# Was pre-Islamic Makkah really a significant city?

*Revisionist historians on Makkah: Patricia Crone, Michael Cook and whether Makkah was a significant city*

- URL: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/-jytkj9z1cw/s/1/
- Date: 2019-12-17 · Kind: lesson · Transcript tier: machine · Recording: A Reply to Dan Gibson: "Why The Early Qiblas Faced Petra?" | Mufti Abu Layth (0:01–2:36)
- Status: general teaching
- Watch from the start of the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JYtKJ9z1cw&t=1s
- Recording page: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/-jytkj9z1cw/

**Topics:** Pre-Islamic Arabia; Atheists and polemicists

**Summary (not a quotation; machine-made, unchecked):** Mufti Abu Layth thinks the revisionists have a point: Makkah was not a significant city or even a popular town, and its later image was an innocent reconstruction by Muslims rather than propaganda. He notes that Crone and Cook placed Makkah further north without settling on Petra.

**Checked position (checked by two independent reviews, not by the channel):** Mufti Abu Layth says the revisionist historians have a point that pre-Islamic Makkah was not a significant city or even a popular town, and that its later image was an innocent reconstruction by later Muslims rather than propaganda.

**Evidence, his words at 0:38:** “to be fair I think they've got a point that I don't think Mecca was a significant City at all or even a popular town I think this is something that is recreated” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JYtKJ9z1cw&t=38s)

## Longer summary

The clip opens mid-sentence, after a remark about the ancestors of the Prophet. Mufti Abu Layth says he follows Dan Gibson quite closely and looks into what he says rather than dismissing it because it goes against his own view. He summarises the revisionist position: most of them accept that the Prophet existed, but Patricia Crone and others hold that Makkah could not have been as significant as later Muslims claimed. He says that, to be fair, he thinks they have a point: he does not think Makkah was a significant city or even a popular town, and he sees its later image as something later Muslims recreated innocently, assuming it to be the reality, not as propaganda. He adds that Crone, Michael Cook [?] and others argued Makkah may not have been where it is but further north, in the kingdoms of Sham, and that some then suggested Petra; from what he has read, Crone did not conclude that, but was unconvinced that Makkah was where it is now and open to suggestions. He says he is still going through her works.

## Sources and names cited

- Dan Gibson
- Patricia Crone
- Michael Cook [?]

## Transcript (machine tier, 0:01–2:36)

[0:01] he'll age dad Ali Salaam Coulomb in on all the grant and grandparents of the Prophet okay here's an interesting point oh I'll mention a bit about dan gibson I do follow dan gibson quite closely I mean I'm not up to date on everything that Dan Gibson has said but I follow him quite closely to be fair I look into you know what he said and I'm not just somebody that disregards something just because it goes against and what I'm

[0:38] saying a lot of Islam realists have argued that MUC Muslims they feel that Islam did exist like the Prophet did exist most of them do except that like Patricia Crone and other people they feel that Makkah was not could not have been as significant as Muslims claim later Muslims claim and to be fair I think they've got a point that I don't think Mecca was a significant City at all or even a popular town I think this is something that is recreated

[1:17] innocently by later Muslims not because they were trying to do propaganda I think this is what they thought assumed would have been the reality but now research seems to show that Makkah was not really like that the other thing is that a lot of these people felt that Makkah may have not been where Makkah is so Patricia Crone and other people I think Michael Cooke and some others they argued that Makkah may have been more in the northern kingdoms so in the kingdom of sham

[1:52] now some people then suggested Petra now although from what I've read of Patricia Crone I don't think she conclusively said that that was the case but I believe that she felt she wasn't convinced with it being Mecca as in situated at Makkah so she felt it was somewhere she wasn't quite sure we but she was open to kind of suggestions that's what I've heard from some of her and I've got I'm still going through a few of her kind of works and articles and stuff now right so Dan Gibson however he has Dan

[2:32] Gibson has done a lot of research which I um in some ways grateful to because you know we have two people we have to honor in even if it comes out with things that we don't like but at the end of the day this comes back to the point which I've been saying that what we lack in our tradition is a critical review so coming back to Dan Gibson's point he's gone around and he's got a book gibbler's in early Islam or early killers in Islam now he he measures I think is it a

## Cite

Mufti Abu Layth Archive, segment -JYtKJ9z1cw/s/1. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/-jytkj9z1cw/s/1/

Not a fatwa: these answers were given to specific people at specific times. Ask a qualified scholar about your own situation.