I believe that the the scholars of you know from the Shia I feel that the the Mai institute is an amazing uh voice that speaks on behalf of the Shia very you know they speak the [2:12:26] voice of reason speak uh very calmly and they have problematized this and and you know if somebody is a Shia and they want to learn from other Shia they don't want to become Sunni let's say I would advise guys get in touch with the Al Mahadi Institute. There is Sheikh Arif. Um there are other uh imams there as well. [2:12:49] There's uh Dr. Wah I mean the these people I would say reach out to these people honestly incredible people. There are Shia, but they are uh they've never I've never from what I've known of them, I've never seen them ever speaking about splitting up the um only heard them speak about having unity and love and respect and so great people. I would definitely advocate their institute for Shia that want to learn only from Shia sources, then these are your people. [2:13:20] Cool. Let's uh move on. All right. What is going on? I just had a question. Was Christianity a true religion up until the exact point when Muhammad received his first revelation from God or was it corrupted before then? See, it's not about Christianity being corrupted. ## Cite Mufti Abu Layth Archive, segment eo90sV4JVHo/s/27. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/eo90sv4jvho/s/27/ Not a fatwa: these answers were given to specific people at specific times. Ask a qualified scholar about your own situation.