# Why did God stop Abraha's army but let the Qaramita steal the Black Stone?

*How could the Qaramita steal the Black Stone? Its likely pagan origin and no sanctity*

- URL: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/-opjez12nq8/s/1/
- Date: 2019-07-08 · Kind: question · Transcript tier: machine · Recording: Between Authenticity & Paganism: The Black Stone and Safa & Marwa -Mufti Abu Layth (0:00–15:38)
- Status: general teaching
- Watch from the start of the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oPJEZ12NQ8&t=0s
- Recording page: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/-opjez12nq8/

**Topics:** Pre-Islamic Arabia; Hajj and umrah

**Question as asked:** How was a breakaway Shia sect able to steal the Black Stone in the Kaaba and take control of the Haram, when Allah had earlier destroyed the approaching army with birds dropping pellets?

**Summary (not a quotation; machine-made, unchecked):** The Black Stone has no sanctity of its own: it was most likely a remnant of pre-Islamic stone worship that Islam kept as a ritual of submission to God, so its theft by the Qaramita, though wrong, was no great matter. Umar himself said it was only a stone that can neither harm nor benefit.

**Checked position (checked by two independent reviews, not by the channel):** Mufti Abu Layth says the Black Stone has no sanctity in itself and was most likely a remnant of pre-Islamic pagan worship, kept by Muslims and kissed by the Prophet only as a ritual of submission to God, so its theft by the Qaramita, though not a good thing, was no great matter.

**Evidence, his words at 2:36:** “there is no true sanctity to the black stone the only thing was that the black stone happened to be in the Kaaba” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oPJEZ12NQ8&t=156s)

## Longer summary

Mufti Abu Layth reads a question asking how a breakaway Shia sect could steal the Black Stone and take control of the Haram when Allah had earlier destroyed the army of the people of the elephant, and recites the opening of Surah al-Fil about Abraha. He says it is a fact that the Qaramita, a sub-sect of the Shia, attacked Makkah, took the Black Stone and kept it for over two decades, and that it came back broken, so what is seen today are small pieces set in a larger black setting. He says the Black Stone has no true sanctity: it happened to be in the Kaaba, the qiblah attributed to Ibrahim, and was most likely a remnant of pre-Islamic pagan worship, since the Nabataeans of Petra worshipped a great black stone as their main god (he names Dushara [?], Hubal [?] and Baalshamin [?] as candidates), other Arabs copied them, about twenty ka'bas existed, and the cube at Ta'if was dedicated to al-Lat. He compares Safa and Marwa, which he says were associated with Isaf and Na'ila [?], two lovers turned to stone, so that many of the Ansar refused to perform the running until the verse 2:158 declared Safa and Marwa symbols of remembering Allah, and he likens objections to Halloween and Christmas on grounds of their origins. He says the stone may be a meteorite or volcanic remnant and wishes the Saudi authorities allowed tests, cites Umar's words that it is only a stone that can neither harm nor benefit and that he kissed it because he saw the Prophet do so, and says the Prophet kept the ritual as an act of submission, not because the stone is holy. He describes people fighting each other to reach the stone, says stories such as a heavenly Kaaba directly above fall apart when the evidence is examined, and urges people to seek the truth.

## Sources and names cited

- Quran 105:1 (have you not seen how your Lord dealt with the people of the elephant): https://quran.com/105/1
- Abraha
- the Qaramita (Carmathians)
- Shia
- al-Hajar al-Aswad (the Black Stone)
- Ka'bah
- qiblah
- Ibrahim (Abraham)
- the Nabataeans
- Dushara [?]
- Hubal [?]
- Baalshamin [?]
- al-Lat
- Isaf and Na'ila [?]
- the Ansar
- Quran 2:158 (Safa and Marwa are among the symbols of Allah): https://quran.com/2/158
- Umar ibn al-Khattab
- report: i know that you are a stone you cannot cause me any harm or benefit but i saw the prophet kiss you (unresolved; Umar and the Black Stone)
- tawaf

## Transcript (machine tier, 0:00–15:38)

[0:00] how comes a breakaway Shia sect was able to steal the black stone in the cab and take control of the harem area when Allah previously destroyed the approaching army of birds dropping pellets widen alhasan pellets on those that mutilated the the black stone akbar has asked a very interesting question that's an amazing question if Silas said musti's alleging VAR g Mary John Wright may Allah bless you I mean I mean right so this is a very interesting question

[0:39] people I want you to pay attention to this surah tor field Island Tarek a for Farah Boca they also have a field do you not see how you load it with the people of the elephant which was Abraha the Abyssinian would come over now this thing why is it that that happened thee and it didn't happen with the car Amita so the car Amita were sect a sub sect within the Shia so you have the Shia and I'm within them you've got a subject of the I believe

[1:18] non-existent today but the parameter of the Shia now there was a time when they attacked when they attacked Makkah a micked they stole the black stone he goes the black stone it's going off and they run away with it and they kept it for over two decades Billy is in the house are I doing it really doing it so the Haram meter kept the black stone

[1:56] for over two decades and eventually some of the Muslims did manage to capture it but it was broken and smashed and and then they just brought back retrieved pieces of this black stone even today the black stone is just small pieces it's not actually a you know the actual black store so the black thing that you have is not actually the black stone if you look into it you're going to see small kind of just pieces of shiny black stone against a greater black setting the black setting is not the black stone it's only those pieces in the so and you

[2:36] can google it right now that is so first of all about the kilometer stealing the black stone that is a fact that they did steal the black stone and they kept it for a few decades a quick point on what is the black stone the black stone people is nothing sacred okay we need to understand that okay I think it's important there is no true sanctity to the black stone the only thing was that the black stone happened to be in the Kaaba and the Kaaba

[3:12] happened to be the place we which which is the Qibla for the Muslims which has then been made as the Qibla for Muslims and is attributed to Ibrahim Ali Salaam so what we do know is that these practices these rituals were affirmed as in acknowledged by Islam and they for kept alive and validated there is no this black stone thing most likely okay so brace yourselves people brace yourselves this is no need to get

[3:50] scared by the way when I say right this is a brace brace so the black stone most likely was part of a pagan god but it most likely was associated by association part of a pagan god culture in pre-islamic times so we know that in petra the main god which some argue is hooba

[4:28] or what they called they also refer to Mizzou sharra or douche era now and some have argued he's the same as bulge Amin but the point is that the main god that they had was a big black stone okay now this black stone that they had as the main God to represent the main God was then also replicated later on in the because remember Petra is probably with the all Arabs kind of centuries before because this is hundreds of years before Islam

[5:08] so the or may be talking I don't know maybe 600 years before Islam at this point these are the people that really set up that that kind of formed that legacy that other Arabs then start to copy okay they are like from the Arab their arabesque they they're not from they claim their lineage to be from a one of the the children of a smile but not the one the Arabs come through so they are like they used to speak Aramaic but they used to write in a day script is today the Arabic script that's the way they kind

[5:45] of get it from the Arabs got it from so Petra we know that they were like the kind of capital that other Arabs later took from now we know that in the centuries that followed Petra obviously lost its importance it was not in the time of the Prophet Petra was not an important place at all but other places were like Hera which had taken a lot from Petra and were the offspring of the Arabs that later rule Petra that the new queen and then you have the last mean but I don't want to get distracted here but the point is many places took a black stone figure as they got many of

[6:22] them including part if close to Mecca had a big cube a black cube black cube which they addressed as the god lat and they would close put a cloth over Latin it was also a cube kind of object in some ways a bit similar to I suppose presumably maybe the Kaaba but probably a bit smaller now this kind of figured it and they were probably about 20 different cupboards that emerged so the Kaaba in Mecca was not the only Kaaba

[6:57] okay but the cabin Makkah is by our understanding we claim that that legacy belonged to ibrahim ali salaam the other cat but they would they were just dedicated to the gods they weren't dedicate so the one in that if was dedicated to lat and these other ones were dedicated to other gods they weren't dedicated just to like allah in that sense okay whereas this the Kaaba is dedicated to Allah the one in Mecca that we have today so the black stone most likely that many of these places had a black

[7:36] stone which was usually one of the gods so it's very likely that the black stone was probably a remnant of that that over time lost its importance so like what happened is maybe the Quraish incorporated into the corpus of the Kaaba the body of the Kaaba and then over time it was just seen as a wholly special stone and it lost that importance as the God just as Safa and Marwah were two gods they were you had they weren't it was south and Natalja

[8:15] there were two lovers that came and apparently you know committed to God that had sex in front of the camera and they weren't meant to and therefore they were turned to stone and therefore people did the the running between them as a form of a kind of expression of their love I guess and also a remembrance that you're not meant to do certain things in front of the Kaaba but over time that meaning kind of got lost and then people just stuck with the general ritual and so what happens is that with

[8:54] this is why many of the ants are from Modena when they came to Makkah they refused to do the Safa and Marwah so ought to be and all these people bring it because they said that this was a practice the Quraish invented and the arabs invented from JA here is to do with na Allah and Issa the goddesses and the God and the goddess it's nothing to do with Islam so an ibrahim ali salaam and so they refused then this was many of the Sahaba they said that we won't do the Safa Marwah thing this is not you know these from pagan practices but then there's the verse in the Quran saying

[9:34] that look what that meaning has gone now and this is why when I say to people about things like Halloween and Christmas and people get off they flare up like oh my god oh my god Halloween but it's original practice hundreds of years ago was to do with witches and you say well you know but then suffer mother what most likely was to do with gods and goddesses pagan gods it wasn't like but the point is that this you see II had lost its practice and then hence this verse of the Quran that in a foul Marwat up in sha allah that now it is deemed a remembrance of allah fermented agua be a

[10:13] man so who today understands them to be symbolic of ace and a worship to god fermented oh wow lease this is not from you know the term authority and this is not from torah that don't understand this to me involuntary speaker Safa Marwah is not more voluntary in neither Imran or Hajj so it's Lisa manta tawa Bhima comment enough Allah be hema la Hannah Montana Fela Bhima ya any man has a barometer attend Lila that whosoever considers them to be a worship for Allah

[10:52] for in a logic Iran Ali then indeed Allah is grateful for them you know towards them for the worship because so in a similar way the black stone was a most likely was part of a pagan God practice but in the generations maybe just before the Prophet and so on and lost that importance but it was still kept as a like a holy thing they don't know why it would like obviously the pagans probably knew why it was holy but they generally was just seen revered so Muslims kept that practice that oh

[11:31] you know what we'll just leave it there in the Kaaba and they and they'll use it as a point so the Prophet would do the roughly then begin you know so when you're doing the Thoth it's a point to symbolize something that's all it has nothing holy or special it's not a stone from God it may have been a meteorite most of the black stones by the way that the Arabs used to use for their gods were black because they were volcanic kind of remnants that's why so the black stone may also be a volcanic remnant or it may be a meteorite I think it's definitely one of those to the Saudis

[12:09] unfortunately won't let it it won't let people conduct any tests on it it's a shame but I wish they did so we could know what it was so the fact that the car Amita took it away and broke it and what if I in all honesty it's no big deal I mean it's not a nice thing don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's a nice but it's not something like oh my god in fact say Nomar said that he said that I know that you're just a Hodja use the stone Latin family table or you know you cannot cause me any harm you cannot cause me any benefit this was the statement of saying that Omar wrote

[12:49] the Elan and he said that yes but I saw the profit out of kind of like he I saw him kiss you so I'm just going to do that now remember the Prophet never taught them that the black stone was holy but out of the prophets general upbringing and the prophets general practice that since the stone just now symbolized that the house the Ka'bah symbolized Matala and this was a part of it and that that practice the profit kisti just as a ritual it was not something done as this is a holy stone

[13:28] it was not a holy and it is not a holy stone is this just a stone there is nothing special about it apart from that that it's got this history associated with it Muslims today obviously crazy over they beat the hell out of each other to get to the black stone some point I guess in time was perhaps a pagan was perhaps a pagan god but it's amazing huh that

[14:07] people they beat themselves and they do all this to get to it but there's no harming in these things because today what does it symbolize it symbolizes a ritual to God and we as Muslims we submit with that ritual and that's fine that's what it is that's all it is a submission it's not really you know you gotta be you know this is where these are the stories all fall apart o know that this is what it was and there was a you know when you go from the Kaaba up there's going to be the other Kaaba there's gonna be this heaven right above a there's gonna be all these Oh stories none of these things are real I

[14:46] mean any the problem with all this kind of belief is when you look into the evidence it's gonna all fall apart and and then if you believe so firmly in these little folktales your mind might collapse it might it might not I mean because once you realize well actually this is just all stories so this is why I feel it's better to go with the truth

[15:13] seek the truth people and the truth shall set you free Allah so I hope that answer somebody said the story about Roger Ali asylum and a smile going between the seven and seven times between what is it's often Marwa in all honesty i think that's made up it's very difficult come on like we have to be reasonable here that how what it seems is that later on when Islam spread to the other arab

## Cite

Mufti Abu Layth Archive, segment -oPJEZ12NQ8/s/1. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/-opjez12nq8/s/1/

Not a fatwa: these answers were given to specific people at specific times. Ask a qualified scholar about your own situation.