# Did Imam Ahmad really refuse to say the Quran is created?

*Imam Ahmad, the Hanbalis and the Mihna; the created Quran in Ash'ari texts*

- URL: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/--pntsar8ck/s/18/
- Date: 2021-02-16 · Kind: lesson · Transcript tier: machine · Recording: Monday Nights with Mufti #202| Q&A Unscripted & Unrestricted! 😉 | Mufti Abu Layth (1:02:31–1:10:43)
- Status: general teaching
- Watch from the start of the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--PntsaR8ck&t=3751s
- Recording page: https://muftiabulayth.org/r/--pntsar8ck/

**Topics:** Scholars and imams of the past; Creed and the schools of theology; God and the divine attributes

**Summary (not a quotation; machine-made, unchecked):** Mufti Abu Layth says later Hanbalis made Imam Ahmad a hero of the Mihna, though he likely said the Quran was created to save himself; Ash'ari books also call the worded Quran created.

**Checked position (checked by two independent reviews, not by the channel):** Mufti Abu Layth says that, to be honest, the account that Imam Ahmad said the Quran was created to please the caliph and was let off is not hard to believe, since saying so to save one's life would not be haram.

**Evidence, his words at 1:07:40:** “he said yes the quran is created to please the caliph and then got let off and to be honest with you this is not hard to believe because it wouldn't be haram to do that” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--PntsaR8ck&t=4060s)

## Longer summary

Mufti Abu Layth says the Salafis' whole discourse goes back to Imam Ahmad, and that the anthropomorphists of the ummah, who believed God had body parts, were the Hanbalis, who claimed this was Imam Ahmad's belief; he says it is not impossible to him that Ahmad believed it, though he may not have. He asks what made Ahmad 'the father of the Sunnah' rather than Imam Malik, and says in the Mihna under al-Ma'mun Ahmad was a poor man, not the powerful figure he later became, who got off lightly compared with others who were killed, and then stopped teaching publicly. He reports the Mu'tazili account, found in al-Jahiz [?] and others, that Ahmad said the Quran was created to please the caliph and was released, says this is not hard to believe since saying so to save one's life would not be haram, and that later Hanbalis turned him into a glorified hero. Returning to the Ash'aris, he recounts that a scholar who contacted him last year insisted they never say the Quran is created until shown the passage that the worded speech of God is muhdath, and he explains that in their books the original message with God was unworded and became created words on entering this realm.

## Sources and names cited

- Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal
- Hanbalis
- tajsim (anthropomorphism)
- Salafi
- Imam Malik
- Imam Abu Hanifa
- the Mihna
- al-Ma'mun
- al-Jahiz [?]
- Mu'tazila
- Ash'ari
- muhdath (generated)

## Transcript (machine tier, 1:02:31–1:10:43)

[1:01:52] like even hanafi's who historically never rated bukhari sahil bukhari to be there because most of the effect is opposed to sahil bukhari and imam bukhari used to diss imam abu hanifa ridiculously so but later hanafi's because the the kind of discourse got so drowned in this discussion they even without realizing it bought into it so similarly because the selfie thing is so widespread the because salafis only talk so you'll notice that even sunnis now

[1:02:31] start using their rhetoric so sunnis will say you know this thing like for example because the salafis they their whole thing is essentially about imam ahmad ibn this is what is because imam ahmad this is where it's alleged that it begins you know this anthropomorphism because really the anthropomorphists of this ummah were the humbles okay they were people that believed god had body parts and he was this big body in the sky and this kind of morphed body and they claimed that this is what imam ahmed believed

[1:03:09] and to be honest they may be true it may be true he may have actually believed it i think later sunnis were just embarrassed so they they kind of refused to acknowledge that maybe imam ahmed believed it but they say the humblings definitely did so okay maybe he didn't believe it i don't know but it to me it's not impossible that he believed it but fair enough he may not have but the humblys are the ones that came up with this you know this whole thing about god and body parts and stuff like that so today people will say oh you know imam ahmad was the father of allah sunnah

[1:03:48] how was imam ahmed the father of sunnah i don't know how he was the father of allah what made him the father of allah genuine question what made him the father this is just something that humbly's used to say but today it became you see the propaganda is so widespread that everybody says it and they don't know why they say it oh imam ahmad was the father of sunnah you say well why he said why isn't imam malik the father why is imam ahmed say yeah but he got beaten up for it

[1:04:28] he said was so i mean what you know like in all honesty he did get beat up for the quran masala is it created or not created and he took a stance saying it's not created and he got beat up but according to the humbles he actually did say it was created and they let him off i mean sorry sorry according to the mata so jahid and these people write that imam ahmed actually accepted and that's why he wasn't killed he was spared not because he was some saint you know this is just propaganda that later humbly said oh he was some kind of saint so they let him off like hell would they care about him being some saint

[1:05:07] i mean you need to read what those what they were doing i mean they didn't give a damn about him he wasn't this huge person that he later on became you see so in his day and age he was taken and beaten they they they didn't care about who he was he wasn't norma he was a very poor person imam ahmad he wasn't like imam abu hanifa and imam malik who were incredibly wealthy and connected they they had like huge networks of power in their day and age imam ahmad and imam were incredibly poor they were like from you know barely meet the subsistence level they you know like they were

[1:05:45] struggling to to meet just to rise above the poverty line these people never had no powerful networks neither were they feared nor were they i'm not trying to diss them i mean they you know they did a great service to in in striving for islam and learning about islam but they weren't these figures that they posthumously became so imam ahmad in his day and age did take a stance against the caliph and yes so did many people he wasn't the only person other people were actually killed he wasn't killed and his inquisition was actually very

[1:06:24] small compared to what happened to the other people because his inquisition takes place during matt moon's time who only lives for four months during the inquisition the inquisition goes on for 15 years so imam ahmed gets off very lightly and the question was why did he get off so this is one of the questions a lot of people ask that why did he get off and he says and then he was under he was not allowed to teach publicly and he didn't teach you know so this he wasn't this kind of great defiance of authority because when they said you better not teach he didn't teach he just sat at home for the rest of his life and obviously

[1:07:03] didn't teach publicly so he wasn't this great defiant character but he did take a stance on that and then he was let off within weeks he was let off the hook and the question was why was he off the hook when other people were clearly not let off the hook and they were great scholars and some of them were killed and the martezilla say because he just said after a couple of weeks yeah i say whatever you say and they let him go and then when he was released he just when people asked him did you say he just said no but

[1:07:40] according to the mata he did say it he said yes the quran is created to please the caliph and then got let off and to be honest with you this is not hard to believe because it wouldn't be haram to do that you know it's okay to save your life even if you don't believe in something to say that you believe in it so and later on he must have just been embarrassed and not owned up to it but the hamburlies after him are the ones that big him up and turn him into this glorified hero that oh imam ahmed was the father of allah and he strives and he does this and does that and yeah and the reason i'm mentioning

[1:08:19] this is because how our discourse is so dominated today without even realizing like we say things we don't know the history behind them you know and so what we say today oh is the quran created even many ash hadi's don't realize that actually their books say it is created they just use a different word and these guys have never thought about it remember i told you that doctor um

[1:08:55] uh right dr abdullah ali from zaytuna he reached out to me uh last year saying that look mufti you know i heard you say this and this is wrong don't say this and they never say the quran is created i said to him sure they do they just you know i think you need to check re-read the text and he said well i've read it a hundred times and all this and he went back and forth and then i showed him i said well you've clearly read this part haven't you and he said yeah and i said well what do you think that means

[1:09:34] when it says that the kalamu that kalam that love thee is mahdith that the worded kalam of allah which is the quran the arabic quran is it is actually invented and generated and then he just went ah and the penny dropped and this happens with many ashadis they don't know but the actual books do teach you that the arabic quran is a created quran but the original message with god was an unworded message

[1:10:12] it did not contain words it was like a sheer frequency which once it enters this realm becomes created in words i hope that makes uh make sense right all right when is the video on dr musti abdul rahman sab coming yeah i'm gonna take a look at that

[1:10:42] painting right so read all the super chats let's take a look at some of the super chats people um uh explain jesus story in the quran berserk you're doing it how does allah say he was raised up can you explain and ya judge or mata george in detail now i've got videos on these in great detail you know the jesus one i must have about four or five detailed clips including some of them as debates just watch them i go through it in immense detail watch my refutation of uh sheikh shah deal masari

## Cite

Mufti Abu Layth Archive, segment --PntsaR8ck/s/18. https://muftiabulayth.org/r/--pntsar8ck/s/18/

Not a fatwa: these answers were given to specific people at specific times. Ask a qualified scholar about your own situation.